COS09 vrs COS08 HKD$ NUMBERS FOUND HERE:

[cxcrew]

These numbers are based on the following:

Average FO crew age: 34
Pay scales based on FO year: 4
Assumes you have purchased a house based on HKD50000 - 55000/month.
You are half way through the 15 year housing period: Based on 7 years remaining.
Remaining years housing at HKD24000/ month.
Tax in the future increasing to 20%


Seniority: Mid FO range
COS09 takes bypass pay into account after 2 years from now.
COS08 does not include future bypass pay.

The amounts are from Now, April 2009 till the end of either contract.
The numbers do NOT take into account EEP / Fund93B

COS1999Total to RA55
HK$37,331,028.00
Less tax 20%HK$7,466,205.60
NETHK$29,864,822.40

--------------------------

COS2008 (New)Total to RA65
HK$56,287,884.00
Less tax 20%HK$11,257,576.80
NETHK$45,030,307.20

--------------------------

TOTAL GAIN over 10 years
HK$18,956,856.00
HK$3,791,371.20 (TAX)
HK$15,165,484.80 (Gain)

-------------------------

EACH YEAR GAIN OVER 55
HK$1,895,685.60
HK$379,137.12 (TAX)
HK$1,516,548.48

-----------------------

MONTHLY
HK$157,973.80
HK$31,594.76 (TAX)
HK$126,379.04

-----------------------


If you wish, send me your actual info & I can calculate it. I have a spread sheet based on the CX COS09 & COS09 pay scales.

I hope this info helps.

[sirhcttarp]

First Post? ok either you're a Manager in disguise or you're truly a newbie. I'll assume you're the latter.

Please look at the NPV (net present value) function in excel which requires an input of an assumed rate of inflation/return/interest and a time frame from present from which to calculate the compound interest rate, and then apply it to each individual year of earning. Or if you wish you can more accurately calculate it using a monthly income and a monthly rate of inflation/return/interest. Once you find the NET PRESENT VALUE of the future stream of income from COS99 and COS08, then you will have an accurate comparison of Apples to Apples.

If you want to figure out the amount gained per year after 55 yrs you'll have to use the NPV function on each individual month/year of earning after 55 and you'll find that unless the rate of inflation/interest/return is "2%", it'll be steadily decreasing stream especially since the annual increments on Captain payscale increases at 2% (maybe even less) and it stops after 18 years which means after 18 years your income decreases by the rate of inflation annually.

Management would like you to calculate your earnings simply based on your method so that you will sign on to COS08 without realizing what you're doing.

Also you are unnecessarily complicating things by adding a variable factor such as Tax into it.

For more information on NPV... you can read it on wikipedia.

[Loopdeloop]

Hi cxcrew
Please would you do the calculations for both CoS's ending at age 55.

[climbout]

By signing COS 99 you will still be able to work till 65 (if you want) -
by LAW!!. So there is no reason at all to sign COS 08!

[turnandburn]

those numbers are very simplistic as the real inflation in HK is probably around 7%. Its pie in the sky stuff, to many assumptions.

[treboryelk]

give cxcrew a break for having a go.......

too many assumptions........assuming what is happening in 15 years is a big enough assumption to make all others pretty irrelevant

[1500smooth]

good try cxcrew.

But i think I will wait and take the bypass pay now (I am a FO and 35) maybe I will sign over with COS14 or maybe COS19 or for that matter COS24.

[sirhcttarp]

Basically it says if you think inflation will run at 7.0% and you're 35 years old, working to 55 on COS99 will earn 20% less than working to 65 on COS08

See below for details.

Assumptions
All capt signs over to COS08 therefore 10 yrs to CMD for new FO
5 years of BPP
FO age 35 yrs
FO1 salary scale
assume 7.0% inflation

Cumulative Earnings No Inflation
COS 99 COS 08
23781564.00 39047972.00


Cumulative NPV Earnings
COS 99 COS 08
10954327.25 13046645.91

Age Yr.Income 99 Yr.Income 08
35 794316 794316
36 807636 807636
37 821232 821232
38 835104 835104
39 863400 863400
40 1215912 885456
41 1215912 908184
42 1215912 931584
43 1215912 955704
44 1215912 1215912
45 1240236 1240236
46 1265052 1265052
47 1290348 1290348
48 1316160 1316160
49 1342476 1342476
50 1369332 1369332
51 1396716 1396716
52 1424652 1424652
53 1453140 1453140
54 1482204 1482204
55 0000000 1511844
56 0000000 1542072
57 0000000 1572812
58 0000000 1604364
59 0000000 1636452
60 0000000 1669176
61 0000000 1702560
62 0000000 1736616
63 0000000 1736616
64 0000000 1736616

[sirhcttarp]

Here's another example.
same assumption as before, all capt sign over to cos08, 10 yrs to cmd, 5 years BPP this time assume 7% inflation

So what this is saying is that if you think inflation will be 7.0% you're an FO at 30 yrs old on first year salary. Your total earnings to 55 on COS99 will be about 11% less than total earnings to 65 on COS08.


Cumulative Earnings No Inflation
COS 99 COS 08
31649108.00 47731052.00


Cumulative NPV Earnings
COS 99 COS 08
12508332.60 13920847.23

Age Yr.Income 99 Yr.Income 08
30 794316 794316
31 807636 807636
32 821232 821232
33 835104 835104
34 863400 863400
35 1215912 885456
36 1215912 908184
37 1215912 931584
38 1215912 955704
39 1215912 1215912
40 1240236 1240236
41 1265052 1265052
42 1290348 1290348
43 1316160 1316160
44 1342476 1342476
45 1369332 1369332
46 1396716 1396716
47 1424652 1424652
48 1453140 1453140
49 1482204 1482204
50 1511844 1511844
51 1542072 1542072
52 1572812 1572812
53 1604364 1604364
54 1636452 1636452
55 0000000 1669176
56 0000000 1702560
57 0000000 1736616
58 0000000 1736616
59 0000000 1736616
60 0000000 1736616
61 0000000 1736616
62 0000000 1736616
63 0000000 1736616
64 0000000 1736616

[hongkongpilot]

40 1215912 1240236

sirhcttarp,
How come you can get a command earlier if on COS08 ?:confused:
Or you assume that no command for COS99.:suspect:

[flatlands744]

I did a quick back of a fag packet calculation and worked on the principle that I was going to jack in this pastime when I reach 60. Basically I came to the conclusion that I would not be any worse off staying on COS99 and taking the BPP when triggered and then taking a "lesser" paid job at 55, compared to if I sign up to COS08. Also I feel it is a risk worth taking staying put and see what comes up over the next few years - we get a new COS every 2 years so it's bound to change again:}

[sirhcttarp]

adjusting posts now...

[sirhcttarp]

FO YR 1 Age 35 Time to Cmd 10 years 5 years to BPP 5% inflation
working to age 60 on COS 08
working to age 55 on COS99


Cumulative Earnings No Inflation
COS 99 COS 08
23781564.00 30466388.00


Cumulative NPV Earnings
COS 99 COS 08
13403234.05 15057643.91

Age Yr.Income 99 Yr.Income 08
35 794316 794316
36 807636 807636
37 821232 821232
38 835104 835104
39 863400 863400
40 1215912 885456
41 1215912 908184
42 1215912 931584
43 1215912 955704
44 1215912 1215912
45 1240236 1240236
46 1265052 1265052
47 1290348 1290348
48 1316160 1316160
49 1342476 1342476
50 1369332 1369332
51 1396716 1396716
52 1424652 1424652
53 1453140 1453140
54 1482204 1482204
55 0000000 1511844
56 0000000 1542072
57 0000000 1572812
58 0000000 1604364
59 0000000 1636452

[sirhcttarp]

This example assumes 5% inflation

Income compares working to 55 on COS99 and working to 60 on COS08


FO Year 1 Age 30
BPP 5 RA 60
Years to Cmd 10


Cumulative Earnings No Inflation
COS 99 COS 08
31649108.00 39047972.00


Cumulative NPV Earnings
COS 99 COS 08
15843800.75 17145440.16

Age Yr.Income 99 Yr.Income 08
30 794316 794316
31 807636 807636
32 821232 821232
33 835104 835104
34 863400 863400
35 1215912 885456
36 1215912 908184
37 1215912 931584
38 1215912 955704
39 1215912 1215912
40 1240236 1240236
41 1265052 1265052
42 1290348 1290348
43 1316160 1316160
44 1342476 1342476
45 1369332 1369332
46 1396716 1396716
47 1424652 1424652
48 1453140 1453140
49 1482204 1482204
50 1511844 1511844
51 1542072 1542072
52 1572812 1572812
53 1604364 1604364
54 1636452 1636452
55 0000000 1669176
56 0000000 1702560
57 0000000 1736616
58 0000000 1736616
59 0000000 1736616

[sirhcttarp]

This assumes an inflation rate of 5%

it basically says that working to 55 on COS99 will be about HKD900,000 less than working to 57 on COS08... i.e. about 1.5 yrs work for free.

FO Year 2 Age 30
BPP 5 RA 57
Years to Cmd 10
Cumulative Earnings No Inflation
COS 99 COS 08
31740248.00 34024340.00


Cumulative NPV Earnings
COS 99 COS 08
15917668.83 16075690.81

Age Yr.Income 99 Yr.Income 08
30 807636 807636
31 821232 821232
32 835104 835104
33 863400 863400
34 885456 885456
35 1215912 908184
36 1215912 931584
37 1215912 955704
38 1215912 980532
39 1215912 1215912
40 1240236 1240236
41 1265052 1265052
42 1290348 1290348
43 1316160 1316160
44 1342476 1342476
45 1369332 1369332
46 1396716 1396716
47 1424652 1424652
48 1453140 1453140
49 1482204 1482204
50 1511844 1511844
51 1542072 1542072
52 1572812 1572812
53 1604364 1604364
54 1636452 1636452
55 0000000 1669176
56 0000000 1702560

[Sqwak7700]

Using different retirement ages is not comparing apples to apples. That is assuming one very big variable, that retirement age will never come up again. It is highly probable that retirement issue will definitely come up again.

Compare both retiring at 55 or both at 65, or even cos99 Bscale to 55, then freighter to 65 against cos08 to 65. There are still guys getting extended, so don't think for a second that if everyone where to vote down COS08 it would come to a grinding halt.

Otherwise you are just using up web-space :rolleyes:

[sirhcttarp]

Hey squawk, I know that, I'm just defining the boundaries of the problem.

Worst case scenario is that there is no extension on cos99. Using these examples you'll know where you stand.

So using this as a baseline, you can then hedge your bets on the likelihood of an extension in the future for guys on COS99 and make your decision.

[BillytheKid]

It is relevant to determine whether or not one will retire at 55 or later. I believe that retirement is governed by law for those that are based and therefore, you do not need to sign to CoS09 to get age 65.

Given that premise, it should be reasonable to conclude that both scales can continue to age 65 and that CoS99 is far superior to the current offer.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I see no value in changing to CoS09 for me.

[Aibo]

Folks, a question on allocation of BPP(no matter COS99 or COS08):
Assume 100 extendees triggered 100 BPP, and the 100th F/O(i.e. the last one who is within the trigger) got Cat D-ed, is the company obligated to pay BPP to the 101st F/O(non-catD) or the company only need to pay 99 BPP? Coz' the contract says " the next most senior F/O" should get it, but the 101st is not within the trigger....any idea?

[Old China Driver]

CX will offer 65 again, whether volountarily or through legislation. Any FO who is younger than 50 would see no benefit in settling for this abomination. During COS94, the non-signers were told they would never get a base. Needless to say, that provision was soon forgotten. Don't let the CX bully-boys manipulate you into signing away your career. This is without doubt the most ill-concieved proposal I have ever seen...and i've seen many ill-concieved proposals in my years here. I am sure management would take issue with that comment...but that would be in spite of all the evidence to the contrary now wouldn't it...?

OCD

[T101]

How do you figure how many years to Command, or how many years on BPP for people on various CoS? There are just too many factors to consider here; the neglected big one is the rate of company's expansion (or lack of it) in the future.

The BPP is triggered if a senior guy gets extended, right? What if most are working till age 60-65 and don't need to be extended? If BPP is triggered for other reasons, then it should apply to all - the bit about bypass pay is not changed in the CoS08.

Just trying to understand this - right now it doesn't look like there is any hidden dangers in signing over...

[Five Green]

Log on to the AOA site as it is all explained very well there...........

It is also being discussed in detail on the forums.....

If you can that is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Or if not try your luck with #pnl

Cheers

[Harbour Dweller]

As Five Green said,

All the FACTUAL answers are on the AOA forums.

Join up.. :ok: