More DEC's for EK

[jarops]

I just heard news that EK is about to hire 8 DEC's even there are eligible pilots waiting their upgrade. I think this is disaster, why do we have to obey all the rules in our FOM, and management just overruling us all the time. Should there be time to do something about this. Just so frustrated!!!:ugh:

[linedriva]

Maybe someone needs to ask that at one of the various meetings going on at the moment.

That is a sure fire way to boost morale!!!

[Wiley]

It's quite obvious why they're needed... to replace as quickly as possible all those who've 'resigned' lately.

[411A]

If those frustrated First Officers would bother to look at the subject objectively, they would find that hiring DEC's is more cost-effective for the company....especially, if the DEC is already current on type.

However...from some of the posts here it does indeed seem that EK management is far too busy putting out daily fires rather than doing some longer term planning.

[my salami]

Shame on you 411A! FYI the DEC's are given a "short"transition anyway even if current on type.The cost saving for the company is minimum.
Oh wait a minute,maybe some of your buddies are coming and you'r trying to justify this... :mad:

[Bin Liner]

Jar ops,
What are your sources. I have a vested interest in this and my research indicates its not the case.

[daviddea]

Did ya ever think the company might think the FOs are not quite ready for upgrade?

[Bin Liner]

Take cover....Incoming

[Touch'n'oops]

Bin Liner... haha...

I too would like to find the facts. Any names? At least I can do a proper job at shooting myself in the foot at the EK interview. If it is true I would like to bring that up in the interview and wouldn't care about ruining my chances, because I wouldn't join if this was the case. I think that EK needs to get the message that this will have an impact on their future recruitment drives.

Something fun about sending ones self to the slaughter... haha... Don't care!!!

[fatbus]

EK could care less how you feel about DEC's. If you cant deal with them dont waste your time or put you family through hell just becauce you wanted to fly a big plane.

Also you might want to have a read of the latest sackings for a number of reasons. You bring that attitude you might find yourself packing your bags at short notice.

[segajet]

I have one observation and one question relating to the DEC debate. Firstly Emirates have been taking DEC's since the days of the B727, so why would anybody be suprised by the continuation of the policy. Secondly, isn't a transition course much shorter than a full first officer upgrade to captain.

[mensaboy]

Dare I say that the B727 days were during the intial start up of a small and not terribly desirable airline. It is true that DEC's have periodically been hired in small numbers, with no affect on upgrades of qualified F/O's until about 2004. Every since then, EK has always had suitable and qualified F/O's able to upgrade, and the company even admitted the policy was based on money/costs. Dumb but true.

Nowadays, every single pilot on the planet who is considering EK, should realize that the DEC policy will certainly make their years at EK less enjoyable.

In answer to your question, yes the DEC course takes less time and costs the company less money in the short term, as compared to upgrading an F/O. But subsequents costs increase because we get a corresponding decrease in the best F/O's applying and DEC's have a higher rate of issues with respect to flight safety and personal issues. The long term affects cannot even be measured.

Even if you disagree with me, it is impossible to deny that the DEC policy is in direct contradiction to the written policy in our FOM. So why the deception? Because EK thinks pilots are stupid and won't comprehend the negatives until they pack up their families and move here......by then it is too late.

I personally know 3 pilots who have been sacked in the last 12 days and in each instance it was an unreasonable response from managment. THINK ABOUT THAT, after you arrive here and your DEC Captain knows less about the aircraft and the operation than you do!

[jarops]

How can you say the FO's are nor compatible? I have previous command on larger than 737, and waiting my upgrade. Yet more DEC's taken in to the company and I find out that senior FO's are more suitable for the position than most of DEC's. It is not about flying hours... having done this for 20 years years and having 10 000 hours on the logbook. My question is about the morality!

[Wiley]

It is true that DEC's have periodically been hired in small numbers, with no affect on upgrades of qualified F/O's until about 2004There'd be a few (now) 'old salts' within EK who'd probably like to debate that point with you with some passion, mensaboy.

[max AB]

Morality....? Since when did that matter. At least you don't work for this bloke... ABC News (http://www.abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7407186)

[411A]

It is not about flying hours... having done this for 20 years years and having 10 000 hours on the logbook.

One must then ask...why did you apply in the first place?
Were no other suitable positions available?

First rule when working in the middle east....enter at the position you desire, not what is promised.

[daviddea]

I see alot of pilots with less than 10000 hours get hired as DECs at EK guess your resume did not flip their skirt.

[skyvan]

So said PP, just check out Rumour Buster!

Methinks that there are some people who enjoy trying to push the temperatures up :*

[Snake man]

While you're on the Rumour Buster..........

Take a look at the 12th Jan 2009 where ED says he won't put the flying hours up by 10 hours a month.
Then recall an e-mail sent by the same author on the 10th Feb 2009 advising that ........you guessed it!

SM

[5star]

I remember the (I will not use the banned word) "lady", who replied on the rumor buster , saying that the DEC policy was the way to go for EK in the future. Oops...
Btw it seems that our "lady" finally found the reply button on the mail server. :eek::eek: Well done!!!

[segajet]

If the DEC's are really involved in more safety related incidents than home grown captains, may I suggest that selectiion and the training departments are not doing their job properly. As a point of interest, were the Jo'Burg and Melbourne captains DEC's?

[halas]

No and no

halas

[halas]

Not sure what statistics you use there, but think you will find that is not correct.

halas

[sandfrog]

Proud of yourselves??

[Oblaaspop]

Daviddea,

Just to correct the nonsense you just posted, 'only' around 15% of EK Capts are DEC's.

(yet again guys, if you don't have a clue about the subject, then please spare us the benefit of your wisdom!!):ugh:

[Wizofoz]

(yet again guys, if you don't have a clue about the subject, then please spare us the benefit of your wisdom!!)

Ob,

There have not been any recent DECs, the "New" Captains on the 777 are transfers from the 'Bus.

Does your admonishment cover people posting innaccurate anti company information, or only those posting innaccurate pro company information?

[GMDS]

talking about such:

and DEC's have a higher rate of issues with respect to flight safety and personal issues
or:
your DEC Captain knows less about the aircraft and the operation than you do!


Very, very dangerous statements. Can the pretentious issuer follow up with any kind of proof/numbers? - Hardly.
If EK's CRM is criticised on these pages, then this guy displays an even worse comprehension of it. :yuk:

Having heard a lot of arguments during the Captains meeting, there was a lot of FO bashing going on. I find this just as despicable as the DEC bashing.
The issue is insufficient training, ever changing, silly SOPs and an extremely poor leadership and CRM by EK. Concentrate on that and not on your fellow pilots, PLEASE.

[goatherd]

When we got DEC's on the bus fleet 5 years ago there were 2 absolute tossers and maybe 1 or 2 marginal ones (all from around this area), the rest were (are) great operators as well as good guys.

If you have a problem with DEC's, blame the company, not the pilots who are only applying for a job. I sure as hell won't leave EK unless it is for a DEC position!!:=

[Marooned]

The problem with DECs is not the personalities it's the principle.

No one has yet explained WHY we need them??? Is it for safety? If so we can all come up with statistics one way or another to prove that DECs are just as likely to have (and have had) incidents/accidents. Is it to dilute the EK culture? If so a tacit admission that something rotten in the state of EK. What else? WHY??? If it is because their cheap then I guess that we'll get what we pay for... but even that argument is full of holes.

Ultimately I suppose it is because they, or that hobbit TCAS, can but what utter low level underhand management we are witnessing.

We have qualified pilots, many with previous command experience, within our own ranks. They have 3-5 years experience of EK ops and route structure. They have been promised, and it is written, that they have priority when they meet the EK standards to upgrade.

At a time when EK management reputation is at an all time low they go ahead and ignore their own regulations, that they don't think twice about enforcing on us, and hire DECs with no direct aircraft or route experience.

Ironically it puts pressure on F/Os to carry them around an unfamiliar route network, postpones any opportunity for the F/Os to get their commands which penalises them significantly financially and does nothing but reinforce the negative sentiment strongly felt towards the management and the airline.

Please, if we are to consider any direct entry personnel lets look at replacements for our pathetic management.

[Wizofoz]

Marooned et al,

I'm not for a moment going to try and defend a lot of what has happened at EK recently. I'm not going to let my full feelings out as too many people know who I am!

But how about we comment on what has actually happened- We are near the bottom of page two about something which just happens not to be true!

The last Captain to join did so in November last year. There has not been any DECs since. There are some A310 and A330/340 Captains training on the Boeing at the moment and someone has jumped to the conclustion that they are DECs.

Let's identify real problems, air them and try and suggest real solutions, not engage in hysteria about the first inacurate rumour that fits our pre-concieved notions.

[Marooned]

Wizo: Agreed.

The problem however is that there is rumor and credible rumor.

DECs have been employed and TCAS has openly stated that, despite the FOM and the EK recruiting spin, that he reserves the personal right to hire DECs.

In our current state of heightened anxiety here it is little wonder that such rumors get credence and get a bite or two.

I hope it is not true, but so many things are happening here at the moment that are unbelievable so why not this?

[Oblaaspop]

Ozmate,

I'm not really sure what you are getting at wrt my post...... Your response bares little or no relevance to what I stated (that about 15% of capts are DEC's as opposed to what a previous poster stated that just about ALL are DEC's). Have a little re-read old chum:confused:

For the record, I am neither pro, nor anti company, however, I am anti bullsh1t!!!!!!

Hope this helps?

[lowstandard]

Gmds

100 % Correct

[dooner]

oh good grief...here we go again... another DEC debate...Martha where are my Tums!

Dooner:yuk:

[EGGW]

Quite Dooner, we can talk about this one until we all go blue in the face. I know it affected me and I have my viewpoint, but so does everyone, for and against.

I think we shall call it a day on this thread, it ain't going nowhere.

Closed

EGGW