LHR on westerlies at the same time LCY on easterlies

[One9iner]

Something I've been meaning to ask for a while.

I live in South London - quite high up - top floor of a 7th story building that's also on a slight hill so I have a good view of aircraft movements over London on clear days.

An often occurence I have noticed on a number of days are arrivals for LCY landing East and LHR arrivals landing West. I'm sure this is due to different localised wind directions at the two airports, but it often happens when the weather report indicates winds from the west. Can the tall buildings around LCY influence wind direction so much so that it can switch from say 310* to 30*?

Another question for the likes of HeathrowDirector and other ATCO's, what are the agreed flight levels of the two converging flight plans? The LCY arrivals often approach Clapham/Brixton from the SE before turning North towards central London before turning East, while the LHR arrivals are often turning onto finals over the same Clapham/Battersea/Brixton area but with a higher altitude. It makes for some interesting watching during busy periods. Is the same ATCO controlling the two aircraft at this point or are they flying in two different horizontal levels controlled seperately?

Please note I'm not trying to sensationalize or imply dangerous movements and often near misses as it's clear separation is always maintained.

Just interested.

Many thanks for any feedback.

One9er

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<while the LHR arrivals are often turning onto finals over the same Clapham/Battersea/Brixton area but with a higher altitude. It makes for some interesting watching during busy periods. Is the same ATCO controlling the two aircraft at this point or are they flying in two different horizontal levels controlled seperately? >>

Separate controllers applying local procedures to ensure that the aircraft are separated.

<<Please note I'm not trying to sensationalize or imply dangerous movements and often near misses .>>

Well, that's a relief!!

[One9iner]

Thanks.

Just found this picture. Im just SE of EGLW. What would the altitude be of LHR arrivals vs LCY arrivals?

http://www.compulink.co.uk/%7Esmctighe/Eglc/Images/SVFRchart.GIF

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Jeeez... a test question. One of the current contollers will be sure to answer but I recall that Heathrow traffic on the ILS descends on a 3 degree glidepath - around 3000 ft at 10 miles, 2500 ft at 8 miles. The London City traffic is descended on a westerly heading and only turned north when it is vertically separated from traffic on the Heathrow ILS so 1000 ft is built in to the procedure.

[Groundloop]

LCY will change runway direction as soon as a tailwind component begins to affect the current runway. This is because the runway is so short.

LHR, on the other hand, continues to operate on westerlies until the tailwind component exceeds 5 knots. This is for noise purposes.

Therefore the wind could be from the same direction at both airports but opposite direction runways can be in use.

[One9iner]

Great. Thanks for the feedback chaps!

[K.Whyjelly]

Once vectored off the stack and in towards LHR and cleared to an altitude of ( for example) 6000ft, we endeavour to fly a continuous descent profile all the way to G/S intercept and then down the ILS to land. Sure a current controller will be able to inform you more if needed

[ATCO Two]

One9iner,
It is fairly common for London City to be on runway 10 and Heathrow to be on runway 27L/R. London City is a very wind sensitive airport, and most jet aircraft cannot land with even one knot of tailwind. Usually a discrete radar position will be used at London Terminal Control Swanwick in this configuration, to ensure that London City traffic remains safely separated from Heathrow traffic. London City traffic for runway 10 will be descended from 3000ft to 2000ft at the eastern boundary of the London City Control Area. Aircraft will usually be level at 2000ft by a line north/south through City Airport. Traffic inbound to Heathrow will be descended from 4000ft to 3000ft at 13 miles from touchdown. Battersea Heliport is under the centreline for Heathrow at 10 miles, so traffic on the glidepath will be at 3000ft at that point. City traffic is turned onto base leg so that it does not pass west of Vauxhall Bridge. Therefore Heathrow and City traffic is always vertically separated by 1000ft in this configuration.

[One9iner]

ATCO Two, thanks a lot for the info. Just looked at a map on google and it all makes sense now.(in relation to my vantage point) :ok:

[Nicholas49]

This question is slightly OT but this seems the best thread to ask it, so I hope it is permitted.

If you are leaving the Ockham hold, which appears to be due south of LHR on the map shown above, how do you line up for 27L/R? Would you have to fly in a NE direction first and then make the turn to join the G/S? It would be a fairly sharp turn, wouldn't it?

I apologise for my non-technical expertise on this subject but would be grateful for any explanation!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

It's all under radar control but aircraft fly an approximate "circuit". Usual instruction is to leave Ockham heading around 070-080 (downwind). Descent is then given to 4000 ft, later to 3000 ft. At about 10 miles ESE of Heathrow a turn is made on to north (base leg) and speed is reduced. About 3 miles south of the centreline the aircraft is turned onto a northwesterly heading to "close" with the centreline. The autopilot , or sometimes the pilot manually, then flies the aircraft down the ILS to the runway.

That's what happens in very simplified terms but HTH.

[Nicholas49]

HD - many thanks for taking the time to explain.

[boguing]

Thread drift, but I asked a question a year or so ago which was wrongly framed.

I live about 4 miles South of Dorking, and mistakenly assumed that anything flying over me was Gatwick-bound. I was interested in average heght at this point, so as to be able to establish what cloudbase was (for forecasting purposes - before I went sailing).

I now realise that it's Heathrow's stuff.

So what height would you cross the A24 at when on approach to Heathrow when using 27?

Ta.

[HeathrowAirport]

When on City Easterflies, aircraft are normally vectored by City Radar Only to be opened when runway 10 is in use, THAMES_APP must always be opened first and Provides vectoring to aircraft on the final approach to runway 10.

On a normal vector aircraft are taken from ALKIN or SPEAR by Thames Radar then handed off to City Radar on a normal heading in between the 27R and 27L ILS for EGLL or towards Vauxhall Bridge in the case of this image VB, once nearby London Bridge and sometimes Vauxhall bridge for spacing there turned on a 2-3 mile base leg underneath the EGLL Traffic, sometimes this can be 1500ft-2000ft as long as they are 1000ft below Heathrow arrivals when EGLL is on 27s and and city on 10, they then are cleared to decend with the GP RWY 10 as EGLL Traffic in this region will be 4500ft+ In normal operations.

Im not a controller but as far as I know thats how they do it.

[HeathrowAirport]

boguing (http://www.pprune.org/members/130979-boguing), as far as I know they are leaving the OCK stack they will be at MIN Stack level so FL80, on passing EPM (Epsom) they are decended below stack level 6-4000ft depending on track miles, joining the BIG arrivals on there turn they are handed of to FIN (Final Director)

Remember MIN stack level can depend on the current air pressure, once again Im not an ATCO, this is all I know.

[iainf]

One for Heathrow Director.

Was sitting outside the Barbican last night watching this happen..for example a 146 going into LCY crossing underneath a A380 going into LHR.Forgive my ignorance but is there a wake vortex issue to be considered in maintaining separation here?

Thank you.

Iainf.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Iainf.... Not at the distance apart they would have been vertically..

[One9iner]

Sorry for digging up an old thread - thought best to continue on roughly the same subect rather than creating a new thread.

LCY has been operating easterlies for some days now due to the weather - as has LHR.

As explained by posters earlier on in this thread, LCY arrivals track west over South London, before turning north when over Crystal Palace / Brixton area. After travelling towards central London, they then track East and line up with LCY. (Please excuse the non-pro description!)

This is all done below 2000ft, so that any 27L/R Heathrow arrivals in the area maintain vertical seperation.

Over the past week while Heathrow arrivals have been coming in from the West, and not effecting traffic over SW/SE London below, I've noticed helicopters flying from Battersea, across London, from the North, and arriving from the South, flying at heigher altitudes, and at times what looks like a similar altitude to the LCY (2000ft) arrivals.

My question: are helicopter lane restrictions changed when Heathrow is on 09L/R and are the helicopter chaps over London in comms with the same controller as LCY arrivals (East)

Many thanks.

o.n.

[ATCO Two]

One9iner,
LCY arrivals for 09 do not always track over South London. Sometimes when there are no conflicting departures from LCY, they can be routed downwind left hand over North London and turned South onto a base leg by Alexandra Palace. Aircraft inbound to 09 are descended to 2000ft - not below 2000ft as you suggest, unless they are being vectored for a SRVA (radar vectors to a visual appproach, when they are descended to 1500ft at around 7 miles from touchdown).
When LCY are on Easterlies, twin engined helicopters inbound to Battersea are normally routed Brent - Barnes not above 1000ft from the North, or from due South of Battersea direct again at not above 1000ft. The London CTR is class A airspace and the LCY CTR is class D, therefore standard separation of 1000ft vertically or 3 nm horizontally must be applied between aircraft operating near the boundary of the two zones.
Within the LCY zone class D, visual separation can be used between helicopters and fixed wing traffic, i.e. there is no minimum separation between the aircraft. Traffic information is passed to both pilots in order that they might see each other. As long as both pilots have each other in sight and are happy with the situation, then ATC's job is done. IFR aircraft can ask to be separated from the VFR aircraft, if the pilot of the IFR is not happy.
However, as helicopter route H4 follows the Thames to the Isle of Dogs and has a maximum altitude of 2000ft, in practice we restrict helicopters on this route to not above 1000fr for added safety. Also helicopters are held to the west of London Bridge when eastbound on H4, and to the South of the Isle of Dogs when Westbound, until there are no conflictions with arriving traffic on 09. The gaps in the landing sequence are used to allow the helicopters to progress along the river. Control of the helicopters may be transferred to LCY Tower where they can use reduiced separation in the vicinty of an aerodrome to expedite traffic. H4 traffic and Helimed, Police etc operating near the final approach in the LCY CTR will normally work City Radar, the agency responsible for vectoring to 09. If there are no LCY inbounds there is no reason why helicopters in both zones cannot operate at 1500ft or 2000ft
Helicopters in the London CTR will normally speak to Heathrow Radar (SVFR). The two consoles are adjacent, so that close co-ordination can be maintained between the two controllers.

[One9iner]

ATCO Two. Many thanks for a great and informative answer. Much appreciated.

One9iner