Does IFR authorise NVFR???

[SM227]

Hi all,

Just a bit confused with a couple CAO paragraphs in the instriment rating section. It says that a special type of IR permitts a pilot to fly under the NVFR in if they meet the aeronuatical and recency requirements.

My question is what is the special type of IR rating, one which is not restriced to day only? Does this then mean that if I go out and do the flying to meet those requirments I can automaticaly start doing NVFR flights without completing all NVFR training and a flight test?

[AussieNick]

if i recall correctly, you need 5 hours PIC night in order to conduct night IFR.

[manymak]

And also the appropriate x-country training flights before NVFR flights flown using an instrument rating. Remember if you don't have a NVFR Rating and your instrument rating lapses you cannot conduct any night fights

[startingout]

What is the rule in regard to aircraft themselves... Does the plane you fly with your IR under NVFR rules have to be endorsed as IFR or can it just be NVFR? This question has come up before and never was able to gain a clear answer. Im in the same situation, as have no night rating. :ok:

[bentleg]

What is the rule in regard to aircraft themselves... Does the plane you fly with your IR under NVFR rules have to be endorsed as IFR or can it just be NVFR?

Your flight is either IFR or NVFR (not both). To fly NVFR the plane must be endorsed NVFR (need not be IFR). To fly IFR, the plane must be IFR.

To answer the piloting query my understanding (please correct me if I am wrong) is you must meet the NVFR recency requirements to fly at night - NVFR or IFR. If you are not IFR current you can still fly NVFR so long as you have a NVFR endorsement and are NVFR current. As pointed out by manymak if you don't have NVFR, and lose IFR currency, you cannot fly at night, IFR or VFR.

[Capt Fathom]

Have a look at this thread (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-aviation-questions/362066-nvfr.html)

[Tinstaafl]

People seem to be confusing NVFR requirements (including recency) with IFR requirements (and recency)

NVFR & IFR are two separate worlds, operationally and qualification-wise - with a particular exception that allows pilots with a CIR *and* additional specified experience to use NVFR procedures without holding a NVFR rating.

To fly IFR (day or night) you must meet the recency & currency requirements for *IFR* - not NVFR. If the flight is at night and you wish to carry pax. then you must have three take-offs & landings at night in the last 90 days.

To fly NVFR (er...that's at night, for the hard of thinking :} ) then you must meet NVFR recency/currency/qualification requirements *or* meet the requirements specified in the rules pertaining to a CIR using NVFR (instead of IFR procedures - so IFR recency/currency is irrelevent). If the flight involves carrying pax. then you must have three take-offs & landings at night in the last 90 days.

Note that the take-off & landing recency requirement is not specifically a NVFR thing: It applies no matter what flight rules you will be operating under. No different to the day requirement for 3 take-offs & landings to carry pax, irrespective of flight rules.

There are pros & cons with each rating as a means of gaining access to NVFR procedures. Presuming the CIR holder has met the requirements that allow him/her to use NVFR procedures then his/her access to use NVFR procedures ends the day the CIR lapses. However, a CIR holder can use NVFR procedures on a charter flight if certain additional charter related recent experience requirements are met. On the other hand the NVFR rating holder never has to worry about the rating lapsing but can only ever use the rating for private & aerial work operations.

[GreenerGrass]

Extract from CAO 40.2.1 Para 8.3:

"(e) except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only
operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as
pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is
sought."

This is required prior to the issue of a Command Instrument Rating.

[Tinstaafl]

That night experience for the issue of a CIR still doesn't allow a CIR holder to use *NVFR procedures*, only IFR procedures at night.

[Clearedtoreenter]

That night experience for the issue of a CIR still doesn't allow a CIR holder to use *NVFR procedures*, only IFR procedures at night.


Ha! Night Visual FR... a contradiction in terms if ever there was one!

(Anyone who flys far at night under the NVFR has rocks in their head:))

One thing I don't understand at night ... Why can a NVFR pilot descend below LSALT within 3 miles when a a CIR pilot cannot descend until within the circling area?

[bentleg]

Why can a NVFR pilot descend below LSALT within 3 miles when a a CIR pilot cannot descend until within the circling area?


Might be because a NVFR pilot doesnt know about approach plates and circling areas thereon. When I was taught NVFR, I was told to not descend until above the airfield.

[Lasiorhinus]

Its because the Night VFR pilot is, by definition, flying in VMC.

The IFR pilot may be visual with the destination, but not in VMC.

[Tinstaafl]

'Visual IFR' isn't a contradiction in terms. Every time you get the runway environment in sight to conclude an approach you're visual. All that happens is the degree of 'visual' required changes according to the type of approach, from (commonly) 200'/1800m for a Cat 1 ILS through various increases as the approach positioning w.r.t the runway becomes less precise all the way to making a visual arrival below LSALT within 30nm by day etc.

As for IFR circling areas vs NVFR: 3nm radius has historically been the VFR (day or night) equivalent to the IFR circling area.