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quant
23rd Apr 2009, 22:48
North Korea has become a fully fledged nuclear power, with the capacity to wipe out cities in Japan and South Korea.
The uncomfortable truth has been confirmed by a number of experts, from the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency to the US Defence Secretary. According to intelligence briefings shown to academic experts, North Korea has successfully miniaturised nuclear warheads that could be launched on medium-range missiles.


North Korea is fully fledged nuclear power, experts agree - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6155956.ece)

Welcome to the club :sad: I wonder when Iran will join and Israel will admit they have nuclear weapons too :confused:

22 Degree Halo
23rd Apr 2009, 22:57
To be honest "experts agree" Global Warming is happening when it's not, so I wouldn't worry about it.:)

Wod
24th Apr 2009, 03:04
Bet they never get to fire one off in anger.

Dushan
24th Apr 2009, 03:17
Bet they never get to fire one off in anger.

Obama (PBUH) will talk nice to them, sing a little kumbaya, exchange a book, maybe, and all will be good.

John Hill
24th Apr 2009, 07:40
Hey! I have a great idea!

America is worried about North Korea having nuclear weapons, North Korea is always desperate for money, America loves having nuclear weapons in fact they have thousands of them plus they think they are the only people who should have them.

Solution, America buys all the weapons North Korea can produce! Then we can all get some sleep.:ok:

OFSO
24th Apr 2009, 10:14
Seriously it is only a matter of time before some dim-witted government lets one off. And if it stops at one we'll be lucky.

Unless they detonate it by accident in their own country, and then we'll be VERY lucky.

Blacksheep
24th Apr 2009, 11:27
The first dim-witted government that lets one off may find that the results are not beneficial to national survival. :hmm:

President Ahmedinejad said on live television that nuclear weapons are a useless extravagance, because it isn't possible to use one.

I think he meant that firing a low-yield fission weapon at another country within medium missile range risked becoming the ultimate example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

22 Degree Halo
25th May 2009, 12:11
Outrage over N Korea nuclear test
BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Outrage over N Korea nuclear test (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8066861.stm)

con-pilot
25th May 2009, 17:02
I'm not so worried about North Korea using a nuclear device as I am them selling one, or more, to some one who will.

They need money desperately.

frostbite
25th May 2009, 17:43
Bet they never get to fire one off in anger.

By all accounts they don't yet have anything capable of transporting one very far.

G-CPTN
25th May 2009, 18:18
I think the US should nuke the site:- Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://wikimapia.org/#lat=41.2801245&lon=129.0852624&z=18&l=0&m=a&v=2)
Wikimapia - Let's describe the whole world! (http://wikimapia.org/#lat=41.2773428&lon=129.0868556&z=18&l=0&m=a&v=2)
(both of them, although one bomb should possible do for both)


Maybe just a non-nuclear 'bunker-buster' might be sufficient?

under_exposed
26th May 2009, 08:44
The first dim-witted government that lets one off may find that the results are not beneficial to national survival
Do you mean the second?

BlueWolf
26th May 2009, 12:08
Nukes oughta be compulsory. If every country had them, there'd be much less international crime.

Yes, I'm serious.

....actually I think if only one country were allowed nukes, it should probably be France, because the Froggies probably would actually have the balls to use the damn things if they thought it necessary, and they'd also probably be quite fair about it.

Tyres O'Flaherty
26th May 2009, 13:00
Nukes are nothing more than a political bargaining chip.

Unusable, & originally developed, according to military historians, as a result of the innaccuracy of conventional weapons, the extraordinary yield being necessary to guarantee target destruction.

This is obviously no longer the case for nations with access to PGM's.

Once developed & taken into service, they have become a monumental expense & hazard to the operators, that they are structurally stuck with ( politics again ). N-weapons are of little more tac/strat utility than Bio or chem.

I recommend this book very highly;


Arsenals of Folly: The Making of the Nuclear Arms Race - FSI Stanford (http://fsi.stanford.edu/publications/arsenals_of_folly_the_making_of_the_nuclear_arms_race/)





Edit; I will go along with Con Pilot on the dangerous possibility of a nation passing a device to a non nation actor, however the result of use would most likely occasion another reaction against the supplier per Blacksheep, contingent on reliable proof. ( I know..., don't answer that one )

Roger Sofarover
27th May 2009, 09:33
Well, it seems that they are flexing their muscles already today.

Captain Stable
27th May 2009, 09:48
WTF are they up to? Do they think that the rest of the world is too busy with Iraq and Afghanistan to worry about a nuclear state starting a war FF sake? Because I suspect Afghanistan would get dropped in a flash if needs be.

What's a little terrorism and Muslim fundamentalism beside the prospect of nuclear war?

I really, REALLY hope we are not in for Korean War II.

BoeingMEL
27th May 2009, 09:48
.... my fear is that the hawks in the Pentagon may persuade their Pres that dropping some token (but still devastating) dirt on NK's production and launch facilities may become the only solution. Anyone agree? Cheers bm :eek:

racedo
27th May 2009, 10:58
I think this is the test everybody was suggesting for BHO as the New Prez of the Free World.

North Korea now threatening war so soon as they move to loading a nuke on a missile then time to make them aware of the consequences. Taking out the launch site and production site gets a message very clear.

Give them 2 hours to consider before a missile heading the way of Kim and its top generals and then get the South Koreans to hunker down as the North attempts invasion. Mind you destroy all their command and control comms makes it interesting.

BoeingMEL
27th May 2009, 11:13
..well, if they need any one-eyed, half-lame Bell 47 drivers (Franklin engine please)...you can put my name down! Worrying days.. bm

sitigeltfel
27th May 2009, 11:22
North Korea will always be a threat while China props it up. The Chinese are happy to do this because they know it is a thorn in the side of the West. Meanwhile China will continue its expansionist and military build up while we squabble over the minutiae.
The key to reining in N Korea is China, sort that out and the problem will fade.
.

Rollingthunder
27th May 2009, 11:23
Aye getting really sick of this fledged piss ant nuclear excuse of a country. Time to clip wings me thinks, before they get stupider.

dead_pan
27th May 2009, 11:33
Play the long game I say. Kim Il has only got a few more years left in him, hopefully his younger son will, when he inherits the country, quickly realise the country cannot continue on its current course.

China will not allow the North Koreans to do anything deranged like attack the South. It seems to me their happy to let them have a few toys to play with but will quickly reign them in (as they are no doubt doing now) if the situation looks like its getting out of hand. China absolutely could not afford a major regional war on its doorstep, particularly one which would inevitably draw in the US and possibly even Japan.

Sprogget
27th May 2009, 11:45
China is the key in all this. Not I think to maintain the state as a thorn in the west's side, that thinking is decades past, more that Beijing doesn't want a US backed state on it's border. That and Taiwan leverage. I just had a read of the NK daily. Wow, it's like going back to 1978. NK is done one way or the other, it's a matter of time.

er340790
27th May 2009, 12:52
Quote: "Nukes are nothing more than a political bargaining chip."

Hmmmm, remind me, when was the last time a non-nuclear state successfully invaded and took control of a nuclear one?


Not entirely sure what is driving NK's actions at this time... economic collapse, leadership vacuum, military power-struggles, but they are, in every sense of the word, playing with fire...

It'll all end in tears. :=

Captain Stable
27th May 2009, 13:00
..well, if they need any one-eyed, half-lame Bell 47 drivers (Franklin engine please)...you can put my name down! Worrying days.. bmI suspect Hawkeye and BJ are dusting off their fatigues even now...

Yep, I'd give flying a 47 a chance as well.

Low Flier
27th May 2009, 13:14
Hmmmm, remind me, when was the last time a non-nuclear state successfully invaded and took control of a nuclear one?
Friday, 2 April 1982

Attila the Hen subsequently pre-positioned a brace of 'tooms, each equipped with a bucket of sunshine, in Chile during the "conflict" and also deployed a Polaris boat within range of BA and a few other juicy targets, but nukes really played no part in the "theatre".

Post-1945, nukes really are a losers weapon. War winners really don't need 'em.

Avitor
27th May 2009, 13:21
Looking at the way they march, they won't be able to go too far, their feet will be a mass of blood and smashed bones.
Regardless of the flippant banter here, they are a dangerous tribe. Their commie leader is quite mad......and he still harbours designs on the South.

Captain Stable
27th May 2009, 13:25
Avitor, I suspect that the difference this time is that the Chinese won't be on their side.

Nor will anyone else.

Beatriz Fontana
27th May 2009, 13:38
When you start hearing the following, it's too late...

This is the Wartime Broadcasting Service. This country has been attacked with nuclear weapons. Communications have been severely disrupted, and the number of
casualties and the extent of the damage are not yet known. We shall bring you further information as soon as possible. Meanwhile, stay tuned to this wavelength, stay calm and stay in your own homes.

Remember there is nothing to be gained by trying to get away. By leaving your homes you could be exposing yourselves to greater danger. If you leave, you may find yourself without food, without water, without accommodation and without protection. Radioactive fall-out, which followed a nuclear explosion, is many times more dangerous if you are directly exposed to it in the open. Roofs and walls offer substantial protection. The safest place is indoors.

Make sure gas and other fuel supplies are turned off and that all fires are extinguished. If mains water is available, this can be used for fire-fighting. You should also refill all your containers for drinking water after the fires have been put out, because the mains water supply may not be available for very long.

Water must not be used for flushing lavatories: until you are told that lavatories may be used again, other toilet arrangements must be made. Use your water only for essential drinking and cooking purposes. Water means life. Don't waste it.

Make your food stocks last: ration your supply, because it may have to last for 14 days or more. If you have fresh food in the house, use this first to avoid wasting it: food in tins will keep.

If you live in an area where a fall-out warning has been given, stay in your fall-out room until you are told it is safe to come out. When the immediate danger has passed the sirens will sound a steady note. The "all clear" message will also be given on this wavelength. If you leave the fall-out room to go to the lavatory or replenish food or water supplies, do not remain outside the room for a minute longer than is necessary.

Do not, in any circumstances, go outside the house. Radioactive fall-out can kill. You cannot see it or feel it, but it is there. If you go outside, you will bring danger to your family and you may die. Stay in your fall-out room until you are told it is safe to come out or you hear the "all clear" on the sirens....

We shall repeat this broadcast in two hours' time. Stay tuned to this wavelength, but switch your radios off now to save your batteries until we come on the air again. That is the end of this broadcast.

Peter Fanelli
27th May 2009, 13:57
I think the US should nuke the site

I think the UK should nuke the site, we're done with policing the world.
Don't expect anything aggressive from this current administration.

Krystal n chips
27th May 2009, 14:21
:hmm: Beatriz......do you, er know something we don't then ?


"When you start hearing the following, it's too late."..

It was a very nice public service broadcast.....but could have been summated to: " Members of the public should now watch closely when the family cat demonstrates the part of his / her grooming process that is now your only option"...;):E

OK..... Back to nuking the N.Koreans then.

dead_pan
27th May 2009, 14:28
I see the UN is on the case - we can expect some even tougher sanctions this time. That should get the North Koreans back in line :ugh:

Roger Sofarover
27th May 2009, 14:33
Play the long game I say. Kim Il has only got a few more years left in himBut perhaps the mad dwarf wants to leave a legacy that will ensure his name is remembered for a 1000 years. When you are a mad world dictator that has developed a home grown nuclear weapons capability, what point is there in going out quietly, it doesn't fit the profile. Now where is 007? and where is the 6th Fleet?

dead_pan
27th May 2009, 15:05
From the looks of him he could well keel over without having time to reach for the big red button.

I'm hoping his cronies are doing all of this to impress him before he checks out. As soon as he's gone they'll be far more agreeable. They'll look over their borders and think we'll have some of that.

BTW they don't appear to have any means of delivering their weapon, other than strapping it to one of their ageing fighters (that's assuming its small enough), or hiding it in an ox-cart. The recent test of their long-range missile was a complete flop (unless of course it was brought down by a top-secret US beam weapon).

Avitor
27th May 2009, 15:40
His subjects must be seriously grateful to him for making them starve while he plays with his toys.
I hate him almost as much as I hate Gordon Brown......:}

G-CPTN
27th May 2009, 15:52
Hasn't Kim Jong-Il aleady been cloned?
The previous one suffered a medical catastrophe, so the new one was activated and made public . . .

BarbiesBoyfriend
27th May 2009, 16:38
'If in doubt, do nowt'

Leave the clot alone. He loves the attention. Ignore him.

He's over the finishing line now and can't be attacked or bullied by the yanks. No one else is going to get involved and risk provoking him into using his atom bomb.

If he starts on South Korea, for heavens sake leave them to get on with it!

Last time it was a bloody mess, but this time it could get REALLY messy!

edit to add - Rolling Thunder. Clip your own wings for a change, eh?;)

Rollingthunder
27th May 2009, 16:44
Ignore list: +1

Storminnorm
27th May 2009, 17:01
I bet the doggie population in Korea is a bit worried.
People will be stocking up on food.

BenThere
27th May 2009, 17:04
He's over the finishing line now and can't be attacked or bullied by the yanks. No one else is going to get involved and risk provoking him into using his atom bomb.

I have to admit we "yanks" have bullied Dear Leader's peoples' republic in the past, at a cost of some 50,000 of our own lives, depriving Koreans in the South of their right to live in a socialist utopia to its endgame. By nevermind that, it must have been all about oil, anyway, or we wouldn't have been there in the first place, right?.

The real threat posed today is to Japan, South Korea, and ultimately China, itself. If and when China cuts off the tap to its little pit bull, I expect a bit of 'woman scorned' recrimination to fall back upon them, which promises to be a delight to watch. China caused, or at least enabled this problem; China should solve it.

I would like to see the US bail out on the whole problem and leave it to those affected most by it. So what if Japan rearms? We need to isolate ourselves from the world's regional situations that don't threaten us and concentrate on those that do. Haven't we collectively agreed the world is going nuclear and there's nothing we can or should do about it?

HAWK21M
27th May 2009, 17:07
When a terror organisation gets access to a Nuclear weapon.Then the world will end.
There has to be curbs.
regds
MEL

dead_pan
27th May 2009, 17:29
Didn't Kim Il Jung used to have a show on Radio 2 with the Diddy men? He was good mates with Kim Il Saville.

Scumbag O'Riley
27th May 2009, 17:46
When a terror organisation gets access to a Nuclear weapon.Then the world will end.
There has to be curbs.
regds
MELAll the nuclear powers are thugs who flout international law when it suits them to the detriment of others. Maybe India has the cleanest sheet. Others are terrorist states by any definition of the phrase.

The curbs you ask for were agreed and negotiated in the NPT but same nuclear powers have refused to abide by the terms.

Hardly surprising there is a growing queue to join the club.

Flash2001
27th May 2009, 18:12
S O'R

France is a terrorist state?? Who, pray tell, do the French terrify?

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

BarbiesBoyfriend
27th May 2009, 19:50
Ben There

Re 'Korea I'.

50,000 lives lost, but for what gain? None-as usual with the US.

Same trick in Vietnam. 55,000 down the plug for zero gain.

And, as usual, no one know or cares about the losses on the other side, after all................

Same old cack today in Afg and Iraq. Including the uncounted 'opposition' dead

All I'm saying is that another 'Foreign Entanglement' might be better avoided?

brickhistory
27th May 2009, 20:04
BB:

Re 'Korea I'.

50,000 lives lost, but for what gain? None-as usual with the US.


I'm fairly sure there's some tens of millions of Republic of Korea citizens who would differ with your assessment. Not to mention the UN forces that fought alongside the US and ROK - the British especially.

All I'm saying is that another 'Foreign Entanglement' might be better avoided?

Er, did you actually comphrehend his post? He said essentially that. Let those affected sort it out.

Works for me.

BenThere
27th May 2009, 20:05
You're onto it, Barbie.

There is no gain, hence why torture (waterboard) ourselves. To those who must deal with it, deal with it.

Foreign entanglements are futile, and should be avoided, as Washington said.

America, the only nation I really care about, will do just fine if it retreats to its borders and protects them. The rest of you I'm quite happy with leaving to your own devices. Consider me chastised.

BarbiesBoyfriend
27th May 2009, 20:21
Ben

Don't worry, I haven't missed the real tone of your post.

You might think that when the US acts it acts out of some sort of altruistic sense of honour. Not so.

It acts to further the interests of the US and for sod all else.

Sometimes that aligns with the interests of others, WW1 and 2 for sure.

Sometimes it aligns with the interests of the US only.

The US is a 'war economy'. The warned of 'military industrial complex' is alive and well. It feeds off war.

I'm no apologist for the N. Koreans but I truly do not wish to see the US involved in another campaign in SE Asia-and I quite realise that neither do you.

It was talk of 'Clipping their wings' by Rolling Thunder that I bit on.

Also, say what you like but the US won't mess with him now he's got first order WMD. Sends out an interesting message, does it not?

bnt
27th May 2009, 20:28
Headline says it all: North Korea warns of attack (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/north-korea-warns-of-attack-20090527-bn5r.html)

North Korea said Wednesday it was abandoning the truce that ended the Korean war and warned it could launch a military attack on the South, two days after testing an atomic bomb for the second time.

Sprogget
27th May 2009, 20:41
'm fairly sure there's some tens of millions of Republic of Korea citizens who would differ with your assessment. Not to mention the UN forces that fought alongside the US and ROK - the British especially.

Very true BH. OTOH, Bill Harrison didn't think so at the time - he said he was the first US commander in history to accept peace without victory.

Will Fraser
27th May 2009, 21:26
Deja freakin' vu. For what ever reason we find ourselves on the doorstep of "Gulf War X redux".. The self proclaimed golfer, bowler, and bon vivant steps into Seoul, and the UN listens to Powell's counterpart (Hillary) frame the foundation for a multi National adventure into Korea? Been There. Done that. We could have lost the Vietnamese adventure just as well with a thousand Special Hats in country, (Won, even?). No Pacifist, when do we decide to modernize modern military tactics that include bulletproof intelligence, several thousand Rangers, SEALS, etc. and some cutthroat terror instead of civilians deciding soft bread parameter driven ROE?

Invading with gobs of troops is not getting the job done. It's hideously expensive (read Profitable), and so yesterday's Imperialism. Can you spell the Opium Wars? (Hmmm..)

Will

INNflight
27th May 2009, 23:20
Forget the part about North Korea needing money, they print their own US Dollars (I'm totally serious) in huge amounts day by day.

There was a report on some news channel some weeks back about federal agents trying to distinguish between a real 100 dollar note and one printed in N Korea. They needed to do a multiple meter wide upsized print of the notes to see the tiny mistakes.


Best call (and one not to mess up I'm sure) would be a secret operation in N Korea, destroying their nukes....Easier said than done - I kno.

con-pilot
27th May 2009, 23:28
Forget the part about North Korea needing money, they print their own US Dollars (I'm totally serious) in huge amounts day by day.


I have been told by an extremely well informed friend, who is in a position to know about this matter, that are the North Koreans not only printing US Dollars, they are also printing Euros by the truck loads.

Will Fraser
27th May 2009, 23:43
MMMM......... with American technology. I'm not kidding.

INNflight
28th May 2009, 08:43
that are the North Koreans not only printing US Dollars, they are also printing Euros by the truck loads.

Even better..... you gotta do something when your own currency isn't worth c*** :}

Low Flier
28th May 2009, 10:16
When we do it we call it quantitative easing.

They're just helping our Treasuries to do what our Treasuries want to do anyway.

mtanz0
28th May 2009, 12:51
Why does everyone have it in for America these days, it's just become fashionable to hate them. They're the most powerful, most stable government in the world, and therefore whether they like it or not, must act as the world's policeman. Sure they tend to get involved more pro-actively when it coincides with their own interests but what's wrong with that. After Somalia, they have to be more choosy about picking their conflicts, but it's unfair to say that they're purely motivated by greed or looking after their own interests. George Bush was a plonker, but let's just get over it.

BlueWolf
29th May 2009, 12:09
Well said mtanz0, though I'm not certain Dubya was ever as much of a fool as he liked to make out.

I challenge any of America's knockers to propose a better world under anyone else's hegemony.

China, anyone? Islam? Europe? Do me a favour. :rolleyes::hmm:

con-pilot
29th May 2009, 16:16
Getting away from the always expected and always boring Bush/US bashing and back on the subject.

It looks now that there is an excellent possibility that the underground explosion was not nuclear. US and British aircraft equipped with air sniffer devices have not detected enough traces of nuclear material that should have been released into the atmosphere from the size of the underground explosion.

If this turns out to be correct, you must wonder just what type of Gamesmanship North Korea is up to.

Will Fraser
29th May 2009, 16:41
He would need the equivalent of 800 daisy cutters to match a yield commensurate with Hiroshima. Not impossible, and probably easy to discern. If his pop was conventional, many will be mightily embarrassed. And Jay Leno will be ecstatic.

reynoldsno1
2nd Jun 2009, 02:00
Stay tuned to this wavelength, but switch your radios off now to save your batteries until we come on the air again
How do I know you're back on the air if my radio is switched off....???


Nervous of Seoul

frostbite
2nd Jun 2009, 13:08
Stay tuned to Radio 5.

I don't listen to it, but apparently one of their newsreaders said something along the lines of 'North Yorkshire has detonated an underground nuclear device', and she didn't even notice what she'd said.

Beatriz Fontana
2nd Jun 2009, 15:08
I didn't realise that the Yorkshire separatists were stepping up operations again!

There are parts of that fair county that could do with a thermonuclear device dropping on it.....

MadsDad
2nd Jun 2009, 15:13
Beatriz, North Yorkshire isn't too bad.

Mayhap you are thinking of West Yorkshire (some of which could have done with a programme of Thermonuclear Civic Improvement when I lived in the region). And I won't even mention South Yorkshire.

BlueWolf
3rd Jun 2009, 01:57
A Yorkshire nuke would be a real nuke, not some weak, watery, namby-pamby imitation one. You could stand a spoon up in a Yorkshire nuke.