Police Civilianisation of air support

[PANews]

There are more signs that the moves to put civilians into high places have not been given up.

Over in Birmingham out goes one Chief Constable and before the new one comes in they may have decided the deal. An advert on the West Midlands Police web site probably tells only part of the story.

They are seeking someone to fill the post of Air Support Supervisor incorporating some management and control of the Air Operations Unit together with the duties of air observer. In short a civilian Deputy UEO, the sort of job a sergeant used to do. This will initially be a 12 month temporary contract, with the possibility of becoming a permanent position.

The main responsibilities of this position are to assist with the general supervision of a team of police staff. The post will ensure compliance with force policy and regulations contained within the PAOM and the CAA, whilst maximising the availability of the WMP helicopter.

How much is this worth? £25,080 - £30,621. A PC earned that a decade ago so its clear big savings are in the offing compared to the cost of a sergeant. But I guess that the cops will not be over the moon at being 'led' by any aerial PCSO and the reputed need for 'excellent interpersonal skills' may only be half of it.

Clearly the post is aimed at eventually producing the next UEO but there is some suggestion that its aimed at a retiring policeman as they want someone with previous experience as a UEO or Deputy UEO and as an air observer. Strangely enough there are few mere mortals with those skills!

So is this deal already made to cover someone without sufficient seniority to make the UEO job in one go?

[handysnaks]

Actually its being done that way because

1. The 'mother organisation' finds it increasingly difficult to work out why it takes two Sergeants to supervise ten PCs. Now, you might say that the rank(s) are required because of the upward responsibility of a UEO rather than the downward supervision, we couldn't possibly comment.

2. There is an increasing reqirement to 'flexipost' positions and not use police officers where non-police officers might be able to fill the position. If an organisation is going to do that, they would be negligent if they did not trawl around in the first instance for suitably qualified personnel. For a role such as that of Deputy UEO the requirement to be a qualified air observer is a necessity, we run a fairly lean (in personnel terms), unit. Within our own organisation there is a surprisingly large pool of candidates qualified for the job. That is not to say that they will all go for it though.

Clearly the post is aimed at eventually producing the next UEO

That is simply wrong.

but there is some suggestion that its aimed at a retiring policeman as they want someone with previous experience as a UEO or Deputy UEO and as an air observer. Strangely enough there are few mere mortals with those skills!

Within our own organisation there is a surprisingly large pool of candidates qualified for the job. That is not to say that they will all go for it though.

However, having seriously explored the potential civilianisation of all observer positions, the organisation has come to the (correct in my view), decision of maintaining the status quo

[PANews]

I stand corrected where admonished.

However just to clarify a potential misunderstading '... there are few mere mortals with those skills!' stands on the basis that the percentage of the general population this post is open to is tiny [number of pre-trained police air support professionals v the working population].

[handysnaks]

I fully understood your point, but if you had a vacancy for a surgeon (No, I'm not trying to say that a DUEO is of the same standard as a surgeon)! Would you want a qualified one or would you just recruit anybody and hope you could train them to a suitable standard? With the current strain on public sector finance, it is only right that any public organisation attempts a cost effective recruitment process.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Something similar to what's being advertised seemed to work very well in Wiltshire last time I had the privilege to work there. Dunno what was being paid, but I reckon the good peops of Wilts were getting excellent value for money.

[heliski22]

So long as "value for money" doesn't turn into "cheapest to be had" - they're not quite the same thing!!

An bear in mind a couple of old police wisdoms, so to speak.....

1. The police spend so much time worrying about what they spend, yet scarcely give a moments thought to what they waste!

2. Police are the same the world over - if they can't eat it, drink it or ride it, they'll break it!

[paarmo]

Of course the question must be asked...Why do you need Police Powers to be an observer at all?
When was the last time you landed and carried out an arrest?
When was the last time you landed and seized a firearm,ammunition or explosive?
Anything else can be carried out by a suitably trained and cheaper civilian.

[aeromys]

The DUEO and two of the Observers in Surrey are civillian staff and they work very well :ok:

[[email protected]]

This seems to be following a depressingly familiar pattern that we have seen in the Military:
1. In order to cut costs (not to improve capability) civilianisation of certain posts is proposed (generally by someone in management looking to make a name for themselves).
2. Since many of the posts require military experience, ex-mil (in this case ex-police) are recruited to pacify those who rightly highlight the operational capability issue.
3. The next time the job comes up, the 'civilian' has proved himself as capable as the miltary/policeman so the next civilian in post doesn't need to be ex-mil/police and the true distinction between mil and civilian in the job is discovered. Other similar departments/forces meanwhile hold up the operation in question as a 'new direction' and a way to provide 'value for money' and the management monkeys all jump on the same bandwagon without considering if it is the right thing to do.

The net result is a long term reduction in capability which is near impossible to rectify since it will now cost more to recover said capability and the bean counters won't wear it.

The second is that your mil/bobby has had a nice job removed from his prospective range of employment and recruiting starts to be an issue because there is no respite or variation from the normal front-line duties.:ugh:

[Geoffersincornwall]

For once you and I can agree over something. I suspect that in this case the people making the decisions know little of the front line tasks and just how 'tuned-in' the observers have to be to work effectively. This first step away from the normal police helicopter crew is not the one to fear. It's the next one where the temptation to dilute basic crew skills further is likely to be the problem.

The difficulty is the finacial side of things is not getting any easier. I had the pleasure of flying the Met back in the late 70's and getting the cash for a Bell 47 was tricky - and we were the only ASU in the country! Now look at things. ASUs have proved their indispensability but the cops cost a lot and their pensions are costing them dear. Something has to give so I guess saving a few quid on a DUEO is seen by some as an acceptable move.

I suspect that the next year will see many of our government funded organisations (including the cops and the military) making some difficult choices as we run out of cash.

The last time this happened the RN cut back on stationery and we ran out of paper. This resulted in the famous base-commanders temporary memo making it compulsory for paper to be used on both sides before being discarded. One wag stuck a copy on each toilet door. :}

G :ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

Spot on Crab!

The only bit to add I suggest is that first time round the "civilian" job is only made acceptable (cash wise) by the addition of a mil/police pension!

[paarmo]

If you got paid simply for driving around in a flash car wearing Ray Bans then the queue for the job would stretch for miles. You get paid for rolling in the gutter with drunks,confronting determined criminals and in your spare time picking up body parts from the road to prevent anyone seeing them being licked by ferrel dogs. That is the reality of Policing, not flying around in a helicopter like Prince Andrew.
As for down time from front line duties is concerned, give me a break that's what you get days off and annual leave for. If you don't like front line Policing then get promoted.

[Fortyodd2]

"When was the last time you landed and carried out an arrest?"

8 occasions in the last 12 months arresting 17 crims in the process.

If it was simply about training you might have a point. You cannot buy experience or "Copper's Nouse" in a package and issue it to a trainee.

[paarmo]

Coppers Nouse? As Jim Royal would say ...My A**E.
There is no such thing just professionalism and observing human beings and their movements. It's not magic. As for the 17 arrests in 12 months would that I could believe you.
The Pilots are civilians and that does not detract from the service so why should they be the only civilians in the aircraft.

[J.A.F.O.]

To go back to the original post, they must be looking to recruit an ex-Bobby with a pension because no-one would do the DUEO's job (for long) at that money if it was their only income.

[timex]

As usual nothing to do with quality...just how many and how cheap.

[paarmo]

This has nothing to do with money in theory.It is horses for courses.Why take a highly trained Police Officer from the steets and put him in a helicopter when you can train a person in 2 weeks to do the same job. This spurious argument that you need to have a Police background to be an observer does not carry much weight nowadays.
The only reason that Police Officers fight against the obvious is because of the kudos of wearing flight overalls and posing in the passenger terminal talking to P.C.'s Heckler and Koch.
Good job you don't know where I live isn't it ?

[Fortyodd2]

Paarmo - you want dates and times? PM me.

[timex]

Paarmo, not sure where you get your info from but its wrong..

[[email protected]]

Paarmo - you are either a young thruster trying to make a name for himself or one of those management monkeys I mentioned earlier - at least you seem to have a chip on both shoulders:yuk:

[heliski22]

Paarmo, I spent thirty years in the police, albeit in a different jurisdiction. I cannot think of a single instance where I would have chosen "freshly-trained but without experience" over "experience", either as a constable (in your ranks) looking for back-up or as a Sergeant detailing people to get the job done.

Would we take a freshly trained Air Traffic controller and let him/her loose in London Control, or take a CPL out of flight school and thrust upon them the full responsibilities of AOC work?

Hmm, didn't think so. But why not - it's that funny little thing called "experience"again, isn't it?

[J.A.F.O.]

paarmo

You're wrong.

[handysnaks]

I suspect Paarmo isn't bothered whether anyone agrees with him, I think he has achieved what he wanted..

[timex]

Didnt we go round this buoy once before.........?

[paarmo]

You spend 2 years being trained in your Probation. 4/5 years doing the job gaining " experience " and then join the air support unit. You attend a short training course and then join the flight crews as a junior member to gain "experience ". After 4/6 months you are considered " experienced ", You spend another 18 months on the crew and return to normal duties. Replaced by another " INEXPERIENCED " trainee. Seems to me that experience in aircrew observing is gained by work experience. Wouldn't it be better to employ someone whose whole working life was dedicated to gaining experience in the job rather than chopping and changing all the time.
Yes it probably would be cheaper as the observers would not be paid a Police Officers rate for obvious reasons but the experience contained within the unit would be invaluable rather than chopping and changing all the time. As an aside , how many civilians do you employ in the iniquitous central control rooms nowadays.I know some are crap, but there again so are some Police Officers.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

:mad: Its quite obvious that paarmo has no clue what he is talking about, or hes a civvie that cant get a decent job cause there all taken by experienced police officers.
A police force does not save money by employing civvy observers. If it did there would be loads.
Would you really put the least experienced basically trained person in a police forces most expensive asset. Answer......only if you were a boss who ain't got a bl**dy clue what an airsupport unit does.

Does that help you paarmo (sir)

[timex]

Paarmo, sorry mate but more tosh. When qualified the guys and girls will stay on Air support for quite a few years, they will only go back to core Policing when they want or if some bright spark decides to civilianise the Units...

Your address says Teeside, give their Air support a call I'm sure they could put you right on your concerns.

[heliski22]

By that logic, Paarmo, then nobody would ever, nor should ever, move out of any position within the police. No transfers into Traffic Branch, Detective Branch, Drugs, Crime Ordinary, Fraud, Community Policing - pick you area - or back. Perhaps even promotion would be disallowed, too be experienced to be allowed to advance?

Hardly!!

Anyway, you've had your sport and risen a few bites, now go away!

[darrenphughes]

Quick question lads. What is the average amount of experience or hours that a "new guy" entering the ranks of a police aviation unit in the UK need to have? Is it like many of the US aviation units where you need just the bare bones commercial cert?

[Aerodynamik]

Paarmo, you have some very strong opinions. It's a shame that they are obviously made from a position of ignorance.

If we are going with your theory, why have military pilots in the Forces. 99% will never come into contact with the enemy so why not have civvies flying the 146's, C-17's, Seakings etc. There's no need for these pilots to be military is there?

Why have you got to be a soldier to fly an Apache, oh, may be it's because you have done your bit at the sharp end so are able to offer a better service to those on the front line now.

[Coconutty]

To go back to the original post, they must be looking to recruit an ex-Bobby with a pension because no-one would do the DUEO's job (for long) at that money if it was their only income. :rolleyes:

I hear he's a very nice chap ;)

What can I say, other than "Watch this space" - only 6 days left to apply.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[timex]

Quick question lads. What is the average amount of experience or hours that a "new guy" entering the ranks of a police aviation unit in the UK need to have? Is it like many of the US aviation units where you need just the bare bones commercial cert?

Average hours would be 1500-2000 hours with about 500 Twin, quite often the requirements are a lot higher.

[Droopy]

with about 500 Night errrr... where'd you get that from?

[MightyGem]

Quick question lads. What is the average amount of experience or hours that a "new guy" entering the ranks of a police aviation unit in the UK need to have? Is it like many of the US aviation units where you need just the bare bones commercial cert?

Darren, unlike in the US, all Police pilots over here in the UK are civilians. The minimum experience required is much as the previous post says, although some units ask for more.

[darrenphughes]

Cheers lads, I always thought that police aviation operations would benefit more from an experienced pilot non-police officer type than the experienced police officer with 200 hours under his belt. Probably the best of all would be an experienced officer with lots of flight time, but I'm sure they're few and far between.

Not really much to do with this topic though, sorry for the hijack!:ok:

[Epiphany]

Droopy,


errrr... where'd you get that from?


Why do you think that most Police pilots are ex-forces?

[zorab64]

Ex-forces, with appropriate experience, because that experience brings with it a significant likelyhood of safer operations in what, to most civvies, is an alien environment - that's not to say that all civvie pilots are no good, as a number have stepped up to the plate in recent years.

There's a separate issue, which goes with the debate started by this thread, that of the ex-police DUEO salary relfecting a pension. Pilot pay has, sadly & for many years, reflected the fact that most of the ex-military pilots are in receipt of a pension - somewhat grating to those who haven't!!:*

[Droopy]

Epiphany, I didn't say anything about police pilots being ex forces [though in the UK about 75% are]. I was commenting on the unusually high figure of 500hrs night.

[Epiphany]

Ahh apologies Droopy - I though that you were asking where pilots get 500 night hours from.

[Heliringer]

I think it's 500 hours TWIN not NIGHT. **** me you would have to be a vampire to have that!

[FloaterNorthWest]

Heliringer,

Do a couple of years on a busy Police Unit and you will have 500hrs night..........and feel like a vampire!

FNW

[Mr_G_Box]

2700hrs and big teeth!!!:E

[Mick85]

2000 hours total 1500 as pilot in command 500 on twins 50 hours at night PAOM 1

[capt tosspot]

heres one to lob into the saving money equation - go down to 2 crew. Pilot plus observer. Slash budgets in a stroke, reduce coffee bills, equipment budgets oh the list of benefits is endless... or is it?

Could it work? Anyone tried it? lots of snags but are there any benefits? :confused:

[Droopy]

Anyone tried it

Yes, Devon and Cornwall.

[paarmo]

The other question to be asked apart from why not civilianise the whole system is do we as council tax and national taxpayers actually need Police helicopters. It's a bit like having a dishwasher. Very nice but is it really an essential in these straightened times.

[fkelly]

straightened

Straitened. Sp. see me after class, 50 lines:- "I must not challenge the accepted wisdom of police air support"

[Retro Coupe]

A dishwasher is a luxury item a police helicopter is not. Get rid of them and watch car crime go through the roof.

[paarmo]

1. There is no accepted wisdom of air support.
2. Car crime going through the roof? What do you do fly over peoples houses and drop immobilisers and vehicle security devices down on the locals?. The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.
3.If that's the best two arguments you can come up wirh then don't civilianise....get rid.

[Retro Coupe]

As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.



Criminals learn to adapt. Hook and Cane for instance. There are still plenty of motorists out there who leave their vehicles unattended with the keys in at petrol stations, on frosty mornings while car warms up etc.

[griffothefog]

Zorab64,

Could you explain to me the meaning of "appropriate experience" in your last post?
I'll give you credit for previous sorties involving hovering behind clouds over Belfast at 1500'....:ok:

But as for hiding behind trees and trawling well known safe low level routes over Boscombe Down or N.Ireland... I'm not sure where that holds any distinct advantage ( in a modern ASU) over a well disiplined 2000 hour civvy trained pilot, well aversed in operating at low level in poor weather under sometimes intense commercial pressure and to un-prepared landing sites (HEMS or VIP/charter). Familiarity in intense night ops will probably only ever come from serving with a civvy police unit.

Beleive it or not, this is a genuine question and not a dig at ex mil guy's. :=

[J.A.F.O.]

paarmo

You're just embarrassing yourself now, it really is time to stop posting. There are threads that you can make a contribution to, I'm sure; but this isn't one of them.

If you're just trying to provoke a response then well done, it's worked, so you may leave now, job done.

[therealpieboy]

Paarmo,

I find your comments ill informed to say the least, were you bullied as a child by an Air Observer, Or have you just failed selection:eek::eek:

If what you say is true then no car under 10 years old gets stolen:p

If you believe that I'll tell you another....................Father Christmas IS real!!


As was said above if you wanted to provoke a debate, well done, but I seriously think your time here is done.

by the way I'm biased, just like J.A.F.O i'm JAFO.

[wallsend]

Further to "The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few."

Very few?! Er, no. Lots and lots actually. Retro quite correctly mentions hook and cane but in most of the areas I currently fly, new cars are being stolen using keys taken from simple break ins. These lovely new vehicles (all fully immobiliser and alarm fitted) are then often used to transport away goods from the house in question. In my own current experience, when air support is overhead on these incidents, these vehicles and goods are always recovered (and suspects arrested). Without air support, they usually get away.

[R44-pilot]

Ok, dont jump down my throat......

But, do we need £3m+ helicopters for the Police? granted probably the Met and the biggest of citys like Manchester etc....
But what about places like Yorkshire and that? I'm not saying Yorkshire dont deserve a nice new expensive twin etc its a vast vast area to cover I just look at some of what the U.S Police, and other countrys manage with, 500's 206's AS350's etc..... (and im sure a 500E could get places as faster or faster!) and think either how many more we could have flying or how much money could be saved??

Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to fly EC135's and MD902's and envy the guys who do, but the heli's that are used solely for Police, i.e. not HEMS/Police joint use, do they really need to be £3m+ machines?
could a nice 500E or AS350 not do the same job around the more rural countys?

The camera systems seem so advanced these days the pilots dont seem to need to go really low to get good coverage or pursue a stolen vehicle, most seem to be quite high to get a good field of view and see the road ahead......

I dont know, its just more of an opinion/question really so dont attack me ppruners! But curious for your thoughts!
:ok:

[Sulley]

R-44: singles not an option for police ops- not allowed!

[therealpieboy]

R-44 as well as the thing about twins over cities, you have to consider the weight of the camera, nitesun, nav computer ANPR kit and all the other stuff then add three or more crew (sorry, pilot and two 'passengers') and it starts to add up, only 135/145 and 902 will do.:ok:

[R44-pilot]

Yeah, I know there not allowed, my thoughts are why are they not allowed? how bigger a benefit is it in some areas of the UK to have a twin over a single?
Like I say the U.S manage fine with there singles doing mostly the same job for around 1/3 of the cost.....
I cant see why (if its only used by Police and not HEMS) that all the gear couldnt be put in 500,206,350 etc.....

Just my 2 cents.....

[R44-pilot]

Ahhh yes, thats one very valid point actually.

I know they carry alot of kit, how much more kit and crew do the UK Police carry than the U.S etc. The U.S police see to have a nightsun and thermal imaging gear and extra comms.

[therealpieboy]

It came as a big suprise to me but most US units don't carry the latest FLIR/Wescam kit, the new generation stuff is much heavier and if you have a look inside both US and European Police aircraft the kit is mounted in a much more substantial way. The US all tend to use Police officers as Pilots and cut the crew to two. Like most UK units we fly at nearly max weight. We have cut our kit to as low as it will go. Believe me there's enough work for two officers and no way could one officer/observer do more than do a missing person search. Anything more you need two observers.

[R44-pilot]

Yeah I can see theres a big work load for the crew on UK ships and obviosuly theres no way of cutting that down, I never actually meant chop the crew down, I was just trying to work out what the U.S crew have to operate and between how many next to the UK crew.

No its a fair point, I didnt realise most of the UK Police units were operating at nearly MAUW, I thought there would be plenty of power in hand to be honest. And if thats the case theres the first and perhaps only argument for the twins, no point debating for something that cant do the job right!

I know the flir system is invaluable as is all the other kit onboard.
I wonder why they havent tried making the kit lighter, the Japenese are pretty good at that sort of stuff, Technology moves on in leaps and bounds, I mean a 50" LCD TV now weighs less than an old 21"!
I know what you mean about the mounting of it all, its like a control room on its own for the rear observer in the back, little room for much else.

Its a fair point, I think the UK and the U.S are very very different enviroments to fly in, personally I've only flown in Florida for a little go but all the straight roads and highways etc must make it much easier to Navigate vehicle chases and such.

Thanks for your thoughts :ok:

[wallsend]

Re the kit question and single v light twin debate.

Several years ago, I flew some US Secret Service blokes on a recce for a official visit. The aircraft was an EC135T1 with a fairly "standard" UK police fit. They brought a ropy-looking, small 25 cent digital camera but they put it away when they saw what we could do for them in the imagery sense.

The Americans told us that they usually went to places in the States that only had a few bino-equipped B206-class machines and expected the same in the UK. They were knocked out by our "quality over quantity" approach it what would now be seen as an older aircraft.

However, I agree that the new equipment does come at a price in weight.

[chopper2004]

Coming back to the R-44 issue, anyone checked out the Robbo website and downloaded the brochure for the R-44 Raven II police helicopter? Might be interesting.

[Fortyodd2]

"Technology moves on in leaps and bounds"

R44bloke - quite true. Sadly the CAA, EASA, and ECUK's design department move on in small, stumbling steps documented to the Nth degree and desperately trying to keep up with what the customer wants. You also need to be aware that, if it isn't made in batches of thousands then it is ludicrously expensive. Police Air Support in the UK is where it is today because we have had the last 20 odd years to find out what does and doesn't work, what is and isn't safe and what's just to damn big or heavy to carry. Which brings us back to the experience thing again.

Paarmo - had a chance to check the figures and I was wrong - should have read 8 landings and 14 arrests - 8th April 08 to 8th April 09.

[therealpieboy]

PAARMO,

what you have to think about before you make sweeping statements about the cost of Police staff versus the cost of Police Officers.

Police officers £35k P.A. yes expensive I'll give you that, however Police staff, starting at around 22k basic, on top of that they will get 20% shift allowance plus weekend enhancements, some pay double time on sundays, more annual leave days than Police officers.:eek:

Suddenly Police Staff are not that cheap. Now take into account the fact that Police officers are on duty 24/7 they can be kept on after shift, they can be contacted at home at any time and told to get to work. Police Officers have a stringent disipline code covering, quite rightly Alcohol levels and drug use.:=

Whilst the Police do their level best to save money, civilianization is not always the cheapest options, many departments that have been civilianized are now going back to Police Officers.

[whoateallthepies]

Having spent many years flying Police ops here's my two penn'orth.

Real bobbies would rather be talking to real bobbies in the aircraft. Plus there were times when we landed and an arrest was made by the (real) bobby from the aircraft. My personal feeling is that Police units should be staffed by members of Her Majesty's Constabulary. But that's just my personal feeling.

And who is this pie person? How dare you! http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m412/omanjohn/2637784011.jpg

[jayteeto]

Who is this PAARMO bloke??? Immobilisers have made things 10 times worse up here. If they wanted a car in the past, they hot wired it, they then moved on to hook and cane burglaries to get keys. That got too time consuming, so now the official name is confrontational thefts. The latest MO is to kick the front door in and beat up the homeowner until they produce the keys. Gender doesn't matter. It is not worth owning a high powered sports car around here, they WILL have it eventually. Ask my neighbours. You do not know what you are talking about.
1 v 2 observers?? I'll tell you what, show me somebody who can keep the camera on a car doing 100mph through the narrow streets of anfield AND keep up a street by street commentary whilst reading the A to Z AND change radio frequencies when going from area to area and I will buy that person a lot of beer and ask him/her to join my flight. Some stuff can be done with one, when it REALLY matters you need two..... end of story. :ok:
PS. I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.

[Spanish Waltzer]

I would like to think that I could do an observers job to an acceptable standard if I stopped piloting, I am not a bobby. We have landed to arrest twice in 5 years.

Jayteeto - I am sure you could but how much is that because you have been part of that team as a pilot for a number of years and so have started to 'think' like a bobby. Would you feel you could do the job to an equally acceptable standard as a newly recruited civvy?

[jayteeto]

Agreed absolutely, but at the moment I would not be able to apply if I couldn't pilot anymore. So is a comprimise needed??

[Spanish Waltzer]

not suggesting common sense and applying 'best man for the job' theory surely!!:rolleyes:

[Regain]

Just thought I'd point out (to defend) Yorkshire. You may be interested to know that West Yorkshire is quite busy. The busiest with only one helicopter maybe! And not so much rural.

[therealpieboy]

I seem to recall this being written recently, think it was PA news that gave the official heads up that West Yorkshire's aircraft was the busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902.

Since it was PA news that started this thread, he may wish to comment on this one.

[Coconutty]

Years ago - 1970's - Ford Cortina / Escort - 1 key would start just about any of them. No damage. ;)

A few years on - Austin Metro - steering column lock more difficult to "jiggle" ( more pins in the tumbler ) so a new method evolved of bodging a screwdriver hole in the door skin to access the door locking rods, and then "scaffing" the steering column lock and using the screwdriver to turn the switch box ( minus it's lock ) and start the engine.

Car manufacturers then beefed up the door locks with steel re-inforcing plates, and introduced micro-chips in the key fob linked to an immobiliser so that door wouldn't unlock and the engine would not start without the correct key being present.
This resulted in more of the "Car-Key" burglaries where the keys are stolen first - either from the owner directly, at a petrol station forecourt, stationary at traffic lights ( "jamming" ) from handbags / coat pockets etc., or by the hook & cane method through the owners letter box if keys are left in view, or even breaking into the owners house and searching for the keys or threatening the owner to hand them over.

What are car companies doing now ? - Introducing "biometric security" - where the owner / legitimate user will have to scan their thumb / finger print onto a dashboard reader. What will ( some ) car thieves do ? -
Likely knock the owner out and physically remove a finger or thumb ! :yuk:

Trust me this WILL happen - those who are out stealing high powered cars with these new security systems really don't care ! :\

Anyone got a MkII Cortina for sale :confused:

Now - what's' all that got to do with civillianising the DUEO job at West Mids ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[paarmo]

Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.
Whoateallthe pies tells us that Police Officers on the ground like to talk to Police Officers in the air. A spurious argument as they were probably sent to the job in the first place by a civilian in the Control Room and as it is a disciplined service you get told to talk to whoever is in the best position to see what is happening whether you like talking to that person or not.
Therealpieboy increases the wages of the civilian air observer but fails to mention that any new civilian staff can be employed on whatever wages and conditions are deemed correct for the post.Unlike Police Officers whose wages are centrally negotiated. It may be in more prosperous times that the wages being offered are more than a Police Officer's but that is the market force and was not the question in the first place.
It boils down to the fact that there is no reason why a suitably qualified civilian cannot be employed as an air observer , gain experience alongside an experienced crew and then continue to do the job until his pension. ( a lot less than a Police pension )
If you want him to land and arrest people you could make him a Special who has more powers than these "Mickey Mouse" uniform carriers I see wandering about holding hands and chatting to each other as if they are on a walk to church.
Can't remember who said it but no I have never been frightened by an air observer , in fact only one person has ever frightened me at all and he is now in a secure hospital and will continue to be there until he is at least 75. Neither have I been turned down as an air observer. I have only ever been turned down for one job in my life and I still get my revenge by making sure I park my shopping trolley as far away from the shop on the car park as possible.

[Regain]

Paarmo, I didn't want to bite but you are a very funny and obviously brave man who deals really well with his 'issues'. Anyway, sorry to get personal but the real reason civilian observers (ab-initio) would not work is that they would have little or no forces/service type work ethic and would be rubbish. Classy argument hey?

We have visited all this before but it won't go away because senior police officers and authorities see reform of Air Support Units as a CV ticking tool. Cynical? Yes.

A question I asked before is 'Would the aircraft still benefit from CAA easements and police operating techniques etc. if manned entirely by civilians?' Obviously those in power can change the rules if need be but the general public have come to expect the police policing. PCSOs and civvy JAFOs? Get real.

Obviously it's in some close-to retiring observers interests for this to go ahead. Cynical? Yes.

[Regain]

"Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that."

Paarmo, what would you rather, your car nicked off the drive or stabbed in the eye because you would not hand over your keys or your house ransacked in the search for them?

The latter sounds worse to me.

[Regain]

I bit, didn't I?

[Aerodynamik]

Having civvies as Observers is no different to having PCSOs replacing PCs, teaching assistants replacing teachers, custody officers replacing prison officers and 'traffic officers' replacing police traffic officers. It is all dumbing down by this government of skilled roles.
I have no doubt that that they all do reasonable jobs but personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.

[J.A.F.O.]

Aerodynamik

personally I would rather see a FULLY trained, experienced and capable person doing the roles.

I think that you'll find that those civilians currently employed in the role together with their pilot and air observer colleagues plus the officers that they support might take umbrage at the implication that they are not fully trained, experienced or capable.

I don't imagine any of them would advocate full civilianisation nor totally ab initio recruitment of observers directly from civvy street, either; but that does not mean that those currently in the role are not capable.

[paarmo]

Regain...the fly was on the water and yes you took it but never fear the keep net is almost full.
JAFO ab initio ? Que?

[huntnhound]

This is now wildly off topic but I may as well add a couple of observations.
1. Paarmo. You are clearly a bitter and resentful ex-observer who has been rightfully tenured from your post. Your comments are clearly intended to stir.

2 PAN. It is none of your business what the West Midlands Police do or dont do. Each Police service runs its own affairs according to the needs of the local community. The West Midlands Police are leaders in British Police aviation and have been at the forefront of it long before the tired PAN publication came into being. Whatever decision has been made by the Force has been made for the right reasons...end of.

HnH

[jayteeto]

Straying slightly off topic again, but I need to answer....

Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.

PAARMO, Immobilisers have definitely made it HARDER to steal a car, without a doubt. Unfortunately in your world, the criminal says "Ah, too difficult" and goes home. In my REAL world, the criminal says "I am still having that car, so how do I get it?". This means he needs the keys........... Think about it.
So when I say worse, I mean that the severity of a car theft now depends on how much resistance an owner decides to put up. Some give up the keys straight away, some are already dead................. Worse

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

"The West Midlands Police are leaders in British Police aviation "

Can't guess where you work:uhoh:

[huntnhound]

Sorry I can help you.

I work at the first unit to achieve the Police Air Operators Certificate.;)

Hnh

[handysnaks]

I work at the first unit to achieve the Police Air Operators Certificate.
So why is it 002 then?

I see your ;) and I raise it ;):p

[huntnhound]

anyone else claim to be 001?

[Marco]

Police Aviation Services

[paarmo]

As an outsider looking in , who actually trains the air observers to the standard required for the job? Presumeably this certificate that you are talking about.

[PANews]

Sorry missing from the parade... but I think I have caught up now.... [yes I know 'light blue touchpaper and retire....' thats a common ruse]

The item about West Yorkshire's aircraft being the 'busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902' was pretty standard stuff issued by West Yorks .... it appeared in the local papers but probably only got global via PAN and some of the aero wires. The only thing I added was to do the sums to 'prove' the statement against the high time EC135 and expand the story. Press offices do sometimes get themselves in a muddle.

I probably take a bit of an exception to huntnhound and his assertion that the original thread is none of the business of PAN. I beg to quarrel with that. What the 'police' choose to do is indeed their choice but it has been under the scrutiny of the citizen for nearly 200 years and if I am anything I am now a taxpayer and YOU, like me in the past, are very much under scrutiny. Ask those poor officers in the G20 camera views. If in the end what the 'police' do is right fair enough but we 'the people' actually have the right to ask the questions - even if they are crass.

If PAN is 'tired' fine, but I guess you read it to make that judgement.

To be pedantic PAN was born before the WMP operation started.:ok:

[Aerodynamik]

As an outsider looking in

Are you? I would never have guessed.

[huntnhound]

I am sure the residents of the West Midlands will be heartened to learn that ratepayers in Essex are contributing towards their running costs:hmm:

Ok Ok ....The West Midlands police were the first Police Force to be awarded the POAC. All others followed. Furthermore they have operated more aircraft types than anyone else.

PAN.......... Try charging for it and see how much money you make:ooh:

Hnh

[PANews]

Huntnhound... you really do need to research your statements. West Midlands has not flown the most aircraft types.... somewhere I sadly wrote all of them down before launching my quill .... pen... typewriter etc.

Even allowing for the Chipmunk, Rapide, PA23 Apache, Sioux, Navajo, Golden Eagle ..... of yesteryear the list is very much shorter than many many others.

The issue of a PAOC does not in any way reflect first in the field, if that were the case the Met would undoubtedly have been the first, not number 20, Devon & Cornwall probably the second rather than 17. Its all about who coralled the paperwork first and knowing many of the people involved at the time 'tomorrow' really was soon enough for most of them.

And.... just take a little peek over your shoulder..... :eek: I do not actually spend my time reading the job ads on the West Midlands Police web site. I received a request from someone very close to you to go to that page and [specifically] put it on Pprune.:oh:

As for the 'price' of PAN. That actually fits in perfectly with the Business Plan and has done from day 1. When you get there .... and I got there .... like me you will have assessed [researched!] your former colleagues with their [generally] sealed shut wallets and you will make the same decision. If it was a US scenario and not a UK one that decision would have been quite different. That is why the ALEA business plan works perfectly in the US but, much to their exasperation, does not work in the UK. Are you a member? It costs pennies ....

I guess not. :ok:

[huntnhound]

too easy...........

[paarmo]

As no one would tell me about this air worthiness certificate or whatever it is called , I have done some research.
Civilians train the Police as air observers.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence.
Civilians drive the aircraft.
Civilians maintain the aircraft.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response.
You were all once civilians.
You will all become civilians once again.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job.
I think that you should have a long hard look at your prejudices and at least think about civilians as human beings as you are yourselves.You are not supermen, but highly trained Police Officers who should be policing and not flying.

[anonythemouse]

paarmo, if you have done some research why are you rabitting on about an "air worthiness certificate or whatever it is called"?

In answer to your statements:

Civilians do not train our observers!
I take it the 'checkers' you refer to are the CAA, if so you can have that one.
Yes, I am a civilian (with 24yrs military experience behind me).
Yes, civilians do maintain the aircraft (though ours is ex mil).
Our civilian radio operators make us aware of the jobs, the decision to go on them is made by the Police members of the crew from a tactical point of view and finally the pilot from a safety/aircraft point of view.
Actually, the civilians tend to get in the way a lot of the time (from a tactical point of view) because they lack the understanding of what is required.
Yes I was a civilian once but, having joined and served in a uniformed, disciplined organisation I do not think like a civilian or react like one so even if I no longer have the uniform I will never be a 'civilian' again compared to someone who has not been through the same life path as myself.
One of the reasons that Army pilots provide such a good aviation service to the ground troops is because a great many of them spent their early years doing the jobs of the troops that they support. In fact, when I first went aviating it was a pre requisit (what can you bring to the party?) to getting on the course.

And before you use the arguement of me being ex mil and doing the job as a civvi to justify your approach, CRAB@DAAVN had it right in that that approach for Observers would be used as the thin end of the wedge and soon the 'ex' qualification would be dropped in the name of money saving and not for increasing or maintaining efficiency!

[therealpieboy]

PAARMO,

I'm with Annoythemouse on this.

I've got twenty four years experience of Beat work, Traffic and Firearms, so when I speak to Police officers on the ground I know what their difficulties are because I've been there, I know what they can and can't do because I've been there. I don't waste airtime by talking drivel and asking them to do things I know are wrong/impossible. Find me a non ex Police air observer who has that background and I'll gladly buy you and them a drink and admit I am wrong on this one.:}

As regards inflating civilian wages, I don't think so, staff wages are calculated on many things, technical knowledge and skill being just two of the pertinent ones here. Many forces, my own incuded are going back to police officers in what were civilian roles for exactly the same reasons I've posted previously on this thread.

[Fortyodd2]

I Know I shouldn't but:
Paarmo, I believe you are referring to the Police Air Operations Certificate.
In our unit,
Civilians train the Police as air observers. No. Police Officers do.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence. Correct if you mean the CAA Flight Ops Inspectors and ours was formerly a Police Pilot.
Civilians drive the aircraft. Correct, but in our unit, all ex mil because they all have thousands of hours of “Operational” experience and are used to working with and for the ground units that they support.
Civilians maintain the aircraft. Correct, but our engineer cut his teeth in the mil and has an understanding of “Operational requirements”.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs. Wrong. Civilians request on behalf of the police officers on the ground. Police officers decide whether the task is accepted or not. Once the task has been accepted it is generally useful if they don’t get involved unless asked for.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response. Wrong. That is done between the ground commander and the Police Observers.
You were all once civilians. Correct.
You will all become civilians once again. Correct, I already am – but I still think in an “Operational” way when I am doing the job.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job. Wrong. I regularly operate with a “Civilian” Observer. But, prior to that he had been a Police Observer for 10 years and didn’t need to be trained as one. Prior to that he had 20 years of pounding the beat in the same area he now patrols from the air. Given enough peanuts we could train a monkey to do the job. The problem is we don’t have anywhere near enough peanuts. A 2 week course is barely enough to teach someone any more than the basics of being a police observer and how to operate the equipment. If you have to teach them to think like a police officer the course would drag on for an unacceptable length of time.
A police officer in a helicopter, with all the available role equipment, is a police officer with a greater range of tools in his toolbox than those on the ground with which to detect and deter crime, search for the missing, the absconded and the hiding. Using the knowledge and experience that they gained whilst “Bobbies on the beat”, chasing crims through estates and gardens and knowing the places that they will hide is what makes the Air Support Team so effective.
Annoythemouse and pieboy are spot on. Listen to those in the know. Your research was not thorough enough.

[Retro Coupe]

Game, set and match me thinks!!:}

[paarmo]

Lots of indignation but very little dispute over my observations.
We train our own observers!!!!...unless you have a secret research and development arm which designs and manufactures the equipment on the aircraft I think you will find that you were originally trained on this equipment by civilians.
Civilians request the air support unit but Police Officers decide whether the job is in the remit...this would be so even if a Police Officer requested a job and at the end of the day it is down to the civilian driving the aircraft to accept it depending on various things such as weather and serviceability of the aircraft.
Civilians do not coordinate the ground response....Unless you have real time access to the force command and control system I think you will find that they do in most cases even though the control room supervisor is a Police Officer.
Originally it was asked whether a civilian could do the job and it was greeted with cries of derision yet Fortyodd2 sits with a civilian in his crew and appears very happy with the situation.It is not clear but it would appear that Fortyodd 2 is also a civilian doing an observer's job.
Anonythemouse seems to think that he is not a civilian. Try getting in to your old Forces Base sir and see what happens.
Not so much game set and match as scoring the winning goal in extra time at Wembley.

[Fortyodd2]

"It would appear that Fortyodd 2 is also a civilian doing an observer's job". Wrong again!!! check my profile.
"secret research and development arm" - that would be what used to be called PSDB. Where do you think the manufacturers get all their equipment changes/mods/enhancements and user input from?
"real time access to command and control" - We have real time access to the job by looking out of the window. Command & Control doesn't even get close.

[therealpieboy]

advantage Fortyodd2!!

Paarmo, where do you get your info from, have you ever visited a Police unit? Are you or have you ever been involved in operational Police work Civilian or Warranted? It may seem like I'm prying, but it is important. Most people on this thread have nailed their colours to the mast. It would be good to know if you are talking from some sort of experience.:ok:

[anonythemouse]

paarmo, you are like indigestion after a kebab (just won't go away and are very annoying) Don't just read my words, read what they are saying. I might be a civvi because I am no longer serving in the forces but compare me to a civvi who has never served and you will find that I am a very different beast to them. I think that you will find that the civvi observers that have been spoken about are ex police observers which is what would make them different to a civilian who came along and only learnt the job of an observer. Having been the man at the sharp end means that you are in a much better position to provide those at the sharp end today with an understanding of what they want and what is required. Police observers think like policemen! Our new observers are trained by observers currently serving with the unit, so where does the civilian come into it, oh yeah I forgot, their mum & dad might have been a civilian at one time. Civilians do not request Air Support, they pass on a request from a police officer. Could you enlighten us as to what connection you have with aviation? Have looked at your profile but it doesn't show anything.

[paarmo]

Dear Forty. You stated in your post that you were a civilian,sorry if I misread it.If you can access all Police units in your Force area to see who is available and is near the incident you are attending by looking out of the window then it seems a little remiss of your Force to spend all of that money on computer systems. I think the Defence Minister might like a word to save money on their systems also.
Realpie, I am not nailing anything to my mast.I am the voice of reasoned debate.No more and no less.
Anonetc. Yes you are a civilian and this thread is about employing civilians as air observers. There was never any mention that the civilian should not have had any experience in the same or a similar role in a former life.
It all boils down to picking the best man/woman for the job and if that person is ex Police or Armed Forces then so be it.
As a serious aside there are many ex service personnel being invalided out of the Services on a pittance of a pension and very few prospects of a worthwhile and interesting job who would jump at the chance of being an air observer but at the the end of the day it must be the best person for the job.
Back to reality, I still think that Police Officers are better employed policing.

[therealpieboy]

This is getting a bit like teaching a pig to dance.................achieves nothing but annoys the pig!!

Paarmo, I am a police Officer and I am Policing, every day, but from a helicoper. I catch burglars.........3 up to now tonigh:ok:. Being a Police Officer I use my experience to add value to whatever role I am posted to.

As regards your facile comments to Fortyodd2. When we arrive over a task, we take on the role of Ground Commander, in effect 'Bronze'. Officers on the ground respect our position (800ft AGL) and experience and do what they are told/asked, we have a better overview than anyone at the scene and regularly Inspectors and above will defer to our judgment and expirtise.

As regards a civilian doing my job, YES!! it can be done easily,
1. Take the Police entrance exam and pass it
2. Get through the two year probationary period
3. Keep applying or Air Operations one day you may get it.

There you go civilian to Air Observer in 5 to 20 years. :ok:


Which nicely leads me onto my final point. When a Police Officer attends a basic Air observer course and fails it they are put into another policing role, when you set on a new civilian observer and send them on a course and they fail it you now have a very well paid driver handy person.

If you want to PM me and you are close by I can arrange a visit for you to my unit, perhaps then you will have some of your burning questions answered, we may even let you out again.:eek::eek:

[Fortyodd2]

Dear paarmo,
Looking out of the window of the aircraft - not out of the office. Once we are on scene it is us that feeds the computer, not the other way round. Our office has 8 radios tuned to various nets in the area and by doing so we hear what is going on around us and pick up on what is "bubbling" before we get asked.
I'm glad that you now pick up on the point about experience. The police don't put anyone into any specialist department, dogs, firearms, trafffic, CID, underwater search, etc, until they have completed 2 year probationary term of service and air support is no different. Once past their probationary period in the job, air observers tend to stay a minimum of 3 years but usually longer. Any less does not justify the expense of training them. Our one and only attempt at recruiting a civilian observer resulted in 96 applicants of which only 2 met all the required criteria - but we still had to pay all the expense of sifting and testing them all - which increased the "on cost" to the point where a police officer would have been cheaper. Our HR department would have loved to have picked a "Playstation generation" youth from the job centre and we would have been stuck with a liability - it's not just a case of pointing the camera in the right direction. As for landing on to make an arrest, would you really want said civilian to be in a situation where they find themselves facing some axe wielding nutter? Think it can't happen? Think again - it already has.
Your point about ex forces people, depends on what their disability is. Remember, they still have to be able to get in and out of the aircraft in a hurry where the situation demands it. One of our police observers is ex SAR crew who joined the police after leaving the forces and was, therefore, quite happy in the back of the aircraft and simply had some new kit to learn, being already capable of map reading/navigation etc. As has been previously stated on this thread, it's about what they can bring to the party.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

:ugh:You seem to have things a little out of context. Yes, everyone starts out as a civilian then they join a disciplined organization. That might be police, mil, ambo. Whichever. Opportunity’s are given to them based on experience levels and qualifications. So

Ambo - you don’t start giving drugs or sticking needles in people until you have done the basics, learnt from experience, passed some exams get recommended and show yourself to be competent at the role.

Military - (Pilot) You join at the bottom, get some experience, do some exams get some experience and get recommended for the role that then takes years of training.

Police - You join at the bottom, pound the streets, deal with criminals, get used to how criminals think and what they will do next ( They are all creatures of habit) Get some experience get recommended, do some exams and show that you are competent at the role.

Now the difference with the way police do things is that is they advertise for a police job any one inside the police can apply. So all of the above apply. However if they advertise for a civilian post it goes into the national press. Therefore little jonny with no qualifications who is currently shelf stacking at Tescos ( other retail jobs are available) can apply and if he can pass the entrance exam and talk enough guff for 20 mins could get the job.

Which would you rather work with and put in charge of a police forces most expensive resource.



Personal abuse deleted. There is no need for this stupidity: the next to contribute with abuse will get more than a deletion :=

Senior Pilot

[Regain]

And just when I was wanting to send some too!

Paarmo, I cannot make up my mind whether you actually do believe police officers should all be walking around or whether you are a wind-up merchant.

Anyhoo, seeing as how you like your (less than accurate) research, why not stay online and use the Cambridge dictionary to gain definitions of police officer and soldier. I include soldier as the ex-army flyers amongst us will well remember the cries of "soldier first" which many interpreted as "infantryman first" when in fact there are many branches and forms of soldiering. Likewise policing.

By your argument, you would 'civilianise' everyone in the police who do not make direct arrests day to day. If you really want to know whether it would work and be cost effective, do some more research and talk with units that have tried it.

Going back to an earlier post, also look up ab-initio.

[paarmo]

Dear Regain,
The last definition I saw for a Police Officer went something along these lines...A Constable is a citizen locally appointed whose duties are the prevention and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace . No mention of helicopters and the like. The much denigrated civilian observer seems to me a much better idea as he can commit long term to the position and upgrade continually as technology advances in a seemless manner rather than learning the job from scratch as he is posted in and out of the unit.
Yes I would civilianise all posts who do not use their Police powers on a regular and continual basis. After all why train Police Officers to be Police Officers when they are not Policing on the front line and making a difference for us taxpayers.

[Fortyodd2]

"No mention of helicopters and the like"

No mention of cars either - or firearms, radios, computers, cameras, horses, boats, dogs, aeroplanes, motor cycles, finger printing, DNA, etc. Probably because they are just part of the ever increasing inventory of tools available to the constable in order to assist him/her with the "prevention and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace". We've moved on.

[Fly_For_Fun]

After all why train Police Officers to be Police Officers when they are not Policing on the front line

Paarmo does have a bit of a point. :bored:

[Retro Coupe]

I know this is going over old ground, but I couldn't resist the juicy big worm Paarmo has put on the hook.


A Constable is a citizen locally appointed whose duties are the prevention and detection of crime and the prosecution of offenders against the peace .


Police observers in helicopters do just that.


After all why train Police Officers to be Police Officers when they are not Policing on the front line and making a difference for us taxpayers.


Police observers in helicopters are policing at the front line (albeit several hundred feet above it) and help save tax payers money by searching large areas of ground far quicker than land based patrols can. How much overtime has been saved around the country by the use of helicopters during missing person searches?

[paarmo]

Dear retro,
Eyes are eyes no matter who they belong to when you are searching for a missing person. I seem to recall the Army and even volunteer civilians being used in searches for missing persons in the past.Surely if civilians can do it on the ground then they can do it in a helicopter.

[Fortyodd2]

Paarmo, you are correct - eyes are eyes when looking for a missing person. But that's nowhere near all we do. We need those eyes to be connected to a brain that has stores of experience in all kinds of police work in order to make them effective. Using your argument, why not get civilians to drive the police cars? After all, behind the wheel isn't front line policing is it? The problem comes when they have to step out of the vehicle. Perhaps you should ask the "civilians" at Surrey if their training was sufficient to deal with the larcenous, itinerant, travelling folk who smashed up their aircraft?

[Sulley]

fortyodd are police officers more 'axe proof' than civllians then ?:hmm:

[jayteeto]

Its from a post a while back, but the quote about police being 'originally' trained by civilians is a bit lame. Yes, the first crews were trained by civilians many years ago, but if you apply that logic, who trained the first ever pilots? The wright brothers didn't have a school to go to.
Things have advanced since the early days, we train our own people now. The 'civilian' CAA do check us, but only to make sure that we are operating THE AIRCRAFT safely and within limits. They certainly do not tell us how to handle command and control and the operational kit.
Remember that the civilian/police interpretation is very small. The aircraft carries passengers to incidents, it is operated to Cat A standards to safeguard the passengers. Once it gets there the passengers do their job. Bleating on about engineers and pilots being civilian is a red herring. Who deploys us is a red herring as well. The only important thing is how the observers do the job at scene. A huge amount of jobs we do involve the question coming from ground units: "What offences have you seen committed?". The experienced officers can then relay important information to ground units. To me as a mere 5 year veteran, this suggests that there MUST be at least one qualified cop on the crew. The other alternative would be to train the civilian observer to a suitable standard to recognise offences and be able to understand ground unit requirements.........
Hang on, that means train them as a policeman..... we do that already :D

[Fortyodd2]

Sulley,
Physically no - but more likely to be trained and equipped to deal in the same way that they are when the aircraft lands to make an arrest which is why the crew have access to PPE when in the aircraft. Civilian staff are not trained and are not permitted to use the PPE.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Paarmo

Who do you think taught police observers in the first place whan air support evolved....Answer experienced police officers who transfered their policing skills from the ground to the air......trial, error and experience over the years has meant that skills are enhanced. Working groups set up to share skills....Infact I think you will find that it was police officers that told big companies like eurocopter what they wanted and got them to build and redesign a helicopter around police officers needs. Not the other way round.

So rather than the chicken or the egg argument. Just realise that police officers started it all off and have evolved air support over the years to what they do today.:D

If a civvie observer is to be recruited who do you think will train them..Police officers. Why do you think there are not more of them..because a recent study throught out the whole of the UK revealed that it IS NOT cost effective.

A top whack civvie with all their add ons and travelling, weekend working, shift allowance is around 45k a year.....quite alot more than a bobbie....

It would be interesting to find out what your line of work is and to put the same "can any one else do your job on the cheap" question to you.

[J.A.F.O.]

A top whack civvie with all their add ons and travelling, weekend working, shift allowance is around 45k a year

Yeah, right, course it is, mate.

All those saying that civvies don't train observers have obviously never heard of PAS or the hundreds of observers they trained.

[paarmo]

As I understand it Budgie,the question was can a civilian observer do the job currently done by a Police Officer not is it cheaper or more expensive to employ civilians to do the same job. I very much doubt that a civilian observer could earn that sort of money and if he can then his contract was not drawn up correctly in the first place. The figure you quote £45,000 per year would appear to have been plucked out of thin air and released into the atmosphere as yet another red herring. ( Can herrings fly as well as pigs ?.)
Budgie you probably could get someone to do my job cheaper. I sell clockwork toys for a living and very satisfying it is too.

[jayteeto]

Apologies to PAS, I only meant that the force that employ us train their own observers. PAARMOs last post says he asks if the job CAN be done by a direct entrant civilian...... Yes it can, any job can be done with the correct amount of training. I was a civilian until the RAF spent a fortune training me. Until that person gains experience of what the man on the ground needs, effectiveness is reduced. It makes more sense to recruit someone who has a bunch of experience in the first place. We are arguing just that point.

[Retro Coupe]

I sell clockwork toys for a living and very satisfying it is too.

Paarmo has admitted something I've suspected all along, he is a wind-up merchant. :}

[mickjoebill]

Apologies to PAS, I only meant that the force that employ us train their own observers. PAARMOs last post says he asks if the job CAN be done by a direct entrant civilian...... Yes it can, any job can be done with the correct amount of training. I was a civilian until the RAF spent a fortune training me. Until that person gains experience of what the man on the ground needs, effectiveness is reduced. It makes more sense to recruit someone who has a bunch of experience in the first place. We are arguing just that point.

There are numerous civvies who have many hours operating aerial camera kit, who direct aircraft and ground units who would have no problem with the kit/flying/navigation side of the role.

No doubt that 2 years on the street would teach a young bloke a few things about criminal behavior, but I submit that the life experience of an older applicant wouldn't be too far behind a 20 something with a few years on the beat.


I believe the steepest learning curve for such applicants to be coming to grips with esoteric acronyms and arcane nomenclature..



mickjoebill

[therealpieboy]

I believe the steepest learning curve for such applicants to be coming to grips with esoteric acronyms and arcane nomenclature..

That and the Airwave radio, which most Officer's should know how to use on arrival to the unit.:eek:

PAARMO, Yes your original question was can a civilian do the Police observers job. It looks like the answer is yes. However, I would ask you two questions in response.

Can a Civilian EFFECTIVELY do a Police observers role?

If they both cost the same, why would you employ a civilian when you could have a well qualified Police officer?

Before you start on the cost I get about £35,000 gross PA and I'm on top whack. a scale six support staff member is on around the same money when you add shift allowance and weekend working. Scale six covers people like Police photographers and control room staff. Their level of technical knowledge is about the same as the observers, albeit in a diffrent field.

Unison are not going to allow Police staff air observers to be on much less than scale six. so once again I would ask you,

If they both cost the same, why would you employ a civilian when you could have a well qualified Police officer?

That's it game over:D:D


I also seel cheap clockwork toys if anyone wants one!!!:E

[J.A.F.O.]

therealpieboy

You're still guessing too high for Scale six with allowances but you're much nearer than paarmo.

[Letsby Avenue]

The best thing about this thread is all the ex mil police pilots who read it and would rather keep quiet...:ok:

The difference between a civilian and a police officer is the pension :rolleyes:

[therealpieboy]

Letsby, Don't get him going on the pension thing, He (PAARMO) will convienently forget the 11% contribution we make towards our pension.:confused:

[Letsby Avenue]

Irrespective of who would make the best observer; policeman or civilian - Is the argument simply this, if the selection process were opened up to all, then diversity enters the equation. One would be forced to consider those chaps for whom a helping hand was felt necessary when the role demands a standard of excellence for all. Simply slotting 40 year old housewives or some of our less able ethnic chums into the rota simply to please witless HR types is a major distraction for all with a consequent reduction in efficiency. Once progressed into the second or third 'generation' the ASU will have suffered a massive dilution of expertise and will end up concentrating its efforts on child minding, pregnancy management, and endless 'on the job' training days.

[paarmo]

Pieman how long is the training course to be an air observer? How long does it take to train a Police Officer? Factor in the costs of the training and tell Unison that there is no equivalent job in the Police Service and " we will decide on the pay scale thank you for asking ".
Chief Officers have to account for the time spent by their Police Officers on a regular basis but do not have to do the same for civilian staf. No worries about downtime and inventing tasks to keep the notional time spent on the streets or in this case over the streets up to a reasonable level.
Well qualified Police Officers are in short supply if you believe what was reported by your Union/Federation at their recent conference so why not free another one up to Police and cover the job with a civilian.
As for pensions I belive that any person can pay into a pension and certainly Police Civilians are given the opportunity to do so.
As for 11% contributions do not bleat about it because the maximum that you could be made to pay is 15% and if the economy continues as it is then the call for 15% by Police Authorities may come sooner than you think.
As for your earlier post about employing a person and then he fails basic air observer training. I think your grasp as to what happens in the real word of employment is a little lacking. You fail you're out.
Another post from J2O suggests that he can see identify offences being committed from the air. Possibly driving offences but very little else. As I understand it the CPS ( a civilian operation ) actually tells you what to charge people with as Police have made so many mistakes in charging incorrectly in the past.
Budgie. Who did this meticulous study on civilian versus Police costs and what was their motivation for the study.
Get yourselves some real concrete evidence to support your jobs because the civies are coming boys.
PS looking at your address Letsby it would appear that you fall into the ethnic catergory.As for your other views I take it that Welsh Forces have not yet joined the 20th century yet let alone the 21st.

[Aerodynamik]

I think your grasp as to what happens in the real word of employment is a little lacking

Paarmo, as is yours when it comes to police air support, you have made that very clear.

[paarmo]

Is That It?

[bjcc]

Paarmo

Having been on the recieving end of Police Observers experience, I'd rather it was a man of the cloth I was talking too.

Firstly, as has been said many times by Police Observers on here, because they talk and think the same way. They have the experience I had, and knew what I could and couldn't do. When it came to car chases, again, they knew how I was going to drive, they were trained the same way, therefore knew what I would and would not do.

There has to be trust between the 2 ends of the equation, because the bionic budgie jockey had done my job, I trusted him. Would I feel the same way about a civvie? No.

Civvies, yes, ok, some good, most avarage and some awful. Take Civvie Comms officers for example. I've thrown more than one out of a the Divisional Control Room I was supervising, for being useless, only to have some idiot further up the food chain put him back. Fortunatly, the majority of Communications staff in the large Force I worked in were Police Officers who rotated in and out of Comms duties. That mix of experience, of being on both ends made for better comms officers.

Leaving efficency aside, a civvie can do one job, and one only. If he/she is employed as a comms officer, thats it, if the front office Civvie goes sick, you can't redeploy, you can't get them to do both jobs. A Police Officer can and at my stations often did.

Last point against them is, and I can only speak for the Met, but our civvies pension was non contrabutory. So that has to be added to the cost, along with additional pay for weekends, nights etc, again not something you pay a police officer.

So in terms of flexability, experience and cost, there is no good reason to employ a civvie. The only argument in favour of it is to put more police on the streets, but as the numbers released would be a drop in the ocean, thats really not a good argument, when compared against the loss it would entail.

[MightyGem]

Letsby, did you get my PM re pension???

[paarmo]

BJCC have you never worked with a useless Police Officer? Have you ever tried to get rid of one? Unless he commits a criminal offence then as I understand it there are two chances of getting rid of him, fat and no.
These useless civilians who you ejected from the control room. Did you actually do anything constructive about them apart from throwing a strop and chucking them out? Did you give them extra training or support? Did you bring their failings to their notice? Did you record their failings and how you tried to retrain and support them?
No you did what all Police Officers tend to do, according to this post anyway, call them useless and try and move them along.
Things have changed in the world since Ashes to Ashes and it would appear that it has passed some of you by.

[jayteeto]

Its easier to get someone promoted than get rid of them. Works every time!!

[therealpieboy]

No you did what all Police Officers tend to do, according to this post anyway

At last it looks like PAARMO has shown his true colours, I have no doubt that at some stage PAARMO has had a bad experience of the Police or even Police Air operations. His continued reluctance to nail is colours to the mast is telling.

I still havn't had a PM about a visit to the unit and s/he is not that far away from me!!:ugh:

Come on PAARMO tell us your real beef?

[MAN777]

So which UK forces have (or planning to have) Civvie Observers ?

[paarmo]

Dear Pie person.
I have no axe to grind and no ulterior motive for my comments. The British Police Service is the only single tier and in all but name only national police service in the Western World. To single out Spain as an example they have three tiers of police. The Guarda Civil deal with remote areas , street crime , speeding on motorways , riots and border patrols. All Guarda helicopters(and boats) are flown by Guarda Officers with Guarda Observers.The National Police deal with cross border offences and also VIP and royal protection and the Policia Locale deal with other offences not dealt with by the others. A complete mess to the outsider and is it any wonder that the alleged crime rate in Spain is claimed to be much less than that in England and Wales. Nobody seems to check any of the figures which are produced.
The Guards are are para military organisation and live in barracks in the main.
Compare that with Britain at the moment. Local Authorities are setting up their own local pseudo police and the Police themselves have employed what can only be described as Fred Karnos Army to patrol the streets. Why? Because Police Officers are very expensive and take a long time to produce.
Core policing can only be done by Police Officers and the only way to do it is to free up all Police Officers possible to do it and sub contract other duties to civilians.
If you don't like that scenario would you fancy being a Guard in Spain and live in barracks under strict para military discipline.

[Coconutty]

Paarmo - congratulations - you certainly have the knack of stirring up some lively comments, but I do have to take exception to your comment :

[Core policing can only be done by Police Officers and the only way to do it is to free up all Police Officers possible to do it and sub contract other duties to civilians.Really ? - That is the law according to who ? - You ?

The ONLY way ? - Naaah - If more "proper" Police Officers were employed, i.e the establishment were increased, then that would do the trick too - surely ?
( ignoring the argument that Police Air Obsevers ARE involved in Core Policing - from the air ).

You do seem to be getting a little emotive, and on the face of it appear to have some sort of an axe to grind against warranted Police Officers employed as Police Air Support Unit Observers. It is of course your right to have such an opinion, but it seems that those "in the know" disagree with you, and that no matter what is discussed here, you will not be disuaded from your opinion.

I would agree that there are various roles performed by Police Officers that should be examined to determine if they could be performed by a civillian, freeing up that Police Officer to patrol the streets, ( in fact this question is often considered - particularly in light of financial cutbacks ).

The real difficulty is in determining exactly which roles these are, and it seems that the role of Police Observer has been considered by the vast majority of Police forces and REJECTED.

In this day and age of accountability you can bet your bottom dollar that it is not just the employment costs that have been looked at in reaching this conclusion, but the effectiveness of the service provided too.

Most Air Support Units operate with 10 to 12 Police Officer observers, depending on size of force, operating hours etc, and releasing those Officers to patrol the streets will only have a minimal effect, on what you describe as "Core Policing".
This needs to be balanced against the cost of recruiting, training and equipping new civillian staff, plus any possible ( but not guaranteed ) savings in salary, and also taking into account the potential for reduction in quality of service, loss of experience, and loss of confidence in the service provided etc.

It is easy to say "Civilianise the role of Police Observer", and I am convinced that if doing so would prove to be cost effective AND would have no detrimental effect on the service provided, then more Police forces would have done so by now, and those that have, would not have regretted that decision, and be looking at returning to employment of only warranted Police Officer Observers at the earliest oportunity.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[paarmo]

Dear Luverly Bunch,
I say that this is the only way to find core policing numbers. Face facts. There are no more establishments for Police Forces. You are not going to get any more money even in the medium to long term and in fact in real terms your money will fall so the chances of employing any more Police Officers are remote.In the future real Police Officers are going to be as rare as rocking horse s***.
It follows therefore that every possible way to redeploy Police Officers will be sought which includes observers and who knows there may even be civilian Chief Constables.

[ShyTorque]

Speaking as an ex member of HM Forces, surely every police officer already is a civilian.

[paarmo]

We've already been there shytork. No body liked being called a civilian even an exmil pilot who still considers himself as non civie.

[ShyTorque]

I'm an ex ASU Chief pilot and was definitely an ex-mil civvie back then.

It's ShyTorque, by the way - and get yer air cut! :E

[paarmo]

Nature has cut my head hair. The only hair I cut now is orifice hair.

[Whirlygig]

Way too much detail there :yuk:

Cheers

Whirls

[J.A.F.O.]

Coconutty

more Police forces would have done so by now, and those that have, would not have regretted that decision, and be looking at returning to employment of only warranted Police Officer Observers at the earliest oportunity

Who's doing that, then?

PS - 10 to 12 officers? I think not in many, many cases.

[Fortyodd2]

"who knows there may even be civilian Chief Constables."

Already happened.

Civilian is made chief of nuclear police force - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1610486.ece)

Civilian is made chief of nuclear police force

Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent


A senior MI6 officer has become the first civilian chief constable in Britain for more than 50 years and will head the armed force that guards nuclear power stations.

The decison to choose Richard Thompson, who was a station chief in Baghdad and worked in Kosovo, to head the 700-strong Civil Nuclear Constabulary will cause concern among police officers.

The post for a director of policing was advertised, and the Government has also been discussing introducing civilians who have management expertise or specialist skills into at least the middle ranks of the police. Mr Thompson, 46, who will earn more than £100,000, is described by the constabulary as a senior diplomat at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

In a statement it said that he “has extensive experience of defence and security matters, working closely with chief police officers, government and international agencies, both in the UK and overseas”.

Fraser Sampson, the executive director of the police authority for the constabulary, said that it was different from other forces because of its role. He said: “While it works closely with Home Office and Scottish forces to all relevent policing standards, the discrete and dedicated nature of its duties means that the CNC’s arrangements necessarily differ from those of mainstream policing services.”

The last civilian head of a police force was Sir Harold Simpson, a civil servant, who was made Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in 1946

Though you will note he did have some previous and relevant experience to draw upon......... which brings us back to the "having something to bring to the party" point.

[The Nr Fairy]

Apparently that new Chief Constable had glowing references :}

[Fortyodd2]

If he keeps hanging around Nuclear Establishments it won't only be his references that glow!! :E

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

You may need to cut it cause you sure as hell have spent enough time talking out of it judging by the ill informed comments you have been coming out with. I recall previously you being invited to see what an air support unit does Take the chance...Stop watching skycops and get some realtime information. :ok:

[paarmo]

Dear Budg
I don't think my opinions are ill judged and neither do the civilian observers on this post. Civilian observers are the way forward and you must get used to this idea.
I remember many years ago going into the Police Station with found property and the found property officer was a Police Officer.You probably don't remember those times but times change and I'm afraid so must you.
I'm afraid the staff won't allow me to do a personal visit to your unit but thank you for the offer.

[zorab64]

Anyone reading this thread would be forgiven for thinking that there are some very entrenched views which could be considered variously as insular, protectionist and possibly slightly blinkered? I can't say I agree totally with Paarmo but, whatever his real job, some of the points have an astute validity.

I've put my cards on the table before in agreeing that there has to be merit in at least considering civvie Police Observers - so long as the cost benefit is calculated accurately. It's not only about cost, of course, but it's often a driving force - if there's no real benefit, there seems no point in going down the route. I'd agree with others that complete civilianisation could damage credibility, but one or two (MAN777 - Suffolk have two & I believe Surrey have one or two?) can inject a different (and often refreshing) perspective into a unit.
Realpieboy (#123 22nd May) is unsure whether a civvie can EFFECTIVELY operate in the police role? I reckon the right one can manage at least 98% - the only sticking point being their powers of arrest . . . but as we tend to note the "Air" bit of our title, the occasions are spectacularly few & far between - as soon as we're on the ground, we've lost the aerial advantage.

Letsby may feel that diversity will force politically correct incompetants onto a unit but I'd suggest a robust selection procedure is put in place . . . we've had one working well for some years since, previously, getting rid of Police Obs who couldn't actually cut the mustard took far too long! That's not to say that a civvie would be easy to get rid of, but at least it could be written into a contract that they would be obliged to maintain a certain standard. That's in theory, of course - as soon as they saw the "competence" level of their compatriots, they probably wouldn't find it too difficult to remain in post!

Personally, Police experience on the ground notwithstanding, I'd rather see a competent equipment operator who can maximise the complexities of the kit, is able to think fast, communicate succinctly and manage the highly technical role of the aerial tactician than a Bobby with 10 years on the street who stumbles over the myriad of multi-tasking because his brain just can't keep up with the aircraft. It's not rocket science but there's actually more science in the kit & the role than most experienced PCs will have utilised in a whole career! ;)

It's really not about "Police" experience, it's about balance & using the right person for the job because they are better at doing it, in order to provide the best service to the team on the ground, the force and the public we serve.

I was told once that some good Policeman know how a crooked mind works because they may hail from just the other side of the fence - currently it would appear that UK Police have to be more akin to Parliamentarians than the common burglar!!:eek:

[Aerodynamik]

It's really not about "Police" experience

Yes it is. As I have said before, the pilot of an Apache is far more effective as he is a soldier first. If experience counts for nothing lets privatise the RAF Tristars, Hercules, BAe146s, C17s etc as there is no reason that they need to be flown by military aircrew,is there? Change is not ALWAYS better. In fact, in my experience, most change seems to be made by people entering an organisation with big ideas and absolutely no idea of the core role. It normally impacts on staff moral, costs a fortune and lasts until that person is promoted or moves on, then reverts to the tried and tested position that it was at originally.

[zorab64]

Aerodynamik - a glance at your profile doesn't say much but indicates that you may not have all the facts at your disposal. I would opine that your argument is also getting a little trite in opposing "change" per-se. Everything "changes" and most people (not all, I'd agree) try to change things for the better. To resist change because you think you've already got the best system and are too blinkered to try something new will have you branded a Luddite. Anyway, it's not change to consider Civvie Observers as there are already a number in circulation - the main reason that there aren't more is probably due to the limited financial benefits. All the pilots are civvies, a number are not ex-military, but in that area direct employment has been welcomed by many forces due to the significant savings.

Having done this job for more than a decade, worked with both good & bad Police Obs, and a few good civvies, I'd refer you to my earlier post - we're here to provide the best service to the team on the ground, maximising the use of the plethora of highly technical equipment and ensuring the most efficient use of the taxpayer's pound. If that means a more able civvie wins out over a less able copper, I'm all for it. It's teamwork in the air anyway and the guy on the ground doesn't care (or know, more often) who's in the air if he gets good support & also gets his man! That said, and as previously mentioned, any civilianisation should remain limited to one or two per unit, in my opinion.

There are some capable Policemen who can be trained to become capable Police Air Observers. There are also some very capable non-Policemen who have already been trained (without extra hours etc) to become very completent Observers. Those who insist that the ONLY person able to be considered, for Police Air Observer training, is an experienced officer are deluding themselves into believing that they're better than they think they are - or are a little too keen to protect "jobs for the boys"?:=

For he, read she, etc.

[paarmo]

Aeroperson
I think you will find that many of the flights for Transport Command are now contracted to civilian airlines. RAF crews are used when using hot air space and airfields.Not only do the civilian contractors use civilian pilots but they also have real life cabin crew.
I know it's a problem for you but civilians are permeating into all aspects of Service and Police operations apart from fighting and frontline core policing. Thank your lucky stars there are no takers from the private security industry to take over core policing.Not as yet anyway.

[[email protected]]

paarmo - I presume you are talking about the Falklands air bridge - the only reason we use civilian companies is because of the woeful lack of investment in the AT force and the fact they are stretched providing troop transports into the conflicts we find ourselves in. It is not done because of value for money or efficiency - it is just because we can't do it ourselves due to lack of resources.

Back to policemen in helicopters - on a job I did on Sunday rescuing 3 men from a crashed/sinking speedboat, the police heli was top cover and asked if we could keep hold of one of the men as they wanted to talk to him. We landed on the top of a headland closely followed by the police heli and the uniformed police observer was able to do what policemen do best - detect crime with the ability to detain if required. This would not have been possible with a civilian observer and would have required a ground policeman to be diverted from other duties to carry out the interview/arrest.

In rural areas I think it is vital to retain that police capability in the helicopter - they don't always work with ground units and having to wait for them to catch up could lead to losing the arrest completely.

Zorba - change is not always good and is often instigated for change's sake and not because there is a better alternative. The world is full of ambitious middle management who think their new initiative is better than the last blokes new initiative. Unfortunately there are those who cannot see that a task has been performed a certain way for many years for good reasons and insist on going through the painful process of reinventing the wheel. There is nothing Luddite about trying to save people from their own ambitions and trying to prevent real capability being lost for the sake of a few quid.

[J.A.F.O.]

Many people seem to be ignoring one of the main points of Zorab's post, that is that there are civilian air observers so the constant debate on whether it would be possible to train a non-police officer to be an effective air observer is really null and void as it has been done. It's like debating whether we should invent the motor car to replace the horse and carriage - it's already been done.

There are many points worthy of debate - selection, training, benefits, costs, the extent of civilianisation etc but you cannot debate whether civilians can be observers because they already are.

There are police officers who make bad observers and non-police officers who make good observers, sorry but that's the way it is.

I echo all that Zorab has said and, if he is who I think he is, he would know.

[zorab64]

Thank you J.A.F.O. - at least some people read the content!

I don't like getting into arguments with Crabs (beneath my dignity) but I do have significant experience with both useless (and good) Police Obs, and with very capable civvies.

Please read my previous posts again and be reminded (again) that my view is that the smattering of civvie Obs that is already in place is not necessarily a bad thing for a unit and could be considered by others. Two civvies seldom, if ever, get crewed together and, given the frequency of actually laying hands on a criminal, there's invariably a "proper" policeman in every crew anyway.

Please feel free to read the handle without dyslexia - I'm neither related to, nor associated with, any Greeks!:=

[paarmo]

Dear Zorba
I am no good at acronyms ( Is that right? ) In fact I am useless at Countdown and the anagrams. What is a CRAB?

[sunnywa]

Hello All,

As a ex-mil civvie (and happily so) pilot who flies for a Police Air outfit, I concur completely with Zorba in his points. For someone to say that civvies are unable to carry out the role of Air Observer, I would say they are mistaken in that it all depends on the individual operator.
Some coppers are good, some are not and struggle through. Same with civvies. The way I see it, it boils down to a few clear points:

What is the cost/benefit of it? If it saves no money, then why worry about it.
Can the Air Wing get recruits from the groundpounders. I know in some places there has been a freeze on Police due to funding, but this somehow does not include public servants, so you might be able to fill vacancies this way.
If you need to have the powers of arrest, then case closed, police only. If the powers are needed rarely, then this might not be an issue.
Training - a rigorous selection process will weed out poor recruits and if they don't make the training curve, get rid of them. Which is easier to get rid of? I'm not sure but in Oz, coppers can be removed tout suite from the unit to places like Warakirna (its not nowhere, but you can see it from there).Most people could become a good Air Operators with the right training. My son would make a great sensor operator as his fingers whizz around the XBox console when I'm going ???????? does this button do.

I'm sure some uniformed members will disagree and guard their patch, but at least the potential for civvy AO's should be explored as an option for those who do not already have them.
:)

[Aerodynamik]

I would be the first to agree that anybody can be trained to work the cameras etc, its not hard. And as has just been mentioned most teenagers would probably be better at it than a crusty old police officer. However, at the risk of repeating myself, it is the experience that the observer brings along that counts. Lets face it, a 500 hr PPL could do a perfectly adequate job of flying the helicopter safely (ANO permitting). But an ATPL pilot with 1500hrs+ and possibly ex-mil can bring a lot more to the party, can't he?

[J.A.F.O.]

Aerodynamik

However, at the risk of repeating myself, it is the experience that the observer brings along that counts.

You are repeating yourself and quite needlessly, we've already established that:

a) Civvies bring different skills and experience
b) Some (by far the minority) very experienced officers do not make good air observers

To be honest I don't think that civvies recruited directly is a great idea, some relevant experience in a policing role is vital.

And, believe me, a 500hr PPL could not do a perfectly good job they would spend most of their time concentrating on the fact that their brains were screaming in abject terror and trying to find a way out of their heads - especially at night and/or in poor wx.

Zorab

Dear Zorba
I concur completely with Zorba

They're clearly just doing it to wind you up, now.

[The Hustler]

As another outsider looking in, I would be worried about a 'civvie' observer without several years of experience dealing with people in dark and potentially dangerous council estates (for example) sending ground officers in directions that may endanger them just to try and resolve the issue on the ground (possibly because this could be the thin end of the wedge, and they'll start giving the Obs targets to reach to justify the spend on the AC)

Also, paarmo is living in the past a little bitAs for 11% contributions do not bleat about it because the maximum that you could be made to pay is 15% and if the economy continues as it is then the call for 15% by Police Authorities may come sooner than you think.
The 15% limit was lifted in (I think) 2007 and you can now contribute 100% of your salary.

Obviously you could only do this if you were working as a hobby (or had a military pension :p )

[MightyGem]

Paarmo wrote:
What is a CRAB?
Crab is a jocular and friendly term that the Army and Royal Navy use when referring to the members of the junior service, ie the RAF. [email protected] is a member of said junior service.

They in return, keeping up the spirit of inter-sevice rivaly, refer to us as Pongoes and Fishheads respectively. :ok:

Edit: that "invalid hash" should read "crab at SSAvn.co.uk". :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

They in return, keeping up the spirit of inter-sevice rivaly, refer to us as Pongoes and Fishheads respectively.

If yer lucky...:E

[iainms]

So whats a REMF then ?:}

[[email protected]]

Er...the type of person who thinks civilianisation of uniformed jobs is a good
idea?:)









Abzorba69 - sorry I got your handle wrong:E

[zorab64]

The term "Crab" arose out of the fact that during WW II, service personnel were issued with a blue fatty paste to smear on those regions affected by an attack of "crabs" - for those unaware of the disease, it's easier to post a link - Crabs Sexually Transmitted Disease (http://www.remedies-for-natural-health.com/crabs.html)

The (RAF uniform!) blue paste was known as "Crab fat", as described in the contents of a POW First Aid Kit 4 x Blue Ointment (1 Ounce Tube) > An ointment for destroying “crab” lice; also effective in certain skin diseases. (also designated Mild Mercurial Ointment).
The term Crab Fat Blue was coined by the other services, common parlance reducing the whole service to "Crabs". Subsequent phases such as "Fly Navy, Sail Army, Walk Sideways" have sprung from the epithet!:ok:

Canvas Bra @ - your dyslexic/anagramatic apology accepted!

[John Eacott]

zorab64,

WWII? I believe that the term dates back to the First World War, when the RAF was formed 1st April 1918 and issued their uniform the colour of crab-fat grey. The term was already in use from c.1910 to describe the grey paint used on warships in the Royal Navy, but as you state, it derives from the colour of the ointment used by the RN for genital lice :yuk:

Sometimes we accumulate all sorts of useful information ;)

[zorab64]

Thank you John - I have no reason to doubt the earlier time-line (than I had been led to believe) and will be pleased to update my databank of crab-facts as a result!:ok:

[paarmo]

I wish I'd never asked now. I only thought it meant civilians are really brave or something similar.
Hustler you misread the post on pension contributions I think. I meant that 15% is what the Government can force you to pay not the total overall contributions you can put into the scheme. It does not conform to any other system for various reasons mainly the age at which the pension is payable and various family benefits.

[The Hustler]

The Government can FORCE me to pay 15% of my salary? My god is there no end to their meddling in our lives? And to think I only pay 7.5% of my salary . . .

[What Limits]

The magical figure of 15% could refer to the maximum allowed by HM Revenue and Customs (boo hiss) that you may contribute into a pension plan.

I was led to believe that the crab ointment was the same colour and consistency as the Light Blue Blanco Polish that the RAF used occasionally on their Webbing Equipment.

Funny old thing, Once I asked the assembled throng of crabs and WAFUs (fish-heads) Sirs, why don't you polish your Flying Boots? Answer in chorus - Because boot polish is flammable!

REMF = Rear Echelon MoFo = derogatory term for someone in a military unit who is deployed but never faces the enemy, also could be a member of a unit that doesn't deploy.

I also learnt from wikipedia that Pongo is the genus for Orang-Utans. Thats probably where it came from!

[zorab64]

What Limits - I also learnt from wikipedia that Pongo is the genus for Orang-Utans. Thats probably where it came from!I was always led to believe that "Pongos" resulted from the Army going to war in grubby fox-holes etc & not getting adequate opportunity to wash. No specific criticism implied, just a statement of fact that "everywhere the Army goes, the pong goes"!

Readers should also be aware that the term "fish-head" is used by the Naval Aviator for non-flying, specifically ship-driving, officers of the Navy, whereas the jocular term for the aviators by fish-heads is WAFU, as in "Wet & F***ing Useless"! WAFUs never like being referred to as Fish-heads, as an invitation to the bridge of a ship was often a pre-cursor to an unwanted interview with the Captain - WAFUs prefer the safety of their flight deck, normally out of bounds to anyone (especially fish-heads) not connected with their confusing, complicated, noisy and dangerous business of flying . . . and sunbathing!! :ok:

With apologies for digressing from the thread.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

One only has to read posts on other threads by Paarmo to realise he is ignorant of many things, in fact I believe may be a "security operative" at Teeside. I find the ignore button a wonderful invention. It keeps trolls out of your life far better than any Harry Potter style spell.

Sir Niall

[paarmo]

Aeroman. I am not looking for respect, just expressing a point of view.
Demented. If I am ignorant then please tell me where I have gone wrong. Is it the equipment on the aircraft or the fact that the Police are the service of last resort and are the only ones willing and able to go into dark and dangerous places. If we can't count on the Police to do this who are we gonna call? Ghostbusters?.
By the way stick to observing from the air because you will never make a Detective.Assume nothing and you will always be right.
Police on the ground as a service of last resort and civilians assisting in the air. A natural fit.

[Coconutty]

Getting back to the original post - looks like things are getting pretty hot there ready for the new guy ! :eek:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/376899-another-attack-police-helicopter.html

[Droopy]

I hear that one force has decided to deploy its observers on the streets if the aircraft is down for more than three hours. The pilot is left to man the phones and in the event of the UEO being absent he is expected to make a decision on calling in mutual aid :hmm:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Droopy,

Civilian Obs at some bases, civilian pilots and civilian pilots acting as DUEO's (I do believe that Cambridgeshire had a civilian UEO for quite some years).

This all seems to me to strengthen paarmo's argument for getting the bobbies out on the street and totally civilianising air support.

[zorab64]

Fly for Fun - you have the right end of the stick . . . so long as one realises that:

1. a smattering of civvie Obs (rather than complete civilianisation) is a good compromise, and

2. civvie pilots are invariably ex-military and, as a result, have had plenty of experience in dealing with significantly more difficult decisions than those required in a Police environment, whether it's the flying part or the DUEO substitute.

Cambridgeshire did have a civvie UEO for a few years - but he was the retired original Policeman UEO, until blots appeared on the copy-book! I believe they then employed another civvie (retired police plank pilot?) for a short while while they "analysed his skills"! My understanding is that this resulted in Cambs taking shelter under the Essex PAOC umbrella, who still have a proper Police UEO! :ok:

I'm afraid I can't agree with paarmo on the total civilianisation, however, as previously mentioned.

[Droopy]

civvie pilots are invariably ex-military

Errr.... no.

[SilsoeSid]

civvie pilots are invariably ex-military

I'll wager that there are more 'civvi' pilots out there than ex-mil types!

If you are narrowing it right down to the police aviation world, speaking from where I am we have a 50/50 police line pilot split.

[What Limits]

50/50 police line pilot split

Is that another term for Transgender?

[SilsoeSid]

Lol.

Given the clear line of discussion here, something you need to tell us WL?

[zorab64]

Just to clarify - I am of the belief that, in the UK, the majority of Police pilots are ex-military, albeit that they are regarded as "civvie". Certainly of the 25+ in this region, I only know of 2 or 3 with a non-military background.

[SilsoeSid]

Not to dwell on actual numbers Zorab; Given that, lets say 'most' Police pilots are ex-military, how can we take advantage of that, given the incident at West Mids? ;)

[rotors59]

I hear that one force has decided to deploy its observers on the streets if the aircraft is down for more than three hours. The pilot is left to man the phones and in the event of the UEO being absent he is expected to make a decision on calling in mutual aid


Droopy

Good to hear you keep your ear to the ground - just the sort of thing to tempt you back!! :E I,m also sure you know that not all 'civvie pilots' are ex-mil ;) AND all ex-mil pilots are civvies!!

Make a decision!! now that would be a novelty!!

[zorab64]

SS Given that, lets say 'most' Police pilots are ex-military, how can we take advantage of that, given the incident at West Mids?
Following on from your comments in the W Mids thread, but keeping on track re the civvie discussion here, I very much align myself with most of your comments both here & there, and share your concerns at those who are pleased to carp after the horse has bolted. However, I'm not sure any Police Force (who won't arm more than their own Firearms Officers with Taser), would contemplate any form of weapon in the hands of ex-military pilots, for the purpose of defending their aircraft, whether they're directly emloyed civvies or not!

Notwithstanding that, I know that some would jump at the chance to fit auto-fire gatling guns to the rooftops before you could say "knife" - that's those who have no idea what all this hindsight-security costs the taxpayer, of course! :eek:

[volrider]

Parmaannn whoever you are, having read through this thread I have decided your weird and I am amazed folk have had superb patience listening to you, congrats on your 15 minutes of fame:D

[MightyGem]

I am of the belief that, in the UK, the majority of Police pilots are ex-military, albeit that they are regarded as "civvie".

As of last summer, full time Police helicopter pilots were made up as follows:

Ex Military: 97. Civilian(ie not Ex Mil) 22, of which I think 2 were ladies.

The ex Mil were split as follows: Army 56, RAF 11, RN 19, Royal Marine 11.

The numbers only include those employed fulltime at units, and not floaters/relieve pilots.

[Brilliant Stuff]

To my knowledge it's only one lady now.

[SilsoeSid]

According to What Limits earlier, we may be back up to 2 shortly ;)

[Heli-phile]

Quite illuminating to read your post.
Do the police not see themselves as civilians, if not civilians then what??

[Olde Devonian]

MightyGem

Ex Military: 97. Civilian(ie not Ex Mil) 22, of which I think 2 were ladies.

The ex Mil were split as follows: Army 56, RAF 11, RN 19, Royal Marine 11.

Hands, Time, Too Much!!:}

[MightyGem]

Hands, Time, Too Much!!
Not really. I do it every couple of years just to keep track of those that I know. And for occasions like this.

[Brilliant Stuff]

SS the more the merrier.

[ShyTorque]

Is that another term for Transgender?

Why the interest - are you looking for a tranny vocation? :p

[aeromys]

thought the police were civilian any way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quite illuminating to read your post.
Do the police not see themselves as civilians, if not civilians then what??

No. Although it's just a play on words really. They are not considered "Civilians", they are "Crown Servants" (or Public Servants if you like). They are "Citizens" though.

From the Oxford English Dictionary -

civilian
• noun - a person not in the armed services or the police force.
• adjective - relating to a civilian.
— ORIGIN Old French civilien, in the phrase droit civilien ‘civil law’

[What Limits]

Why the interest - are you looking for a tranny vocation?

I guess as a transgender, ex-military civilian, Captain Doctor, with a disability and native ancestry, they would have to promote me straight to Chief Constable.

[ShyTorque]

OK, you're in! :ok:

[paarmo]

Volrider. Weird? Me? I think you should look closer to home. Some of the contributors to this Post may have to own up to that.
As to 15 minutes of fame. I think that 15 minutes is not nearly enough in this multi layered media age.
I see that you have nothing to bring to the debate apart from the age old, "I don't agree with you therefore I will ignore you" Syndrome. It's a pity really because the people who want to retain Spanish Practices on this post need allies , not snipers.

[aeromys]

Don't feed the troll

[paarmo]

I take it that that last comment was made to me. It is a pity that since you have lost the argument you could not have been graceful in defeat.

[Coconutty]

New Observer qualification requirements :

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/GCSESpanish.jpg

New Observer Selection Procedure :
( Training Officer on the right ;) )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Spanishdancing.jpg

New Air Support Unit equipment :

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Troll_spray.jpg


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[paarmo]

Coconutty
Pushing the barriers of comedy but this does not answer the question. Is it an option to employ civilians in an air observer role? I think the consensus is that it is an achievable option.

[huntnhound]

I think the consensus is that it is an achievable option.

It is an achievable option........but not for you mate because you obviously werent good enough:ooh:

Hnh

[Coconutty]

I think the consensus is that it is an achievable option.

Having read previous posts I am really not interested in what you think :bored:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[timex]

Sorry nearly fed the troll...........

[Coconutty]

Topic seems to have degenerated a little into troll bashing, so to get things back on track....

It seems that whilst it is POSSIBLE to civilianise the Police Air Observer role, most Units don't, generally because they believe the role should be carried out by a Police Officer.

Looking at Selection Procedures though - in general, how do you select the "right person" ( whether Police or Civillian - but particularly Civillian ) for the job ?

Selection can be a very expensive process, and if someone is selected that subsequently fails the course, doesn't fit in, decides to leave etc, then that could well be money wasted.

It is easy enough to conduct a series of tests aimed at examining such things as Spatial Awareness, Multi-Tasking, Hand-eye co-ordination, Mental Agility, Attention to Detail, Physical Fitness etc, with the addition of written knowledge tests, flight tests and so on, which will all examine the key skills needed to to do the job, but how do you determine someone's CHARACTER and ATTITUDE which are both just as important ?

( Consider one of the recent posters to this topic as an example :rolleyes: )

We've all probably seen examples of those with glowing CV's written by their supervisors who merely want to get rid of them, so how do you actually weed out the applicants that would not fit in with the small "crew" environment ?

You know - the ones that would get your back up after working with them for just a few hours :*, who have difficulty accepting their errors and weaknesses to the extent that issues cannot be resolved, and who would not fully embrace the world of CRM :8 ??

Do any Air Support Units conduct any sort of psychometric testing, or character trait examination prior to being offered the job, other than "asking around" to see if anyone knows them, and can give an honest opinion about them ?

Are such tests actually available to the Police for this purpose ?

I know of at least one such applicant that passed all of his written and practical tests with flying colours, but was the last person any of the existing staff would have wanted to work with.

Fortunately he failed his final interview !

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Fortunately he failed his final interview !

That would explain his posts then.....ey paarmo :=

[volrider]

Good point Coconut, but I fear the Troll is already bashing his reply out now we have fed him:eek:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/volrider/internet_troll.jpg

I wonder if this will get moderated like my last one;)

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Civilianisation of police posts is beancounter-driven. There are other aspects of police aviation which probably looked good to the financiers at the time, but showed the ability to turn around and bite yer in the bum just when you least expected it:

article about "speeding cop" (oops - civvy) (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/homepage/Speeding-cop-gets-job/article-1138244-detail/article.html)

I particularly noted the following quote:

"A spokesman for the WCAOU said: "As there are no safety concerns (my italics), we can confirm Mr Kingston has returned to work as a fully operational member of the WCAOU."

You might think it appropriate to comment - I couldn't possibly. I do wonder, though, just how much extra it has cost the council-tax-payers of the area to cover the expense of maintaining police air cover during this whole sorry episode - freelance pilots, selecting and training new observers, refresher-training the convicted dangerous driver...

[volrider]

Thud, the crazy thing is if he had beena Police Officer he would have been sacked and not reinstated, its obvious reading between the lines (and not deeply) that a few observers have issues with this man probably more, but three were brave enough to not want to work with him again. I wonder how many cups of tea the troops make him..........

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Yeah, and if you were him would you drink any of them?

[volrider]

No.... But I would never do such a thing as I hold all you pilots on the same level as God and will always make the tea and make nice cakes for your pleasure:}

[Coconutty]

A spokesman for the WCAOU said: "As there are no safety concerns, we can confirm Mr Kingston has returned to work as a fully operational member of the WCAOU

Interesting - the guy who CHOSE to ignore the law - ( OK on this occasion it was Road Traffic Law ), has been re-instated as "there are no safety concerns".

It is a very brave statement for the WCAOU spokesman to have made - he must have confidence that the pilot won't go on to choose a piece of aviation law to ignore in the future :hmm:

It seems that the 3 observers who have voluntarily transferred off the Unit ( and I bet that doesn't happen very often across the Country ), don't share the same confidence :rolleyes:

Sort of goes back to my previous question about checking someone's character before employing them - how exactly do you do that :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[What Limits]

You could ask around.......this industry is very small and a lot of people have long memories.............

[paarmo]

I don't see where this is heading. Are you saying that instead of employing civilians as pilots you should be training Police Officers? Then he would have been sacked instead of being reinstated? I know of Police Officers who have been convicted of drink driving who are still fulfilling a role in the Police.As your Federation is keen to highlight at any disciplinary hearings each case must be judged on it's own merit.
This is another red herring.
If you read the news report it outlines the training and checking procedures for observers and instead of returning to normal Police duties a civilian as part of his contract would have his services dispensed with.

[volrider]

Paarmo is the water in teeside safe to drink?? I think it is muddling your brain power.. you obviously do not read threads before jumping in with both feet and making a complete c0ck of yourself...
Tell you what when a civvie pcso type of role pops up why dont you apply and moan within the police force rather than moan from the outside, who knows you may even get some real insight to life rather than being boring and sad hidden behind your keyboard...the sun shines sometimes, I suggets you get out there and warm those scales up a bit.
By the way PCSO and Police do get on unlike this funny representation.

YouTube - Police Officer vs Community Support Officer - Mitchell & Webb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixTS7QdkFbs)

[paarmo]

You intimated that if a Police Officer had been convicted of the offence then he would have been sacked. The Pilot was not a Police Officer so the natural progression of that argument is to make all Pilots Police Officers and have the ability to sack them should you personally not agree with their personal life standards.I pointed out that not all Police Officers convicted of serious Road Traffic Offences are sacked.
I then went on to comment about the article in the newspaper which pointed out the training and assessment of air observers and my views still stand.
This is called debate and not a rant as you seem to resort to everytime someone disagrees with your point of view.
If you want to live in a society where everone has the same point of view then I suggest you withdraw from this site and join one which praises you and yours. North Korea would welcome experienced air observers I am sure.
I didn't understand the PCSO comments but perhaps they were put in whilst you were raging and not quite yourself.
As for the sun,all our rooms in here face North so as not to overheat on sunny days as the windows are obviously not designed to be opened.

[volrider]

Paarmo what industry are you in? It would be interesting to see if you are plod and just peeved as you failed a selection course for the air ops, or are you just generally interested in air support??

[paarmo]

Just generally interested. Never failed any selection courses in my life. In fact I have always been head hunted.
In the present economic climate I would suggest that not only are Police Air Observers under scrutiny but the whole system. Do we really need an Air Support Unit at the expense of other services?.

[Coconutty]

Way off topic but I'm "pro" hunting ;)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/HeadHunter.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[paarmo]

Have you ever actually been ON topic coco?.
Too much to ask I presume ,for you to actually bring something constructive to this post.
Come the cuts in your funding, if this is an example of your professionalism, you will be one of the first to go. Replaced by a cut price but equally professional civilian.

[Coconutty]

paa...

( abbreviated to demonstrate how pathetic it is to abbreviate someone's User ID ) :ugh:

"paarmo" - Is this an acronym for
"Pathetic Attempt At Repeating Myself Obstinately" ?

If you took the trouble to read some of my previous posts you would see that I am frequently "on topic".

However if you read one of my more recent posts ( in this thread ) you will also see :

Having read previous posts I am really not interested in what you think http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif
( Although I must admit to being a little intrigued at your comments that "MY" funding is being cut :confused: :confused: :confused: ( what ? ) - followed by a vague sort of insult that I am not professional ( not sure in what capacity ), and that I am to be "replaced by a cut price but equally professional civilian ". ( wtf ? ) :confused: :confused: :confused:

However, whilst not wishing to rise to the bait, or "feed the troll", I really do think it's time you left this thread as it is YOU that has nothing constructive to add other than your extremely blinkered and obviously prejudiced view.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - You have given yours ( several times ) and have been told what the majority of people visiting this thread think of them.

Now it's time for you to go.

Good - bye :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg