Raising training costs

[p-neo]

Hi guys, just registered on the forum and was hoping to get some advice with training costs. I am in the latter stages of assessment for FlyBe's part-sponsored MPL programme with FTE, however I have no idea how I am going to get a hold of the 56,000 pounds I must raise for training! As far as I am aware any bank loans greater than 25,000 must be secured against a property (I don't own my own house) and Career Development Loans only go as high as 8,000. Does anyone know of any financial institutions loaning greater amounts to those without a property to mortgage, or of any training grants or bursaries or anything like that? Any helpful advice at all would be greatly appreciated! Cheers

[MartinCh]

:ugh: abcdefjklmnopqrstuvxyz

[quant]

You could always get a job rather than taking out a loan? :eek:

[tropicalfridge]

You could try not doing it? No jobs = no loans. Go modular and do it as you can afford it.

[EK4457]

p-neo

Welcome to PPRUNE.

The reason you have got the replies you have must be pretty obvious. Or at least I hope it is!?

To directly answer your question; no. You will not get anything like £56k unsecured. Google 'credit crunch'.

To be honest, you would have struggled 5 years ago. Now even £25k will be difficult to get hold of without security.

There are no grants, bursaries, student loans or anything to help you in your situation. You, like everybody else now, have to have rich parents or work hard.

There are plenty of posts on this forum about how the lack of credit is going to decimate the integrated schools. One in particular is in serous trouble. They simply cannot survive long term without cadets (potentially like you) taking out silly loans. HSBC have stopped it. BBVA MIGHT look at you if your parents have a big house with lots (and I mean lots) of equity. But then your parents would have to be rich AND mentally derranged.

I assume the £56k you need includes 18 months of living expenses with no income too? Even in Jerez?

Sorry I can't be of more help, but you are asking to borrow a huge amount of money, unsecured, during the worst recession since WWII. Bloody silly if you think about it.

If you really wan't to be a pilot, read the above post about going modular.

EK

[Option C]

you are asking to borrow a huge amount of money, unsecured, during the worst recession since WWII. Bloody silly if you think about it.

True :D

If you really wan't to be a pilot, read the above post about going modular.
Very true. This is the way to do it now, I wouldn't even consider going Integrated.

[Donalk]

Any helpful advice at all would be greatly appreciated! Cheers

Then in that spirit here goes - get a job and work your ass off to save as much money as possible. Go modular and have the satisfaction of not being in debt after each stage. Then when you achieve the required license and ratings you will be in a good position to get a flying job whilst still having a decent quality of life without an enormous debt burden around your neck.

It may take several years, and I am making the assumption that you are still quite young, but if it is what you really want then it will be worth the sacrifice.

Barring lottery wins or wealthy dowager aunts this is really the only option for you.

I do wish you the very best of luck however and hope you will heed the advice offered in these posts.

[Pilot_x2009]

P-neo,

I agree with EK's thought process and think you should consider other ways to fund your training. It took me 8years to save for all my training including Type Rating! I'm starting my CPL ME next week which should be completed within 5 weeks (weather depending!) then im back off to work again. I decided to do My IR part time for the first half then take time off for the last half running upto the Skill test just to get into the flow if things! I chose to do it this way cause i found it less expensive in the long run also leaving me with no Debts and very little loss of earnings plus as the market will be slow to recover for recruiting Low hour trained pilots i saw there was no harm in streching out my training till April next year.

The best part of this is should i be lucky enough to land my self a Airline job atleast i'll have no debts, making it that more fullfilling! Also just like any normal person (even tho we as pilots choose the most expensive profession to train for!) i would like to buy my own property and upgrade to a decent car to go with my new career.

I think you should also consider your longterm goals aswell after your training because just imagine having to pay large amounts of loans back, anything in the region of £300-£1500 per month from a small salary!

From my understanding and what i know working for an airline at the moment most Low hour First officers start on around £24,000 upwards! This will only leave you about £1,400 per month after tax! then you have to pay your debts and living costs (unless with parents).

One other thing! if your ever wanting to buy your own property you'll find it very difficult to get a morgage for the duration of your exsisting loans.

Sorry to bore you with these facts but just wanted to give you a different insight into an alternative solution. But the choice is yours and you should do what feels right for you. It's hard enough for most of us to raise the money and get through the training! but to suffer afterwards for a job that is driven by passion over financial sense is something that needs to be looked at carefully & wisely!

I hope all works out for you & all the best!

Pilot_x2009 :)

[EK4457]

Not to labour the point too much, but if you look at posts by A330ETOPS, he has very kindly laid his finances bare for all to see.

He went to Jerez and borrowed the lot with truly shocking financial consequences.

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/370548-loan-repayments-2.html

[ComeToLife]

Typical Pprune, so negative. Sometimes I wonder why half you guys are in the industry as all you seem to do is put others down or tell them they are stupid.

As for modular vs intergrated. Well apart from a difference in cost overall I struggled to agree with what most of you say.

Perhaps this guy gets accepted with Flybe - So for a start he is guarenteed a job. I think Flybe pay £25,000 a year for the first year which isn't too bad.

I think you would probably pay off all your debt after about 10 years and in the mean time you are enjoying the job you've always wanted to do.

The advice most of you offer is modular. I.e. work for 10 years in a job you don't want to be doing, while trying to squeeze in some hours here and there in a country that doesn't guarentee good flying conditions.

But what is the difference between working hard for 10 years to try and save some money to gain all your licences versus being accetped on an airline sponsored course which means you are qualified in a short time and would have no debt after 10 years. Seems to me both paths lead to the same outcome except the MPL offers a job, modular doesn't.

Perhaps after 10 years of hard work, the guy has saved £20,000 of his own money. Do you suggest he still goes modular or does the intergrated course become more attractive as not as much money needs to be loaned?

[INNflight]

as all you seem to do is put others down or tell them they are stupid.

Because, in all honesty......trying to borrow 60k from any institution in those days to get a license that only a bunch of airlines will accept.....welllllll... not a very sane thought!

Seems to me both paths lead to the same outcome except the MPL offers a job, modular doesn't.

RIIIIGHT.....unless of course he looses his job/his medical/his wife/... ETC and THEN sits on a big chunk of debt with a MPL (again...that MOST other airlines don't even care to accept!!!)

:ugh:

[ComeToLife]

RIIIIGHT.....unless of course he looses his job/his medical/his wife/... ETC and THEN sits on a big chunk of debt with a MPL (that MOST other airlines don't even care to accept!!!)

Smart thought

Risks are there to be taken. The likelyhood is that he would have a safe job for many years as BE appear in good shape.

Also, if the MPL doesn't work out throughout your training, I think I read that FTE continue your training as if you were a standard pupil (at no extra cost) and you will graduate with an ATPL.

[Pilot_x2009]

I think it a personal choice how you want to progress your training and how you want to fund it!

ComeToLife - I agree with what you say that an intergrated cadet may look more appealing to airlines but how many of them actualy end up getting jobs straight away compared to the intake of students from these big FTOs! Also what happens to those afterwards that have about £70,000 loans secured on their homes that dont get Airline Jobs! They still have to find a job they dont want to be in in order start paying the loan back at some point. Also mate just to defend the others no one is calling any body 'Stupid' in this Topic its more about being relistic and bringing the truth to real life situation! Where not all lucky enough to come from well of parents that can afford to fund our training as some guys out there. so it's not really a fair comment you made but i do see you point on the other aspects.

In my opinion id rather start an airline career with no debt! because i can say some of the guys that i know that work in the Airline i'm at, have come out of places like Oxford/CTC etc with Large Debts and are glad to be flying but are not happy becuse of the debts in fear for loosing thier jobs incase the Airline makes more cut backs. some of these guys are only 21-25 years old and they have a long way ahead of them paying back the loans. But each to their own! and it has to be a personal choice.

One way or another we're all doing this to acheive the same goal! :)

[tropicalfridge]

Regarding the MPL, a wise man once said, "Never go first". And the fact that this guy can't get the enormous amount of credit he is after speaks volumes. The banks have learned from there mistakes and won't lend to people who stand a poor chance of being able to pay it back. And on a separate issue, people shouldn't be encouraging 20 year olds to borrow money which will leave them in debt for years when the industry is on its knees. "Wait" is the best advice, things will be better in time, I hope.

[EK4457]

Cometolife - welcome to PPRUNE yourself!

You seem to have a very strong view for somone who has just joined and made their first post............

10 years to save for/do modular? Nah. Do a bit of research. Three with a bit of commitment. No probs.

Simple finances:

£60k loan will vary but will not be less than £800 per month. Probably more. A flyBE S/O will earn roughly £1300 per month after deductions.

Can you afford rent/mortgage, bills, food, run a car and have a life on £500 per month? You get more on benefits.

Buying a house, getting married, having kids, going on holiday, replacing your banger; forget it for 5-10 years.

That is assuming best case scenario- getting the job which you think is guaranteed. If you think cadets have never failed to get a permanent job after their course then do some research. CTC would be a good start.

These are real finances. Real facts. Read the posts of real people who can't get real jobs. Who can't pay back real loans.

This is not the random bout of spontaneous negativity which you hope/think. I'm afrid it's just the reality.

Make the best choice for yourself.

EK.

[ComeToLife]

10 years to save for/do modular? Nah. Do a bit of research. Three with a bit of commitment. No probs.

If anyone could do that over 3 years with no problems then I don't think they'd want to leave their current job! Your still talking about £40,000 in all likelyhood to go modular. You've also got to tie that in with work commitments and other distractions.

I will never say intergrated is the way to go, nor will I say modular is. Intergrated just seems to get a lot of criticism on here and I think it is a bit over the top.

[disco87]

Perhaps intergrated suits people more, if you have the money for it, or even the majority, why not do it that way. Not now but in 1/1.5 years there may not be anything wrong with an intergrated course.

[Donalk]

Cometolife
No one said the OP was stupid - he asked for advice and opinion and he is getting exactly that in a cordial ad professional manner.

Just because you disagree with the advice given does not entitle you to a 'toys out of the pram' episode. It demeans the OP and dilutes the efficacy of this discourse.

Feel free to advance an opposing view and be prepared to debate your rationale but otherwise let P-neo get the benefit of the advice which he requested in the first place.

Risks are there to be taken-

Perhaps that is true in certain circumstances but in the prevailing economic climate it might be a better strategy to be 'risk averse' - not an unwelcome quality either in a pilot I might add.

[ComeToLife]

I appreciate what you are saying Donalk, however you must admit that there is a general feeling around Pprune that intergrated courses are pointless and offer very little hope for budding pilots.

Perhaps in an ideal world modular is the way to go. It is cheaper and you will run up very little debt. Don't forget however that during the years you spend working as much as possible in a low paid job to gain the finance required, you have to make time for your training and I cannot for one minute believe anyone would give a up on a social life to try and aid their goal.

So on the days you manage to get some hours in, you have had to travel 1 hour in each direction to the airfield, not exactly the best thing to be doing with the current fuel climate. Your rent was also due and you need to get some food in. Ancillary costs which all add up and count towards the total cost of your training in my opinion. So actual flight training costs (assuming you pass everything first time) might come to approximately £40,000. If you were to do this over 7-10 years I bet you would spend a hell of a lot more than that as you strive to realise your ambition.

Lets then say that you gain all your licences and you're ready to go. The market is saturated with pilots who've been flying for years and looking for jobs. There are also cadets from intergrated courses who have agreements with certain airlines. Who is the least likely to get a job?

[redsnail]

Come to life,

There is nothing wrong with integrated flight training. There is something wrong with acquiring an enormous amount of debt just to be able to do said course. A big debt to service means a lack of flexibility of jobs after you finish.

In case you haven't noticed, credit isn't so easily acquired. Perhaps instead of calling it credit (which sounds nice and fluffy) we should call it debt.

[ComeToLife]

I suspect you're a troll.

No sir. I'm most definately a human being.

You came on here asking how to raise a lot of money.
You didn't get the answers you wanted to hear and so you turn on the very people who bothered to reply to your post.

I am not the OP, nor have i turned on anyone. I have merely been offering a different perspective on the topic.

[ComeToLife]

P-neo

Please see this link and especially look out for Clanger32's posts. Very informative.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/369038-how-long-takes-modular-way.html

[redsnail]

Come to Life,

I apologise for that misunderstanding. I have modified my post.

BTW, I am not a sir. ;)

I still believe that getting into massive amounts of debt for a full time course is foolish.

I did it all "part time". Looked for work with no debt other than a mortgage which was paid for by renting out property. With hindsight I would have done some training differently, I still would have done it part time though - simply because I did not have the $50,000 required. I wouldn't have changed the career though. :ok:

[ComeToLife]

Come to Life,
I apologise for that misunderstanding. I have modified my post.
BTW, I am not a sir.
Appreciated and understood!:ok:
I still believe that getting into massive amounts of debt for a full time course is foolish.
I did it all "part time". Looked for work with no debt other than a mortgage which was paid for by renting out property. With hindsight I would have done some training differently, I still would have done it part time though - simply because I did not have the $50,000 required. I wouldn't have changed the career though.
I couldn't agree more, yet there are plenty of pilots out there who have went the intergrated route, so surely there are a few success stories out there!?

[dartagnan]

yes, there are a few success stories out there, kind of : " I know a friend of a friend, who knows a friend of a friend, who is at BA "....

I know a guy who win the lottery, saw this in the news...."want be a millionar?"

this doesn't mean you have to borrow money. Oh..., and anyway, no one is going to give you money for a flight training kiddo, so no meed to spend too much time here how to explain you how to get easy money and file bankrupt later(banks have been fooled, not twice:E).

You can still print money from your color laser printer, but be advised that the printer lets an invisible mark somewhere so they can one day track you and send you to jail.

[Donalk]

Quote - I couldn't agree more, yet there are plenty of pilots out there who have went the intergrated route, so surely there are a few success stories out there!?

I suspect you are more than correct in the above.

If an aspirant has the funds in place and the source of those funds is unlikely to present an overwhelming burden upon commencement of their first flying position, then the choice is simply integrated vs modular. I imagine most would choose the former.

However, irrespective of the route chosen we cannot escape the fact that credit is incredibly difficult to secure at present even for those with collateral to offer. Thus, securing credit without the necessary collateral is likely to prove nigh impossible

Moreover the earnings potential of newly minted pilots is not at a level which can sustain debt servicing whilst also making provision for an adequate lifestyle.

The buy now pay later mindset which prevailed for so long must now end with people accepting responsibility for their actions.

For many years people have been working day jobs whilst paying for and attending night school studying medicine, engineering, law etc, but for some reason pilots feel the need to accelerate the process. Some of this is due to clever marketing by FTO's but the mindset referred to above still prevails.

[ComeToLife]

A good post Donalk. I would mention however that it is probably (this is going to sound completely mad) easier to hand over a large lump sum of money and have your training on a plate for you, rather than to spend £160 per hour (at some UK airports) to get an hours worth of training rather than spend £30 and go for a night out with your mates or to go see your footall team.

I hope that makes sense!