Logging Mountain time

[Trans Lift]

Just a quick question. I'm just wondering when we can log mountain time in the States. I can't seem to find it in the FAR. I thought it was when we operated over 5000ft but I'm not sure. If some one could clarify it would be appreciated:ok:


Trans Lift

[SASless]

Does not the USFS call it mountains at 8,000 and up?

Either definition would rule out mountain flying in the UK.:uhoh:

I know.....I know....the Cullins and all that!:=

[GeorgeMandes]

Log mountain, when you are no longer on the green part of the sectional chart.

Kidding aside, I have never heard a definition of "mountain" time nor of any FAR related to this. We have some pretty serious mountains at 2,000 feet in Alaska, but there is a lot over 5,000 in CO and WY that wouldn't qualify as mountain to me.

My wife landed a L4 at 11,300 today, off airport, with a DA of 12,400. While she used mountain techniques, and it was generally in the mountains, the touch down spot was in a high meadow. Glad we don't have to decide how to log stuff like that.

[Gordy]

Does not the USFS call it mountains at 8,000 and up?

Either definition would rule out mountain flying in the UK.

There are definitions set by the DOI and USFS--I do not have them at hand, but will find them later tonight---they DO however rule out logging mountain time in the UK as you say.

DOI refers to the definition contained in 14 CFR part 95 subpart B. USFS is higher. More to follow.

[ramen noodles]

For US, See page 355 of the AIM for a map of designated mountainous regions:

Aim Aeronautical Information Manual (http://www.scribd.com/doc/12661624/Aim-Aeronautical-Information-Manual-)

[wulfman76]

There are parts of the FAA "Mountainous region" that are at or even below sea level. Its a blanket approach.

The only people that will want to know actual mountain hours are the government (usfs/doi...) or an operator that has or wants to get a contract with the government. As stated above i don't have the exact numbers in front of me but it something like numerous takeoffs/landings above 7K'+ to include pinacles, saddles etc. Cruise flight at 8k' doesn't count.

[GeorgeMandes]

I called the mountain flying school at Canadian Helicopters in Penticton, BC, spoke with two of their top guys, and neither was familiar with a definition of mountain time for logging purposes.

[Gordy]

I am half way through researching this issue---I am currently on fire contract with the USFS, (and carded for mountain flying), and sent this problem up the chain of command to Region 4 head office. The response so far is that the definition was changed in the last two weeks. It now states in FSM 5710.5 that mountain time is defined in 14 CFR 95 subpart B.

I will add the folks here are not happy---basically, as Wulfman76 points out, the map in subpart B contains areas at sea level. This "may" be changed back to what it was---which no-one can find but it was above 5,000 ft we believe.

Watch this space for updates.

14 CFR 95 Subpart B (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=9db96829ea858e4eaa3f56ba8512d907&rgn=div6&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.12.2&idno=14)

[SASless]

The "Mountainous Regions" applies to heights for terrain clearance, turbulence avoidance, and position reporting.....not for the logging of "mountain flying time".

I would suggest there really is not a definition that is published that cites the requirements for logging mountain flying time for license consideration but there is one for use by the Department of the Interior, US Forest Service, and other government entities but not the FAA.

[Gordy]

there is one for use by the Department of the Interior, US Forest Service, and other government entities

Correct---they now use the refernce quoted---I am guessing that nobody checked it out, and they just changed it without reading. There were numerous suprised people in the USFS an hour ago when I brought it to their attention. My guess is that it may be changed back again soon. I think it was updated on 4-09-09.

Here is the new definition:

Mountain Flying - Helicopter Pilot. 200 hours experience operating helicopters in mountainous terrain identified in 14 CFR 95 Subpart B-Designated Mountainous Area. Operating includes maneuvering and numerous takeoffs and landings to ridgelines, pinnacles, and confined areas.

FSM 5710.5 (http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:mJo-j2xblJUJ:www.fs.fed.us/im/directives/fsm/5700/5710.doc+FSM+5710.5+definitions&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

[Bladecrack]

when we can log mountain time in the States

Who said anything about logging mountain time in the UK? :confused:

[[email protected]]

But you've got to do it in the dark to count:)

[Hummingfrog]

Crab

At night with no NVG and with snow showers in the vicinity - real SAR in the 80s:E

HF

[SASless]

Gee, Golly, Really?

I wonder what it was like in the old days......say the 60's.....or 50's?:E

[Hummingfrog]

SASless

In the 50s they didn't have the fuel to get to the mountains:E and the wooden blades used to warp:E and the carbs used to ice up!

Read a good book about an American helicopter pilot in Korea who got a telling off for flying at night - but he was extremely brave to do what he did:ok:

HF

[SASless]

Link Luckett flew a Hiller 12E to 17,500 feet doing rescue work on Mt. McKinley in Alaska.....dropped off several folks at 14,500 feet so Don Sheldon could fly them out in a Piper Super Cub.

There is a photograph somewhere of Luckett taking his boots off prior to takeoff to lighten the aircraft....having removed the battery and some other unnecessary items.

Men Against the Mountain - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,939660-1,00.html)

[heliRoto]

G. I flew on a contract last year that had the mountain time required as defined in 14 CFR 95 subpart B. That should not surprise anyone at the FS. I also believe that it is adiquit for most of the FS, DOI work out there.
If you look at individual contracts they have different requirements. Yellowstone Park I believe required 200 hours abve 8000 msl to include numerous takeoff and landings pinical, ridgeline, confined area, typical terrain etc..
As for the CFR definition, yes some areas include portions at sea level. I have stood at sea level looking up the side of a 3000 to 4000 foot mounain and had to haul from a barge to the top. Tricky with a 25+ kt wind and mountain flying skills are helpful. I have also worked the high plaines east of the Rocky's in Colorado and though above 5000 feet it was flat as and wind hardly a factor but on a 40 deg C day in late July DA should have your attention. Standing at the airport in Colorado Springs you are about 6000 msl and looking east you can see to Kansas. Pikes Peak is only a handfull of miles west at 14,100.
I guess I am saying don't confuse high altitude flying with mountain flying. The real trick comes with high altitude mountain flying.

[Gordy]

heliroto

That should not surprise anyone at the FS. I also believe that it is adiquit for most of the FS, DOI work out there.

I am currently attached to one helitack unit and there is another one sharing the base with us right now---NOT ONE of the 12 USFS personnel here had ever seen the 14 CFR 95 subpart B definition, and they were all shocked by it. I do NOT believe that the requirements are adequate to get "mountain" signed off on ones card. Lets face it--some one could conceivably fly all their hours in the Sacramento valley, less than 1,000 msl and meet the requirements for mountain. This does NOT qualify them to fly in the mountains around Idaho for example.

I would imagine it would be hard to get a job in this line of work without being carded for mountain. The only saving grace is the second line in the USFS definition: "Operating includes maneuvering and numerous takeoffs and landings to ridgelines, pinnacles, and confined areas."

BTW--I see you are on Kauai---I flew there for 7 years.

[heliRoto]

G
By "no one" I guess I mean the people in the head shed. The central valley of California is excluded from the designated mountainous area.
I will stand by my statement that the designated areas are adiquite. Your helitack should not be shocked. There are a lot of places 5000 and below that are in the mountains and require mountain flying techniques. I am only saying that high altitude is not the defining element for mountain flying. There is no regulatory definition, but when you look at the contracts let by DOI/USFS etc. They qualify it with numerous take off and landings to/from pinnacals, ridgeline, confined areas and typical terrain. I think it is a bit much to require a pilot to have 200 hours above 8000 msl to work on a fire contract in Arkansas.
So for Trans Lift, if you are conducting operations using mountain flying techniques log it and keep track of altitude both MSL and DA.
They miss you here on Kauai. I am sending you a PM so check it.
Doug

[Trans Lift]

Cheers for all the info guys. Seems to be a bit of a confusing topic but nonetheless that is what I have been doing heliroto. Writing both the DA and MSL. :ok:

[Buitenzorg]

Back in the days when I used to pay attention to matters like this, the OAS/USFS/DoI definition of mountain time was “operating from a base elevation higher than 5,000 ft. MSL.” That was about 7 years ago. These days I fly offshore so I’m not affected.

Operating from a 5,000 MSL base at least gives one some familiarity with high DA considerations especially on summer afternoons; by the present definition I would at the end of my instructing days have amassed a whopping 1,000 mountain hours – all in the LA basin! And yes, including pinnacle, ridgeline and confined area ops up to (gulp, pant) 2,500 ft. MSL!

The title of 14 CFR 95 that the Forest Service Manual refers to is “IFR Altitudes”, and the mountainous regions defined in subpart B are for the purpose of e.g. determining MEAs (minimum enroute altitudes) and use with FAR 91.177:
§ 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below—
(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in parts 95 and 97 of this chapter, then—
(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous area in part 95 of this chapter, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or
(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown.

I personally think that, for the reason given above, the recent change was a step backwards in required pilot experience, and will be repealed when this is realized at a high enough level.