100 Hourly

[mostlytossas]

A question for any LAME's or other owners out there please. I own a share in a Piper Archer 2 that is due for it's 100hrly service. What would be considered a fair time in hours labour for this inspection? ie removal of covers,seats etc and to carry out the inspection then put it all back? I realise any faults found that need rectification is extra hours, but I am interested in only the inpection part of the exercise. Thanks in advance.

[tinpis]

What was the carefully researched estimate you had before you ponied up your share? :hmm:

[Jabawocky]

Tin ........pretty good question!

The next good one is what was your bill ?

I would guess $1500-3000 and if many things are due.......:ouch: :ooh:

[mostlytossas]

Sorry you seem to misunderstand the question. I have no issue with any other owner or the dollars at the end of the day as this can be worked out depending on the hourly rate. What I am trying to work out is what allowance we should budget for a 100hrly. So the amount of hours it would normally take to do the inspection. Not counting any faults/wear etc that may or may not be required.

[tinpis]

Um...forgive me but, you bought a plane and are now figuring out how much it gonna cost?
You need anything else? :uhoh:

[blueloo]

better late than never.

[PlankBlender]

Yup, you're a bit late figuring that one out, or you're simply loaded and don't really care (good on ya in that case, but get a share in a PC-12, man! :}).

It's around twenty hours minimum for the inspection on an Archer. This figure alone doesn't tell you much, though, because depending on which state the machine is in when it goes into the workshop, and very much depending on how it's been used and by whom, the labour cost of fixing stuff could be a multiple of that, not to speak of parts.

Let me illustrate: I bought a well known Archer II, i.e. usage and maintenance history well known and documented, and my LAME spent 30 hours on a combined pre-purchase/100 hourly; we took the tanks out to check the wings properly for corrosion which adds a few extra hours, plus went at it without haste, so we could have probably done it in 20 if we had really wanted to, but I for one enjoyed the process enough to not sit there with a stop watch all the time, and I would allege you get better value out of the LAME that way too. (Quick tangent: The pre-purchase should be of the breadth and depth of a 100 hourly so you might just as well pay a few bucks more and get a clean fresh MR as part of the purchase. Not that hard to organise either. Knowing what work the machine will need of course helps greatly in negotiating the right purchase price. End tangent.)

With work to make the machine technically near perfect, the LAME spent another just over 40 hours (double the amount to include parts as a rough guide), plus just north of 30 hours for the avionics guys to bring up to speed various items that the previous owner that dropped the ball on. I did well, I think, I now have an aeroplane in technically very good condition for a combined purchase/fix-up price that is not above market value, I'd probably say around 20-30% below actually.

As I know that most things that needed fixing are done, I am pretty sure the next 100 hourlies will not throw up too many surprises (there are always some and stuff does break, these hulls are a few decades old), but once you know what you have you can pretty much budget and to a degree control costs going forward.

If you need more info, feel free to post or PM, I have done a fair bit of research into the cost of ownership of my Archer and am happy to share my knowledge. :)

Ah yeah, and while we're at it, I used to pay 65 bucks net for a good (small organisation) LAME down south, now in my new life in QLD I am paying 75 to a slightly larger organisation, are there people in SEQLD who run quality oriented small LAME shops with low overheads? Always happy to support a start-up or smaller independent operator! :ok:

[VH-XXX]

Depends too on how many hours are on it.

It it new or an old ****ebox?

Personally I find 20 hours quite an amazingly large figure (I'm not saying I don't agree with it though).

So for every 10 hours, 2 hours more are required for maintenance minimum!

Better than the stealth bombers and some other military types etc, they can require 100 hours or more maintenance for every hour in the air!

[Clearedtoreenter]

I've owned a couple of Archers and a Dakota. Fine aircraft. How long a 100hrly will take depends on the plane and who's doing it. My 100hrlys varied between $1500 and $11,000. Inspection part should not be more than 14 hours - but costs will vary according to what they find peeping into those little holes with their torches and mirrors on sticks. Then if they decide to take the tanks out (the only way to see parts of the spar) or drop a wing off for a wingwalk or something.. start taking the proverbial sharp intake of breath and thinking extra days not hours.

One thing I have found is that 100hrlys on a PA28 are almost always a bit less than on a Cessna....

[thunderbird five]

Our aero club C172 just got done last week. $2000.
20.5 man hours (team effort) in at 0800, out the door at 1700, one day - as always. It is extremely well maintained in country Vic.
A handful of small parts (nuts/bolts/seals) at prices cheaper than the current U.S. price, plus some brake work, a tyre change, and a few other incidentals.
Yes, our first bill years ago there was a biggie, fixing all the stuff that had been missed by previous LAMEs. Now it's cruising on easy street.

TB5

[tail wheel]

"I used to pay 65 bucks net for a good (small organisation) LAME down south, now in my new life in QLD I am paying 75 to a slightly larger organisation..."

You previously got it very cheap, now you're getting it cheap.

LAME rates are generally around $85/hour, which is also cheap compared to luxury car dealers, charging up to $125/hour for "specialist" labour.

[Kulwin Park]

Normally it would be 18hrs inspection minimum (and depending on various mods or interior installed. Plus 2 hours for job raising, logbook research & completion and work-pack orgainising. ... So 20 hours is a reasonable figure.

Sometimes a siezed screw, bad cowlings, etc all make an extra half hour hour inevitable, but thats life - they are working machines.

Cheers, KP

[Clearedtoreenter]

Now it's cruising on easy street.


Yeah right... until you take it along to another LAME, then guess what will happen.:ouch::ouch:

[that chinese fella]

LAME rates are generally around $85/hour, which is also cheap compared to luxury car dealers, charging up to $125/hour for "specialist" labour

My local Toyota dealer charged me $110 per hour for labour, and I bet some pimply 17 year old apprentice did all the work. :ouch:

Our maintenance facility now charges the same and have no complaints from any customers. (our apprentices arent that pimply :ok:)

LAME rates less than the automotive industry, at a minimum, is yet another example of how bad aviation is at pricing it's services. :(

I call it the 'Those magnificent men in their flying machines' syndrome.

[mostlytossas]

Thanks to all those who replied with factual, informed information. So I will put a 100hrly for an archer down at 16hrs (give or take 3 or 4hrs.) All I need it for is my accounts system, as the aircraft is used for 50% business and need to itemise all expenditure. EG fixed costs; parking fees, insurance etc. Recurring maintenance ; 100hrly,50hrly,instrument calibration etc, Non recurring maintenance; repairs,wear and tear, etc. to keep the accountant happy.
Amazing though isn't it. As soon as a question is asked the dimwits of prune are the first to respond with nothing of any importance to say or it appears any knowledge of the subject let alone understanding the question to start with.:ugh:

[Clearedtoreenter]

My local Toyota dealer charged me $110 per hour for labour, and I bet some pimply 17 year old apprentice did all the work.

Sure, maybe. But did your $120,000 Toyota sit out in the grass for 3 weeks before they could get around to it because they have so many big important customers? Did some pimply apprentice leave the master switch on and so you arrive to pick it up with a flat battery? Did you get treated with honesty courtesy and respect by folk who did what they said were going to do in the time they said it would take? Did you find clean, well organised premises? Did it come back with some paperwork that says you cannot use your car's full capability until you return because they did not quite organise part of the service? How many things went wrong as a result of your last Toyoto service?

C'mon, you get what you pay for - and in many cases that's not much more a bunch of scruffy disorganised back yard amateurs. Cheap they may be - professional they aint.

[Ultralights]

My 100hrlys varied between $1500 and $11,000.
and people ask me why im buying a Jabiru J230 over a Cherokee!

[VH-XXX]

Mostlytossas writes:

"As soon as a question is asked the dimwits of prune are the first to respond with nothing of any importance to say"


Easy solution for next time, don't come back!

[golow]

The 100 hourly should take about 16 to 20 hours. 50 hourly about 2 hours. Add avionics check and AD another 5 hours. So 1 hour of labour for every 4 hours in the air.
Your Toyota dealer does a service for 2 or 3 hours not 25. I bet he wishes he could get 25 hours of labour charge per car. If you charged $125 an hour labour the industry would die because in the real world who is going to private hire a PA28 archer at around $400 an hour which is what you would have to charge.
LAME always tell you how cheap they are and how much a car dealer charges but I tell them you find the customers to pay the extra and I will pay you more. They then walk to the tea room and complain about pilots and aircraft owners

[Kulwin Park]

So I will put a 100hrly for an archer down at 16hrs (give or take 3 or 4hrs.)

Well you may as well just put down 20 hours up front, so your expenses you are calculating for allow for a bit of overbudget.

Also, any monies set aside for the avionics inspection if you are in IFR category.

[the wizard of auz]

One thing I have found is that 100hrlys on a PA28 are almost always a bit less than on a Cessna...
Can't say I agree with that. I used to land at 08:00 and depart at 17:00 in my C172. I did the unbuttoning and buttoning up of cowls and panels and got onto the snags while the LAME came along behind me and did the inspections and inspected my work then certified it. we always had lunch and smoko and usually had the logbooks sorted by 16:00. two blokes x 8hrs each (although the Lame rarely did anywhere near eight hours on it) comes to 16 hours. never went over it on a normal 100. when doing the rad 42/43 the techy had that sorted in less than an hour. Inst 9 was about an hour also. a very good conservative estimate would be 20 hrs. never saw any of the Pipers in and out on the same day though.

[ciscodiscocisco]

thats right us and our little torches in and out of panels looking for any extra work to be done on your precious flying machines....... we do our quotes based on in and out and the amount of time taken in the past when nothing else extra has been found.

Oviously as tear and wear and parking of your AC for long times components break and wear as nothing last forever, thats why it gets expensive and since no private AC is less than 5years old everything else is Wright brothers generation of course its going to take a long time to get parts and components for your AC.

So be patient and if you want the cost to be a minimal then how about giving the engineers a hand by taking panels off and not asking when is it going to be finished cause thats irritating and a day keeps adding on..... the tricks of the trade:8

[Horatio Leafblower]

how about giving the engineers a hand by taking panels off ...?

Because, Cisco old buddy, your boss won't let me! :=

...and who the hell are you, and what the f#$% are you doing in my Baron? :} :ok:

[gassed budgie]

100 hourly on the 172N last Tueday came in at $1723 +GST. Parts came to $49, oil was $287 (to refill the engine and a 20L drum for the 25 hourly oil changes), 17.5 hours of labour at $77/hr totalled $1347 and there was $40 for consumables. I was happy with that. The aeroplane was in the shop at 9.30am and out the door that afternoon at 5pm.
As a contrast, the first 100 hourly the guys did on the 210 which was completed last week, scraped in at a tad over $32,000. Was happy with that too. At least now I know everything's going to work when it's supposed to!

[ciscodiscocisco]

hehe Horatio Leafblower...... mmmmmm are you the same dude from the CSI series who wears the sunnies, i think so cause you had them on today lol:cool::cool:...

Well nice to see you here.....

[Clearedtoreenter]

So be patient and if you want the cost to be a minimal then how about giving the engineers a hand by taking panels off and not asking when is it going to be finished cause thats irritating and a day keeps adding on.....

If you blokes would just do what you said you were going to do when you said you were going to do it, we wouldn't have to. :rolleyes: Alternatively, if you don't really want the work, just say so. You dont have to treat customers like crap just because you can..:yuk:

[Hasherucf]

If you blokes would just do what you said you were going to do when you said you were going to do it, we wouldn't have to. :rolleyes: Alternatively, if you don't really want the work, just say so. You dont have to treat customers like crap just because you can..http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gifI think owners need to be realistic about times that it takes to do extra work. Sure a straight 100 hourly with no additional work should be done promptly, but when something is found out of the ordinary dont expect us to magically pull parts from thin air. There is no Cessna dealership in town like a Ford or Holden dealership so parts take time to source. Also most of the private aircraft are getting very old , my car mechanic wont work on anything under 6 years old ....in his opinion I should be buying a new car around that time . If fact my brothers car service costs more for his Nissan than for his Piper.

Most owners like telling there friends that they own a plane but neglete to tell them that they havent bought any new parts for it in 30 thirty years . Heres a tip to all you owners 'It needs some work every thirty years or so'

For f%*k sake cant these people buy new interiors and a paint job its just plain embrasssing. I am sure a friendly LAME would let you install your own new interior and the paint shop is normally not even LAMEs

Before you say it...... aircraft parts are expensive but not as expensive as a new Cessna (try 325K US for a 172) , Beech or Piper and if it wasnt negleted for the last 30 years then it wouldnt need all this extra work.

They can buy new desert duelers for there 80k leather bound Prado but baulk at the price of aircraft parts , but surely those new desert deulers make it safe for there kids to ride in the car..... but buying tires for there clapped out 172 doesnt effect anyones safety?????

Believe it or not there is a shortage of LAME's and it wont be fixed anytime soon , considering my motor mechanic gets paid much more than me with a tenth on the responibilty its no wonder the industry cant attract people.

Fortunatly I work in a company that doesnt do outside maintenance so I dont have to put up with the average owner but a walking down the private aircraft line at my local airport is an embrassment of aviation.

Thats my rant..