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Davaar
26th Apr 2009, 10:55
One is very ignorant of so much.

Have been inspecting squalid living accommodation, a small room, void of furniture. There is a large sheet of foam rubber that serves as a bed, so it appears. For the rest, it is strewn with used cigarette butts, small denomination coins (evidence of pan-handling by resident?), one or two sauce pans, one or two cigarette lighters, and MANY SHEETS of metal foil, a foot or so square, some hypodermics, and much grottiness. There is something of a smell. "Aha!", say the four polizei to whom I have shown photographs of the scene, "Drug paraphernalia!"

Question: What are the metal-foil sheets used for?

Flying Lawyer
26th Apr 2009, 11:04
For 'Chasing the Dragon'

Heroin abusers place heroin on metal foil, heat it from below with a cigarette lighter and then inhale the smoke.
The chasing refers to keeping the liquid moving to prevent it from merging into a large single mass which would 'waste' some of the fumes.

The expression originates from Hong Kong.


FL

tony draper
26th Apr 2009, 11:05
I believe they deposit the fairy dust upon the foil and heat it up with the ciggy lighter from below,this is then sniffed or mixed with water and thence into a hyperdermic of course one has no personal experience of this Mr Davaar but have gleaned it from watching such progs as the Telly Tubbies and such.
:uhoh:

BOFH
26th Apr 2009, 11:06
'Chasing the dragon', as it's known.

Terribly good fun, that's why they do it.

BOFH

Load Toad
26th Apr 2009, 11:07
As there are needles also it is likely heroin but you can also smoke meth (ice, bing etc) off tin foil. H would leave grotty brown residues on the foil but meth very little. Someone doing ice may be doing H as well of course. Ice tends to have something of a chemical burning plastic type smell.

If they were injecting H then fag filters used to filter the stuff might be lying around, a spoon or such for heating and mixing...

Flying Lawyer
26th Apr 2009, 11:29
BOFH Terribly good fun
Is it?
I assume it must be at that moment; I don't know.

However, what I do know from long professional experience is that the so-called 'fun' of heroin abuse ruins many lives, and that it certainly isn't fun for the victims of the crimes heroin abusers commit to finance their expensive habit.

FL

west lakes
26th Apr 2009, 11:37
We often find said items in and around substations in certain parts of our patch, more worrying is they are often found in the woods surrounding our offices/depot, being used during break time from the college next door! Also found are plastic bottles with straws (not for drinking through) which, I understand is an alternative means of use.

flash8
26th Apr 2009, 11:40
Terribly good fun, that's why they do it.

With all due respect that remark is rather unfortunate. Drugs destroy many many lives, often young and vulnerable. As for "fun" I'd expect many of them to have lost insight into the terrible predicament they place themselves in, and any so called "fun" is illusory at best, and of course, deadly at worse.

Storminnorm
26th Apr 2009, 11:55
I'll send you my EX- daughter in laws mobile No, she's an
absolute expert on all that stuff!!!!
Son divorced her some 5 years ago.
They sold the former marital dwelling place for about £400 k.
Split the resulting proceeds fifty-fifty. About £100k each.
She's now flat broke and lives in a caravan with a series of
"Boyfriends". Sad story.
That's what drugs can do for you.

Just thought, it's no use giving you the mobile No, it changes
every week anyhow. It's something druggies seem to do on
a regular basis.

Davaar
26th Apr 2009, 11:55
Thanks to all. I am very grateful for this help. What does the raw material look like? That is, what is it, the heroin presumably, they put on the metal foil pre-heating?

P.S. Does any of this have any link with "crack cocaine", which is just words to me. I recall a few years ago the singer Ricky Nelson came to a sad end in his DC3, I think it was. The tale was that he or his entourage were engaged in some activity like the heating over an open flame but things got out of hand, the fire spread, and the aircaft crashed.

Presumably the inhalation of the drug leads to exhilaration which leads to diminished caution and exactly the risk of fire that in Nelson's case went beyond risk to the next stage, reality.

The room described above is the only occupied part of an abandoned property from which all utilities have been cut off for the past several months. There is no fire-alarm.

I am not looking to a conviction of any sort, but to the balance of probabilities in a civil matter. From what you tell me, in the absence of any other explanation, and even if there were any other explanation, the facts are prima facie evidence of the production of a "controlled substance" under The Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, 1996,(of Canada) which at s.2 defines "produce" to include "... using ... any means of altering the ... physical properties of [a substance included in any of Schedules I to IV]."

The conditions as they exist suggest at the very least a high fire-risk.

Juud
26th Apr 2009, 12:14
Davaar, if you type the word ´heroin´ into Google and then click on the ´images´ link in the top left corner, you get a lot of pictures of the stuff in its various manifestations.

How come the interest?

west lakes
26th Apr 2009, 12:15
Davaar

This may be of some use: -

Street Drug Identification (http://www.ocso.com/CrimePrevention/StreetDrugIdentification/tabid/88/Default.aspx)

found it years ago whilst "researching" the area prior to a holiday

srobarts
26th Apr 2009, 12:24
When our eldest started at Secondary school, the local constabulary ran a parents education session on what to look for complete with examples of drug paraphernalia. Fortunately (afaik) they never indulged and most use of what I had learned was when we bought some land from our neighbours. The ground beside the fence to the local recreation ground had several discarded items whihc I was able to recognise as bongs. Land was so overgrown neighbours knew nothing about it.

Storminnorm
26th Apr 2009, 12:25
Davaar, I really think that you should leave this topic alone.
Don't, FFS, get TOO involved in the subject, Please.

I can tell you from my experience with people that I have
known that it is very easy to get too involved, very quickly.
Please leave it alone. For your own sake.

Davaar
26th Apr 2009, 12:44
Thank you for the caution, Stormin. I appreciate the kindly thought. Rest assured, the only "drugs" of this sort I have ever taken were forty years ago in hospital, pre- and post-surgery, under rigid prescription and control. Every blue moon I have a cigar.

My present interest is professional. The situation exists as described. It is an immediate and serious problem to a client who has inherited responsibilities for the property. The police say it is a civil matter. They and other authorities offer sympathy but no help.

It crosses my mind, Stormin, that you may be gently hinting at physical risks to me and others from the putative user or his suppliers. That thought has occurred to me too. I do not much like it, but that too is a fact.

Load Toad
26th Apr 2009, 13:16
Crack cocaine is smoked usually out of a small pipe type device though you could do it off tin foil. It gives a higher, faster hit than normal charlie and it's cheaper. It tends to be more 'addictive' because of those reasons. Of course drugs (legal or illegal) are 'fun' or give a pleasant feeling - if they didn't - no one would bother doing them.

It's pointless going into legal versus illegal drugs and drug policy on PPRune so I won't bother trying - there is a search function if anyone is interested dragging themselves through the previous threads...

An issue with any drug, legal or illegal, is that they can diminish the sense of responsibility - which often leads to 'trouble'.

parabellum
26th Apr 2009, 13:41
Of course drugs (legal or illegal) are 'fun' or give a pleasant feeling - if they didn't - no one would bother doing them.



'Fun' for the user, perhaps, the irresponsible, couldn't give a sh1t for anyone else, user, until it kills them or renders them useless and unable to integrate with or be of any use to society but still draining vital resources from the health service, but not much 'fun' for the people the user effects and the people, often family, who have to suffer the consequences and try to pick up the bits that are left. Drugs are not 'fun', some people derive some pleasure from drugs for a limited time, that's all.

Load Toad
26th Apr 2009, 14:37
I've done various drugs for many years with very little negative effect on family and friends (if any) - legal and illegal drugs that is. I reckon the biggest negative effect personally I've had is occaisionaly in my stupid youth getting absolutely wrecked on alcohol.

I'd suggest parabellum you are talking of your experiences with people very much in the depths of heavy substance abuse. Which is a bit like saying that people that can't handle alcohol supply the reason to ban alcohol and to ban everybody from ever having any alcohol at all ever.

This is why it is pointless talking about drugs on PPrune - most people on here are only happy with 'legal' drugs because they like authority figures dictating what they can and can not do. Also there is a lot of ignorance and your opinions of 'drug' use are based upon the extreme cases that make it into the Daily Outrage or are your direct or indirect experiences of poverty and crime.

The 'Drug War' is the cause of most of the bad experiences you have had to face - just as prohibition was in the USA which incidentaly we are still paying for with regard to organised crime.

But 'drugs' are nasty and evil and filthy and people that do them are terrible and cause disease and crime aren't they. Me for instance.

Davaar
26th Apr 2009, 16:05
I am sometimes guilty myself of thread drift but this time I ask everyone to keep narrowly to the point. Policy on drugs, their good effects or bad effects, how much worse alcohol may be, or murder induced by over-indulgence in Twinkies, are all good for another time, to be sure, but for me, not now. I need guidance limited but important in a stated situation.

The neighbourhood pharmacist hoods her eyes and denies all knowledge of street drugs. Street drugs? Really?

Others say, "everybody knows"; but I do not know.

My search begins with a room "furnished" with a foam rubber sheet, scraps of bedcovers, many rags, many sheets of metal foil, a few cigarette lighters, some hypodermics, cigarette butts that appear to have "gone out" on the carpet where they landed, low denomination coins, and one or two cooking utensils; nothing else. I have never before been in a room furnished like that. The metal foil must be there for a reason.

It all adds up, I am told and do believe, to a drug "production" scene. The police and others say there is “no doubt about it”, but all find a good reason to be busy elsewhere. This is just a “civil matter”; so I need to know something of the mechanics involved, and I am grateful to contributors for help in just that.

Long ago an English judge said that an auditor is a watchdog, not a bloodhound. That captures my involvement here. I am not a prosecutor, but I do need to know whether the scene as described suggests prima facie “production” in terms of the statute. I need no more and I think it does.

I gather from Google that “charlie” means cocaine. That is different from heroin, right? What does “charlie” look like in its “pre-cracked” form? Does “cracking” consist in heating it over metal foil? Is that the same process with heroin? Which of them is “fairy dust”?

tony draper
26th Apr 2009, 17:06
Bro Draper had cause to visit the local Chemist(Pharmacist)yesterday to get a prescription filled,, he was told to come back later as the shop being very small was full of chaps and chapesses getting their morning legal dose of Methadone,that's a drug pushed by the government.
Oh my poor country what has become of you.:(

ArthurR
26th Apr 2009, 17:14
Davaar, Coke can come as a crystal (whitish to clear) depending on the purity, or as a white powder, which usually has been cut with some other substance, such as baby milk powder..

Rainboe
26th Apr 2009, 17:15
I believe cocaine is called 'Columbian Marching Powder'. I have no idea why, but in the Harold Robbins book 'The Pirate', extensive descriptions take place of how it is applied. It is allegedly a white powder. For some reason, expensive denomination banknotes are used in application, and the result destroys one's nasal septum. I read that one of the Rolling Stones discovered that when he closed his eyes after using cocaine, he could see out of his nostrils! It's all very bizarre to me. I'm sure I wouldn't like it if I even tried it, which I have no intention of doing. Things like 'crack' and 'crystal meth' are completely unknown.

I heard of 'spliffs'once. What the hell are 'bongs'?

ArthurR
26th Apr 2009, 17:19
Rainboe, try looking here

Green Heaven - Headshop mit Bongs Drehblättchen Pfeifen Grindern Blunts Acrylbongs und vielem weiteren Raucherzubeh (http://www.green-heaven.de/Headshop:::1.html)

Some are quite decorative, far to good too use, not that I would know, that is. :E

Storminnorm
26th Apr 2009, 17:42
As previously described, the foil is for either "Chasing the Dragon"
which means heating heroin and breathing in the smoke, or could
also be used to smoke cocaine.
The sort of place that you describe is typical of the sort of stuff
that is normally found in a drug 'den' where the poor old addicts
go to get a 'fix'.
Crack cocaine is usually smoked by breathing the fumes from a
'rock' of cocaine, normally made, I believe, by heating cocaine
in something like a microwave oven until it forms a "rock" of
the stuff.
The thing is then smoked using a "pipe" made up from a bottle
and straw, or similar materials, and a bowl of foil for the 'rock'
to sit in whilst it is heated.
I'm surprised that anyone survives this sort of activity at all.
Quite a few don't.
What you described as being in the room is typical of that sort of
activity.
When they're out of their heads, they crash out on the mattress.
I suppose they think it's just a way to survive from day to day.
It totally ruins their lives. And it doesn't do a lot for the other
people involved with them. eg Family. Who quite often don't
realise WTF is going on until it is too late to influence things.
My ex- DIL was a totally convincing cheat and liar.
We eventually discovered that the only way to tell if she was
LYING was to see if her lips were moving. If they were she was!!!
It's a horrible thing to get mixed up with. F*cks people up! Totally.
Hope this wandering mess helps you.

bnt
26th Apr 2009, 17:43
I'm guessing you haven't seen Trainspotting, then? Addicts of opiates will do anything to get their fix, and woe betide anyone who gets in their way, physically or otherwise. Going Cold Turkey is not pretty, even in the movies:

uYmYa8m74Ro

It's hardly a new problem, either: Samuel Taylor Coleridge was on Laudanum for half his life, which is what his poem Kubla Khan (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/stc/Coleridge/poems/Kubla_Khan.html) is at least partly about (some say):
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

Sprogget
26th Apr 2009, 18:20
I believe amongst the wider population, half of Parliament were on laudunum at one time. ceryainly Disraeli had a habit. Of course, lettuce is a well known soporific since it contains Laudunum.

As for modern drugs, for me the scourge is Cocaine. I can spot a coke fiend miles away. They have the coke swagger, it always shows. Overconfidence, braggadocio, all of that rubbish. Very dangerous too is cocaine, can stop the heart in a thrice & on top of all that, if you're stupid enough to take it, I guess you're happy enough to sniff baking powder, custard, talc, rat poison, who knows what up your nose.

Conversely I never saw a fight break out amongst those taking marijuana or ecstasy, quite the opposite. Ecstasy leads to an outbreal of empathy & feelings of warmth towards your fellow man, but once again, do you know what you're swallowing? Afaik, drug dealers don't do receipts or guarantees.

What kills week in week out are tobacco & alcohol and we legalise these! We live in a crazy old world. As others have said, Heroin is pure life ending stuff. Get into that, you may as well throw yourself in the river, save the NHS, Police & the courts the effort.

Mac the Knife
26th Apr 2009, 18:56
"It all adds up, I am told and do believe, to a drug "production" scene."

To answer your question, consumption undoubtedly, production no.

:ok:

BOFH
26th Apr 2009, 19:15
Flying Lawyer

I think it very unwise to land oneself in an argument you're always going to lose, so it's with considerable apprehension that I respond, because I will lose this one.

People take drugs because they make them feel good. I can perfectly understand that - I've just lit a cigarette. The sun's not over the yardarm so I'll deny myself a Campari and soda until later. I've just ground some coffee, and I'm looking forward to that with relish.

Around this nation, thousands of people at this very moment are cooking up, punching holes in miniature spirits bottles and stuffing them with steel wool, or rolling a spliff. Their pleasures will be more intense than mine, and they feel that they need them. This is despite the fact that I probably have more to worry about than them; my job could be under threat; they don't have a job to lose. Mrs BOFH is annoyed with me; their relationships are fleeting and meaningless. My investments reward me with a pitiful return; they have none. I worry about 2030; they worry about the next time that they can get stoned.

The media have wrought a series of myths with regard to heroin addiction. If you read The Spectator or The Times, you'll have seen articles from a doctor whose nom de plume is Theodore Dalrymple. In Junk Medicine he presents a compelling argument that the effects of withdrawal are, to us, sitting in our studies in Chelsea or Chiswick, overblown. Having seen it myself, I subscribe to this theory.

Please forgive me if my earlier comment seemed frivolous. As a middle-aged, middle class man I have a vested interest in the safety of my family and I don't want them being attacked by drug-crazed maniacs. As I perceive it, they are under far more threat from someone under the influence of alcohol than any other recreational drug.

BOFH

gingernut
26th Apr 2009, 20:04
Quote:
Terribly good fun
Is it?
I assume it must be at that moment; I don't know.

However, what I do know from long professional experience is that the so-called 'fun' of heroin abuse ruins many lives, and that it certainly isn't fun for the victims of the crimes heroin abusers commit to finance their expensive habit.


No argument that it does wreck lives, but, so my clients tell me,the feeling one gets from mainlining equates to a continous orgasm. And their lives are otherwise very shitty.


Interesting point from MrD about the chemist shop, but are said users any "worse" than Mr Pie eater smoker collecting his statins and blood pressure drugs.

Sounds a good scheme, you'd rob your neighbours for the next fix, (who, by the way, aren't average ppruner's).

'Bout time we all woke up. Including the judiciary.

Sprogget
26th Apr 2009, 20:17
I took my daughter for a play in the park this morning. On the way in, I was stopped by a 11 or 12 year old boy, talking on his mobile. He'd seen someone flat out in the grass unonscious & took a bit of a fright and dialled 999. The lad was struggling to communicate meaningfully with the 999 operator, so asked me to take over the conversation.

No problem, especially as I could see the prostrate fellow was snoring loudly & clutching a bottle of champagne! I declined the operators exhortation to put my ear to the frankly, srofulous guys mouth to listen for breathing, although I did fleetingly consider giving him a kick in the nuts as a smelling salts substitute, but discounted the idea in short order. After all, he had his spot booked on the ambulance - I might have had to wait for another if that hadn't gone my way.

Any old way, the ambulance turned up before long & I explained the situation to the green clad angels of mercy before being on my way.

Two things I learnt from this: Not all young lads are tearaways, this kid was sufficiently concerned if inexperienced, to do something about what he assessed as a guy in danger & secondly, the roll of the ambulance man's eyed spoke volumes about what they have to deal with every day.

Btw, this was at about 10am, I mean talk about not over the yardarm sheesh! I'm just about to pour a glass, so I don't sit in judgement, but what a shame to be falling down drunk before lunch. Oh I also had to put up with mini sprog shouting NEE NAW for about the next five hours.:ugh:

gingernut
26th Apr 2009, 20:33
The foil's probably used for either vapourising the stuff (freebasing) or more likely, in the prescence of needles, liquifying heroin for injection.


Then again, he could have been cooking a chicken 'cos his Aunty is coming for tea.

Just to clarify an earlier point about methadone-

methadone doesn't give you the same hit of heroin, it just helps you stop feeling crap on withdrawal. It's the equivalent of eating some dry toast when hungry- satisfies the hunger but not quite the same as a Mars Bar.

Davaar
26th Apr 2009, 20:39
To answer your question, consumption undoubtedly, production no.


Mac, that was my initial view as well.

To my surprise Section 2 of the Act is quite broad. It states in part:

"'produce' means, in respect of a substance included in any of Schedules I to IV, to obtain the substance by any means or process including (a) manufacturing, synthesizing or using any means of altering the chemical or physical properties of the substabce .....".

If one starts with a powder or solid, and by heating it transforms it into a gas or a water-soluble liquid, or even merely dissolves it in water if that can be done without heating, then that seems to me to alter its "physical properties".

Please will you give that a look?

G-CPTN
26th Apr 2009, 23:08
the feeling one gets from mainlining equates to a continuous orgasm.
I would concur - having had the experience of intra-venous morphine on self-demand after a major surgical operation (thoracotamy).
Sheer heaven . . .


Apart from that (and subsequent prescription drugs to cope with residual chronic pain) I've never taken drugs - except:-

When my children started secondary school we were invited to attend 'drug awareness' classes (in 1987). These didn't touch on cannabis or anything such as LSD or 'E', but dealt only with . . . alcohol.
Such was the extent of alcohol abuse among pupils that they were seeking to limit accessibility within the home.
When I asked my son if he knew anyone who took drugs, his reply was to point out that his parents drank coffee and alcohol.
I never found out anything about the other substances (and, as far as I am aware, my children never indulged).