Other staffs' perception of Pilot Group

[bushcat400]

Has the FAU endorsed SLS? I think they have asked the question why some pilots have to do it and why some can opt out. They clearly won't regard that as fair.

Have all the other office staff/ground staff/engineers etc. etc. endorsed and signed up for it? I don't think we will know this for a while yet. At least not until the weekly crap put out by NR.

But what happens to their perception of us as a group when they have to do it or feel "compelled" to do it by the company through its bullying tactics...and those who earn more don't do it? Maybe they will respect the stand we take...unlikely.

NOT saying we should sign up for SLS on that basis...merely posing the question as this is the forum for it. I believe we should not sign up for SLS. But I think there will be fall out from not doing it, and not from just the company.

I think we could expect even worse service on the flight deck...and possible free of charge extras' to our food :}

Thoughts ???

[Air Profit]

...ummm...WHO CARES...??? I am not responsible for the ill-informed opinion of other LESS IMPORTANT staff. :mad:

[spannersatcx]

And that Air Profit is why you are thought of as arrogant self centred :mad: who don't care about anyone but themselves.

[slowdownnow]

I am being asked to take a 17% paycut for 6 months - Can you imagine if CX tried to impose this on all of its staff? The airline would grind to a halt overnight!

So The FAU are being to asked something much different to us

[bushcat400]

You must have only 3 brain cells...s**t only happens when they collide...and given the cavernous empty space in your head, they clearly don't collide that often :mad:

Point is whatever other staff are being asked to do, SLS or not, they are still going to be doing something :ugh:
They will probably be bullied into doing it, this we know.

How will we be perceived if we as a group tell the company to shove it, by our "other LESS IMPORTANT staff" ? - to quote Air Profit.

ALL EMPLOYEES should tell the company to shove SLS or whatever "share the pain" scheme the company has cooked up for them. The compnay needs to financially demonstrate a clear need for it. THEY HAVE NOT DONE SO.

[Air Profit]

As a once very respected ex fleet manager once said at a company propaganda meeting, 'its like Wimbledon....the players always make more money than the ball boys'... If you can't figure that out, you really don't value yourselves very well. In any organisation, there are people, who, due to their training, investment in years, level of 'replaceability', and many other metrics of 'value', are MORE IMPORTANT than other employees. It was not meant as a derogatory term, only a defined description of fact in the market place. I used the terminology deliberately, of course expecting the usual emotional rants that were posted in reply. Figure out what your worth, then be proud of it...and more importantly, negotiate based on it. I'm worth more to CX than the cleaners...and that is the way the world works. If you don't like the hard facts....well, go cry to your mommies.! :{

[Midnight Rambler]

Air Profit, you give us all a bad name.

[N1 Vibes]

I like being "LESS IMPORTANT" because I don't get looked at as a w@nker by other people....

[Cafe City]

AP
Your humility is underwhelming.
Life has a wonderful way of bringing us all down to the "ball boy" level at some stage. Lets hope not a minute is wasted in delivering that moment to you.
We will all look on and applaud.

[Air Profit]

:zzz::zzz:

[Dragon69]

Air profit has a point but could have put it more eloquently. Since when has one group cared about another here at Cathay, just observe how any staff is treated at the staff travel counters. And N1 Vibes get off your high horse, you're an engineer and a number one pilot hater, so don't pretend you actually care about any pilot or any other group.

[hongkongpilot]

LESS IMPORTANT staff

Just remember something from Bible:
1 Corinthians
Chapter 12

For the body is not one part, but a number of parts. If the foot says, Because I am not the hand, I am not a part of the body; it is no less a part of the body. And if the ear says, Because I am not the eye, I am not a part of the body; it is a part of the body all the same. If all the body was an eye, where would be the hearing? if all was hearing, where would be the smelling?
.
.
.
And the eye may not say to the hand, I have no need of you: or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. No, those parts which seem to be feeble are the more necessary; And to those parts of the body which seem to have less honour we give all the more honour; and to those parts of the body which are a cause of shame to us we give the greater respect; But those parts of the body which are beautiful have no need of such care: and so the body has been joined together by God in such a way as to give more honour to those parts which had need of it; So that there might be no division in the body; but all the parts might have the same care for one another. And if there is pain in one part of the body, all the parts will be feeling it; or if one part is honoured, all the parts will be glad.

Hopefully the senior management understand too.;)

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

You can get away with dirty aeroplanes for a while... however, I'd love to see how you even try to figure out how to close up the cargo doors, hook up the towbar and tug, fuel the aircraft, and the most funniest thing I've ever seen in my life is a very arrogant senior pilot having a go at pushing the aircraft off the gate and attempting to unhook the towbar from the aircraft! :ok: And let's don't pretend you have the slightest clue about the airworthiness of the aircraft you're about to take out flying without the engineer telling you it is! And that's just to go flying empty! You cannot function without the rest of them YOU consider less important than you. I can only hope you keep your f'ing arrogance under wraps around the other employee groups. Not that I care about the disrespect and disregard you get from them, in fact I myself would give it to you, you are deserving of it. I only hope at least I don't get stereotyped and treated as you should when I have nothing but respect and regard for the other employee groups I work with after they read your crap.

[Saw San]

The FAU has just pulled support for the SLS pending appropriate disclosure and consultation with the company. Many are unhappy about the apparent unfairness of the SLS particularly in relation to: part time workers; workers that are payed by the hour; as well as the pilot's conditional deal. Suggestions are being made that all unions should at least meet to discuss SLS and implications for members.

[the reo]

hooray for the FAU
Couldn't agree more with them

[GE90115BL2]

N1 Vibes.

You have been placed in my ignore list with the others that i don't wish to waste any more time on.

Now go back to that desk in hello kitty city you call work and DO SOME.

[blade]

How are we spoilt.When bonuses come we get less on a % of monthly income and when it comes to SLS we get asked to pay more on a % basis.When you think about it we always carry the can!!!!!!!

[Frogman1484]

Who cares what the other staff think of us.

Would they give up 15% of their monthly salary so that you could remain in the cockpit...I do not think so!!!

[hongkongfooey]

Hey, we can't do without the spanner turners but the rest of the crap you mentioned even try to figure out how to close up the cargo doors, hook up the towbar and tug, fuel the aircraft, and the most funniest thing I've ever seen in my life is a very arrogant senior pilot having a go at pushing the aircraft off the gate and attempting to unhook the towbar from the aircraft!
can be learned by my mum in about 5 minutes, takes a bit longer than that ( 10 mins ) to safely operate an A/C.
But yes, it could have been put a little more subtly.

Since when has one group cared about another here at Cathay, just observe how any staff is treated at the staff travel counters

Spot on :ok:

[bushcat400]

"Who cares what the other staff think of us"

Definite management material...both of you.

That's the exact attitude management have had regarding their bonuses over the years...

Don't complain when you have unexpected case of the runs after eating or drinking your meals and drinks on board :ok:

[Air Profit]

Yes...I could have put it more eloquently. I deliberately worded my post as I did to drive home a very simple point: we are the most highly trained, at the most cost. We are the most difficult to replace. We have the the longest careers and associated risk involved in such. Most of us are the main breadwinners (unlike most of the cabin crew who are here for a few years, and/or have a husband, generally speaking of course). Whether or not a local chinese ramp worker is 'happy' with me is something I couldn't care less about. I do my job, I put many hours into my training, and I safely assure the companies reputation. When it comes to matters of career and renumeration, my and my family's interests come first. So...as I originally said, I don't really 'care' what others think. If the other staff groups are 'happy' being bought off by suggesting that a sacrifice of hdk $1500 in total is sufficient, then good for them. Don't expect me to make a REAL sacrifice just to make those groups 'happy' with me...! I will make my decisions based on my own best interest. How about you...?

[TungLung]

Well, very honestly everyone will be making his decision based on his own circumstance. I guess this forum is the perfect place for Air Profit to make such comments because he will never have the balls to say it in front of other "less important" colleagues.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 69,

my response of being "a w@nker" for the comments of "less important people" was direct to Air Profit - it was not a generic response to the 'pilot community', you seem to have formed a complex that all pilots are tarred with the same brush - as you yourself have tarred all engineers....

GE90,

won't miss you either.

Love and Kisses,

N1 Vibes

[bobrun]

Fos and Sos are being asked to give away BPP with the new contract, which is worth about a FULL year of captain's salary, or about 1 million HKD. I think that's more than enough and expecting them participate in SLS is non sense.

In any case, with RA65, commands are now at about 15-20 years from DOJ. Just do the math. Many FOs (average age of 35) will now see their command only when approaching their FIFTIES or into their fifties! That alone represent lots of $$$.

With all due respect, FOs and SOs are the ones giving the most. The fact that SLS is optional isn't the whole story. Get informed.:sad:

[boxjockey]

Kitsune,

If you made your comment to the poster above, then you are a f@cking pr!ck. If it was meant for someone else, then please explain. I'm pretty sure you are either a retread or nearing it, so you get your cake and eat it too, while the rest are staring at the bottom of a sh!t-stained toilet. Cheers buddy!!

box

[N1 Vibes]

Kitsune - spot on.

For those people who see their 'career' as a one way street, welcome to the real world. Just about the only person who get's a one way career these days (with almost no choice) is the Queen - she's in it from birth till she pop's her clogs. For the rest of you if the grass is not green where you are then you have the freedom to consider moving on. If you choose to stay on the brown grass then you may just become bitter. Just because your mates stayed at the same airline for 600 years and retired with a castle on a small island in Tahiti - doesn't mean that you have to meekly attempt to follow the same path - in a keeping up with the joneses manner. If you think that perhaps your family will be gutted or suffer with less, equally this is part of life.

And finally - working for the same company all the time - get's pretty f#kin boring......

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

N1 vibes, but where as you can leave Cathay and take your experience with you and join another airline at relatively the same position and pay, we have a little thing called seniority, so unfortunately, easier said than done.

Kitsune, coming from a pilot that was a very dumb statement.

[Dragon69]

Irony obviously not a strong suit then.....


you expect people to deduce irony from a single statement If you don't like it... leave :confused::confused:. Sorry but the message came across as moronic rather than ironic.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 68,

ironies are quite my favourite subject. The fact that as a pilot the further up the pole one climbs, the more seniority one gets and the more money. The less likely one is to move to another company/country because one will lose seniority and therefore money.

So as pointed out previously you won't move - because it's all about the money.....sorry seniority(!)

As for us non-pole-climbers - we are free to keep our CV's updated and our passports ready. How ironic.

Bon Voyage!

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

N1 Vibes,

Hypocrisy must be your favorite topic as well then. The mere fact that you've come to Hong Kong to live and work as an expat tells me that you did so purely for financial benefits (if not that..then FLTH comes to mind)...so please don't sit there and tell me that it's not all about money to you.

But again, you can leave Cathay for Emirates and maintain a similar lifestyle since your salary will more or less stay equivalent (you did say it was all about lifestyle in a different thread didn't you). Not so for us!!!! What part of that is so hard to understand??????? I can translate it in French if you wish :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 67,

ooh it's so eeeeeeeeaaasy to draw the 'big fish' out of their holes....

How clever that you have been able to check out my previous thread comments - but you still don't know me I'm afraid. You really are second guessing that I am a 'typical expat'. How pathetic and sad.

When I came here the money was actually the same as where I came from and then it became less - so no I didn't come because of the money - I came because of the job (lovely that I can do that isn't it?).

FLTH - what's that?

Lifestyle - you equate this to salary - of course you would. If you re-read my previous comments it's about getting a 'life' - style was never a part of it.

The fact that some people, perhaps this includes you personally, only feel good with a certain number of zero's in their wage packet is quite fascinating to me - but not attractive.

Of course translating into French would be very impressive - but the point of using 'Bon Voyage' in my previous post is that I am hoping that you, or others further up the pole, get the idea that if the grass isn't greener here - then get on that plane/boat and sail off into another sunset, f$ck the seniority and get a life (note the word style is again missing here).

Maybe consider this quote:

"Is a life spent looking for the best deal a life well spent?"

Or are there more important things out there than money...

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

No actually N1 Vibes what is really sad is the fact that you are a bigger hypocrite than I originally thought and a bull sh:mad:er to boot.


but you still don't know me I'm afraid. You really are second guessing that I am a 'typical expat'


Yes it is really eeeaaaasy to spot your kind, the brit who comes to hong kong, is somewhat socially inept, learns a few words of Cantonese, lives in a local area, dates a local girl that even the the locals wouldn't even touch, and then considers himself so much better than the rest of the expats.

FLTH- Failed London Try Hong Kong...


When I came here the money was actually the same as where I came from and then it became less - so no I didn't come because of the money - I came because of the job


Yes you've kept the same salary by coming here, but would you have come if the salary offered was 1/2 or 1/3 of what you were previously making?? If your answer is NO, then you've just completely contradicted yourself! If your answer is YES, then as a loyal employee and one that has a LIFE, I challenge you to give half of your salary back to Cathay. But no way thats going to happen, you prefer standing on that pedestal and preaching Bull Sh:mad:t looking like a big man!

I am hoping that you, or others further up the pole, get the idea that if the grass isn't greener here - then get on that plane/boat and sail off into another sunset, f$ck the seniority and get a life (note the word style is again missing here).

So let me get this straight, you expect an employee group that have worked for a company for 10 - 20 years to just pack up and leave as opposed to staying and fighting to preserve current conditions?????

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 66,

Yes you've kept the same salary by coming here, but would you have come if the salary offered was 1/2 or 1/3 of what you were previously making??

When I leave HKG I will very likely be leaving for a lot less pay - life and job satisfaction means a lot to some people. To others it's just about the money.

So let me get this straight, you expect an employee group that have worked for a company for 10 - 20 years to just pack up and leave as opposed to staying and fighting to preserve current conditions?????

Since said 'employee group' (or individual - it's only those people who see themselves as 'the union' that have a difficulty with this concept of individualism - i.e. being able to occasionally make their own decision outside of 'the union' norm - the majority is not always right) have been 'fighting' (I saw no industrial action etc) for the last few years (that would be a significant chunk of a 10 year career at CX) and said 'employee group' haven't got the agreement to swing their way yet. I'd say that you ether sit and 'fight' (sorry stand and fight) or if you are tired of waiting and money isn't the most important thing in your life then you could move off for less money and perhaps a better working environment (better life) - grass is greener.

dates a local girl that even the the locals wouldn't even touch

As for your personal abuse, I'm quite happy to take your onslaught directed at me - but I would prefer that you leave my wife out of it. You big bully.:{

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

When I leave HKG I will very likely be leaving for a lot less pay - life and job satisfaction means a lot to some people. To others it's just about the money.



You do enjoy sounding so noble and righteous don't you! Well, don't bull sh:mad:t a bull sh:mad:er, you're here as an expat for the exact same reason as all of us...you're here for the MONEY! Otherwise by now you would have been retired in a small beach hut in Palawan enjoying the easy life, and not having two cents to rub together. But something tells me you're going to be around for quite some time.


if you are tired of waiting and money isn't the most important thing in your life then you could move off for less money and perhaps a better working environment (better life)


Wait I am confused now, when you said "better life" did you actually mean life or lifestyle??? Because in your previous post you tried to explain how the two are not connected :confused::confused::confused:.

Unfortunately, and sad as it may be, what you don't get is the fact that "better life" requires money. From the slum dogs in Mumbai to a shop owner in East London, we all have the same goal, earn more money to earn a better living. Anyone that says otherwise if full of it!

So hence we have come full circle again, you can leave for another airline whilst roughly keeping your salary, so it is much easier for you to sit there and preach "if you don't like it then leave", if we had that luxury many of us would not be here today.

However, I do agree with you that we've never stood up to take action, but that goes back to what sqwak7700 previously said about a certain groups or group at Cathay.

[Busbert]

Dragon69 you are a disgrace to your profession.
It should be a concern to the travelling public to hear the insane rantings of a 'professional pilot' such as yourself.

[Dragon69]

Hey Assbert, do you really think I give a sh:mad:t what you think you pompous pr:mad:k.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 65,

Wait I am confused now, when you said "better life" did you actually mean life or lifestyle???

Oh dear the wheels really are coming off aren't they.

Are you unable to see the difference between the following words:

- "lifestyle"
- "life"

There's really no hope in you understanding anything that I am writing...

–the habits, attitudes, tastes, moral standards, economic level, etc., that together constitute the mode of living of an individual or group.

- the condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.

Which one is most important to you life or lifestyle?

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

Oh that's so cute N1vibes counting down from 69 with each post!

This whole discussion began by your comment of, "if you don't like it, leave". I tried to explain to you that it is easier said than done, especially when you're in seniority based system. You then reply that for most pilots it is about money, because if we didn't care about money we wouldn't care about seniority, and we would simply leave.

Well with logic like that how can I possibly argue??:ugh::ugh: And you think my wheels are coming off??? Mate your wheels fell off a looooong time ago!

So let me ask you N1, if you get a blatantly unfair bill from your mobile provider of HK $20,000, do you a. grudgingly pay the bill? b. dispute the bill? or c. pack up and leave HKG the very next day?

Which will it be N1, can't wait for the answer!

[Busbert]

Dragon69
With the chip on your shoulder, your wonderful personality (no doubt translates into *wonderful CRM style*), you have got to be a 'Cat C' no hoper, with a trail of destruction in the relationship department and more ex wives than wedding anniversaries.

[volarecantare]

What a run N1 and Dragon......have me in stitches laughing.... :D


Did you two used to date???

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 64 1/2 (because 1/2's are so important at that age),

so let's see if you can convince me and the other non-pilots (after all this is what this thread is about perception's of the non-pilot group) what it is about seniority that is so very important to you - if it's not about the money or lifestyle?

If your response has anything to do with prestige/status or being more important etc, then I believe you might start getting close to what non-pilots observe about you.

As for your question on the mobile bill - fortunately the HK law is pretty good so one would at least have somewhere to appeal to instead of standing in the corner ranting into my shandy. If what you have a problem with, within the confines of CX City, is not covered by the law in HK then whinge on brother/comrade. Because I don't think the 9/F is hearing too well...

If you haven't worked out that CX over time tends to get what it wants by ways and means, then you really aren't using your powers of observation.

Wake up and smell the P45 that just landed on your doormat.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

so let's see if you can convince me and the other non-pilots (after all this is what this thread is about perception's of the non-pilot group) what it is about seniority that is so very important to you - if it's not about the money or lifestyle?


Yeah N1 money and lifestyle are not important to you, I have heard enough BS from you!


If your response has anything to do with prestige/status or being more important etc, then I believe you might start getting close to what non-pilots observe about you.



You and your engineer buddy assbert really did fail pilot school didn't you.

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 63,

you didn't answer the question about why seniority was so important to you:

Yeah N1 money and lifestyle are not important to you, I have heard enough BS from you!

Was my suggestion that for you personally seniority is linked to money and lifestyle touched a raw nerve? After all I am a non-pilot wishing to understand a representative of the 'pilot community'.....

I also detect the slightest hint of superiority in your comment:

You and your engineer buddy assbert really did fail pilot school didn't you.

Well done to you, you made it through pilot school - look at yourself now - sat in HKG wailing and gnashing your teeth. Me - fail pilot school - no. Would I want to be sat for 15hrs, at the front of a metal tube, 40,000ft off the ground, listening to your opinions? Go on have a wild guess...

Superiority is not the prettiest of characteristics that one can possess. You will note that history is littered with 'superior' people. Most of them ended up being considered idiots, or dead in useless wars.

You still haven't worked me out yet. You're asking me all the wrong questions and not answering any of mine. You could actually be an 'ambassador' for the pilot community on this very public forum and answer the questions of a 'non-pilot' so that we can understand you.

Hoping you will answer the question directly this time.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[The Professor]

"We are the most difficult to replace."

Not any more. CX could have you replaced in the blink of an eye. CAD would ensure such a move would proceed easily.

"Most of us are the main breadwinners"

Market forces, that dictate your salary, do not care how much you "need". Such forces will remunerate you based on what you can provide regardless of how little your partner makes. But nice try.

"Fos and Sos are being asked to give away BPP"

Shock horror. Did you think such an absurd thing as BPP would last forever?

[Busbert]

Yeah I failed pilot school becase I was so bored sh1tless sitting in a darkened cupboard waiting for nothing to happen that I fell asleep.

So I decided to do something with my life rather than persue a commodity job like a pilot.

In my family business we employed truck drivers. We never employed guys that were too bright, as they would get bored. I guess same thing goes for pilots.

[Dragon69]

N1 Vibes,

You're starting to talk rubbish and you are arguing for arguments sake and this is my last post on this subject.

Seniority is directly linked to experience. You seem to think it is fine for a senior Captain to leave Cathay and be employed at BA as a Second Officer earning a Second Officer's salary. Because after all that is what you are suggesting are you not? Your message is, who cares about money you should get a life and go work elsewhere at the bottom of the seniority list. Never mind the experience gained over the past 20 years it shouldn't mean anything!!!

A friend who is a computer engineer has held jobs with 8 different companies in the past 13 years, with each job he received a better package. He receives this better package, not because he is such a swell fellow, but because it is commensurate with his experience level. And hooray that is one of the goals in life isn't? Get a higher education, get experience and get a better paying job. But oh no, not our beloved and noble N1, he returns most of his salary back to his employer, he is not addicted to money and lifestyle like us pilots!....Pllleeeeeaaaase spare me!

If experience to you means nothing, and since you've stated that you came to Hong Kong for the love of your job and had nothing to do with money, I am sure you will be quite content if Cathay hires a new engineer fresh out of college and is paid three times more than you. I am sure you will not even raise an eyebrow over it. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

So we come back to a seniority based industry, unlike my friend, I cannot take my experience level and apply it with another airline, not saying it is wrong, cause I do believe in the system, but the point is, which you don't seem to get, is that LEAVING IS THE LEAST FAVORITE OPTION, because you are effectively throwing years of experience away to start at the bottom.


Hey Assbert,

Who has the chip on their shoulder now!!! hahaha I love it :D:D:D

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 62,

so there we have it - you don't want the 'shame' of going back down the pole? And excuse my ignorance - didn't CX employ Direct Entry Captains and Direct Entry First Officers - are you saying that no other airline in the world has ever thought of this?

Google returned quite a few results for other airlines looking for DEFO and DEC's - so your argument of 'losing seniority' doesn't really stand up - does it? I.e. opportunities do exist in other airlines and in other countries - at the same 'level of seniority'.

And hooray that is one of the goals in life isn't? Get a higher education, get experience and get a better paying job.

Now this is progress - your goal in life (as I now understand it) is to try and emulate a computer software engineer - or was that my goal (I'm not sure).

I am sure you will be quite content if Cathay hires a new engineer fresh out of college and is paid three times more than you. I am sure you will not even raise an eyebrow over it.

And finally something that I sincerely hope you have already got a grasp of. If the above situation were to come about - there would be one thing at the forefront of my mind.

At the front of my mind - This engineer fresh out of college will be working in an airline for the first time - I would be very concerned that I gave him as much advice and support as possible - because the safety of an a/c could depend on it.

This reflects the attitude of the airline engineering community - what would the attitude of you be to this situation?

Would you sit there on the flight deck while the 'higher paid' lower ranking colleague just operated the radio and think nothing - or would you sit their and ignore him, festering, because he got a better deal and therefore should have a hard time from you the underpaid pilot?

This is CRM at it's best....

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Busbert]

When does 13 years experience equate to one year of experience 13 times over...?
I guess when you are a pilot.
Groundhog day. No wonder you guys are so bitter and twisted.

[Dragon69]

What's the matter Assbert drank one too many cans of hydraulic fluid.

Pilots Bitter and twisted????..hahaha..you obviously don't socialize with HAECO engineers!

[N1 Vibes]

Dragon 61,

going back to the original question posed by this thread by Bushcat - whether the 'pilot community' should be worried about the perception of themselves. And whether this worry should be as a result of perception within or outside the company.

Your comment of drinking hydraulic fluid - reminded me that your every whim is served by members of the FAU at 40,000ft - Optrex anyone?

Pilots bitter and twisted - well I guess that you in particular are - as your example to me of how you feel about seniority and money - was how would I feel if a less qualified engineer came in at more money. Thinking that like you I would be bitter and twisted.

And my answer to you - is when I am at work my colleagues wages are of no concern - the job comes 1st.

Do you know - I think this could be a real useful test - for CRM. Sit one crabby captain in the simulator, with one straight of flight school pilot newbie, and tell the crabby captain he's just been hired at 3x his pay. The test is then to see how long before the crabby captain breaks into tears, screaming "It's so unfair!".... how long would you last? Not long judging by your continuing desire to erupt on Pprune

As for the opinion outside the company of the pilot community - just get in a taxi and tell the driver you are a Cathay pilot, then get in another taxi and tell him you are a Cathay engineer. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the difference in attitude.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Apple Tree Yard]

N1. This last post of yours is the one that will officially certify that you are indeed an obnoxious, arrogant imbecile. It frightens me to think that you possibly have something to do with keeping our aircraft airworthy. You obviously have an inferiority complex in respect of pilots, and your rather increasingly desperate posts are becoming an embarrassment to you. :D

['round midnight]

N1, Dragon,

Jesus ladies, get a fricking room!

[N1 Vibes]

'round midnight, ATY,

why don't you actually join in the debate. Since the thread wished to know "other staff's perception of the pilot group" - you are getting the answers you want - from other staff.

Asking pilots on a pilots (only) thread about what non-pilots think of their behaviour, is like God asking the Pope his thoughts on mass debating...

Discuss.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Busbert]

inferiority complex in respect of pilots
In 1948, engineers first put monkeys in space.
The monkey was trained to dumbly follow orders and twiddle a few buttons at the correct time, with a cast of thousands working in the background making the mission a success.

Monkeys in space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkeys_in_space)

To my knowledge, monkeys have yet to design their own spacecraft.

[Flap10]

Lets face it Busbert, engineer is your title but you really are a glorified grease monkey! You aint exactly an aeronautical engineer you moron.

[N1 Vibes]

FlapIO,

this is your total intellectual input to the debate? Now go and look up the word moron in the dictionary...

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Flap10]

N1Vibes,

I don't need to look up the word in the dictionary when there are two fine examples on this forum, yourself and Busbert!!!!!! :D:D:D:D

Now get lost and empty the waste tank!

Over and Out!

[N1 Vibes]

Flaps,

what you will find is that the word 'moron' describes those with an intellectual age of between 8 and 12 years old.

Your reasoning ability reminds me of children in the playground. And it also serves to illustrate your true age, how old are you?

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Busbert]

you really are a glorified grease monkey!
Said the driver monkey to the grease monkey.

That really hurts :ok:

Now p1ss back into your darkened cupboards, or hang out with your pilot (rhymes with pillock) mates and tell each other how great you all are.
How the grease monkies are cleaning your toilets,
how the 'ball boys' are dealing with the little people back in the SLF area, (that front up their own money to cover your absolutely insufficient wages that go no where near to covering your basic living expenses, alimony, barfines, child support).

Not to forget the herberts and doris's in Hello Kitty City that push paper between eating dimsum to sell seats to the little people down the back.
Or the management pilot sell out pukes that somehow keep the operation going,
or the tin pushers in IOC,
or the funny little men in HAECO that put orange ADD stickers on YOUR aircraft.
And of course your good friend TT who spends his time coming up with dastardly plans to rip you off from your RIGHTEOUS entitlement (of course between champagne brunches and lazy afternoons playing golf with the spineless dweebs at the AOA and DPU who are as we are told TT's lapdogs).

[2 cents]

Yawn... :zzz:

[Dragon69]

.....I thought I heard something.....Naahh must've been someone breaking wind.....anyway back to the champagne!

[Apple Tree Yard]

The only realisation we all need to focus on is this: for some reason, 'wannabe' pilot/greasemonkeys seem to have a pathological need to comment on a pilot thread. This is easily put down to their obvious inferiority complex and inability to get to grips with the fact that we can wear pyjamas while we work, while they bruise their knuckles and get dirty fingernails while they work. Doesn't take too much genius to figure out which method of earning a living is preferrable. :ok:

[cpdude]

OK, this is fun!:rolleyes:

[Busbert]

ATY
Considering that anyone working in aviation is inferior to the dumb end user (who twiddles a few knobs, and letting the FMGEC/FMGC drive) , I'd sure as hell hate to be the one that spends his 'career' sitting at the pointy end of a fragile tube designed by the cheapest engineering labour, and made from several hundred thousand parts all made and them maintained by the lowest bidder.

Add to that, an aircraft is the sum total of all of the engineering balls-ups made since it entered service, so you gotta hope that we are not as dumb was you think we are.

And don't make the mistake of thinking that all engineers get grease under their nails... Even I tend to call them technicians, to differentiate the difference between those that design and those that fix.

At the end of my career I'll be able to reflect on the various aircraft types I've had a hand in designing (from aerobatic trainers through to the A380 - even worked on some Concorde mods).

You will be able to explain to your grandchildren that you sat in a pipe and operated the taps to burn a few million tonnes of jet fuel in the atmosphere. But then again they probably won't want to talk to you, because you're an obnoxious pilot.

[N1 Vibes]

ATY, Dragon 60,

again it comes down to your superiority complex. Should your title be taken away from you, you would feel as if you have lost something.

As there is no system of rank in the engineering fraternity - we have nothing to lose.

As for the bruising and grazed knuckles - when something does go wrong with 'your' aeroplane and you are in your pyjamas - you can call an engineer who will come and fix it for you - and they won't complain as much as you.

But hang on a minute - you do believe it is your aeroplane don't you? Harping back to the sea captain tradition - that you are in 'command', so you believe when the engineer comes to service/repair the a/c he/she is doing it specifically to serve you.

Oh dear, you didn't realise that the engineer was doing it because he actually cares about the comfort and safety of the 17 cabin crew and the 350 pax that sit behind you in that metal tube......it's not the pilots that engineers have a problem with. It's arrogant people with superiority complexes that really get up their hooters.

I guess that any SLF or cabin crew that ever dare to stray into your pilots only club, will get a great idea of the sort of person behind the "Good Morning ladies and gentleman......" that they hear at the beginning of their flight.

Sadly you give your community a bad name. For me as self righteous as you like to call it, the safety and the pax come 1st.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Apple Tree Yard]

N1, you seem to have a desperate need to explain yourself, and your perceived place in the world. Please just fix the airplanes so I can fly off to Rome for a couple of days of sightseeing...there's a good chap. :ok:

[happy nightflyer]

You are a complete moron

[Apple Tree Yard]

yes, but i'm still going sightseeing in Rome..and London...and Sydney...and, etc. (oh, must go and press my pyjamas before I go!). :O

[Air Profit]

Nightflyer, you're too junior in the company to have an informed opinion. And if I wanted your opinion, i'd give it to you...:ok:

[N1 Vibes]

ATY, AP,

I am only keen to display the concerns and attitude of an airline engineer. Yourselves seems only interested in - well - yourselves - oh and money/status/champagne/Rome - you show no concerns for others....

As I said the SLF and your colleagues in the rest of the company obviously think you are wonderful too.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Gravox]

N1 & Busbert,
Been reading some of your comments, and was wondering if your views on us pilots is a comman theme amoung the engineers. If this is so we all have a serious problem of staff morale.

Being a lowly S/O i too have seen how some Captains and F/O believe they role the roost so to speak, but they are far and few between. Only problem is they ruin it for everyone. There is always one in the bunch.

I know that some F.A detest us because we get a housing allowance, but then again some FA think that CX trained me and don't realise that I have flown for 12 years in other airlines before coming here.

Senority is extremely important to the pilot body, and as you have seen it is something that we hold dear. I've worked for companies that don't use a senority base system, and its really ugly. All the brown nosing, and ass kissing looking for a promotion.

Even FA work in a senority system, ask some of the senor gals about the fast track male f.a to ISM postions, or any of the junior based girls in senior postions, they all have something to say about that too.

But thats drifting from the topic.
I do believe as a pilot group, but also as CX staff we need better relations with one another. From TT down to me.

[Dragon69]

Hey Assbert,


At the end of my career I'll be able to reflect on the various aircraft types I've had a hand in designing


You couldn't design a door handle let alone anything else, don't fool yourself or anyone else on this forum. Without a manual that told you exactly how to loosen a screw you would be a lost soul.

The majority of pilots have engineering degrees, or various degrees, several even have aeronautical degrees. If you want to make a generalized comment about us "dumb end user" and compare intelligence level between grease monkeys and pilots, I am afraid the grease monkey would lose out.

But that's just it isn't? Your posts wreak of envy and jealousy. I mean why else would you come on this forum and start taking pot shots.

I'd sure as hell hate to be the one that spends his 'career' sitting at the pointy end of a fragile tube designed by the cheapest engineering labour, and made from several hundred thousand parts all made and them maintained by the lowest bidder.


Yeah another intelligent comment :yuk::yuk:. Same can be said about the car you drive, the lift you take at ****ty City, the bus you catch...and so on! But you still, drive your car, run for that lift, catch that bus.......So what was your point again???

[Air Profit]

Busbert, let's see....'sitting at the pointy end'..hmm? Well, let's mention a few of the 'pointy ends' that i've sat at the front of shall we?

1) F104 Starfighter....hurtling through the desert near Las Vegas at 1000kts.
2) F4 Phantom....in and out of the welsh valleys at 250'.
3) F18...off the deck of a US aircraft carrier
4) B727...into Berlin....to meet my date at a local bar! :ok:
5) DC10...into Honolulu for a bit of R&R
6) B744...into Paris for a bit of shopping

...many, many different experiences...to many different and exotic places. But you're right...i'd MUCH rather be clambered up inside a wheel well changing a hydraulic pump. Yes....I get the 'point'. :ok:

[SIC]

You will be able to explain to your grandchildren that you sat in a pipe and operated the taps to burn a few million tonnes of jet fuel in the atmosphere. But then again they probably won't want to talk to you, because you're an obnoxious pilot

Thanks for clearing that up. Now I know why I constantly have that nagging sense of underachievement.....especially in the cruise.

[HotDog]

I think it's high time to stop feeding the monkeys:ugh: Moderator, please put a lock on this inane dialogue!

[Air Profit]

HotDog...coming from NSW Aus means you would know about inane dialogue! The wonderful thing about the internet is.....if you don't like it, click to a different page. I always admire someone who determines that no further discussion can take place because THEY don't want it. B**ger off :ok:

[HotDog]

Air Profit, you obviously enjoy a school boy spat so you stay and I'll bugger off, as you suggest.

[N1 Vibes]

Gravox,

you have nothing to fear about the relationship between this engineer and the wider pilot community. Just the few examples of pilots with whom we are playing forum ping-pong, these are the ones to watch.

If you took away their seniority/housing, they would feel it as a crushing blow to their 'lifestyle'. And would spend every minute, of every day, from now until the grim reaper put's them out of their misery, whinging about 'the good times'.

Other realists in CX and around the world I suspect are very, very, appreciative of the privileged situation they are in. If CX took away everybody's housing tomorrow for example - then I would be at the same level as the guy sitting next to me - seems fair - I would cut my cloth to suit.

Dragon 59,

if only it was as easy as reading the 'manual'. I somehow don't think you know, and I'm sure you're about to tell me you don't care.

As far as whether Busbert has ever designed something on your a/c, actually it is extremely likely that he has. And I think you will find that is was much more safety critical than a door handle.

1st rule of debating - know your audience.

Air Profit,

fascinating list - but remember the fact that you got into the air at all was because somebody had previously been in that wheel-well.

(PS I think I hear the strains of Top Gun in the background - no hang on, that's Busbert straining to heave up his lunch after reading your 'Glory Moments')

We all have lists of achievements. Only those who feel inferior/threatened or need to impress, feel the need to wave them about.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Air Profit]

N1...first rule of debating: don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Perhaps you can follow Hotdogs example...?

[N1 Vibes]

AP,

sorry old chap - this is a debate about how people view the actions of the Pilot Community with regards to SLS, and has now expanded into your view of those who are not members of the Pilot Community, which I as a non-pilot have joined in.

Why don't you trot out your "LESS IMPORTANT" statement about non-pilots again?

I have to say, based on the support you are receiving, that so far you're doing quite well....please continue.

Regards,

N1 Vibes

[Dragon69]

1st rule of debating - know your audience.

You haven't got a clue about your audience... so what the F:mad:k are you talking about!

Actually N1Fibs the only support you have gotten on this forum is from your buddy Assbert.

Let me see, numerous slanderous posts right after the announcement of SLS. You are nothing more than a management stooge! Like a good friend from HAECO told me once, those CX engineers are arrogant pricks that wouldn't be able to install a blind rivet to save their lives.

[Arfur Dent]

Very sad to see this thread being completely dominated by Dragon 69, N1 vibes and Busbert. You've made your points guys in page after page of unbridled venom.
Can I suggest that you move on with your respective lives having denegrated others who should be regarded at least as 'brothers in arms' - if not friends and colleagues.
Day after day and page after page. Enough guys. We get the point.
To those onlookers wondering what on earth this is all about please believe me that this dialogue (trialogue?) is not in any way typical of the relationships existing between pilots and engineers.

[raven11]

Jagman

Very good post, and quite right. But I must say I did enjoy Air Proffit's posts number 76 and 82!

Air Proffit I must also say that a good mate once told me to remember that "trash haulers" are people too!:ok:

[Dragon69]

Point taken Jagman, but at least have the dignity to stand up and protect your profession.

[Arfur Dent]

Sting in the tail there Dragon but good on you for acknowledging what I was trying to say. Thanks for that. :ok: