Good BA advice

[fruitbat]

Take heed, even the hacks in the city know the real problem!

TOO MANY MANAGERS HAVING MEETINGS WITH THEMSELVES. .Anthony Hilton, Evening Standard

BRITISH Airways is probably doing a bit better than today's figures would have us believe. Air travel has picked up on the transatlantic routes, to judge from the recent results of KLM and some American carriers, and BA should have benefited from that.

But it does no harm for employees and the City to think it is up to its neck in problems. It will make both rather more inclined to accept the pain to come when the result of the detailed 'future size and shape' study is revealed.

The core competence of the airline is clearly in long haul - that is what it has done best since the days of BOAC and what its fleet is designed for. But an intriguing development is that some of the existing European routes out of Gatwick are to be converted to no-frills low-cost operations. It will be a difficult trick to pull off - either a carrier is structured from top to bottom to be low cost or it isn't. Trying to be half-and-half risks doing neither well.

On an admittedly-superficial level, the best thing chief executive Rod Eddington could do to institute a culture of change would be to close and sell Waterside, BA's gleaming headquarters near Heathrow. Opened just a few years ago by Bob Ayling, then chief executive, it has come to symbolise a lot of what has gone wrong - too many unaccountable managers having meetings with themselves to the detriment of focus on the customer. Closing it would not solve BA's problems but it would send a powerful signal.

[Land ASAP]

<img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Carduelis]

IF you've got 'free' access to the net and have nothing to do for an hour, have a listen to Rod Eddington addressing the 3rd Quarter results meeting earlier today (140G):-. .<a href="http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=BAB&script=1100" target="_blank">http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=BAB&script=1100</a>. .You might need Real Player or Win Media Player.

[bintoo]

NEW TO PPRUNE,BUT JUST ONE THING TO SAY,DEAR MR.EDDINGTON,DO YOU BELEIVE THERE IS SOMETHING GREATLY WRONG WITH BA,WHEN THE MASTER TROLLEY PUSHER GETS £50,000 WHICH IS SOMEWHAT LESS THAN A F/O ON B747 FLEET.

[bintoo]

SORRY GUYS AND GALS MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMEWHAT MORE NOT LESS,FIRST TIME SHYNESS SORRY.

[exeng]

Sevenforseven,

Apologies in advance if I am teaching you to suck eggs, but I thought I would let you know that you can edit any of your posts (including deleting if you wish).

All you need to do is click the little icon at the top right hand corner of your post. (The icon displays a paper and pen)

I find the deleting function particularly useful when I wake up with a nasty headache in the morning and realise that I'd been posting away after a few pints the evening before! :)

Incidentally I agree with your point with regards to pay.

. .Regards. .Exeng

[brain fade]

Fruitbat!. .Hear Hear. Maybe the penny is starting to drop! Mind you if/when BA realises it needs to get rid of a shedload of 'managers' one gets the impression that they were the absolute LAST to cotton on! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Roobarb]

I’ve been thinking about the low cost operation at LGW (sheeeesh) and I like many thousands of others have been wondering how ‘BA’ and ‘low cost’ could be used in the same sentence. There is little doubt that such an operation would have to be run by a REALLY SKELETON management staff because the cost of running aeroplanes is more or less constant in this industry. Stellios said on TV yesterday that he didn’t achieve profitability by not offering a business class service, he made money because he doesn’t use travel agents, tickets, etc. He doesn’t have a massive corporate palace full of shiny beautiful people. Hence any competitive LGW operation will have to be along the same lines.

If this is successful, then the rubicon will have been crossed and BA will have to admit that an airline can be run without thousands and thousands of staff who are not directly connected with the service of customers and flying of aeroplanes. The game will be up for Waterworld and its empire. In a blinding flash on the Road to Damascus, BA could turn from civil service to cutting edge.

Maybe this is what Skippy has in mind. Clever move?

Incidentally, I read on another thread

&gt;&gt;&gt;printers in Basing stoke has already been asked to print 16,000 BA redundancy notices&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well that’ll be 16,000 incorrectly delivered redundancy notices then.

http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb6wee.gif

[fruitbat]

If those 16000 Basingstoke notices get the 744 addresses mixed up again, could make for some shocked Hamsters!

[Feetwet]

Sevenforeseven, by this brilliant stroke of genius would it also be true that a 747 F/O should earn less than a Captain on any other BA aircraft?. ......And will you be putting that forward as an idea to your line manager in the near future! :)

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Feetwet ]</p>

[Bigpants]

Given the very large differences in allowances this is hardly a sensible comparison eg I am a shorthaul Capt and I get perhaps one night stop a month therefore I would expect a busy 400 co to pull in more cash. .Regards Bigpants. .PS I don't have a problem with flightcrew differentials but I strongly object to some cabin crew on both short and long haul pulling in more money than the co-pilot

[fruitbat]

Apparently BA have also ordered 16,000 Waitrose Loyalty card cancellation slips as well. Could be a good hint as to any cuts?!

[Aerienne]

Er, who exactly is this mythical "master trolley pusher" (I assume this is the term for your hard working colleagues on the other side of the bullet proof door) who earns 50grand?! I want his name and staff number as it seems I am being grossly underpaid.

[Hand Solo]

I assume you mean the Cabin Service Director, often to be found sitting in his 'office' on the 777 doing 'paperwork' for the duration of the flight? If he's not there, try looking in one of the premium seats, he might be taking in a movie- or telling the FO he can't have his meal there and must go back to the flight deck immediately. In the unlikely event you've not tracked him down yet, then he may be one of the few hard working ones earning his £39K basic + allowances.

[N2616]

When are people going to realise that flight attendants are not an integral part of the crew of an aircraft, they are there to serve tea & coffee, & carry out the safety briefing. They therefore should earn a similar salary as a waitress because that is what they are.

[Hand Solo]

Well I hope you never need resuscitating on an airliner, 'cos you can bet your behind I won't be coming out from behind my locked door to help you.

[driver1]

lets take a reality check here:

Cabin crew are essential for aircraft safety and the welfare of the passengers. But every other airline in the UK seems to be able to crew thier aircraft with competent guys and girls. None with the exception of BA pay such ludicrous salaries such as £39K plus allowances.

BA is in big trouble, it needs to shed the people from top manegment down to CSDs on silly salaries and wake up to the real world of competition!

It also needs to shed its arrogance, the amount of guys in BA that i have heard refer to any deal with KLM as a takeover!! Get real guys!! KLM lost £10m in the last quarter, have a very strong alliance with Northwest and are very cash rich. BA? 160m loss, 5 odd billion debts?? Yes BA and KLM need each other, but without the dead wood.

STANDING BY FOR INCOMING!!:-)

[J-Class]

As a pax I've noticed the CSD in his/her little office on 777s next to the cockpit. I note that occasionally she or he has to tinker with the IFE console to get the next set of videos running.

Other than pressing play on the video machine, I'd be very interested in knowing what other responsibilities this individual has.

£39K basic is a very nice salary (remember, the UK national *average* is £24K). Certainly a £39K basic salary would usually require a good degree. What qualifications are required to be a CSD?

[mainfrog2]

Driver 1

because a few csd's are apparently on 39K per year doesn't mean the rest of us are, I work short haul as purser and I could earn comparable money with the low-cost airlines. I think this subject of the inherent value and necessity of cabin crew has been done to death.

[paulsamcam]

Would someone who thinks that I earn 37,000 as a basic and ends up 50,000 be so kind as to quote my building society with the figures as BA pay services can't. Infact my quote wasn't even near the sums quoted on this forum.

The starting salary for a CSD is 26,000.

[driver1]

The fact of the matter is that people at BA have had it to good for too long; high salaries, stupid costly allowance system, costly and outdated bidline system, etc etc.

If BA is to survive and prosper it needs to do something radical to bring itself up to date.

Dump the bidline system to an efficient roster system, streamline the allowance system back to what was meant to be, a subsistance allowance while away from base!! Get rid of the dead wood management structure, etc etc.

[Sir Kitt Braker]

Driver1 - All these things you mention will come to pass eventually, driven as they always are by market forces, redundancies etc. Economic realism always creeps in under pressure - it's never voted in by the unions or freely chosen by the workforce. Many of the changes are already under way over the years at BA - more flying hours per pilot, less crews per aircraft, some sections that are not bidline, not-so-silly allowances etc. The process will speed up now with the competition of the low cost operators....

[maxy101]

Driver 1 , Perhaps you could me more specific when you quote your so called unreasonable salaries. As a 747/400 copilot my salary is 50K a year.. Hardly overpaid is it?

[flyblue]

Folks, if the CSD in BA earn as much as you state (which is not confirmed) it only means that they are better than you whingers are at negotiating their salaries. So please if you are not happy with your salaries go negotiate it and stop peeping on other's pockets.. .For those who blab about other people's profession without even knowing the basics, I strongly suggest that you take a look at the manuals and your CRM, because your silly statements only prove your ignorance, quite despicable in a professional (provided that you are one).

[maxy101]

Further to my above post, most new entrants {and not so new } can't afford to live in the SE of England any more on BA salaries and have moved to cheaper locations { like France and Spain} where it is possible to live relatively well. What is your solution? Stop paying 60K a year to pushback drivers, 50K a yr to some longhaul cabin crew, 250 K a yr to R.E, or 50K a yr to me?

[Pete Otube]

Well Maxy101 - what's that with allowances 60K? You are, after all, just a co-pilot and living in Spain you can afford housing, a car and even go down the road for a holiday! Not overpaid, I agree but why should you be? Adequately paid, fairly paid (I assume you agreed to the salary)and the envy of many less rewarded. Sounds good to me.

[driver1]

I dont think the CRM card has anything to do with what is being discussed here, I am talking about reality and competition, if your unions wish to negotiate you out of a job then so be it! If upper, middle mamagement and crews at BA wish BA to go bust then carry on in the Walter Mitty world. If you want job security and a lean and competitive company that you can be proud of then sacrifices have to be made.

[Joyce Tick]

Hey- I'm a Tug Operative and I object to being called a pushback driver and accused of being paid 60k.

I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Joyce Tick ]</p>

[Land ASAP]

I have to agree with you FlyBlue; that this thread has become a sound example of the trouble BA has - That there is always someone else to blame. Quite correctly, you have pointed out that the role of the CSD has been successfully defended by the Union, BASSA/CC89, but what Hand Solo has failed to mention is that over the last 3 to 4 years, the role of CSD within BA has been 'marketed' almost as though the Chain of Command needed to be re-written, with the Captain doing the driving, the CSD doing everything else and finally the First Officer being seen but not heard, asking the CSD for permission to eat somewhere outside the cockpit.

The CSD's on the £50k+ salaries are <ul type="square"> Old Contract Old in Years. .[/list]They are retiring in droves, but sadly their disdain for 'Flight Deck' seems to rub off onto the C/C that are ready to fill their shoes. This prejudice could have quite easily been eradicated by Flight Ops/Cabin Crew management, but instead there were many quite rude demotivating changes made to both Pilot status and inflammatory enhances made to the CSD's perks. . .Consequently we whinged. They stuck two fingers up at us. The levels of 'eyedrops' in Tea rose significantly and now we're locked in to our office, at the mercy of the occasional embittered Windsor Resident who has never married but has 12 Cats who are all neutered and called Nigel.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Land ASAP ]</p>

[citrus200]

Flyblue!

I totally disagree with you!

Looking at the diff between cabin and flight crew unions with regards to pay negotiations, BALPA worked very well towards trying to secure better pay for flight crew, pre sep 11th - this was all put on hold due to the problems BA is now facing!

I operate out of EOG where alas we dont have the mystical CSD, silver badged creature! however during October operated a few flights out of LHR ( shorthaul 737 ) on these flights had 1xCSD 2xPurser and 2X CCrew - surely this signifies the problems with BA - too many managers!!!!!. .I dont know if this is the norm but I can tell you the Crew when asked about allowances - earnt more than us!!!!!

When asked about this the response from the CSD was ` doesnt make up for the basic pay though does it` - WELL IT SHOULDNT HAVE TOO - WE GO THROUGH YEARS OF TRAINING TO GET WHERE WE ARE, IN ORDER TO FLY A HIGHLY COMPLEX PIECE OF MACHINERY SAFELY DAY IN DAY OUT, STUDYING A VAST AMOUNT OF SUBJECTS TOO ACHIEVE THIS!SO WE SHOULD EARN MORE!!!! You dont get all the waiters in the restaurant demanding to earn the same as the restaurant manager do you.......

I recommend in order to cut costs all LHR based crews should come onto an agreement such as what we have at LGW! ( both CC and FC) cut out some of the bull**** scheduling agreements - such as split duties not allowed - pull together and start to run things a tad more economically!!!

Whinge over!

[maxy101]

Pete O Tube, I hope it didn't sound like a whinge. I merely try to point out that a 12 yr copilot is hardly overpaid in B.A .Especially when you remember the allowances are spent down route, unless you're a Trappist monk.I resent people making these accusations when most outside BA don't realise that 90 per cent of pilots are not on the mythical salaries of the paypoint 20 guys, in fact I flew with a 16yr Jumbo Captain who takes home less than me. That cannot be right. However, I happen to think that he is underpaid, not the other way around.Flight crew in BA are not the problem. If they were, how can the rest of the worlds airlines afford to pay far more than BA but not be in the S@@@ that BA is in?

[flyblue]

First, let me say I am glad to be finally able to have a constructive discussion on this matter. Thank you for the tone of your answers to my -I admit- "sick and tired" post.

I must start by saying that the fabulous "moi", even if working for a flag carrier, is not earning by far the amounts we are talking about. And I am not a CSD, so I am not speaking "pro domo mea" (hope latin is not too disturbing coming from a F/A!). .I do agree that maybe some of them are a burden to the community and their workload is nonexistant. I have written in a previous thread on the subject that many CSD could be easily replaced by a more performant video system (but be careful:I work every day with CCPs, AF's CSD, that are worth every penny they earn!). . . .BUT: the system made CSD/CCP what they are! The Company agreed on their salary! I object on the right for a professional to scrutinize another professional's salary and ESPECIALLY his "intrinsic value"! Because this game is neverending, and there is no winner: which profession would be next on the defendant box? Why should a 747 Captain earn more than a 767 one? Why a pilot with 25 years seniority should earn more than one with 15 years, when they are doing the same job? I know the answers to those questions so don't bother answering. What I am trying to say is that anyone should mind HIS OWN business without feeling entitled of bitching about the others, especially when <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> one isn't really competent on the subject (and to state that F/A only serve tea or coffee IS a proof that one is not competent, and probably not piloting anything bigger than Snoopy's house. Otherwise it would mean that the company made a hell of a bad job on his training. Treating F/As like waiters means that you are not using correctly the means you have at your disposal, and the day might come when you'll bitterly regret this mistake).

And about the training bla bla bla, I am STILL training, continuosly training, and the more I go on on the profession the more I realise how much you can still learn. What makes a trained experienced F/A an asset to an airline. Then let me blow my trumpet by saying that I consider myself worth my salary, and even a little more. I have attended University, speak currently 4 languages and am not what you call ugly <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . If my salary was not interesting I (and my collegues) would go for something else, and my management knows it.

The prejudice Land ASAP is talkin about is usually mutual, and carefully fed by management in order to avoid the danger of workers getting united. I personally don't have prejudice aginst anyone, knowing firsthand that there are good boys and rotten apples on both sides. Consequently I give the benefit of the doubt until proof of the contrary.

[Sick Squid]

Almost all "Rumour" or "News" element of this thread has disappeared, drowned in the tidal wave created by resurrecting this ancient debate. It's one which we've had before many times on PPRuNe, most recently in the Cabin Crew Forum, the most likely destination for this thread at the moment. Although there's actually some good, structured argument going on here following the drift (vis. Flyblue's post above) can we try to discuss the differentials in roles and salaries elswhere on PPRuNe, if we must at all?

Please, let's try to keep this one on track; for once some journalist has stumbled upon a grain of truth and not succumbed to the easy answers and regurgitated press releases.

Refer back to the first post, apropos the allegedly over-inflated middle-management and non-frontline tiers in British Airways. Keep it going accordingly, or this thread will have to be moved off R and N, and the opportunity lost to address the real issue here.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>

[driver1]

Flyblue, thank you for a constructive posting, far better than the bordering on offensive one earlier.

I agree the company has in conjunction with the unions created dinosaurs in upper/middle management down to crew / fleets / bases, that is why things have to change and change radically. No pain no gain as they say!

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: driver1 ]</p>

[Moritz Suter]

I aspire to offer a moment of clarity.

First, as a captain on a major European airline, one thing is absolutely clear to me. The value of a TRULY professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer.

I, like many others, am aware of the impact of our product as is perceived by our customers. It's the cabin staff, lead by an able CSD that determines the success or otherwise of our efforts here.

Personally, I have no problem whatsoever, in flying with a CSD who is paid even more than I am. It is he or she, through whom I am informed as to the true state of my cabin during an emergency, and it is through him or her, that my instructions during an emergency are carried out.

EXPERIENCE IS EVERYTHING!

[Hand Solo]

Well I bet you're really popular with your FOs Moritz! Just remind me again who'll be watching the shop when you nip out to the loo? And who is it that you go into the simulator with? The purser? A good CSD is valuable indeed and can set the right tone in the cabin thats keep the customers coming back. That doesn't detract from the fact that nothing scares the punters away like a big crash and there's very little a CSD can do to prevent that. That sort of safety is down to the two professionals sitting in the flight deck. Unless of course you think you can run the whole show perfectly without input from your co-pilot. Thats the sort of attitude they have at Korean and we've seen how accident prone they are, and lets face it, Crossairs record ain't been that great lately either. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

All this has nothing to do with the orignal posting of course!

[Moritz Suter]

If you can provide me with evidence where an f/o made a greater contibution to the survivability on a major incident than a CSD, I'd certainly like to hear it.. . [quote]and there's very little a CSD can do to prevent that. <hr></blockquote>. .First Officers are vitally important, provided they know their place. Very few do.

[Hand Solo]

United Airlines DC10, Sioux City. Didn't see the CSD flying the thing with no hydraulics. Would you like more examples, I have lots.

In fact I'll edit this to add the BA 744 to Nairobi that the looney pax tried to crash. Precisely where was the CSD when the FO was flying the aircraft with his left arm (which I believe had the Kenyans teeth sunk into it) whilst fighting him off with the right, before flying a perfect stall recovery after dropping 20000 feet. Now thats a question even BA won't answer!

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>

[driver1]

Moritz Suter:

quote: First Officers are vitally important, provided they know their place. Very few do.

that kind of attitude went out with the ark!

As the commander of an airliner i appreciate that it takes a TEAM to operate it safely, that goes right back to the most junior cabin crew member being a vital part of that team.

The first officer is your second in command, may i suggest that you get to know YOUR place and respect and encourage your senior team player!!

GRRRRRR <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Brakes...beer]

Moritz Suter

What about the quick-thinking Lufthansa A320 F/O last year who overrode the capt's cross-wired controls after t/o, thereby saving the aircraft?

Come on - make PPRuNe history - admit you're wrong.

[N2616]

Quite right Hand Solo, Do not get wound up by Moritz Suter, he is almost certainly cabin crew!

[The Original Geeza]

this message is in two parts,. .firstly with regards to flyblue i quote;. ." i object on the right for a professional to scrutinize another professionals salary".. .I hope when you use the word professional you are not talking about yourself, because the majority of F/A i have had the displeasure to work with have been complete f**kwits, and once again you sound like one of those. in the aviation world a professional is someone who has had the relevant training and qualifications to do the job they are in. no offence ,but 6 weeks training doesnt make you an professional. pilots take about 18 months plus to get in their relevant positions, and they operate multi million pounds worth of equipment. an engineer takes 3 years, and fixes those bits of equipment that cost million of pounds. a trolley dolly takes 6 weeks and operates a bev maker, are you catching my drift yet. try not to put your self in the same class.

secondly with regards to monitz suter i quote;. ."the value of a truly professional CSD is worth vastly more to me than my first officer". .my friend you have a problem. if you consider any body back in the cabin to be of more value to you , you need some councilling. being a captain im sure you are aware that the F/O does the majority of work on the flight deck, so when that next inflight emergency occurs you make sure you bring the CSD to the front of the plane and get him or her to fly it, ignorance is bliss eh monitz. FOOL

. . <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[flyblue]

Geezer, sorry but I really don't feel like wasting more time answering to someone who doesn't even have the basics. . .If in your company you have trolly dolly trained in 6 weeks and not Flight Attendants, I suggest you move into a serious airline, provided you have the requirements of course (of which I doubt, or at least it is your CRM you didn't work on well enough)

[The Original Geeza]

Very sorry if i offended you with the comment of trolley dolly, i meant FLIGHT ATTENDANT, very easy mistake to make. . .After listening to some of the past comments laid down by you and your colleagues, im afraid you seem to put yourselves up on this pedestal , and i cant really understand why.. .Everybody plays a role in this but by the way you talk if it werent for the likes of yourselves how could we possibly run an airline.. .With regards to training i stated that you had to go through about 6 weeks of training, please do correct me if im wrong. . .My job envolves fixing planes , my initial training takes 3 years because it is such a specialized job, once this time period is up i am considered an engineer and the industry will then issue approvals on the strength of qualifications and training that i complete.. .The irony is, when you look at the likes of myself and F/O's, some how the industry has the nerve to pay a purser or CSD (whatever your called) a considerable amount more money to yourselves rather than the people that make the effort to get off their arses and gain these qualifications. if id realised i could earn some of the sums of money you are earning i would never have bothered with college, apprenticeship,licences, etc, i would have gone straight to the airlines and asked for a job serving people tea and coffee.. .it aint rocket science if you know what i mean.. .very easy to replace cabin crew, not so easy to replace engineers and flight crew, you should remember that. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

it is the people like you and monitz suter that dont help the airlines and their image, you need to climb out of your ivory tower and appreciate that this industry works as a team. you are no better than the rest of us, bare that in mind next time you talk down to the engineers or flight crew like idiots.. We can make your life harder than you can make ours.

[ 08 February 2002: Message edited by: Geezer ]</p>

[flapsforty]

FlyBlue, you and I both know what we are worth.. .Our companies show what they believe we are worth by paying us a good salary.. .When we're out flying, by and large there is in both our companies a large dose of mutual respect and friendliness between cockpit- and cabin crew.. .The ppruners I have met in person and of whom I know for a fact that they are pilots, all have the same point of view re. our various roles in the business of transporting pax from A to B in a safe and comfortable manner.. .Ergo, I don't care what kind of silly rubbish is spouted on here by alleged pilots.

Now back to the thread. In Norwegian we have the word "synsing". Means "the propounding of views which are not backed up by any facts but based on one's gut-feelings".. .There's a lot of synsing on this thread.

Cabin service between different airlines often gets compared by looking how many FA's per how many pax.

What I'd be very interested in knowing is how the various European majors compare on "how many office staff per howm many seat kilometers"

Is there anyone out there in PPRuNe land who is in possession of these numbers, or more appropriate ones, regarding BA and other big European Airlines? . .So that we can argue based on some hard facts instead of drown in "sysnsing".

[flapsforty]

Geezer, any chance at all of agreeing to politely differ on some points and agree on others so we can get back to the main point of this thread, namely if BA and other big name airlines have too many chiefs and too few indians. (eg pilots, ground engineers, flight engineers, FA's and ground handling staff??

[what's it doing now?]

Glad I'm not "Manager-Feng Shui" at BA (real person I am told). I understand he/she is rearranging his office for max ying yang positive energy in preparation for Shape and Size. I suggest locking his office door and putting all of his office furniture firmly against it! :)

[Hand Solo]

Can't remember the exact figures from the BALPA briefings but I think BA had about 240 employees per aircraft, which was approximately 100 more than the nearest competitor (Lufthansa I think). We did have fewer flight crew per aircraft than all the other benchmark airlines (Lufthansa, Air France, KLM , United and some more I think), and they averaged more hours flying per year with fewer days off. They also did this on salaries which were lower (furthermore the salaries were not factored to account for cost of living in different countries). The most telling aspect of the whole review was that many of these figures were derived from information provided by BA and were undisputed by the company.

[flyblue]

According to the last Company briefing, AF has around 58.000 employees for 236 airplanes.. .Pilots 3800, Flight Attendants 12000, Ground Personnel 43000. .Concorde = 5. .B777-200 = 18. .B747-400 = 13. .B747-300/200 = 25. .B767 = 5. .A340-300 = 22. .A310-300/200 = 4. .B737-500/300 = 36. .A321 = 15. .A320-200/100 = 61. .A319 = 32. .Those are November numbers, since then B767 and especially 310 have started progressively being replaced by A330.

[Human Factor]

I know it was a page or so ago but:

Moritz, your attitude towards your fellow (?)professionals is dangerous. Either change it or stay on the ground. <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[flyblue]

I think that what Moritz said has been misunderstood by almost everyone. Please Moritz develop your statements or your fellow pilots will go hysteric <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Diesel8]

Does anyone know what the actual pay is for flying Snoopy's house, some one mentioned that this position existed a couple of pages back?

On a more serious subject: I find it interesting that BA wish to once again dabble in the Low Cost business. I may be wrong, but was that not what Go was all about, IIRC that was sold off. Seems like they have tried this road and failed, so why go there again? Secondly, seems like a full service airline, when they enter into the low cost arena, starts competing with themselves and start driving down their own yields.

Once upon a time, at least in my eyes, BA was the cats meow, the worlds favourite airline indeed, but recently, it seems, the level of service has dropped. I almost miss the BA employees attitude, the "We are very proper and the best in the biz", because they were and they proved it on every flight that I was on. But now I fly KLM.

[Hand Solo]

BA isn't going into the low cost business per se, it's trying to emulate what the low costs airlines do succesfully. That is utilising the aircraft efficiently, reducing costs by acheiving a high proportion of sales from the internet and offering competitively priced tickets. One of BAs problems is that in the past it hasn't competed with the low cost operators but just ran away whenever competition reared its ugly head. Perhaps our managers were of the opinion that competing was beneath us? Well now they've realised there's nowehere else to run to and they are going to have to compete, and one of the first things to do is make the public that aware that only some of BAs fares are high, and only some of the low cost airlines fares are low.

[Fil]

Think our friend Moritz is one of these 'I am your Captain of the Cabin' types.

Need we say more?