DFO's Letter to Crew

[PanZa-Lead]

New contract out on Monday. 65 here we come..read about in Crew Direct

[mayday911]

Significant pay cut for COS99 FOs and a significant pay increase for DECs to the current B scale (unified pax and freight scales for CNs)...that seems fair. On top of that command time heads towards the horizon.

[2 cents]

Great timing. Get completely shafted twice at the same time.

[treboryelk]

am i reading this correctly...that those who took early commands on the freighter will now be on B scale command salary?

i am just hoping that i am mis-reading this!

[mayday911]

Don't forget the DECs, especially the ones that left CX with huge p funds and the BA guys with very nice pensions.

[Fly747]

As I read it the freighter DECs will now be flying pax too and getting a pay rise.

[ACMS]

oh boy...........this just gets better and better..........................:(

[SweepTheLeg]

am i reading this correctly...that those who took early commands on the freighter will now be on B scale command salary?

i am just hoping that i am mis-reading this!

Yep, they'll be flying pax, getting a raise, and most importantly, they're not moving from their base, for... uhhh... forever. In effect they just jumped way out of seniority to take your based pax captain slot.

Good luck everyone

[ACMS]

If I'd known I would have taken a 400 Freighter base in SYD 2 years ago.

This is just bull ****.

Surely the AOA MUST put it to a vote.???

[ALPHA FLOOR]

STANDBY GUYS! lets here from the GC first - the DFO could be using this as a union busting manoever or has other more dubious motives- I dont trust the man or the company he keeps!!!!! I am not defending a potentially bad AOA decision, all I am saying is dont be suckered in by the Swire-gods...... TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY.

AFL

[Rice power]

This Was Not Agreed To By The Aoa Gc.
This Is Another Attempt To Divide The Pilot Body.
Do Not Over React And Wait For The Gc Missive.

[Harbour Dweller]

From the AOA

Ladies and Gentlemen

CX ANNOUNCEMENTS ON COST REDUCTION MEASURES

By now you will probably have seen, or at least heard about, the
announcements on intraCX about the Company's proposals on cost reduction
measures, including SLS.

The General Committee's negotiating team has been involved in talks with
management over the past 48 hours.

We are currently putting together a paper explaining the details of what is
being proposed and our recommendations on what we believe the Membership
should do. This will be sent to you over the weekend.

Please read the Company's documents carefully and, of course, the paper we
will send to you.

In the meantime, do not rush into signing any option offered until you fully
understand what is being offered.Everyone should re read the AOA's comment above very carefully.

The AOA has not announced their recommendation to the Pilot body yet. Are we all going to trust the word of NR?

They have warned against signing any offer from CX mis-management.

The AOA will be in contact with its members over the weekend.

[poydras]

I am honestly perplexed by the behaviour of Management.
Before starting at CX, we "common mortal of small company", saw CX as an Elite, unshakeable company.Well after seeing and hearing the weekly updates I am less impressed with the CX style.I do understand that CX is NOT a state sponsored airline but I can tell you that the continous depressing news and memos altoghether with "a new contract" decided overnight won' t happen at Lufthansa or even at "lesser" prestigious companies.

[mayday911]

I do not think that the AoA has much of a choice on this thing. Doesn't sound as if there will be a vote, just a choice left up to the individual.

[Bow Inn]

Dear Flaps 10,

Please read post #16 by Harbour Dweller or re read your email from the AOA. Good luck.

[MACH.88]

Flaps 10
Slow down mate!!! Nothing has been given away yet mate. Now take three deep breaths and calm down. Paranoia can be contagious.

MACH.88:cool:

[cxlinedriver]

What do you guys mean by 'break the AOA'? Nigel did that! The AOA has been broken since the 49ers. To be effective a union needs to have over 95% membership.

[Michael Hunt]

Would you really want to work an extra 10 years for a company that takes this type of opportunistic approach to labour relations, and not for the first time I might add.
The clouding of the two separate issues of SLS and age 65 by trying to link the two together with the thinly veiled threat that people not supporting the scheme do not have the best interest of the company at heart.
Whether you support the idea of SLS or not is personal preference but it is time critical to be of any effect so yeah lets get everyone's decision on that but age 65 can be be dealt with in due course why do we need to decide on that at the same time with some weird SLS discount if you sign one way or the other. Diabolical stuff!

[Air Profit]

Diabolical stuff indeed! You have just described the past 15 years of management tactics. Everyone should use this latest event to evaluate what type of career they want to commit themselves to. I can assure you that this type of morally vacuous behavior is something that will always be part of your career at CX. Cathay can and will change your conditions at will. They have learned over the past years that there is really no cost to doing so. For those of you who are 35ish or younger, I would strongly suggest you consider a career with a proper airline, in a country that has a strong labor code. CX traps you here with just enough money when you start to make it attractive, then slowly erodes your pay and conditions as the years go by. Eventually you find you are trapped, and have to accept a rather bitter and unsatisfying existance (well done CX mgmt, you have emulated the worst examples of corporate mgmt). If you don't like what you are seeing....be in no doubt that you will see it again and again. Get out now if you can. ps. this time CX mgmt have really outdone themselves in the sheer unfairness of the consequences to individuals and their expected career conditions. Unbelievable. :sad:

[rhoshamboe]

If all the captains sign over to get age 65 (which would make sense for them all) then theoretically none will be extending past 55. If no-one is "extending" then my thought is no bypass pay will be paid and there is benefit to F/O's staying on COS 99. True or false?

[Numero Crunchero]

No not correct. BPP is paid in accordance with YOUR CoS, not the extendee. If you stay on CoS99 you will be eligible for BPP which will be triggered by all CNs over 55(subject to legal outcome over Frtr CN triggering BPP)

clear as mud?

[rhoshamboe]

Thanks Numero.

[Numero Crunchero]

And don't assume all captains will sign over to 65 - the devil is in the details! Some of us were hoping to leave by 55 - not work for less for longer!

[F Scaler]

Cathay can and will change your conditions at will.

Yep, AP...I think we can all agree on that, but...

Who really thinks if you lock into 55 now, that you won't be able to change that down the track given any upturn will obviously see an unprecedented demand for our services!

It sounds pretty easy to me: Age 55

Tony and friends have been stationed at the top and under their watch have enjoyed seeing their freight cartel attract attention of the US... and now AUS, NZ and the EU.
They have also seen their punt on fuel in the Macao casino fail. They would like all in the company to share the pain.
Now...if I, god forbid, prang a jet, will I get to keep my job and ask all in the company to share the pain by taking SLS to pay for the repair? Hmm!

It sounds pretty easy to me: No SLS


Fact:

This company won't fall over tomorrow.
Tony's noble idea of more unpaid leave than most, WILL be paid back in spades by his own bonuses down the track. More money, less work! (I just wish we could work out how to do the same! It's a shame most ground staff are blinded by big business ideology)

[sisyphos]

So will a eg number 2000ish seniority list- freighter cpt now suddenly get B-Scale AND Pax-Roster AND RA65 AND his base ?????? :mad:

[Ex Cathedra]

The big bad wolf has been dropped in the sheep's pen. They're trying to scare everybody onto COS08.

The thing is, I thought the company was 'desperately' trying to save cash now, but moving everybody over to COS08 will not save them as much $$ as SLS, so if it's one or the other, then they don't really need that cash, do they?

And how fair is it exactly to take a paycut for the rest of my life to help the company through a crisis that will only last a few years?

[sisyphos]

unbelievable... :mad::mad::mad:

[iflylow]

Somebody please explain to me why I should agree to a paycut and slower career progression just so I can work longer to try and recoup it all???

What kind of retarded choice is that?

[Oval3Holer]

Really boys, we need to separate the SLS from the new contract situation. SLS is peanuts compared with what will happen with RA65, CoS08, junior freighter Captains on a base getting the same pay as a passenger Captain on a base, etc.

Never sign a new contract. Despite shiny and tasty frosting, the cake beneath will be rotten. You just won't discover it until you get to the middle...

If you value your longevity at CX, take SLS. If you don't, they will remember your "lack of support" at the most inopportune time for you.

[JohnLemon]

Yep,

that is the fair deal for everyone, just like the AOA promised!
More time and money wasted!

John

[cxlinedriver]

There will not be an AOA vote on RA65 etc. The AOA only represents about 55% of CX pilots therefore they do not have the moral authority or industrial might to decide on contracts. The company has made the 'offer'. It is now up to each pilot to evaluate the pros and cons. Either way it is time to grab the KY and take it like a man. CX pilots will NEVER unite enough to stop the shafting.

[Hkgdriver]

Gents,

I think the FTR PAX pay is being taken out of context ... I hope

The way I see it the union has an agreement where ALL future commands will be filled in Seniority , no more cheap FTR early commands??

I would imagine then any Captain that is currently on the FTR will be ring fenced until such time as they hold the seniority to hold a Command on the now one line list?

If this is not the case then it is basically a case of DIRECT entry commands on the Passenger fleet which is against your COS?? I have not read in Mr Rhodes update that is the case?

Finally in regards to the Age 65 quite simple if your young enough play the game say yes please love to Help out on the SLS but I only want to work until 55. Wait for a base go get it as an f/o then let the legal system of that country work out the age discrimination issue, meanwhile your getting bypass pay?

I look forward to :ok:the HKAOA's update

[Numero Crunchero]

hkgdriver, you pretty much have nailed it.


About the current offering - what's that saying - if a man comes at you brandishing a knife, whilst watching the knife hand, beware his other hand delving into your pocket for you wallet. (for the metaphorically challenged knife = redundancy, stealing wallet=CoS08)

[PanZa-Lead]

Relax...You are making all sorts of wild theories and you will die of a heart attack. Wait to read the contract. Apparently the AOA has managed to get some good concessions i.e. If command extends to say 15yrs then when you get a command it will be at level 3 Captain seniorority. There are other stoppers in there to prevent freighter captains going onto passenger B scale until their seniorority is high enough to take a pax command.

Relax until you read the whole thing and stop spreading b..llsh..t

[Snapper_head]

Gent's I would be very careful assuming that you will get and BBP.

Our contract states

BYPASS PAY
10.1. In any case of retention of Captains beyond the Retirement Age, subject to 10.3 & 10.4,
the next most senior First Officer on the Aircrew Seniority List will receive Command
Bypass Pay in the form of Captain’s Salary, allowances and benefits on a one for one
basis commencing upon the date that the retained Captain reaches the Retirement Age.
The payment of Command Bypass Pay will cease when the retained Captain retires.

So when the extended Captains that are triggering BBP sign COS08 they will effectively raise their retirement age and no longer be on extension. This will not trigger BBP.

Junior officers stand by for the pineapple.

[AvGaurd]

This is the way I see it. The company tried to get everyone on COS08 and it didn't work so now this is another scheme for them to F^^^K us again. I can't believe the AOA actually sign off of this chit. COS09 Freighter FO get F$$%%ked everytime. I for one I'm not going to sign chit that will make me loose a dime even if it means retiring at 55. Go and shove it......

[superfrozo]

Don't worry about it: those sort of semantics won't stand up in any court in the world. (Except for North Korea. Or Iran. Perhaps Syria. And definitely Zimbabwe!)

The establishment of a new COS does not invalidate a previous contract, that is, COS 99 specifically states the RA as 55.

For what you say to occur, it would effectively mean that every labour contract ever written has an implied clause of "subsequent contracts (unsigned by you) will supersede and directly alter your employment terms!".

For example: why didn't COS 99 people start being paid UFO salaries when they were introduced on COS08 employees. I mean, the COS 08 salary scales stated "WEF 01 Jan 2008"?

Even the HK Labour Tribunal agrees on this. :D

[AvGaurd]

superfrozo I hear what you are saying but if the company is offering RA65 for COS08 that effectively means my original COS99 no longer applies. All I know is the Base freighter guys get F%&^K every time. I'm going to restrain myself till Monday to see the full GMA package. I still don't understand why they are going to give us only 10 days to make this important decision. It's a lot to think about......Giving away command, pay, and whatever else.

[superfrozo]

AvGuard,

not ever been "freightside" myself so I'm not up to speed on the contractual changeover to COS 08 for you guys. But...

If you're on COS 99 and there is no requirement for you to sign COS 08, simply stay on COS 99. Irrespective of the wording in Para 10 on COS 99, when Captains on the seniority list (any COS - who's to say CX won't extend COS 99ers if req'd at a later date anyway!!) are older than 55, they should trigger BPP for the COS 99 SFOs.

My use of the term should is not meant to imply it could be legally optional. It certainly wouldn't be, but of course, this is the same "Year Zero" company that begrudges SOs their legally entitled BPP as a result of DEFOs.

However, standby for this little gem to be redressed. At great cost to the airline.

When are these plonkers gonna learn the meaning of the adage "penny wise pound foolish"??:ugh:

[Hiro Nakimura]

What do you mean, when are they going to learn? They are already experts at PennyWise....

[Jack57]

...standby for many AOA resignations - I for one have not been consulted or informed of any of this. Appalled

[ALPHA FLOOR]

Jack so far the AOA HAVE NOT SIGNED OFF ON ANYTHING! Wait and see what they put forward over the weekend - you are falling right into NPR's trap!!!! Calm Calm Calm

AFL

[Jack57]

you are right AF - just seething after reading the DFO's letter

[volarecantare]

Quote "If I'd known I would have taken a 400 Freighter base in SYD 2 years ago"

Now, if only your foresight was as sharp as your hindsight...so you didn't take that option then, didn't prioritise your life properly, and for anyone who did, you want to nail them.sweet...:{

[Toe Knee Tiler]

What a week!

[Ex Cathedra]

What a week!

It ain't over. Wait for the next one!

It does worry me that Dick Rod, in his letter, enthusiastically announces that the Aoa has reached an agreement on the matter of SLS and COS08. I won't throw JetA on the fire and will religiously wait for the Aoa mail, but I sincerely hope they're not just going to tell us which is the best gun for us to shoot ourselves with...

[ALPHA FLOOR]

What worries me more is GMA "package" on monday, now that we have all had a weekend to fume "seconds out, round number 2....." Tossers Tossers Tossers!

AFL

[treboryelk]

volecantare....what a crock of ****...it was not about foresight...it was about taking freighter command vs pax FO.....securing a base where you could.

[volarecantare]

well if ones priorities then had been "base" he would have been happier now eh? Not wanting to upset anyone but when decision are made for whatever reasons then they better be for the ones that matter most.

[Toe Knee Tiler]

Tell Me Why "i Don't Like Monday, Tell Me Why...

[Composite Man]

Snapper_Head, I too share your concern about the retirement age issue and triggering of BPP if you stay on COS '99, however, Para 36 of COS '99 states that normal retirement age is 55.

It stands to reason then that any pilot staying on past 55, regardless of which COS they are on, will trigger BPP if you remain on COS '99.

Having said that though, we all know that the Company's interpretation of these matters varies depending upon the day of the week.

[RAT Management]

All unite and say NO stop being little girls and stand up and fight for OUR rights.

[RAT Management]

The Company creatted this mess they need to solve it. If you sign COS 08 you solve the companies mess with no compenstaion. Stand up for your self!

[Westcoastcapt]

I beg to differ! The company didn't create this mess. No, it was the people who kept coming and accepting reduced conditions of service. Why offer a pay rise when people keep willing to work for less.

Of course there are those who rant and rave and talk a tough line. Unfortunately, they are always the first to capitulate and turn and run. I have seen it everytime CX offers a new contract.

Sadly, it is every man for themselves.

[Stiflers]

Your so right Westcoast..... so right.

It happens EVRYTIME.

[boxjockey]

Oh don't worry Westcoast, we know where you stand on the "unity fence"...

box

[Oval3Holer]

Stated in DFO's letter: "
There are a number of other significant components to the agreement, most notably the unification of Command Pay for Passenger and Freighter aircraft on the current B Scale, the addition of two more increment points on the Cos 08 F/O scale, the introduction of ‘longevity’ points for F/Os and an improvement in the Scope Clause to include Freighter aircraft. Full details of the agreement will be communicated to you all in due course."

Where is this NOW? I have read CoS08 and see nothing of this mentioned; no additional FO increments, etc. Nothing so far in the GMA's letter addresses these issues.

Without a FACA, why are there still freighter CN payscales?

If I don't sign CoS08, will the guy 1000 numbers junior to me, who signs CoS08, be able to take the next available "freighter" command at PAX CN pay? Nothing on this issue is clear.

Who and when will clear it up?

[KRMQQ]

Like most things the "management" of the company do this has not been well thought out and had been very poorly presented. There are gaping holes and many unanswered questions as mentioned above. Hold your fire on deciding which option is for you. Innundate them with email and telephone questions this week and next and lets see how they react. They will be getting very nervous if they have few committments by the midddle of next week - let 'em sweat!

But it is extremely sad to see my colleagues turning on each other with venom and hostility over all of these issues. We all joined on the conditions that were on offer at the time and have been engineered into the current chaotic situation by poor management. Think long and hard about your options and don't just drool over this hugely over-rated issue of bypass pay.

Life is what you make it so be cool and try, even though it seems to be very hard for the regulars on this forum, to be nice to your colleagues and friends.

And at the end of the day you guys will do what you always do, despite the big words of bravery. The cold economic decisions are simple. The vast majority of you will meekly sign. You always do.

Now that should set the pack alight!!!

[Oval3Holer]

Bypass pay is FAR from "hugely overrated!" If I stay on CoS99, I can stay on my base and get bypass pay for the rest of my career, 'cause that's about how long it would be before I could ever think of getting a command on my base.

No? It's happening right now, guaranteed, straight from the mouth of the horse who's receiving it!

[Ex Cathedra]

It is interesting that the company has put itself in a situation where the crew and the company don't have a common interest


It's called bluffing. The company is desperate for everyone to jump on COS08, hence the threatening stance and short deadline. Psychological warfare at its best. They have a lot to loose, maybe as much as we have...

One question that has to be answered is that if the company is desperately seeking immediate cash preservation, what are they so intent on everybody signing COS08, since that would bring them no immediate cost reduction...?

Don't sign anything. Wait. Ask questions, ask for more time, wait for the Aoa message.

[Harbour Dweller]

sirhcttarp,

Hats off to you sir. One of the most accurate posts to date.


Scenario B - fleet expansion continues in 2010
Case 1 - all capt signs cos 08, all fo/so stay on cos 99
For us: All capts turning 55 stays on thereby triggering BPP for junior FO's. For company: Crewing needs increases, and payroll has to pay sr. capt year 18 salary + BPP + command courses offered to crew new aircraft.
Result: very expensive!!!


All FO's & SO's need to read the quote above.

Anyway you look at it... the worst case scenario for company and funnily the best case scenario for us is if all capts sign to COS08 and everyone else stay on COS99!!! It is interesting that the company has put itself in a situation where the crew and the company don't have a common interest. It's going to be a never ending battle this way. It'll take enlightened managers to come up with a solution that has the interest of the company and crew as the ultimate goal.


You have nailed it.. :ok:

Don't sign anything until the AOA message comes out which explains all of this.

[VR-HFX]

Sir

Yes that about sums it up and I understand the penny has just dropped upstairs:eek:

[WeakForce]

Management at CX really are pathetic amateurs. They try to pull the "same team same dream" thing with unpaid leave but then say if you're willing to accept lesser contractual conditions you're excused from doing unpaid leave!

You don't need to be a rocket scientist with a boroscope to see through it.

:mad:off Nick.

[Rook]

Sort of related questions.
I am already on Cos08 and my contract says I will get BPP "in case of retention of captains beyond the Retirement Age" as long as I'm not CAT D or don't decline command. It also says that "In case of recruitment of First Officers by Direct Entry, the next most senior Second Officer who, as of the date of joining of such First Officer, has completed 42 months of service and who is suitable for promotion will receive First Officer Bypass Pay in the form of a Junior First Officer's salary".
Is Cos99 any different? Does "Retirement Age" mean the RA 65 on my contract or the RA on the Captains contract? Or is this what the SO court case is about? If so why is that limited to SO's on CoS99?
Thanks

[hongkongpilot]

Rook,
I don't think you will get BPP anyway.

From Vol 1:
Age Related Restrictions
a. In accordance with the HKCAD exemption pilots who have attained their 60th birthday may continue to operate as long as the following conditions are met:
i. The pilot has not attainded his 65th birthday.
ii. The pilot acts as the pilot in command or as a co-pilot in an operation with more than one pilot and he is the only pilot at the controls who has attained his 60th birthday.

NO more BPP for COS08.:D

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

Don't sign anything until the AOA message comes out which explains all of this


HD..the AOA letter was supposed to be out today..any indication when they will send it?

Could somebody explain my scenario regarding CoS99 BPP:

Let's say I'm FO number 200 (for arguments sake!) on the Aircrew Seniority list..
Captain XYZ is 54 yo,decides to sign CoS08, and work until 65, but then calls it quits and retires at 64..
Question..any idea how long (+/-) before I'm eligable for BPP, should 70% off ALL cpt's decide to sign over to CoS08..
Once I reach this assumed date..I then receive Y1 capt salary UNTIL capt XYZ actually retires at 64?
Say I do my command 3years from now, whilst I'm ALREADY in receipt of BPP, I keep receiving BPP (until capt XYZ retires at 64)+my own capts salary (incremental) - correct?
What if I do my command BEFORE I become eligable for BBP?
Is this whole BPP thing about timing?

It might be transparent for some here, but I find the whole BPP-thing very confusing:confused:

NC or any other guru care to comment?

[treboryelk]

Rook,

for you sir i think it will mean that you get BPP for extension beyond 65.....for those on cos99, BPP is triggered by extensions beyond 55.

[goathead]

I'm really having trouble deciding here what to do (NOT) , but if you are .....I SUGGEST THAT YOU CALL SICK, through the period 30 April , then you will not have to put your request into crew direct , and avoid having to deal with this absolutey ridiculous AMBUSH .

The first shot has been fired boys and girls , this aint over its only the beginning ......STAND FIRM ,NO AND NO

I just want to ask one question more ...

Why on earth would you want to work for this company over 55 unless you were desperate !! ? THINK ABOUT IT , I surely ain't , no effen way ....:

[hongkongpilot]

AD POSSE AD ESSE

Once you are captain. You will not get BPP.:)

[Harbour Dweller]

AD POSSE AD ESSE,

Sorry for the late reply.

AOA update was out at 6pm as I'm sure your aware of by now.

To answer your question regarding BPP hongkongpilot is correct.

Once you gain your command you will lose BPP & restart the salary scale as Capt Yr 1 (which is actually the same place as what BPP is).

[Numero Crunchero]

I am sure more official guidance will be forthcoming but my answers follow...

Question..any idea how long (+/-) before I'm eligable for BPP, should 70% off ALL cpt's decide to sign over to CoS08..

About 50 CNs per year will reach 55 - so 70% is 35, assuming an even distribution of signers, about 3 years(given 200 off). But for many reasons I suspect the % of CNs signing will be much higher than 70% for any over 50. So more likely to be 2 years. Note, there are already around 120 CNs who are 55 or over - some C+T, the rest Frtr! ( so maths is 120 + 3 * 35 and 120 + 50*2)

Once I reach this assumed date..I then receive Y1 capt salary UNTIL capt XYZ actually retires at 64?
No - you receive BPP(yes at CN1 level) until you become a CN. If the number of extended captains is ABC, then the top ABC FOs(non Cat D) on the seniority list will be entitled to BPP - unless they have signed over to CoS08. Once you become a CN, the entitlement to BPP for XYZ passes down to the ABC'th person(assuming on CoS99).

Say I do my command 3years from now, whilst I'm ALREADY in receipt of BPP, I keep receiving BPP (until capt XYZ retires at 64)+my own capts salary (incremental) - correct?
No, you lose BPP as soon as you start receiving your Command pay - and your command increment will be probably Cn1( depends on longevity - discuss another time!)

What if I do my command BEFORE I become eligable for BBP?
Unlikely - there are already about 60-70 extendees generating BPP and likely to be another 40-50 (frtr CNs>54) assuming positive outcome of hearings. So by year's end there could be around 150 FOs on BPP - add another 50 per year - hard to imagine you not being in the top 150-200 before your command?

Is this whole BPP thing about timing?
My handle is Number Cruncher not Mr Cynical - for cynicism you will need to ask elsewhere;-)

[turnandburn]

How does a 63 year old do a line check on a 60 year old?, Has to be three man crew according ANO?(can't have two 60+ yrs at the controls at same time)

Can someone confirm if an F/O, S/O will get bypass pay on cos99 if anyone one on cos 08 older than 55?

[Saw San]

Re: BBP on Cos 99 - Yes you will. Answers on AoA Forum.

[hongkongpilot]

Can someone confirm if an F/O, S/O will get bypass pay on cos99 if anyone one on cos 08 older than 55?

Email FOP#PNL on Groupwise to get an offical answer.
It will be easier to find it there rather than in court later !:*

[leading_edge_device]

Hey quick question to you all.
Some guy talking to some other guys etc etc etc was reading into GMA's letter that if a cpt signs over to cos08 he no longer has a NRA of 55? now it becomes 65?
This might be the case of misleading text, then for all f/o's who do elect to stay on cos99 (which seems the logical point) they could be shafted even further as the number of captains extending past NRA will be minimal as none have yet passed 65, albeit a few are very close now.
Were these guys barking up the wrong tree or not?
NC care to shed any light on this one pls!!!!!!:bored:

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

NC....

You seem to be in BIG demand here mate..you should start charging an hourly rate!!

Thx for making thing clearer re my Q's on BPP...:ok:

Any idea then what the time frame is or expected to be, once you start receiving BPP and getting checked out as commander??

Obviously depends on expansion etc etc, but a rough ball park ceteris paribus..

How many FO's are presently on BPP and any idea how LONG they will be receiving BPP (years/months?) before command?

[Numero Crunchero]

Leading edge they are barking up the wrong tree. NRA is defined in YOUR contract as 55 - what the other guy(CN) does is up to him and CX. If he signs over then HIS contract says 65, but you get BPP for anyone going over 55. Make sense? Bottom line, if you stay on CoS99 you are eligible for BPP.

APAE,
that's a work in progress. But a quick back of the fag packet calculation will help give you an idea.
Lets say right now there are 100 guys working 55+. Lets say 50 new 55 year olds per annum for next decade. Lets assume everyone works till 65. I don't have the seniority list in front of me but lets assume about 1200 FO/SOs on CoS99.

So as of 1/5/09 100 FOs on BPP.
1/5/10 150 FOs on BPP etc etc until it peaks at a theoretical max of 500 FOs on BPP on 1/5/2017. I say theoretical max as that assumes every CN extends all the way to 65 with no loss of medical or early retirement. Now if the growth rate continues for the next 8 years as it has for the period 2001-2008(so taking out the Global Financial Crisis GFC) then we would have up to 400 guys upgraded. That would leave about 800 FOs on CoS99 with the top 500 receiving BPP. Extending these assumptions out a few more years, by 1/5/2023 the top 500 FOs are CoS99 AND receiving BPP - from that point on the number receiving BPP would reduce every year until 1/5/2033 when the last CoS99 FO is finally upgraded.

Now this example is extremely simplistic - it assumes a numerically constant growth rate when actual growth rate is likely percentage constant - same goes for retirements. In due course I will do a more accurate 'guesstimate'. What is certain is that if all CNs extend then junior FO/SOs on CoS99 are likely to be looking at years of BPP - in another post I quantified it at in excess of $1.5M HKD!

To answer your specific question....using my assumptions above, if you are in the bottom half of seniority then you are likely to get BPP from about 5 years before command - this assumes that 50 guys a year retire at 65 and 50 more commands due growth. If the growth rate was 0, then you would get BPP for 10 years.

NB I have ignored the problem with an available based command vs available HKG command. Save that conversation for another time;-)

[goathead]

What an absolute diabolical mess ....all created by same team same dream cx .....maniacs ,
why are you all talking about this and worrying so much , its VOLUNTARY why would you even consider this dogs breakfast to start with ......unless of course you are desperate.........
:ok:
forgettaboutit (F/OS) vote no and no

[AD POSSE AD ESSE]

NC...

Cheers again mate...

I know it's all just 'guesstimates', but you've just helped me make up my mind!!!

It's gonna be a BIG fat "NO" to CoS08...:=

[Oval3Holer]

This is an official reply as of 21APR09 from Flight Ops Personnel regarding B-scale CN pay for freighter CNs (paraphrased to protect the innocent): CN payscale agreement details have yet to be agreed in AOA negotiations, so, until further notice, there are no changes to the present payscales and the fact that freighter CNs will be paid freighter pay.

[hongkongpilot]

CN payscale agreement details have yet to be agreed in AOA negotiations, so, until further notice, there are no changes to the present payscales and the fact that freighter CNs will be paid freighter pay.

:eek::eek::eek:
I'm out of here. No to COS08. Thank you.

[Sqwak7700]

This is an official reply as of 21APR09 from Flight Ops Personnel regarding B-scale CN pay for freighter CNs (paraphrased to protect the innocent): CN payscale agreement details have yet to be agreed in AOA negotiations, so, until further notice, there are no changes to the present payscales and the fact that freighter CNs will be paid freighter pay.

Sounds to me like they are already realizing that they effed this one all up. I'm sure there are many other interpretations that will "mysteriously" change as Cathay sees fit.

I'm not surprised by Cathay's actions, I'm just dumb-founded by our pilots naivete. There are some among us that are tripping over themselves to sign up, it just baffles the mind.

I think that when the numbers are in it should be made public so that I can contact these individuals and sell them property on the moon. :ugh:

[dragonflyhkg]

Notwithstanding that many of us may have posted a question to FAQ#PNL, none of the questions or their answers are yet available for the staff to read via IntraCX, as far as I can presently check.

Posting transcripted questions and answers here is not verifiable.

Caution required.

Dragonfly

[saikung]

I would be great if this Thread had a couple of hundred of our guys writing in it. Unfortunately its the same names reappearing. Out of 2500 crew thought there would be more oppinions

I've seen it all before. Most people will sign, a % won't and their careers will go nowhere in CX

Sorry, but that's the way it's been over the years.

Do what's right for yourself and your family long term, It's the only way

[saikung]

********************Copied from AeroBoss Thread***********************

My dear chaps and chapesses,

I thought I would be pompous enough to air my views on all this as some of the people here seem to be convinced they are involved in a battle they can win. Some of the young blood on this forum are obviously in need of a reality check in the form of a TIA explanation. (This Is Aviation!)

Before I start, remember I have the best of intentions and that shooting the messenger will get you nowhere apart from releasing some of that testosterone that you young men should sell on eBay. You would make a fortune, take 20 years unpaid leave give the fingers to CX and live a long and meaningful life at last.

I am merely going to pass on advice that was given to me in the 80's by a senior manager of a well known French/Dutch Major airline (who by the way also think they are the best airline/aircrew in the world despite the fact that they break an aeroplane every 3 years... so you see Cx' arrogance has got a long way to go yet...).

Now he was not a visionary or some financial guru, he just had some common sense and had been in aviation long enough to know how the big game of chess was played.

The rules are these,

- You will be an employee (understand "shaftee")
- Never turn down a command or you will regret it (sounds familiar)
- The market has a 7-10 year cycle so if nothing has happened to you for 7 years and something comes on the table grab it with both hands
- Prepare for a career in the RHS with short spells in the LHS so never spend more than FO pay, EVER!
- Never work for a subsidiary company because when consolidation comes around these guys are always shafted (he knew, he was a shafterhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif)
- Never complain about commuting because we managers hate it when a guy signs on the dotted line to be based somewhere and then cries that the commute is costing him his life, cash and health.
- Never move house for a flying job. The job has to come to you, if not it is not good enough and you will find another one.
- Do your job well because One strike and you're out and your family name will be remembered forever.
- Have a good life outside work otherwise you'll go bonkers.

This my fellow shaftees is the oath that you took when you decided to be a commercial pilot.

Furthermore, as far as CX is concerned, it is no different than other airlines. It is a rogue airline with rogue accounting practices partly because it is the way they are, and partly because it is the way they have to be to survive. (look at the name of the well "respected" carriers involved in the price fixing fiasco which is by the way much more unexcusable than the fuel hedging issue). Hell, I used to fly for an airline who was sending late rush bags via limo to passenger homes charging a fortune and funny enough the director of the chauffeur company was also sitting on the board of directors of the airline. Not to mention the brown enveloppes full of £$ etc that we were flying to the channel islands. I'll stop as the list goes on forever. CX do it with HAECO and whatever else but "Hello", wakey, wakey, wellcome to the real world.

When you join CX you know that you are in no mans land (HK) and that you are in for a rough ride.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

But make no mistake. Life is just as unfair in other pastures, only in a different kind of way.

All I will say is this:

- You always complain that CoS/pay never go up but as soon as one group of pilots gets a "payrise" you bitch and moan about it because it was not YOU this time (€ vs £, when clearly for the poor European guys when the £ went down the tube, they took a beating. So they were only going back to what they were owed. Having said that, when they agreed to be paid in £, it is risk they agreed to without being forced by anyone but themselves. Anyway, battle won and instead of being happy for them, you called your mum because that was unfair bla bla bla...)
Same goes for the Freighter dogs who have been sh@t on for so long rumouringly going on B Scale (whether it materialises or not, perso I be amazed if that's the case). Rather than be happy for them you just b!tch like there is no tomorrow. Any improvement is just that, an improvement.

I am not being funny, but some of you guys are worrying about your commands for the wrong reasons: you are going to have to grow up first. CX is one airline where you need to be able to walk the walk not just talk the talk to get a command. They do not like angry young men who think God owes them a command.

- When you decide to go to HK, yeap, you take all the good expat stuff, along with complimentary housing allowance (aka golden chain), but you'd better get it right, just in case you can't make it back on the base. Some guys have turned down Pax commands and done their bit on the freighter instead, to protect their base. I don't think any of them regret it. "Happy wife, Happy life", "it's not all about $$$" and that sort of crap...

- A Scalers...Well Well Well. Actually, I would say 99% of them are lovely guys who had the gutts to move to HK when the place was really anything but this buzzing cosmopolitan city that we know today, and you could not get back to Londonistan in 13 hours flat 4 times a day. They have made money and good for them. They tought they would retire at 55 but know they can work to 65. Again an improvement as most of them want to stay beyond 55. Just stop insulting your seniors! The fact that you were born 20 years too late really has nothing to do with them! Just don't fall in the trap of stereotypes.

- Freighter commands out of seniority... Really? So when these notices to crew came up and said do you want to fly the 400 in the LHS, did it say in reverse seniority order? If it was not going to be cheap, you would have had another ASL fiasco. It has to work for managment, not for you. But some of you are to good to accept to fly rubberdog sh!t I suppose...

...I am sure a lot of you hate me and quite frankly I don't care. I will only like you back because you have the gutts to say so (albeit without stating your name). We are all aviators fulfilling our passion in a hostile environment, so be it. They will never take away from us breafast over the Alps or Sunrise in ANC in the Summer. That's why they hate us.

Don't fall in the trap. Don't turn on each other, you give them amunition to say that we are overpaid premadonnas etc...

In a nutshell, turn their pirate ways to your advantage, because quite frankly they don't give a stuff about 20 or even 2000 unhappy pilots ("we fired more than 50 guys, CNs and FOs and the airline didn't stop" quote unquote).

Be brave in the flight deck, not on PPRuNe and people will respect you for it. A friend of mine was diagnosed with leucemia at age 23, believe me he would have accepted a 2 billion percent paycut to get rid of that crap. Put things into perspective for goodness sake. (I am sure one of our late young fellow pilots and his family would love to be faced with the dilemma of age 55 right now)

I am not saying don't fight but be responsible for your actions, be happy for the guys who get a good deal and try to be one of them, and only then will you get respect from your peers.

This was probably my first and last post, (I can hear the sigh of relief from a lot of you), I am now standing by with my helmet on. Good luck guys, fly safe, take care of your family first. Hell to them, love to us.

Cheers
AB

[the reo]

Just beware that there are three versions of what is being offered to you.
DFO letter - Version 1
GMA letter - Version 2 (doesn't match no 1 exactly)
CREW direct (after you click past the GMA letter)- Version 3 (doesn't match exactly in whats offered to the GMA letter). p.s make sure you close it afterwards rather than making a choice this early in the phase.:ugh:

[M89speedtouch]

Three versions?
My response is the same. Don't trust the :mad:ers.

[BalusKaptan]

Saikung,

Thanks for that.
Couldn't have put it better myself you hit the nail right on the head. Some of the posters here need to sit up and see reality!!

[Air Profit]

sugeng, your rather appalling level of english competency is one of the main reasons that 'us whites' are needed to keep your little aviation world functioning safely. When you improve your grammar, please do come back and continue your discussion. Go on...run away now. There's a good boy. :ok:

ps. 'us whites' have also given you a few other things...such as a proper legal system, the airplanes you fly, etc, etc....

[Flap10]

Air profit, don't waste any time on the idiot, judging by his previous posts on other forums he is an Indonesian with virtually no experience...most likely because he regularly blacks out on landing.

[volarecantare]

:D

Well done, hope to hear more from you.