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SpringHeeledJack
21st Apr 2009, 19:51
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/nyregion/22pirate.html?_r=1&hp

How is it legally possible for the USA to take a Somali citizen (pirate) who held up a Danish ship (Maersk) in international waters and will try him for piracy in a US court :confused: The captain and crew were American alright, but what precedent allows such people to be kidnapped and transported around the world to face someone else's justice ?

I have often wondered why the international community don't get together and station ships with marines at entry and exit points (approx) on the route that takes shipping around the horn of Africa. As each ship comes and goes several marines board and provide expert cover until the exit point is reached where they disembark. Fees could be charged for this service or provided pro rata by various UN govts for free to keep international cargos on their way with minimal hinderance from said pirates. Most of the attacks have been low tech and i'm sure that well equipped marines could 'dissuade' any further holdups due to the higher risk of death to any pirates. I know that cruise liners use water cannons and sound guns to repel boarders, so why not the container/cargo ships ?


Regards


SHJ

renfrew
21st Apr 2009, 20:01
The ship was actually registered in Norfolk,Virginia and flying the American flag.

Um... lifting...
21st Apr 2009, 20:05
The Dutch are doing it too, though there does seem to be some question of jurisdiction in both places. Ship's Danish-owned, U.S. registered. Makes all the difference.

washingtonpost.com (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/17/AR2009041700416.html)

Cruise ships and ocean liners also have some other advantages over container ships... higher freeboard, significantly higher speed, and far larger crews. They also, one would suspect, carry firearms.

Rollingthunder
21st Apr 2009, 20:09
What gets me is the mother. "My Son left home a couple of weeks ago but could not be part of this piracy."

Notwithstanding the fact he ended up on an American warship trying to negotiate a ransom for the Captain of a US flagged ship.

"I hope if the US tries him in court they will invite me to come over."

They would never get rid of her.

Of course I expect an airline ticket, first class, 4 star hotel accomodation with meals and a limo to and from the courthouse.

WhatsaLizad?
21st Apr 2009, 20:13
I'd rather track him to his home village or when he joins up with his fellow "clan" members.

After about a month, send a few prized goats to his village Chief or clan chieftain, along with a note from the UN Maritime Commission, thanking the "pirate" for his service in "resolving" the hostage situation.

That should take care of the lone survivor and save the US Taxpayers millions. :E

con-pilot
21st Apr 2009, 20:14
What I think is funny is that over a thousand defense lawyers are flocking to defend this guy, for free.



(Hum, well now that I think about it, I'm not sure that it is all that funny. :uhoh:)

WhatsaLizad?
21st Apr 2009, 20:20
"What gets me is the mother. "My Son left home a couple of weeks ago but could not be part of this piracy."


Uncanny similarity to the usual response by a somewhat related ethnic demographic group in the USA.

Whenever there is a tragedy involving a young member of this group, either "dispatched" in a battle with the police, or charged with a henious violent crime, there are always family members and groups upset since the victim (or the arrested) cannot be responsible since he was a, "Honor Student" who was always studying to go to college. 99% of the time the police will release the "honor students" arrest record, with usually details arrests since 9 years old, many of a violent nature.

The angry protesting mobs then go about their business and reassemble when the next tragedy occurs.

Those in the USA are used to it.

Overdrive
21st Apr 2009, 20:29
What I think is funny is that over a thousand defense lawyers are flocking to defend this guy, for free.






Well, I guess the Patriot Act was meant to destroy true patriotism. Maybe it's working?


Or more likely it's the sharky lawyers just trying to publicise their dorsal fins.

Lily Rowan
21st Apr 2009, 20:58
Piracy is one of few crimes for which international law traditionally allows universal jurisdiction. Therefore, any country can prosecute pirates, regardless of pirate, victim, ship, or territorial-water nationality.

Even without universal jurisdiction, the U.S. could still claim prosecutorial rights under accepted international law because the ship was an American –flagged vessel and the hostages were American citizens.

brickhistory
21st Apr 2009, 21:16
Why not release the young man at the scene of the crime?

An invitation to 'step off,' then the captain orders "full steam" or whatever boat-type people do.

Jurisdiction wouldn't seem to be a problem then.

But that would be inhumane wouldn't it.

Unlike trying to capture a ship and holding the hostage at gunpoint.

They should ban all those guns in Somalia.

I'm sure that would work too...

Two's in
21st Apr 2009, 22:05
“How did he come into American custody?” Mr. Kuby asked. “There are conflicting reports. Did he come on to the Bainbridge” — the U.S. Navy destroyer on the scene during the standoff — “to seek medical attention, or come under a flag of truce?” In either case, he said, holding the suspected pirate would be a violation of the principle of neutrality.

From homicidal cut-throat to stateless juvenile victim in less than a week - God I love this country!

con-pilot
21st Apr 2009, 22:21
The trial may be a moot point. I have just received a copy of a top secret memo from President Obama to the Justice Department from one of my sources in the Justice Department.

Apparently the Navy misunderstood President Obama's orders.

President Obama did not want to ATTACK the pirates.

He wanted to place A TAX on the pirates.



















:p

Dushan
21st Apr 2009, 22:22
Fees could be charged for this service or provided pro rata by various UN govts for free to keep international cargos on their way with minimal hinderance from said pirates.

Oh great, let's get the UN involved. That will solve everything...
Actually I am surprised that it took this long for victim advocates to emerge.

Con-pilot how was the flight?:E

Seldomfitforpurpose
21st Apr 2009, 22:25
It's not like this sort of thing has never been done before :rolleyes:

innuendo
21st Apr 2009, 22:25
Wonder if a few coils of razor wire on the gunn'ls would make it a bit more difficult to board. Too bad you could not have it livened up with 220 Volts to add to the degree of difficulty.

con-pilot
21st Apr 2009, 22:44
Con-pilot how was the flight?:E

To be honest I don't believe that it was my old outfit that flew him back. It was probably the FBI in their G-V.

As for the victim advocates goes, I'm going to watch MSNBC, the Soros/Obama/Pelosi unofficial news channel to see when they start to claim pity on this poor pirate's case.

Which brings up a point, if President Obama allows his Attorney General to go after former President Bush and his cabinet with criminal charges over this so-called torture thing, conversely cannot President Obama's successor go after President Obama and members of his cabinet over the murder of three poor Somalian pirates, oh sorry, err I mean fishermen? After all, the pirates had not killed anyone, yet they were gun downed in cold blood on the orders of President Obama (PBUH).


After all, none of the people that underwent this so-called torture suffered any physical or mental harm, but yet, those poor Somalians. Dead on the orders of the President of the United States. :{












(Now how's that for turning sh!t around, huh? :p)

brickhistory
21st Apr 2009, 23:10
“How did he come into American custody?” Mr. Kuby asked. “There are conflicting reports. Did he come on to the Bainbridge” — the U.S. Navy destroyer on the scene during the standoff — “to seek medical attention, or come under a flag of truce?” In either case, he said, holding the suspected pirate would be a violation of the principle of neutrality.


Mr. Kuby is obviously unaware of the Pirate Code:


Elizabeth: Wait! You have to take me to shore. According to the Code of the Order of the Brethren...

Barbossa: First, your return to shore was not part of our negotiations nor our agreement so I must do nothing. And secondly, you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner .



Substitute Abdhul Wal-i-musi for Elizabeth/Miss Turner and USS Bainbridge for the Black Pearl and I think you'll have it.

mini
21st Apr 2009, 23:15
Seems some NY law firm have delved deep and decided that as he was negotiating a truce his arrest may have been illegal under piracy laws, :confused:

This is going to be interesting... :}

galaxy flyer
21st Apr 2009, 23:17
C-P

But, you bring up an interesting point--does the President have a "license to kill"? As the leftist element here would protest, who authorized the murder without due process of the three pirates? Impeach BHO, now!

OTOH, if I were the captain of the Bainbridge--I would have introduced the pirate to the tradition of the Plank. Walk it!!

GF

Seldomfitforpurpose
21st Apr 2009, 23:18
Brick,

Surely using that analogy the pirate in question is actually Miss Turner and the Captain of the USS Bainbridge is the Pirate Barbossa...................:confused:

con-pilot
21st Apr 2009, 23:23
What I want to know is, what did Miss Turner look like?











(And no I'm not a dirty old man, I'm a sexy senior citizen. :p)

brickhistory
21st Apr 2009, 23:24
er, I was pretty sure that


Substitute Abdhul Wal-i-musi for Elizabeth/Miss Turner


and


USS Bainbridge for the Black Pearl and I think you'll have it.


was foolproof as to meaning.

Apparently, I was wrong.

Seldomfitforpurpose
21st Apr 2009, 23:47
You're American, of course you are wrong...................doh :O

HKPAX
21st Apr 2009, 23:51
When he is released after doing 5 years (after all he's only 17) he will claim he faces persecution back home and will get US citizenship. Then they'll all be at it. Make em walk the plank.

con-pilot
21st Apr 2009, 23:55
When he is released after doing 5 years (after all he's only 17) he will claim he faces persecution back home and will get US citizenship. Then they'll all be at it.

And that Sir, I'm assuming that you are male, maybe closer to the truth than you will ever know.

brickhistory
21st Apr 2009, 23:58
You're American, of course you are wrong...................doh


But I did find my proof.

Good day.

pigboat
22nd Apr 2009, 02:21
The Bainbridge's skipper should have made him walk the plank. Yaaaarrrr!

Pinky the pilot
22nd Apr 2009, 02:46
Walking the plank?:ugh: Whatever happened to the good old 'hanging from the yardarm?':ooh:

Tyres O'Flaherty
22nd Apr 2009, 03:41
Keelhauling.Now THAT'S a real man's punishment. Yaarrr

SpringHeeledJack
22nd Apr 2009, 06:48
Piracy is one of few crimes for which international law traditionally allows universal jurisdiction. Therefore, any country can prosecute pirates, regardless of pirate, victim, ship, or territorial-water nationality.

Even without universal jurisdiction, the U.S. could still claim prosecutorial rights under accepted international law because the ship was an American –flagged vessel and the hostages were American citizens.

So if a Liberian vessel(as an everyday example) were boarded off the western coast of Chile in international waters (hundreds of miles from sovereign territory) by 'pirates' then they could be prosecuted anywhere in the world, regardless of the nationality of the crew ? My sheltered upbringing kept such laws from me hands, yarr jim lad!


Regards


SHJ

Wod
22nd Apr 2009, 07:14
I was just wondering, tongue in cheek, why we are not collectively applauding these young, piratical entrepreneurs. To date they have killed no-one, yet made a killing financially.

(They now claim to be somewhat miffed that some of their number have been shot, so we'll have to wait and see.)

But the fact remains that as normal sources of income have withered in the collapse of Somalia they have gone into a new line of profitable work.

Perhaps the USA should offer Somalia statehood; can't see them being a burden on the public purse once they see the opportunities ahead of them.;)

Blacksheep
22nd Apr 2009, 09:00
Its not as if Somalia is the only pirate coast. You have to include at least Nigeria, Yemen, the Straits of Malacca, Cambodia and China. Many parts of South America have pirate problems too. The old British East India Company armed its merchant ships for a good reason. In fact, they were so well armed they could take on many a nation's warships. Then there were the Spanish galleons, armed to the teeth to resist pirates - English 'privateers' under the warrant of Good Queen Bess! Much of Britain's Crown Property was come by from the proceeds of piracy...

tony draper
22nd Apr 2009, 09:08
A single round in the back whilst trying to escape has solved a lot of problems in the past,but then we never learn the lessons of history do we.
:rolleyes:
Mr B that was Spanish Gold plundered from the Aztecs and such,the Dons would have only wasted it,built more bloody churches an stuff.

SLFguy
22nd Apr 2009, 12:32
"Wonder if a few coils of razor wire on the gunn'ls would make it a bit more difficult to board."

We had a vessel in the same convoy as MV Irene which was boarded last week. There are coils of barbed wire all around the vessel. The DPRs of the transit make interesting reading....

01:20 "Vessel MV Irene E.M. 10 nautical miles off our stern reports on VHF channel 16 to any coalition vessel of a suspicious small boat. No response from coalition vessels"

01:25 "MV Irene continues calls and announces they are being attacked by pirates. A few minutes later a French coalition warship responds to distress call. At this stage the MV Irene has already been taken."

01:40 "xxx security on board inform UKMTO of the attack"

02:30 "Visual of several distress flares astern our position"

later...

08:30 "Unknown vessel reports via VHF to a Naval Patrol vessel of a pirate mother ship ahead of our position. xxx security onboard advise us to alter course to starboard to pass clear of suspect vessel. Patrol vessel on its way to assist. Suspect vessel running at a speed of 10 knots towards another vessel."

later...

17:50 "A small suspicious yacht close to our staboard side seen with a large dinghy hanging from its stern. Two different ID numbers on its mast, 6 persons on deck"

18:00 "Vessel passes yacht without incident"


This was first time I had heard of a "pirate mother-ship" :uhoh:

Mr Grimsdale
22nd Apr 2009, 12:58
And that Sir, I'm assuming that you are male, maybe closer to the truth than you will ever know.

If it makes you feel any better con-pilot the same would happen here too!

Just think it only needed another bullet and the problem would have been solved.

Blacksheep
22nd Apr 2009, 13:26
From the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8010061.stm)

A 25-year-old Somali pirate has told the BBC's Mohamed Olad Hassan by telephone from the notorious den of Harardhere in central Somalia why he became a sea bandit

A group of our villagers, mainly fishermen I knew, were arming themselves. One of them told me that they wanted to hijack ships, which he said were looting our sea resources.

'National service'
He told me it was a national service with a lot of money in the end. Then I took my gun and joined them.

Years ago we used to fish a lot, enough for us to eat and sell in the markets. Then illegal fishing and dumping of toxic wastes by foreign fishing vessels affected our livelihood, depleting the fish stocks. I had no other choice but to join my colleagues.

The first hijack I attended was in February 2007 when we seized a World Food Programme-chartered ship with 12 crew. I think it had the name of MV Rozen and we released it after two months, with a ransom. Now I have two lorries, a luxury car and have started my own business in town...
Dahir Mohamed Hayeysi

Since when has a World Food Programme ship been a threat to the Somalian fishing industry? Or any of the other VLCVs they have been hi-jacking?

pigboat
22nd Apr 2009, 13:31
I was just wondering, tongue in cheek, why we are not collectively applauding these young, piratical entrepreneurs. To date they have killed no-one, yet made a killing financially

A veritable Bernie Madoff in the making, then.

Sprogget
22nd Apr 2009, 13:35
Meanwhile, on the means streets of the south coast, we have this.

Grandfather attacked in Brighton (From The Argus) (http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/4310398.Grandfather_attacked_in_Brighton/)

Answers on a postcard.

airship
22nd Apr 2009, 13:46
I was just wondering, tongue in cheek, why we are not collectively applauding these young, piratical entrepreneurs. To date they have killed no-one, yet made a killing financially. Hear, hear! IMHO, that's no worse compared to recent Wall St. bankers and should be accorded equal treatment (ie. they should only be required to voluntarily repay any 'bonuses' if they earned less than $250,000 in the last fiscal year or else be slapped with a punitive 95% tax rate - but no jail time)...?!

I believe there are various laws regarding piracy on the high seas which render prosecution of pirates very complicated indeed. In the case of this particular young Somali who's been brought to the USA for prosecution for alleged offences involving piracy, and as someone else suggested, it may indeed simplify prosecution if Obama signed a Presidential order making the Somali an official US citizen first, before charges are brought...?! :ok: :confused:

Mr Grimsdale
22nd Apr 2009, 13:51
From the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8010061.stm)


Blacksheep, I saw that too and thought about posting it here.

What on earth is the BBC doing giving these clowns publicity?
I get the distinct impression that they'd interview Heinrich Himmler and let him justify the Final Solution if he was alive now.

The 25 year old pirate in that story doesn't half tell some porkies, e.g. I'd give up piracy if I had a proper job.

airship
22nd Apr 2009, 14:15
Hear, hear! IMHO, that's no worse compared to recent Wall St. bankers and should be accorded equal treatment... The BBC reports (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8012527.stm) that the CFO of US mortgage giant Freddie Mac might have just 'topped' himself. Perhaps the prosecution might now consider a charge of 'assisted suicide'...?! :uhoh:

sitigeltfel
22nd Apr 2009, 15:24
The first time he bends down to pick up the soap in the prison shower, he will wish he had taken up basket weaving instead of piracy :E

Rollingthunder
22nd Apr 2009, 17:46
Prosocutors say he conducted himself as the leader of the pirates and is charged with piracy, conspiracy to seize a ship by force, conspriacy to commit hostage taking and related firearms offences. He faces lfe in prison.

Muse was first to board the ship, took the lead in issuing demands and said he had hijacked other ships, according to the complaint.

One of Muse's lawyers said the legal team was investigating the possibility Muse may have been kidnapped and taken hostage by the US.

Always smiling for the photo ops.

Just shoot him. Bill the mother for the cost of the bullet.

con-pilot
22nd Apr 2009, 20:34
One of Muse's lawyers said the legal team was investigating the possibility Muse may have been kidnapped and taken hostage by the US.


I'd laugh out loud over that except that I'm too busy shaking my head, because some shyster lawyer will do exactly that on this guys defense and that some liberal judge will agree.

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again until this is over.

Only a liberal can turn a pirate into the victim.


(Hell, some people here are already doing so.)

SpringHeeledJack
22nd Apr 2009, 21:26
I have no sympathy with pirates on the high seas and believe that it should have been dealt with at the scene or in the nearest juristiction. I do wonder who wins when, yes, mr pirate is kidnapped and held hostage in another country and the added cost of transporting mr p and keeping him whilst he's tried and when incarcerated. That will be a chunk of change to be sure and in these (supposedly) chaste times an overindulgence.


Regards


SHJ

tony draper
22nd Apr 2009, 22:03
When I was at sea a ship was regarded as Sovereign Territory of the country it was registered in and the flag it was flying,ergo he commited the crime on American Territory, strap the skinny fecker in old sparky.
We fought a war with the USA in 1818 because our ships stopped USA vessels on the high seas and took back British seamen temped away by the yankee dollar.
:)

Lily Rowan
23rd Apr 2009, 00:04
SHJ: I was hoping that Davaar might join the conversation and provide a response, perhaps including a fun story or historical fact, along with a pithy remark, but no such luck….

Yep, under traditional tenants of international law, ALL countries have a responsibility to prevent and prosecute piracy (and a few other crimes deemed despicable to humanity – piracy and hijacking are 2 historically accepted ones, and modern efforts have tried to broaden the classification). Therefore, if the countries of registry, victims, territorial waters, etc. are unwilling or unable to prosecute the pirates any other country may do so.