QF2061 diversion 23APR

[Eastwest Loco]

Hi good people.

QF2061 tonight MEL DPO has diverted to LST due to power loss at DPO airport.

Big deal you say, BUT - where was the backup genny that used to kick in if this happened?

I have had several instances over a good few years where the genny kicked in after a grid failure and runway lights as well as adequate terminal lighting were kept live.

There was one failure where the AN and EW F27s were around 10 mins out and the backup failed. Wilkie from AN and I had a flare path laid within 25 mins while the F27s circulated overhead. There were a few interesting moments when a couple of the flame pots exploded due to a little overspeeding on the ungoverned Toyota tug.

This begs the question, what happens if the DPO lighting fails, backup does not work as tonight and DPO with no holding required is surrounded by BWT (WNY) LST HBA MEL MGB etc all clagged in? It does happen.

Who is going to hold Tas Ports accountable for the fact that their backup failed and why were the ground handlers not versed in laying a flare path?

On a night like tonight, the expensive diversion worked. If there were more factors in the mix it could have been a disaster.

I just find this a distressing lack of initiative, but you get what you pay for.

Best all

EWL

[blueloo]

Can happen anywhere EWL. Happened last year when i was in AKL. Some backup power did kick in, not all of it - partially lit airport, and the tower wasn't sure if it was reliable or not (all backup indications were not showing as 100% reliable). They were using hand held radios.

Whole area (surrounding suburbs ) went black.

That was an airport capable of CAT III - so i wouldnt hold my breath for Australia, where pretty much every airport is a backwater! (in Airservices eyes)

[Eastwest Loco]

Same case here Blue.

There were in my day 2 backup systems. Backup genny, and flare path as a last and not too hard to do measure.

Backup genny failed (probaby had not been checked since FSU was closed) and obviously nobody knew how to access the flare pots or didn't want to do it because it was hard work.

This just shows how the industry is going to hell.

If every alternate was under minima would anyone have even thought of a flare path?

Brave New World my fat arse:sad:

Best

EWL

[Worrals in the wilds]

why were the ground handlers not versed in laying a flare path?

G'day EWL,
I'd be surprised if ops at any major airport in the country could lay a flare path, or would have the equipment to do so.

AFAIK, if there's a catastophic lighting failure and the backup power doesn't work, the SOP is to close and divert any traffic.

Happy to be proven wrong by other posters, but that's the procedure here, for better or for worse.

As you say, this is why checking the gennys regularly is so very important.

Worrals

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep Worrals

It is a sad state of affairs. It is not too hard to lay a flare path, and should be a standard fallback procedure.

We were not too sure about what we did as we had never been schooled in that, but if a flare pot explodes on a tug hauled barrow at 30kph the flash goes out backwards. One did wait for Wilkie and removed his eyebrows!

The dayt will come where everything else is closed and the power out/genny shagged will happen - and nobody will have a blind clue what to do.

That is the point.

Best

EWL

[Capt Claret]

A colleague landed at GOV some years ago, no one knowing that the lighting was on SBY Power. The SBY Power failed just after commencing the subsequent takeoff roll. :eek:

Can be quite susceptible to lightning strikes, can GOV.

[Worrals in the wilds]

EWL,
Absolutely, and thanks for the advice; perish the thought I might need it :eek:. We were only discussing flare paths the other day, I'll not post the average age of those in the know because it might incriminate you :}

Can Do Attitude is very quickly dying out, unfortunately.

P.S. Still working on Marseille...

[topend3]

I am not sure many RPT operators would be satisfied with using a flare path unless it was an absolute last resort. A couple of years back there was an issue at ZNE when the lighting failed and when offered the flare path, that the airport operator was in the process of laying out, the crew advised they would divert to PBO.

Power failures are quite rare, more often than not it's pilots who can't use PAL systems.

[Capn Bloggs]

As you say, this is why checking the gennys regularly is so very important.
CASA should throw the book at DPO airport management. Having the Standby Power (which is probably the most critical facility for Alternate requirements aside from the navaids) fail is unacceptable. When was it checked??

Power failures are quite rare, more often than not it's pilots who can't use PAL systems.
I'm not going to let that one go through to the keeper, TE3. That is exactly why the terminal office where the airline ground staff work should contain the lighting manual override switch, and not have it in a locked shed, the key of which is held by the airport manager at home watching Desperate Housewives! :=

[Buster Hyman]

Surely they could just circle till the morning LocoBloko.....

[topend3]

Next time you are in ZNE Bloggsy have a look at the 3rd lighting tower from the right, it's where the new over-ride switch is...so the ground staff can locate it.

You should remember that the only time the over-ride switch will work is if it's a failure of the PAL unit itself, in a power fault situation it ain't going to bring the lights back on! More often than not it simply involves the airport staff driving close enough to the airport and turning on the lights via the radio in the car, cos the turkeys in the plane can't use the PAL system...

And in regards to DPO even with the best backup power system isn't it possible that sometimes **** just happens, due to no fault of any system or anyone, and airlines need to plan for diversion? Like if an aircraft goes tits up on the runway and cant be moved.

[Old 'Un]

Can remember when a certain southern airfield strip was illuminated by headlights of vehicles driven by town's residents for an emergency flight in from the ice. A/c may have been a Globemaster (1960's?). Injured worker on board and they wanted to get him to the closest hospital.

Would never happen now. Imagine the 'please explain' for allowing non-security-cleared vehicles & pesonnel airside in such vast numbers.

Don't recall, even back then, being able to lay a flarepath. Sometimes the oldest tricks in the book are those that can save the day. Trouble is, those that remember the 'old tricks' are becoming fewer. Maybe we need to resurrect some of those 'tricks'.

Le Vieux

[capt_akun]

Maybe we need to resurrect some of those 'tricks'.

Where's John Mclean when we needed him?!

[Eastwest Loco]

Yeah Buster - shut down both and just loiter until daybreak!:E

Was out at DPOKK today for the official function to welcome the Q400. The A/C has been doing DPO for a couple of weeks but this was the glad hand job and very nicely done.

In typical fashion it was urinating down with up to 8 Octres at about 400 feet - rolling delays all day and VH-QOH (the dogs dick) came in downwind about 30 minutes over block time. Never plan a function around an aeroplane arrival. Minor downwind only - about 10 knots of Nor Easter.

God wasn't invited to one once, and makes sure WX/Sericeability/Nuclear War/Unions will intervene.

Worrals - Those days are dead - we just found a runway light and sat a pot next to it. Easy. It was a clear night - not to be considered with marginal WX.

It was also an adventure - Wilkie and I storming down the runway in the posession of the magic fire and light, a clear calm night, a trillion stars and aeroplanes in the circuit. Boys own delight.

The newbies these days just do not understand what they are missing.

I missed New Guinea by a few years on the Traffic/Res side, but I guess my generation got its "moments" as well.

Best all

EWL

[No Body]

Apparently there was a power failure at the airport about 30min prior to last light.

Some terminal lights and power came back on, whilst others didn't.

No aerodrome lights were able to be activated by PAL. When ground crew activated the manual emergency switch the aerodrome beacon and T-Vasis illuminated, but no runway edge or end lighting.

Weather at WYY was below the alternate minima.

[Worrals in the wilds]

So EWL (and any others in the know)...

I googled 'flare pot' and didn't get a lot, and all I've really heard about them is they frequently went Bang.

How did they work? Were they kerosene?
How long did they last?

God wasn't invited to one once, and makes sure WX/Sericeability/Nuclear War/Unions will intervene.

ROFLMAO. How true. There will also be something unique yet critical about that type of aircraft that nobody in PR thought of, possibly because their knowledge of aeroplanes was limited to collecting free promo model ones. :hmm:

[Eastwest Loco]

Sort of like an oil can without a handle - a couple of ltres capacity.

Fibreglass wick and filled with kero. Lasted about 2 hours.

Propensity to go bang magnified by being hauled at 20-30-kph on an open barrow behing a Toyota Tug.

Best regards

EWL

[ZEEBEE]

Not having a demonstrated and scheduled test for standby power is another hole in the Swiss cheese (stands to Reason doesn't it?).

Sooner or later the holes WILL line up and there will be all sorts of people ducking for cover.

As for the flare pots, another esteemed Pruner and I used to have a great time helping to put them out at Whyalla in the late 50's.

It took long enough with our help (about an hour and a half to deploy), let alone if the sole groundsman had to have driven the tractor and position the pots.

What I'm saying by that is that I wouldn't want to whizzing around chewing up Avgas waiting for it to happen even assuming the groundsman was immediately available.

[Eastwest Loco]

Two blokes and a de governed tug and you can have a strip the length of DPO laid in 20 minutes.

A tractor? Much longer I feel.

I was driving and the Wiz was doing the sprinting back and forward.

Apart from a couple of minor explosions, it was fine - and a bucketload of fun.

I guess OHS would have a lot to say about that these days. Shame that - you do not seem to be allowed to just "get out and do it" any more. The current generation cannot understand what a real operation is, or was.

Two blokes, opposing airlines just trying to save the companies some bucks. Gotta love that.

Best all

EWL

[Dog One]

I can remember the days of he flare pot trailers at different places, pots had to be checked weekly if not used. Depending on the location, it was the fire service, or FSU officers, or the groundsman.

Understand now the pots have been replaced by battery operated flares. Quicker to lay, no lighting the wicks, no bangs when shaken about! Just some one has to check the batteries on a regular basis.

On one occasion at DPO, broke visual off the VAR approach at minima, turned left to line up on 06 and 300' poof - total black. Missed approach carried out, flags on the VAR, ADF's dead. Fortunately we had plenty of fuel and the FS called out the DCA electrican, who knicked the back up generator into life. The fault was initially caused by a pole going down in an accident, which took out most of Devonport and Latrobe.

The fire service at DPO were ready to lay a flare path, but being night and no aids, we were content to hold for th 30 mins it took to get the show up and running. It we had been on minimum fuel, we would have overshot to LT rather than hold.

TE3 - sometimes its not the crew, once had trouble getting the lights on, my side wouldn't trigger the PAL, co-pilot's side wouldn't do it, but the jump seat triggered with out any problem. Change of PT switches cured that problem. I also understood that the PAL system must have manual switching to cover the possibility of radio failure etc. Thats why the requirement to have some one on the ground.

VAR = Visual Aural Range

[Normasars]

Hey Eastwest LOCO,

Any news/gossip re the Q400 going to HBA in Sept. A lot of scuttlebutt going around that it will be doing the o/night from Sept. Mainline outa there.

Can you provide any "inside info" WRT the reservation/forward bookings/time tables etc.

And yep, there was definitely terminal lighting only the other night; zero WRT apron,runway,taxiway

Norma

[Animalclub]

Why bother with a flare path.
At Kiunga we used utes once... and I got told off by the pilot 'cos my head lights were shining in his eyes rather than on the runway. Mind you the other ute at the far end had his lights on the runway!! He shouldn't have been flying at that time anyway!!
We learn.

[flywatcher]

Ahh, Dog One, like me, you go back to the seventies.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Incident a few years back at YMHB with the generator not coming on line when the main system failed, B737 diverted back to YMML.

I think you find that kerosene lamps are no longer used due to the OH&S people.

How is the Q400 going on the DPO to ML run EWL?

[Stationair8]

EWL QF2061 should have diverted to Boganville-Wynyard(YWYY) as that is the centre of the universe and sun shines out the airport managers bottom, so no problem with lighting!

[tasdevil.f27]

ouch!:ouch:

Had a run in with him by any chance????

[Eastwest Loco]

Stationair - the logistics would have been a nightmare, much as the management of the Airport.

LST doesn't bite as much.

CLX - The 400 is only on the midday service at the moment - bit of a learning curve over the past week, and some dirty WX have caused a few minor delays but all good. A new type always involves a little learning curve from all involved.

Normasars - The inside word I received was the the Q400 would be used to provide additional seasonal capacity to HBA over peak periods once fleet numbers increase, and a little bit of hub busting. Stand by for further bulletins on that one - no more released until given the green from "Deep Throat".

Best all

EWL

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

EWL, would the Q400 do Devonport to Sydney with a reasonable payload?

[Eastwest Loco]

CLX - full load mate - max BRW. We did it for a warped period with F27-500s when the gnome who wrecked Northern Airlines was involved in screwing Shambles Planning with no probs.

It would be a shade over 2 hours which is well within range, but I will believe it when I see it - would be a great thing for the port, but the main oncarriage ports of OOL and MCY have gone to the dark side. There goes a good deal of your potential load.

Quel domage.

Best all.

EWL

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Sounds a very impressive piece of machinery for the Qlink boys and girls.

Almost has good as the mighty Par Avion Nord Mohawk that serviced DPO during pilot's dispute.

Now if good old Oggy had been in the Flight service unit he could have shouted down QF2061 when the light's failed.

[missing link]

Hey Normas, you are a wayne kerr - no way will you get a gig anyway , they need astronauts to fly at jet like speed (did they mention - with the speed brakes out!)
And whats with you poofters getting the big Q badges and wings - Bloody discrace!!:mad:

[Eastwest Loco]

CLX

I had a beer with Oggy on Anzac Day at the DPO RSL, and he was on the bar on Spirit One when I took my son's car DPO MEL last February.

I will mention that his infinite wisdom and ability to go for coffee has been appreciated.

Oggy is a true gentleman and a gem of the industry. It is a shame that he is not still in it.

EWL

[Normasars]

Missing Link,

Whats with your attitude you clown. I never asked for the wings, badge and pay cheque. But when they offered the 36% pay rise if we agreed to the uniform change, I for one was not going to argue.

Anyway, I know people in the right places at QLINK and I also happen to have a good idea who you are, so don't think that you will be warming a seat in the space ship any time soon. Loser!!!!!!!!!

[missing link]

Normas - real pilots earn the right to wear the BIG "Q" , you and your little playmates are an example of whats wrong with aviation today.............. think you can jump the line and take the place of cadets and other focused professionals... hang your head in shame.....PS I know where you live:cool:

[Dog One]

Seems like it can happen anywhere. Attachment from Business Aviation Weekly Bulletin

Lightning Disrupts Ops at ATL Tower
A lightning strike at the Atlanta Hartsfield air traffic control tower last Thursday night caused power shutdowns, a partial evacuation and significant delays. The strike occurred at 8:29 p.m. local time, according to an FAA Web site, and the tower lost commercial power and the emergency generator failed to start. VFR operations continued, but further disruptions occurred when smoke and fumes necessitated a partial evacuation of the tower.
Commercial power was restored at 9:10 p.m., but the tower again had to revert to VFR operations after a second power outage. Again, the emergency generator had to be manually restarted, and didn't coming on line until 9:53 p.m. The tower stayed on backup power until commercial power stabilized.
There were at least 58 flight diversions caused by the outage, and 128 delays reported by Atlanta TRACON and 123 by Atlanta Center.

[Capn Bloggs]

Another example of slack maintenance/checking. Instead of checking this type of equipment, the authorities are too engrossed in coping red herrings like with the sudden rampant drug addictions/problems of everybody in the aviation industry.:yuk:

[Di_Vosh]

Mate, Long time no see!

DIVOSH!

[Normasars]

G'day D.V.

Hope Mildie is treating you nicely.

Hey Missing Brain, it's because of selfish people like you that the industry is where it's at now. Your "I'm ok Jack" attitude is whats disgraceful.

I will certainly be alerting the recruitment boys about you. Keep trying loser. Q400 for you; "tell 'im 'e's dreamin'".

Stick to you flight sim 2000. You need the practice:D

[missing link]

Normas, I don't need any practice - I happen to have nearly 1300 hrs and almost 40 hours on aztecs, I'm a walk up start to the 400 if I chose to apply.............They need us young go getters to replace you old dinosaurs, face it - you're past your useby date, we are the future for Quantus..............so there:p

[Dixondik]

Normas, I don't need any practice - I happen to have nearly 1300 hrs and almost 40 hours on aztecs, I'm a walk up start to the 400 if I chose to apply.............They need us young go getters to replace you old dinosaurs, face it - you're past your useby date, we are the future for Quantus..............so therehttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Your almost there soldier, keep jogging.