Coastguard airlift

[crud12001]

Reported in Aberdeen P&J that BP Helio from Miller was called to airlift yesterday (21st) an injured Skipper from a fishing vessel,but that it was a Coastguard Helio that actualy did the lift.

Anyone got any news why the Jigsaw A/C didnt do it?.

crud12001

[ppheli]

Jigsaw is an AS332L2, right? If so, they are grounded again - see Eurocopter Press release (http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/FO/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=602)

[crud12001]

Press def says BP Rescue chopper attended first!

[linksfred]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Skipper with broken leg rescued (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8011863.stm)

strange comment at the end

[britinusa]

I heard that the jigsaw puma arrived on scene, but couldn't carry out the winch because the boat was too small (50ft), and tried to get the local RSV to take the cas off so the aircraft could winch off the bigger deck, obviously the CG didn't like that and sent R102.

[InTgreen]

Does this mean that Jigsaw are unable to 'cut the mustard' when it comes to SAR jobs? Or was this job a significant departure from that which they are contracted/trained for?

[TTFD]

One of the Bond Jigsaw aircraft has been flying since 20 April after checks. There was a rumour going around that the Jigsaw aircraft had been stopped entirely by BP, but was probably more likely down to the grounding by EASA.

TTFD

[HeliComparator]

Just waiting for Crab to visit this thread...:uhoh:

[[email protected]]

An intriguing story - could have been as simple as equipment failure on the Puma - I'm sure the truth will out.

[[email protected]]

Seems as though it might be a similar case to that of the Puma ditching (the non-fatal one) which was a 'SAR' captain's first shift who couldn't keep a hover within a few metres and a rearcrew who couldn't get two casualties into the cabin at once and had to return them to the water.

It is strange because I know of at least one very experienced SAR operator who went to Jigsaw -where has the capability gone or has it all been a box-ticking exercise to meet the terms of the contract?

[detgnome]

There are at least 2 ex 203 Sqn QHIs and 1 ex 202 Sqn pilot on Jigsaw.

[Clever Richard]

Perhaps it goes to show that if you don't spend a lot of money on continuation training then even the best suffer skill fade. To paraphrase an old cliche,'you are only as good as your last rescue'.

Anyway, in this case I'm sure it is just supposition.

CD

[Moose Loadie]

I heard that the jigsaw aircraft does not have a switch for the pilot to operate the hoist. I can see how that may cause a problem as the winch-op needs both hands to pull in survivors at the door.

[[email protected]]

Detgnome - well it clearly wasn't any of those 3 on either job then, what is the experience level like with the rest of the Captains?

Moose - that was flatly denied when I raised it on an earlier thread but there is an old saying about smoke and fire.......

[Up Up Up]

Photo of the vessel in question

www.trawlerphotos.co.uk/gallery/showfull.php?photo=46130 (http://www.trawlerphotos.co.uk/gallery/showfull.php?photo=46130)

[Bounce Bounce]

Detgnome - well it clearly wasn't any of those 3 on either job then,

Crab, why was it clearly!!! not one of them

[[email protected]]

Bounce bounce - anyone with proper SAR captaincy experience would have little problem dealing with either personnel in the water or a 50' deck, day or night unless the aircraft doesn't have the right kit or the rearcrew are not trained.

[Wiretensioner]

Why is it that every time Crab arrives on the thread it turns into a bitch fest!

Bond couldn't do it. Coastgaurd did end of story. And it wasn't an equipment failure.

Wiretensioner.

[Clever Richard]

Because Crab asks questions that are uncomfortable for those involved. Which is why they round on him. So can somebody tell us why the Jigsaw aircraft didn't do the rescue?

CD

[leopold bloom]

Do you know why and can you share the information?

[Vie sans frontieres]

A crew is only as strong as its weakest link. Every now and again one crew comes up short and another one takes up the reins. I think Culdrose ran out of hi-lines on a job a few years ago and Chivenor completed the task. Then last year the favour was returned. Tick VG Culdrose. It happens. It takes a bit of guts to admit you're not up to it, whether it's in the mountains or out to sea. Both environments can challenge even the most experienced of operators. However, if you're not up to it because of deficiencies in training, well, the public deserve better.

[SARCO]

Seems as though it might be a similar case to that of the Puma ditching (the non-fatal one) which was a 'SAR' captain's first shift who couldn't keep a hover within a few metres and a rearcrew who couldn't get two casualties into the cabin at once and had to return them to the water.


Give it a rest mate, all helo crews that were involved in the ETAP incident did a fantastic job that night in some pretty crap weather conditions. Instead of trying to tar this thread with your usual 'bravado' why not stop stirring and realise that once again you are not in full position of the facts.

We all like a bit of banter and freedom to speak our mind, but if you are not fully aware about what goes on in a particular incident then you should refrain from making uninformed comments, and by uninformed I mean 'heard on the grapevine'

Thanks

[HAL9000]

Tell us what went on then SARCO and end all the speculation.

[[email protected]]

The reason I bang on about stuff like this is simple - when organisations declare themselves as SAR capable, the public and their customers have a right to expect a certain standard of performance and an ability to complete the rescues safely and efficiently. If simple jobs like the two already mentioned are too difficult for the 'SAR' crews, what on earth will happen when there is something more challenging to deal with.

None of this is about bravado or point-scoring - it is about highlighting shortcomings in real SAR capability which have been brought about by cost-cutting, poor regulation, equipment shortcomings, lack of training or other commercial problems.

Calling yourself SAR capable and not being able to deliver is, frankly, criminal since other agencies might rely on you to do the job and not have to send a back-up unit just in case you're not up to it which might be too late for the poor sods in trouble.

I know there are some capable guys in Jigsaw so why are they not listened to? What is the point of employing SAR experience if you ignore what they are telling you because it might cost money.

SARCO - you will be able to use your extensive night, over-water heli experience then to highlight what a 'fantastic job' they did and how. My information comes from people involved on scene - does yours?

[Winch-control]

"I know there are some capable guys in Jigsaw so why are they not listened to? What is the point of employing SAR experience if you ignore what they are telling you because it might cost money."

Answer done already...Money, just needs denial.

[Spanish Waltzer]

hmmmmmmmmm the silence is deafening:ok:

There must be a number of ppruners who know the facts / answers to the various questions posed on this thread (and not just from crab).

One would have assumed they would want to set the record straight as all silence does is allow the rumour mills to continue to turn.

So just bringing this thread to the top again so that they dont miss their chance....:E:E

[Justintime80]

OFFshorebear Quote "To put all this in a nutshell, the Jigsaw helicopter and it's crew may have been quickest on-scene, been able to Triage and treat the injury, administer more potent analgesia to make the casualty more comfortable then allow the Coastguard aircraft to get him ashore to allow the BP aircraft to carry on with it's primary function of looking after the guys offshore rather than downgrading cover for the 3+ hours that bit would take for the run ashore and back"

Yep that's the way it I heard it happened as well.

I was also told there were Fairy's down the bottom of my garden and I believe that as well. Not:=

Justin

[Markcl10]

Might I suggest you look at the CG press notice on this incident. It all seems pretty clear here! Newsroom - Press Releases (http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home/newsandpublications/press-releases.htm?id=F0D56929FAD645A7&m=4&y=2009)

INJURED FISHERMAN EVACUATED TO HOSPITAL BY COASTGUARD HELICOPTER
At twenty minutes past ten this morning Aberdeen coastguard were called by the crew of the fishing vessel Sunlight Ray reporting that the skipper had sustained a broken leg and needed assistance.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/s92-8.jpg
Coastguard helicopter from Sumburgh,Shetland Islands
The fishing vessel was fishing in a position 125 miles from Fraserburgh when the incident occurred.

Aberdeen Coastguard in the first instance secured medical advice for the crew by teleconnecting them with a duty doctor at Aberdeen Royal Infirmary. The decision was made that the man would have to be evacuated.

As there is a BP rescue helicopter based on the Miller Platform callsign Bond 1 Aberdeen coastguard requested their assistance.

Crew from Bond 1 and the rig standby vessel Grampian Courageous assisted in boarding the fishing vessel to administer pain relieving medication.

The Coastguard Helicopter R102 from Sumburgh was requested to fly out to the oil field where they winched the man into the helicopter and then refuelled on the Piper Bravo platform

He was then flown direct to Aberdeen Royal Infirmary where he is receiving treatment for his broken leg.

Matthew Mace, Aberdeen Coastguard said:

This was a long day for the skipper of the fishing vessel who had to endure a lot of different experiences to enable him to be eventually flown to hospital for treatment to his broken leg.

We are pleased that we were able to assist this man along with all the other people that were involved in his evacuation.


Posted By: Fred Caygill


For further details contact:
The Maritime & Coastguard Agency Press Office
023 8032 9401

[[email protected]]

It is what is not said in the press release that poses more questions than it answers: if the Bond winchman was winched to the vessel, surely it would say so rather than use the odd phrase Crew from Bond 1 and the rig standby vessel Grampian Courageous assisted in boarding the fishing vessel to administer pain relieving medication and they would have winched casualty and winchman off again.

It was suggested earlier in the thread that the Bond helo wanted the skipper transferred to the support vessel in order to winch him off that.

So do we believe that 2 helicopters were sent to do the job because it preserved the integrity of the N Sea SAR standby or do we think that 102 had to be used because the Jigsaw crew couldn't winch to the fishing vessel?

Hmmmmm:ugh:

[Up Up Up]

I believe that Bond 1 did get the Winchman onboard at some point but were unable to SAFELY lift the casualty off. R102 was tasked to proceed at 1245UTC in case Bond 1 could not complete the mission.
R102 on scene at 1350 Winchman on vessel at 1402 stretcher lowered 1407. The Casualty was transferred from the vessels Neil Robertson stretcher into their own and both Casualty and Winchman were recovered to the Aircraft by Hi-line Stretcher Double Lift at 1435. Then taken to ARI via Piper Bravo for refuel.

[Vie sans frontieres]

So what did the Sumburgh winchman have in his box of tricks that the Bond winchman didn't? And what are we to make of Offshorebear deleting his earlier explanation of what happened? :confused:

[Moose Loadie]

The back-up of a crew who practice a little more often.

[Offshorebear]

Solely job preservation in the event of someone thinking it was company sensitive information :ok:

I still stand by my opinion that the situation was nothing more sinister than not wanting to downgrade the offshore SAR cover rather than any lack in the abilities of the Jigsaw crews although the more I read this does not seem to be the general consensus of opinion on here .............

[Vie sans frontieres]

Offshorebear

You presented your "opinion" as fact. Some people may well have believed you. Have you read the definition of 'sciolist' at the bottom of this page?

Unless the aircraft or a crewmember goes u/s half way through, nobody is going to hand over a job to one of their colleagues/competitors/rivals (however they may see other SAR bases) before they've seen the job through to its conclusion. It just doesn't happen. That's why so many people see through your argument. Jigsaw have done plenty of jobs where the casualty has come back onshore, thus reducing cover in the North Sea. So back to the original question, why not on this occasion?

[Offshorebear]

You presented your "opinion" as fact. Some people may well have believed you. Have you read the definition of 'sciolist' at the bottom of this page?

The 'fact' part was that I at least understand how the Jigsaw system works, my 'opinion' was what may have happened on this particular occasion.

Unless you were directly involved at the time then the term 'sciolist' could be levelled at any of us commenting on this particular issue.

[[email protected]]

The 'fact' part was that I at least understand how the Jigsaw system works or in fact doesn't work based on a series of seemingly p*ss-poor performances by the N Sea SAR providers!!!

[crud12001]

or in fact doesn't work based on a series of seemingly p*ss-poor performances by the N Sea SAR providers!!!

Looking at the replies and various other comments are people not worried about the potential that Jigsaw could be found laking if really tested?

[[email protected]]

I think some people at the ARCCK are.

[Achilles426]

Has "Angel on a wire" and "SARGOD" nothing to add to this thread? Or have they left Jigsaw for pastures new?

[Offshorebear]

When Jigsaw was first envisaged it was sold to the troops as 'a better way of rescue & recovery' which, when you compare it to some of what was in place at the time was true, I mean when chosing between getting fished out the sea by a nice shiney state of the art helicopter instead of a potentialy 30 year old propeller driven with no thrusters standby vessel hanging a big net off the side then it was a bit of a no brainer what we'd rather have.

After a lot of consultation the initial proposal to solely having helicopters grew to the entire package with RSV's, ARRC's, MOB Alarms, Platform REWS and the Helicopters, the entire process was under the close scrutiny of the HSE, industry experts, offshore unions and the Offshore Safety Reps taking years to come to fruition before finally going 'live'.

Since it's inception there have been multiple issues with the system creating loads of concerns about various aspects.

Suffice to say as BP have spent 100's of millions of pounds delivering this I doubt rumours of problems on an internet forum will make them admit the system is lacking and go back to the old SBV system.

I am well aware that the SBV industry has moved with the times and there is a continous stream of new build state of the art vessels being built but even so, I still think what BP have is 'a better way of rescue and recovery'

Before anyone has a pop and reckons I am BP management in disguise trying to defend a seemingly 'flawed' system please be assured that I am just a bog standard offshore bear who's seen Jigsaw from the offshore perspective from the start to where we are now.

[[email protected]]

Offshorebear - I think the only issue here, and one we keep coming back to, is that it is all very well investing in the shiny new hardware but the man-machine interface needs regular practice to keep up the required skill levels.

After all the millions of pounds of investment, it seems stupid to 'spoil the ship for a h'aporth of tar' to use an old maritime adage. But that is what you get when accountants rule the world:ugh:

[Saint Evil]

Crab,

you must remember that Jigsaw is also a new outfit with only 3 years experience operating in their environment, which is not only the North Sea but also within the confines of the Oil and Gas Industry and the CAA/JAR and soon EASA regs.

What currencies are required for certain skills? Your currency requirements have been borne out of years of experience(and as I remember the currency requirements kept changing to either fit the amount of flying that you could get depending on projected serviceability of the fleet). Jigsaw have to deal with the requirements from their customers and CAA oversight - as far as I am aware there have been no issues regarding this. If there are any issues regarding currencies etc then produce the document that details these so funding can be acquired(no different than doing a Training Needs Analysis in the RAF and then trying to work where the money is going to come from before you can get anything done).

Also as far as I am aware they are not a dedicated SAR asset for the general use of the ARCCK, they are for the use of the BP and other contracting companies.

As they got the winchman to the casualty to stabilize him, why not use the CG helo to actually evacuate him? That gets the casualty better and keeps the Jigsaw asset where it is supposed to be. What's the issue? I remember being tasked to finish a job started by Boulmer, but as they had gone u/s and their casualty have acute appendicitus we went to finish it(when I was flying Yellow). I was also tasked to take an engineer to fix the Boulmer helo(night stopping on a rig). I was initially anti this as far as I was concerned the casualty's needs were paramount and we shouldn't waste time delivering the engineer. I was told to get off my high horse and get on with it and do you know what, I was wrong. we got the casualty and recovered the Boulmer aircraft and everyone was a winner.

When you get some breadth of experience in doing SAR in different theatres and with different operators you might gain some perspective. It's not all about one helicopter-one job it is about using the toys effectively to achieve a number of objectives - some of which you may not be aware of down in your little pit in Devon(the North Sea is a long way away).

Anyway if you want to have your little crusade to make things all light blue then instead of bleating on public forums and upsetting people who may not be able answer back(think about the position the RAF ends up in whenever anything goes wrong in a Yellow helicopter(winchmen injured during training/rescues, tip strikes, crashes during OCU training, poorly thought out airtests, Tail rotor blades fitted the wrong way round by contractors, SAR Flights being declared unfit due to contracturalisation(sp?), new model helicopters refused to be accepted, mods fitted to aircraft without supporting documentation/flight testing, flypasts a building level during parades etc I could go on). when these things happen sometimes you don't have the right of reply and maybe the Jigsaw boys are in the same boat or maybe they don't care about your narrow minded and ill informed drivel.

PM me if you want to chat further, as I have no intention of furthering this thread as it serves no purpose - this a rumour network, if you want to continue please got to UPSlN.com (Unprofessional Pilots Slagging Network) to carry on.

I am not in Jigsaw by the way, but I can read the rubbish on these forums. I have to say I am somewhat disappointed and disillusioned with the rubbish coming from a SAR QHI that I used to hold in high regard when I was a Yellow Hatter.

Saint Evil

editted to get rid of a rubbish icon

[crud12001]

just heard from a friend that Jigsaw morale is v low as these guys dont seem to be able to perform not due to the people but the system.

seems the offshore bears are very worried if they dont have a dedicated ERRV with them as most other platforms and MODU have!

[[email protected]]

An interesting rant Saint Evil but you miss my whole raison d'etre on SAR threads entirely. I don't desire the whole SAR world to be light blue, SARH is an inevitability and probably (in the end) a good thing since the military seems keen to wash its hands of SAR. My recurring theme has been that if you are going to contractorise SAR then do it properly, not on the cheap, and not by claiming capability that doesn't exist.

All the anti-mil brigade's claims about mil SAR being more expensive always boil down to training, or lack of it and this appears to be a problem with Jigsaw. I know there are capable people there but even ex-HSU pilots will get blunt with no training, especially over the water at night.

If you have lost respect for me because I care about SAR and about the poor buggers who deserve a decent service when one is promised to them then so be it - I cannot sit back and say nothing about a system that is clearly not working.

Jigsaw aircraft may be non-declared but they are still UK SAR assets and should be expected to do any job they are tasked to. If the N Sea workers don't have confidence in them there must be a reason.

Thankyou for the lecture about utilisation of SAR assets and gaining experience in role - just remind me when you were a travelling Sqn QHI current on two types and doing shifts at 3 different flights for 5 years again:ugh:.

[Geoffersincornwall]

CRAB

Just for the record your assertion that 'To spoil the ship for a ha'peth of tar' is an old naval expression is far from the truth. The saying is in fact an old farming expression and is derived from the words TO SPOIL THE SHEEP FOR A HA'PETH OF TAR'.

Tar was the only affordable medication for treating maggot infestation prior to the development of vetinary pharmeceuticals.

G. :}

[[email protected]]

Geoffers - every day is a school day:) Isn't google a wonderful thing?

[Geoffersincornwall]

CRAB

Well us 'fish'eds' have been at this aviation game for 100 years now (not me personally you understand) so I feel it encumbant upon me to continue educating our junior service colleagues. If you want to know about aviation ask a sailor.

Google has it's purposes but I actually learnt about that little saying on the BBC Radio 4 programme 'Quote, Unquote' many moons ago. Until then I too imagined shipwrights with little pots of tar dabbing the wounds of beached wooden warships.

G. :ok:

[Epiphany]

Current on TWO whole types Crab?? Is that a yellow one and a green one?

[[email protected]]

Green! are you mad? Then I'd have to fly soldiers and USLs and do ash and trash missions and all that tedious SH stuff, not to mention dodging bullets! That's a game for young men not old knackers like me:)

[Epiphany]

Then I'd have to fly soldiers and USLs and do ash and trash missions and all that tedious SH stuff, not to mention dodging bullets!


Ah you must mean real flying.

[Wiretensioner]

Anyway if Crab had to do any of that 'ash and trash' stuff he wouldn't have time to pontificate on any and every subject on these hallowed threads.

Wiretensioner

[[email protected]]

Epiphany - no I did that and it gets very samey very quickly - if you want to be a troop bus driver then fine but I'll stick with rescuing people thanks.

Wiretensioner - this is a forum for discussions - just because you don't like my point of view doesn't mean I should give up contributing.