EK Commanders Conference

[Fugazi]

A rostered duty, but AS has decided that Company transport will not be provided for the Commanders Conferences scheduled thru May. I thought our contract mandated that company transport would be available for rostered duties? Am I being petty in thinking this is really taking the p**s. :{

[jackbauer]

Am I being petty in thinking this is really taking the p**s
Yes you are!

[S.F.L.Y]

:ugh:I was told I would be given a Sim avail in Feb. So does this mean it still might happen?:ugh:

Do you want me to give you a lift? I have plenty of time as not so many companies are coming back to me for interviews :8...

[oz in dxb]

We can always meet down at Spinneys or Park 'n shop carparks and organise a car pool.

What a load of cr@p! No transport for a duty.:ugh:
This is in the same vein as the cabin crew that HAD to go to these bloody meetings whether they liked it or not. Same with us but only the most priviliged (Captain's only)

Oz

[pool]

To show our contempt, let's all show up some minutes late.

"... the wifey brought the Corolla back late ..."
"... the taxi didn't show up on time ..."
"... we couldn't find a parking spot ..."
"... there was a huge tailback at the SO exit ..."
"... we missed the exit and could only turn in Sharjah, not used to driving ourselves ..."

It will nicely disrupt their poor reality show :yuk:.

[Jet II]

To show our contempt, let's all show up some minutes late.



I would just point out that most of the airline drive themselves to work everyday.

[drop kick]

Think we might be missing the point here. Whats this "conference" all about? have they some more bad news??:ugh:

[pool]

I would just point out that most of the airline drive themselves to work everyday

Dear Jetty

Such arguments are simply silly.
Each work environement has its rules and regulations. At EK transport to duty is a such and not providing it, even for a special duty is a breach and precedent. Therefore the contempt, because you can then breach anything else, once the precedent set. Comprende?

[Not from here]

It would seem that not many turned up for their Thursday Sessions, so now we will all be forced to go, at least its rostered.
Dress code: since I seem to have miss placed my new how to dress page , does company uniform included Hats and Jackets or as we wear to the sim,. Which then brings up another question if we wear the hat can we take it off in the room?
For those with more sartorial knowledge please advise. So much to think about these days would hate to get a fashion violation.
:rolleyes:

[Marooned]

OK, TCAS has called a commanders conference. So, it is either another good listening to or perhaps, benefit of the doubt, an attempt to 'receive' as good as he wants us to take.

'The situation is grave' 'you should be grateful you have a job' BS should give way to an open exchange, that means you TCAS, an open exchange of why your management style is losing control at a time when you need all hands to the helm.

Yet you continue to erode Ts & Cs and without exception issue FCI after FC Bl**dy I damning us to share 'the pain' which you so obviously do not, at a time when you need us to comply with edicts you see necessary to reduce costs and save the bottom line.

If this totally superficial vehicle for the managements egos (jobs) is going to take place then we must be prepared. Ask the questions we want answering... answered there and then and not deferred, deflected or otherwise put off.

I'll start:

Why, after numerous ASRs from your commanders on fatigue issues did it take you months, months to do anything about it?

Why, when you tacitly acknowledged the 'fatigue' issue did you continue to produce fatigue ridden rosters?

Why now, when we were striving to improve standards, did we reduce training, put it all 'online' and yet harden PAM requirements to 'appear' to be doing the job properly?

Why TCAS do you 'reserve' the personal right recruit DECs despite many internally qualified pilots and do so in direct contravention of FOM policy? It would never happen at BA so why do you cynically do it here?

Why, when you have a workforce made up of an almost entirely ex-pat base do you limit their ability to return home on their 'days off' (now ADs) and thus deprive the company of income (staff travel) and the pilots themselves the chance to visit families and relatives who cannot travel so easily?

Why are people trapped in sub-standard accommodation (pilots unable to bring families over as they are still in apartments, others on the approach to 30L where babies are woken, rest broken by the noise) despite assurances that they would be provided with decent housing prior to being lured here?

Why, after some have committed to non-company accommodation but waiting for release dates, do you remove the contractual right to an allowance which would give some the chance to remove themselves from some of the sub-standard accommodation?

Why do you restrict access to the flight deck jump seats for ID carrying, fully vetted EK crews trying to find a way home when you have already have 'exceptions' in the FOM?

But my guess is that it is not going to be one of those conferences is it TCAS?

[Fart Master]

Just a bit of thread creep, but to add to the above post, I've just heard that the VP Flight Safety has resigned over the 'mis-management' treatment of the MEL pilots:=

[GoreTex]

its not a duty or training, I am not going

[Aircav]

If VP Flight safety has actually done that, then much respect to him. :D He will be the first person in the mismanagement department (I was going to say team but that would be an insult to the word) to show some back bone and stand up for what is right.

[SOPS]

I wil come...if I can get a taxi.................tossers:ok:

[mensaboy]

I cast my vote for Marooned to be the Pilot Spokesman at said conference meeting!

[145qrh]

So no transport, guessing no duty pay. Are they avin a larf. ?

[allaru]

'You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink'.

I unfortunately will have little to contribute at said conference.

Do you really think our comments will change anything, never have, and never will, until that awful day comes, and sadly with EKs present course it will come.

What do you mean "Why, after numerous ASRs from your commanders on fatigue issues did it take you months, months to do anything about it?"

should read

"Why, after numerous ASRs from your commanders on fatigue issues did you do nothing about it?

sorry to digress....but

The issue with safety in this here outfit has never been with the safety department. They have always strived to to the right thing, and have always been very professional by most accounts. The problem has been interference from above and sideways (HR) by mismanagers who are not qualified to comment, and as usual don't have a clue.

Regarding transport, I guess we can take our parking voucher and get TCAS to stamp it, or get Eds hoof mark for free parking.

I'm sure snacks will be provided, but with a limit of one soft drink or coffee. Pilots who make a suggestion will be thrown a biscuit.

[Marooned]

allaru:

I think you are right; from engineering running flight ops to fleets relationship to training or lack thereof, the structure itself flawed. And instead of being an integral part of flight operations flight safety was instead marginalised and prone to interference from purely commercial interests.

Vertical management, which goes right to the top with interference from TC, is always prone to topple eventually.

You are also right that we have been here before and no doubt will be again and NOTHING will be said or done of any value... waste of a day off.

[fly737]

And of course it’s showing right after the bidding closing, nothing on your personal calendar.
I’m bed they will put it right in the middle of your 5 days OFF….to f…U your life again?
OH, I forgot, you don’t need to travel back home cause your family can’t have 2 tickets a year now….PATHETIC

[fly737]

I bed...too tired to spell it correctly

[fatbus]

Does anyone actually go to the Thurs afternoon briefings?

[Mullah Kintyre]

A "conference"? Somehow I tend to think that their definition of "conferring" is somewhat skewed.

True to form, management have decided to insert the "duty" into the month of May after bidding closed. Either they are such a shambles they didn't dream this up until the last minute and then didn't think to give us notice OR they simply do not give a f**k.

I think the above should be the subject of the first question out of anyone's mouth if it isn't the first explanation and apology out of theirs.

It'll be interesting to see how many drivers are rostered by idiotic and witless crew-scheduling for the "conference" in the morning session after a midnight sign-off or the afternoon session before a midnight sign-on.

Not sure where it's being held but presumably the meeting's at the COC. Apparently it's two hours long which is short enough for them to simply bombard us with financial performance bull**** and other woes but not long enough for all the group to have a go at unloading their concerns. Oh and best of all, they'll get a least 5 dirhams out of everyone for parking!! Jesus Christ are they THAT desperate for cash?????

I do wonder why it's a "commander's" meeting. Maybe it's to empower the Capts to start upholding the standards they never teach anymore in their miniscule training syllabus.

Any management flunkies out there got any inside goss on the reason for the conference? I hope it's not the same as the Pursers who were made to attend financial briefing intended to motivate them with the bad news. On their day off.

[ekpilot]

Can't believe people are actually going to waste their time at these meetings...

BlaBlaBlaBla... meeting over!

[Wiley]

My suspicion is, that despite "toodle pip's" frequent imploring of all and sundry to attend the Thursday one-way talk fests so management could hear our concerns, attendance has been low enough to get the message across to management that, on the whole, the pilot group have done a Clark Gable on 'em. (Brett's message to Scarlett in that scene from "Gone With The Wind", for anyone for whom that was a bit cryptic.)

So, in that grand old tradition of "the whippings will continue until morale improves", they've decided to force pilots to attend what seems to be a carbon copy of the Thursday meetings. Why only captains? Could I be right in thinking that the vast majority of attendees at the Thursday meetings were FOs, keen not to ruffle any feathers that might need to remain smooth with selection for upgrade in mind?

If the message to be imparted is so important that the conference is to be made compulsory, two questions immediately come to mind:

(1) Are we to be told something the FOs should not be privy to? The implications, if that's even halfway true, are mind-boggling and more than a little worrying in this day of CRM and Transcockpit Authority Gradients, particularly if it's some instruction regarding watching the FOs more closely.

and

(2) What in the world were they thinking when they came out with the no transport idea? 30 pilots per meeting? Put on a single bus. The downside to that idea (from management's perspective, at least), might be that getting 30 (I can guarantee you) - disaffected captains together in a crowded bus before a compulsory duty they're quite obviously not going to be paid for might result in a little more "bonding" than management might prefer.

From the pilots' perspective, it would be a real novelty - actually seeing a few work colleagues, a near impossibility in the new "keep 'em separated at all costs" COC.

[Fearless Leader]

"Not sure where it's being held but presumably the meeting's at the COC. Apparently it's two hours long which is short enough for them to simply bombard us with financial performance bull**** and other woes but not long enough for all the group to have a go at unloading their concerns. Oh and best of all, they'll get a least 5 dirhams out of everyone for parking!! Jesus Christ are they THAT desperate for cash????? "
OK Mullah, I love a good rant as well as the next guy.....But the meeting will be at the Training College Auditorium. Not in the New EGHQ

You don't have to pay there yet.

[GMDS]

One reason for the late notice might be late directives from above to hold such a brainwash. As it transpires, the 407 voice recorder revealed some blunt front line feelings about management that somewhat “surprised his Highness”, apart from the Aussies.
We might get an Abu Gurair briefing.

[alwayzinit]

May I suggest:

taxi
civvies


then beer at the IR?

Then the whole day is not "wasted":ok:

[Craic Ore]

If such is the case, it could be a good turn of events from the recent deterioration of our work conditions and life in Dubai. Something eventually must come out to uncover the failings subsurface within the company. Hopefully this event is all it takes before we sink deeper into the quagmire.

I can dream, can't I.........

CO

[schismatic]

My feelings are that management are using an undoubtably difficult time to bring in much desired cost cutting measures that once invoked will never be removed when the situation improves. They are capitalising on a bad set of circumstances rather than managing them for the long term.

I have no problem with putting my nose to the grindstone as required but it would appear that some of the latest changes in T&C's are not entirely necessary, badly thought out and reactionary. All with a view to appear to be taking decisive measures and being indispensible.

Most of these measures might look sensible in the short term but are fraught with long term implications.

Take for instance the increase in productivity threshold. Appropriate in regards to long range flights but totally inappropriate if a roster does not contain LR flights. In fact the letter that justifies these actions says exactly that: Prior to the LR flights, the productivity was appropriate but with more LR flights it is not.

How simplistic to simply then raise the threshold across the board! What if the roster contains no LR flights? By their own definition the productivity threshold is not appropriate.

They could have dealt with a number of rostering issues by addressing this correctly but took a short term view by making a sweeping change that looks good on a spreadsheet but is doubtless going to increase the incidences of serious fatigue and associated pilot error.

Is it co-incidence that some very public errors have been made since this rule was introduced? Call it fatigue, destruction of moral, angst at job security or whatever you want but the ASR's will increase and ultimately a serious incident or accident is inevitable.

"Bad things happen in Bear Markets"

There is little recognition for the difficulties employees are facing outside their employment. Dubai is a miserable place at the moment and many pilots are distracted by events around them and affecting them. Couple this with the constant whittling away by the management and psychological impact is huge. Despite our best intentions and professionalism we are all human.

Management would do well to view the situation as a whole, not an opportunity to push personal agendas of cost cutting to curry favour and remain employed.

We need sensible discussion, sensible decisions, and strong hands. Unlike the rest of Dubai, aviation cannot be reduced to the level driving the hardest bargain.

Historically this has often turned out to be too bitter for anyone's taste.

[Khaosai]

Hi,

they should have put the option to attend the meeting on the CRS bid.

Morale is a threat to flight safety, hopefully it will be addressed and well received by those that decide to attend.

[5star]

Wouldn't surprise me indeed.
You know the thing is, we were soo damn close to the biggest disaster in years and all they can come up with in the first place is to push the crews into resignation. Pathetic. I think this tea&biscuits thing is a farce to polish up their image to the outside world.

Gents : don't forget to take your hats and ties. :yuk:

[donpizmeov]

I seem to remember TCK being frog marched out of the building after the JNB incident. Perhaps TCAS and Ed are being proactive, and trying to get a good price for their cars etc before they too are dissmissed. :E Should we be running a book on this? Who will go and when?

If its yet another paycut, couldnt they just give us another laminated card stating how and when we should bend over?

Don

[vbrules]

The first sentence in this section states:
"Transport is provided for all duties undertaken by crewmembers".

[4PW's]

Think tactically.

Gather in groups before the meeting.

Lay out your plans.

Write out what the pilot group considers as needing attention.

Decide who will speak for what.

Given you must go to the briefing, turn the inevitable to your advantage.

Good luck.

[sandfrog]

Think tactically.

Gather in groups before the meeting.

Lay out your plans.

AND GO TO IRISH VILLAGE!!

30+ not showing up sends the strongest message!:}

[Fart Master]

Turn up, find the sign in sheet, sign, then go for a piss for the rest of the day.

Or,

Just press 2, it's not like someone else has to do your duty :ok:

I for one will be calling transport for a car. We only have 1 car and if the boss is working, I sure as sh*t won't be paying for a taxi. The company want us to follow the rules, so they can as well by providing transport, it's part of the package.

[goatherd]

Does'nt this feel like 2004 all over again? Nearly lost an aeroplane, management floundering around, morale nosediving etc etc. The best we can hope for is Long Range Ed getting a pink slip and then in few years the cycle will repeat itself!:sad:

[donpizmeov]

We took a pay cut in 2004 as well. The more things change the more they stay the same. :ugh:

Anyone appplying for Eds Job? Aviation/geograhic/man management experience not require.

Don

[dofus]

Looks like the fun and games is starting earlier than May. I've just been rostered to attend a 'MB1' tomorrow morning at short notice whilst on reserve. What to do ?? - Open another bottle of wine !

[pool]

dofus

please, please, please give us a short heads-up by tomorrow!!!
It will show the rest of us if it's worth the hassle or pulling the sickie.


Many thanks

[White Knight]

Wheels management off looks the falling like are... (Todays' word challenge)

[ratpoison]

Open another bottle of wine !
Hey White, how many have you actually opened with dofus?? :p

[Instant Hooligan]

The off wheels looks like management are falling...??? I don't know.... Give up!!!

[Paradise Lost]

Some people are so dumb........................

"Wheels are like falling off the management looks........"

I think

[Volverine]

So guys lets review your duty for tomorow.
Conference time MB1 from 10 to 12 AM.
Uniform plus hat
Own car or taxi, with your own car remember to pay your parking fees because more than 2 hours... Anyway it's gonna cost you.
13 PM debrieffing on PPRUNE, to share with your colleagues.
I'm so envious, have fun guys !:ok:
Just want to know how many no show

[dofus]

In response to Pools request a quick summary of todays MB1 meeting .

Approximately 12 line captains attended ( 1 no show to my knowledge ). DSVP/ SVP training / SVP Fleet / Chief training Capt A330/340 / Chief Pilot 777 all in attendance.

Attendance register taken .

DSVP opened the proceedings in an informal manner setting the tone for what was actually after a period of time a refreshingly open and frank two way exchange of information and views. The first hr or so was basically a lecture to the pilots of why the management now feels the need to meet all Captains on a personal level over the next 6 weeks. The senior management have cleared their diaries to achieve this goal. They make it clear from the outset that the meeting is NOT as a result of the MEL incident but as a result of numerous incidents over the past few months both operationally and downroute. Four of five examples were provided with many more apparently available . ( Mel tailscrape / recent 777 go around in MAN / Crew behaviour in KUL/ BKK Alcohol test failure ) were used. A short video clip of the MEL tailscape is shown clearly showing the aircraft tail striking the ground 3 times before leaving the paved surface. DSVP was also in receipt of the first draft of the ATSB report and is flying to MEL on saturday to attend a news conference ! It would appear the general view of the senior management is that there needs to be an immediate change in attitude and performance of a very small minority of line pilots who are letting down the rest of the pilots. The only way to help identify this minority of guys is to ' Carpet bomb ' the entire pilot workforce with a zero tolerance approach to most aspects of our day to day working life from our appearance infront of pax to the following and adhearance of sop's in an attempt to help identify the guys who aren't coming up to scratch. SVP training identified some changes which will soon be coming in . On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills . He also emphasized the reasoning behind changing the format of the current PPC and changes to Peleysis. SVP fleet talked about the conduct of crew downroute and levels of behaviour which are expected. Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.

In the second hr the floor was opened up to the guys to offer their views and possible suggestions on what had just been talked about. Frank views and opinions were exchanged on many issues including the perceived lack of management support with regard to Housing and personal issues / rostering issues / general lack of moral on the line and training standards of new F/O's . The management listened to the views of the guys and although they offered a difference of opinion regarding some issues I honestly think some things were taken on board and will be followed up.

The final 10 minutes or so was used by DSVP to summerise what the company is doing in response to the MEL incident ( setting up working parties to look into Augmented Ops / SOP changes for example) which they openly admit has been a big wake up call for them and to basically to tell the guys to get our acts together,act professionally at all times and follow SOP's !

In summary it is obvious to me that the Senior Flight Ops management are feeling the heat and are under intense pressure to explain a string of recent incidents which the President is not happy about. These meetings are designed to address many issues which the Flight Ops management feel can no longer be tolerated. The first hr of the meeting is a lecture from the Managenent, the second hr was definately an opportunity to air some current frustrations and discuss them in an honest and frank mannor. We were the first group of guys to be addressed and definately the "guinea pigs". Expect a slicker presentation as time goes by from the Management but at least they did present a small window of opportunity to address current issues which we are unhappy with .

Thats it folks - I've tried to keep it fairly neutral . Make your own minds up . Off to the pub to watch the footy !

[pool]

Thanks dofus.
Sounds fair.

[Volverine]

Thanks Dofus :ok:

[whossorrynow]

Thanks dofus. You might want to start thinking now about what you'll say to Ed and Al when they work out which of the twelve Commanders at the MB1 meeting is you.

It's happened before. The delete button might be your friend.

[L1011]

Did they actually say
On the spot unrostered line checks up to 2 months before your datum is up and a once year one hr MANUAL sim session flown without any automatics to improve general flying skills .

Back in school eh? The prefects will ambush you and hand out detentions.

Love the comment Chief pilot 777 touched on 'personal skills' required to be a good Capt.
:}

[Fubaliera]

People now days will say anything to keep thier jobs

[5star]

Thanks Dofus. Great stuff.
Listening to the comments by most FCM in recent weeks, most of us are very very upset. Not only with the changes itself, but also the WAY they did it. Lots of unrepairable damage has been done.

After reading Dofus meeting notes, I don't know if they got the message. We will see the coming months how they try to polish up their image. The start is definately -again- not a good one. If part of the overall problem are the FO's then they could at least invite them as well.
Typical for EK's OPS management style : only half thinking before acting. :=

Another one: "Zero tollerance". Let's call it the Al Baker way. A big bunch of us would never want to fly for QR. :=

I hope for EK the aviation industry does not pick up too fast. The exodus might just be too big to handle...

[Fubaliera]

Gentleman, the way things are changing at Qr for the good, monthly bidding, etc etc and going downhill at EK, maybe EK management is trying to copy some of QR pratices in order to not become the new Gulf Air of the region. Before you critize QR ,you should look at yourselves

[Volverine]

Why the F/O should have a looooooowwwww morale ?
Only because of :
# Delayed upgrade
# Flying with high profile DECs (sometime only)
# Less 15 % salary average
# Less days OFF per month
# No way to commute due to rostering new restrictions
# Long term temporary accomodation (Yes it's possible)
# No way to escape from company accomodation because no more utilities allowance
# Documentation dispatch to handle after flight
# Not invited to meetings :oh: (joking)
What should be your morale after that ?:*
Good, you have a job :ok: Still...

[S.F.L.Y]

Good, you have a job http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

And still a good one...

[Bring Back The Biff]

For those searching for things to discuss with management in no particular order of priority!

1. The worrying trend towards removing cash meal allowances on layovers and replacing them with ill-timed, room-service-less 'all inclusive packages'.

2. The knee jerk reaction to the MEL incident calling for the pilots to 'act more professionally' when the culpability clearly begins with management.

3. That management would be well advised to study carefully the article they published on the FOIP by Robert Scott - all of it applies to EK, particularly those paragraphs regarding management.

4. That eventually management are going to have to wake up and make some positive, pro-active changes or there will be more high profile incidents - which won't be easily solved by summarily firing those at the front of the aircraft.

And difficult as it may be, try not to yell at them while getting the message across. But then again...

[fatbus]

One thing this thread could be used for is for FO's to bring up points that could help insure that that second hour of the meetings are used effectively, IE don't waste time asking the same ? every meeting

[fliion]

Gents,

If we are going to be discussing morale with mgt - lets make sure we know how to spell it M-O-R-A-L-E.

Back to topic:

I dont know how many times I have heard it said by pilots here in the past and now perhaps its happened: "...its only a matter of time before fatigue causes an accident/incident..."

24 hr layovers in GRU & NYC - not enough.

Two man crew to PEK - not enough...etc, etc.

The mistakes may not happen on said pairing - but cumulatively it will eventually catch up.

f.

[Modesh09]

For the Captains going in to try and deal with the EK thiefs , could you ask/deal with the matter on our allowences . The new trend that they now try to implement is that you will not get a cent on the layover but eat in the hotel. HKG, LOS already in place and I tell you its a mess.LOS the allocated restaurant the food is below standard and it takes forever to come to the table , 2 hrs after a long duty ! HKG you have to eat in restaurant and no room service , The crew was so tired , missed , breakfast and lunch and ended up not having anything to eat on the layover as the places where closed when the crew where awake.
So you have to break your rest to eat at the hotel times !!!

What next , do they want us to crash planes , its as if they are doing their best to keep us tired with low morale.

[oz in dxb]

Modesh09, if all of these that you have mentioned happened on your flights,
did you not file an ASR? Judging by what is happening crew not being able to eat when the hotel wants us to and not being able to have room service IS in need of an ASR.

Safety standards have been reduced by not allowing crew to eat when and where they need to.

By the way F/Os are allowed to file an ASR as well!

Oz

[Bring Back The Biff]

I get it!

They are trying to fire all the pilots to save money.

Genius Adel, genius...:ugh:

[casio man]

Have the MAN guys been asked to "resign" too?:eek:

[bone]

'Oz in dxb' is spot on.Dictating when and where to eat is unacceptable especially considering that your entire crew could have done a ULR,night turnarounds in a row etc... just 2 days before operating to LOS or HKG with their body clock still in a spin.ASRs with strong emphasis on the fatigue issue may eventually get the GCAA's attention,but will probably take a while like in the previous MRU ( 17 hr ) layover case.Alternatively,falling asleep while eating in the restaurant,getting your ear skewered by your fork or burnt by hot coffee resulting in outstation medical costs or unfit to fly will probably get their attention too :ok:

[Marooned]

Somehow through these 'conferences' I hope that the message finally gets through, and strong enough to get past TCAS and AAR, that the way we are being managed is not effective and complicit in any incidents we have.

It is a matter of perspective;

From our point of view (the ones on the line doing the job, rostered to the max, with numerous changes from FCI to FCN to FTN, on such a diverse network dealing with many different cultures, dealing with a multitude of different approaches ILS,NPA,Circling,PRM,SAAAR, on SR, LR and ULR flights), that somehow our skill, experience, CRM etc has managed to keep things as safe as they can possibly be.

From the management point of view (who do not currently fly, have never flown our type of operations to as many places so frequently with such a diverse compliment of crew) 'they' cannot understand why we hold them in such low esteem and they do not understand why serious incidents are continuing to happen.

And their reaction to these incidents? More of the same; more control, more 'training', more micromanaging interference leading to even more pressure on the line demanding more from our ability to cope.

To resolve this negative model from spiraling even further down into the hole that we all must work together to prevent, management have to look at the fundamental problems of the way they manage. This has to go above TCAS and AAR. They are the the ones responsible for the current situation and are the ones preventing any real effective change from taking place. They are either keeping a lid on the problems to save their own a*ses or unable to deal with those above them, those who are the only ones who can actually make change happen.

TCAS and AAR are responsible in my opinion for setting the current low tone of management. They are the face, two faces of management we have. But whilst they are responsible we alone will be held to account when things go wrong.

I hope something positive comes from these conferences but, as in previous meetings, we should be prepared to keep our expectations low as the disappointment is usually high.

[Wiley]

Anyone who was there care to give us his recollections of the "lions and goats" speech?

[lowstandard]

Is anyone going to ask about Honest E's "Sooper dooper git-r-dun ppc/trainin(checkin) 2 or 1 day special!" ? If they are serious about training, then do it, dont shove Penesys up our gritter's and use that as an excuse.

How about Honest E's 12 day off monthly specials.... I would just like to hear him explain how you combine productivity( ulr hrs) with number of days off without fingering the crs system.

Just be honest and tell us to our face that the slight discomfort we feel is your fist. I am bringing tea and biscuits!

[beachflt]

I do not fly for Emireates but have friends who do and am worried by their concerns regarding fatigue and morale issues within the airline. I had respect for AS in his previous life with big airways , he was approachable and read the gospel of openness and learning from others mistakes, I am sorry to say it appears he has become just a yes man to those in real power who do not know the front from the back end of an aircraft.

The strict adherence to SOP's appears to be the invitation and opportunity the guys have been awaiting for a work to rule. Why would anyone extend ,when at the end of a long extended duty you might make a fatigue enduced error which will end in your sacking? why taxy above walking speed ? etc , basically why not make yourself fireproof. It's a frustrating way to operate but appears to me to be the only weapon available to you

Perhaps as schedules slip they may realise that the big stick dosen't always work and dish out a few carrots

[parabellum]

On tonights Channel Nine news here in Victoria the editor of the Sunday Herald, (tabloid) said they were going to reveal all about the A340 tail scrape tomorrow as the captain had told them he had had no proper rest in the preceeding 24 hours. If it is just a comment the skipper made in passing then there won't be much more but if he has sold them a story about Emirates it could be interesting.

[Panther 88]

Parabellum,
We hope you will report back on the content of the segment. You see, it has been so easy (thus far) for EK to "fix" the problem. "We got rid of our "bad" pilots, and obviously the captain wasn't excersizing his command authority by flying fatigued. It states plainly in our FOM.....blah, blah, blah" See problem solved and in fact more SOPs so "bad" pilots can be forced into our little box.

And remember our little briefing packages...."Captain, you are clearly at fault, it stated plainly on page 58 of 72 pages line 37 that (insert issue here).........You are clearly an irresponsible pilot." See once again we have fixed any problems we might have.

NEXT?:*

[parabellum]

Have a read here, it is also running in the threads in Rumours and News and on this forum too.


Emirates probed on tired pilots | Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25386322-661,00.html)

[Volverine]

WHOAAAAAAAAW !
Nothing to add.
Everything is in the public news now.
Best warning signal EVER !

[4HolerPoler]

Reasonably factual except for the crud about the reduced thrust takeoffs - industry standard and manufacturer endorsed practice. As long as the procedure is correctly applied.

[Volverine]

You're right but,
same coment about the crew rest managment and the non punitive feedback rules,
It works if properly done ! Like everything on earth...:ok:

[Yossarian]

Unfortunately, I am really battling to see that these 'Conferences' have any real value whatsoever. I believe it is all one big ass-covering exercise on their part. They can state that it is an open forum for a frank exchange of views but I believe that is bollocks.

They are completely aware of the nature of our grievances, given that they are the cause, or at least the conduit from above. If they are not aware, then they are completely useless managers with their heads stuck firmly in the sand and no grasp of the realities faced by their staff. If they are so useless, then explaining the facts of life to them will be of no benefit, cos what are they gonna do anyway, having already shown their willingness to fire first and not bother to ask questions afterwards.

If they are not that useless, then they are aware of our grievances. Why have they not done anything about them? What good does it do to stand in front of us, pretending to listen and to give a toss? It makes them appear to be effective managers, getting to the issues. With their stated objective of ridding the company of the bad apples in the barrel, it also gives them the opportunity to identify trouble-makers in the group. The potential rabble-rousers. You will have to rely on the objectivity of these managers to decide who has a valid point and who is trying to criticize and undermine them. I don't believe they like criticism too much.

They have made it clear that the culture they wish to follow is a punitive one. Make a mistake, even an honest one, and you are gone. Now, why would anyone want to raise any issues, poke his head above the trench parapet and hope noone takes a shot?

TCAS and ED have allowed themselves to be used from above and there is no going back for them. They cannot reclaim their virginity. They have lost their moral status and, as such, are not to be trusted.

Their policies and archaic management style, forced on them from above, have led us to where we are now. They are now frantically shovelling the crap downhill, hoping that as little as possible will stick to them. Explaining to them what the problem is, is a complete waste of time. They know. What they're actually going to do about it is another matter.

We must never forget that their interests and ours are very different. They have had their careers and are topping up the retirement fund with a lucrative little pre-retirement gig. Every year they manage to hang onto their positions earns them a nice bonus. So they do it, whatever the cost. But if they lose their jobs, they lose a couple more years of bonuses and maybe that second beach house they have their eye on. Many of us were here for the career. Potentially for decades. If we are fired now, under the draconian zero tolerance polices, we will probably battle to find another flying job. It could mean decades of lost earnings and an enforced career change. Who has the most at stake? And who should be standing up for what is right?

[Mr Mugabe]

I heard that 5 EK Captains had a meeting with Shk Ahmed about the lack of communication between the pilots and management. This would explain a lot, can anyone confirm?

[gotoindia]

Gents,

I'm not a Captain at EK, but maybe someone who is can ask the above question at their meeting.

Illness
Medication
Stress
Alcohol
Fatigue
Emotion

If a safe operation is the top priority, then why is the flight operations culture causing an increase in the above? As evidenced by the increase in serious operational errors, failed sobriety tests, attempts to limit sick calls, rumours of 11 recent sackings, minimum days off leading to chronic long term fatigue, etc. etc.

Any answers would be appreciated.

[mensaboy]

I've never come across that IMSAFE thing before but it seems spot on.

This is what should concern us most about our present operations. All the factors (too many to list) which are negatively contributing to each of the IMSAFE criteria have actually been exacerbated by management's response to recent events. Awareness of the symptoms is a good thing, but even then we are kept in the dark and we have to rely on rumour and speculation to try to determine the causes of each event and quite frankly none of the events have been fully explained as of yet.

Sadly the underlying problems are not being addressed and in fact these problem areas are becoming worse by the day.

It is the 'perfect storm' of flight safety issues. Fatigue, concern about careers and even some concern about the viability of EK, few options for other jobs which precludes people most negatively affected from removing themselves from the airline/city/management that is causing the grief and last but not least.... management who has not only caused most of the problems but who are now aggravating the situation.

If a company pushes way too far on occasion or if they demand a higher than acceptable tolerance of stupid policies such as crew rest, rosters, or lack of days off over a longer period of time, then it is a foregone conclusion that performance will decline. A little stress can be good but big stress or long lasting medium stress will inevitably cause human beings to do things they would otherwise not do.

It is fitting that human fatigue is called FATIGUE, because quite often the causes would have little affect if they were not present for long periods of time. Metal fatigue and human fatigue are similar; if you repeatedly bend a wire it will eventually break.... but up until the point it breaks, it might go unnoticed. Bend a human being too many times and he might seem fine until the point he breaks too. Minor or major errors in judgement, sickness, higher than normal alcohol intake, or irritability and disagreeability demonstrated by human beings are often symptoms.

The LAST thing that should be done, is to increase the stressors by firing people for an error in judgement, for which they had no previous history of making.

I wonder if the Gulf Air guys are wondering if EK is headed down the same path they followed years ago. Perhaps the similarities are not valid, but it makes me wonder.

[twieke]

Any news on this front?

[GMDS]

Hey SS

What use is any firepower against scarecrows? They're only made of straw, burn a second, then are gone without a trace. A waist of ammunition.
Go there as a zombie, everything's been asked and whisked away, nothing more than on these pages, so sleep well, as I did.

:zzz:

[tornspar]

Its just a way to see how the new car park works

[EGGW]

Don't think so Tornspar, meetings held in old Aeroplane building.

Some of the meeting was confidential, and fair enough on that front. What TCAS said in his presentation made a lot of sense, apparently he doesn't read Pprune though, sure Alan, sure.... Like the time you asked a buddy of mine if he was a certain poster...

I think they have a lot of limitations from above like we all know, but ask questions, lots did in the meeting I attended. Some meetings have been quite lively apparently :E:E

EGGW

[jinglied]

..Maybe they're taking notes on the attendees. Those that make too much noise get the Cathay treatment. I would not be surprised with anything this management did from here on in. What would it matter to them if 20, 30, or 49 guys were given walking papers? They could defend it...."Behaviour inconsistent with an Emirates Captain"...

Sit down, shut up, and leave those pric.ks alone in their little hole.

Jinglie'd

[Watchdog]

actually, I thought it was a worthwhile couple of hours. The presenters seemed to lay the cards on the table (albiet keeping some aces hidden) and appeared genuinely receptive to our comments. No one was taking notes about anybody (I looked for the hidden camera too) :=

Times are tough though....no tea and bikkies afterward! :{

[nolimitholdem]

Give 'em hell SS! I think jinglied is simply expressing a (rightfully) cynical point of view, not advocating burying the head. I'm all for going down fighting...but these cowards don't operate by conventional rules. It's all about sneaky, ass-covering, hiding behind carefully timed and worded memos and emails and FCI's and unreturned calls and deflected responsibility. That's why morale is in the toilet and there is zero respect for the "leaders"...they aren't leading, they're panicking. The current economic climate is exposing their true lack of leadership ability and like something that lives under a rock that's been lifted they're scuttling about to avoid getting the boot heel. (Laminated "Uniform Standards" card, anyone?!) It's both astonishing and painful to observe.

Meanwhile the troops soldier on, taking casualties while those in higher ranks blithely escape any sort of accountability. Thus was it ever in any army.

I think my favourite "soundbite" from one of these meetings was when TCAS was asked "So when are YOU going to get sacked?". He didn't answer.

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

When is someone going to do us all a huge favor and sack that old talking horse/Overpaid secretary? I and so many others are so sick of all his h.s. It will do wonders for the morale around here!

[Panther 88]

Ah, Mr. Easy, be careful what you wish. In the case around here, the devil you know and all that......I can think of a number of individuals around here that seem to be waiting in the wings, and from my perspective, I will take the end of the talking horse that is speaking to another individual that could be the other end of the horse that "stuff" is emitting. He is at the end of his career and has nothing more to prove, whereas do you really want someone in there that is "career building". And how does one career build when trying to please those that are in charge of one's career in flt. ops.? Think about it for a minute.

[wizard1]

It is wrong to focus on TCAS and the Horse as the source of our woes. They are hardly empowered to do anything. The real rotten apple in the cart is AAR. An almost criminal lack of knowledge combined with a vengeful and infantile attitude have resulted in a micromanagerial style that beggars belief. I know for a fact that he was personally on the phone to the engineer that grounded EDA (A380) when the bridge dropped on to it within minutes and the content of that call was typical of the nonsense that goes on. The max 12 days off rule came directly from him as a result of not being able to crew 2 short notice ad hoc charters. Never one to consider that by totally disrupting the schedulers work pattern (6 x 8 hrs instead of 4 x 12 hrs) he might have removed motivation of said scheduling crew the easiest solution is to apply a blanket rule to all us 2300 lazy pilots. etc etc etc Unless he goes there is no hope whatsoever of regaining any sort of trust between the management and flightcrew. There goes a flying pig (swine flew!)

[EK_Bus Driver]

Wizard you are 100% correct. :ok:

The other day A.A.R. actually graced us with his presence towards the end of the meeting and muttered something largely un intelligible and completely undid any good that TCAS, E.D. and M.M. might have achieved in 1 hour and 40 minutes (only took him about 1 minute to do so) but along the lines of:

“guys, you are here to work, why I should let you live in UK or US or Australia. If a guy wants the time and says give me this day and that day, and give me this trip and that one, why I should give?” :eek:

...and then proceeded to lose us completely in some other rant about time and company cost/expense?? :ugh: However, the cringing and the obvious body language that TCAS displayed were absolutely PRICELESS! Almost worth while attending. Everyone was watching TCAS not listening to “Idle”. :D

I would have to disagree on the point that was made earlier about the efficacy of the meeting. Some relevant and well structured questions were asked by most of the attendees, TCAS said in his opening address that he wants us to “work with him” but both he and E.D. dismissed F.D.L. / Fatigue and Morale issues quite vigorously. It was quite obvious they are in complete DENIAL (probably directed from above?). After that the questions dried up and the rest of the meeting was a lecture, the main point we all took home was; that we are over stocked with Pilots and the “Zero tolerance policy is in effect”.

Safe Flying to all.

Nothing will change until the “Idle” factor is removed. :mad:

[Fart Master]

2 very good posts that I think sum up the flt ops mis-management situation in a nutshell.

Al Retard is definately the root of the problem, but the spineless pratts below him do nothing to alleviate the situation.

I heard recently that one of the Capt. complained to Ed the Donkey about there being no water at DSO for two days, the reply he got was "I don't give a sh*t".

They are all part of the same error chain.

[145qrh]

Yup , sat there like at a nodding dog during the one I attended too, shame was looking forward to him place both feet in his mouth at the same time,

MM is bit of a gob**ite, talks a good game, bigs himself up a plenty...

At least they announced that all the f/o's will be summoned soon, share the pain indeed..

[RFusmoke]

Commanders conf.......how to be a Capt in ek........

"Remember all that stuff we thought you about crm?forget it your no good at it..... be nasty again like I am now and like it used to be in the old company.....what are they called again.... oh yes The Bird Seed " .........so now show leadership as it hasnt been shown before....... all this from listening to guys talking about Churchill to Tiger Woods.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously a couple of things shone out and are worth taking note of.All of the mentioned incidents allegedly happened over the last 6 weeks by now.

Q s Was the alleged Rape/sexual assault in KL confirmed in any way or was it just as MM said/will say.ie~ "I am very very angry about what had happened" But no one asked was it confirmed just that the guy was GONe......?And if it was confirmed what is the legal situation on this case ????? there was no mention of the word allegedly.......(except by me)


I m not trying to be controversial But was there a investigation by Police and Company before they let this guy go or was there an investigation medically or otherwise on CC involved??
Q What happened to the guys in Manc and Mel???were they fired/resigned/let go??

A We know but let them skirm while not telling you

Q You guys have not mentioned Fatigue or being tired in any of these incidents...do you believe this to be the case?

A more slipping.

Like Air bus driver there were very valid points brought up but none were answered....there is no fatigue in EK .....and we are lucky to be living and working in Dubai...AAR you really are not connected!!!!

[mensaboy]

The Commanders Conference. (CC)

Apologies for the length but this is my overview and 'personal' opinion of the CC.

First off, the participants. MM from the training department might just have a positive affect on training and hence flight safety. TCAS is more intelligent than most people give him credit for, yet he obviously slanted his arguments and opinions to fit into the rational of his superiors. AAR has convoluted and illogical thought processes and he could potentially bring down this airline. We should all have an appreciation for how difficult it must be to deal with him on a daily basis partly because he views all EK employees as subservient and lucky to be in Dubai.

Ed is stuck between a rock and a hard place and he is not equipped to effectively deal with things. He was programmed to intercede whenever certain aspects of the operation were mentioned, but his reponses turned into mini-speeches with no relevance. He appeared more concerned about being a dutiful employee to HIS bosses sitting around the table, than actually formulating a coherent and relevant answer.

Overall the CC was eye-opening. There was an overiding theme about how commanders must take a more proactive role in leadership, take responsibility and not only PERFORM accordingly but be PERCEIVED in such a manner. TCAS effectively communicated these areas of concern and it was well received by the pilots in attendance. The pilots acknowledged certain recent errors in judgement but management refused to take ANY responsibility for policies and practices which might contribute to someone momentarily performing below their normal standard.

TCAS went to great lengths expressing how this profession is one of the best in the world and much is expected from us, but none of the managers accepted the logic that massive deteriorations in job conditions COULD have a detrimental affect on a pilot. On the one hand they agreed that a pilot undergoing certain stresses should not be commanding an aircraft, yet other stresses such as max off days, accomodations, overtime, fatigue and especially rostering practices, are not a part of an EK pilot's life; therefore they cannot be a casual factor. Anything which might be detrimental to a pilot's performance ( if caused by mismanagement) should be overcome by our high level of professionalism.

1) No policy or practice at EK is detrimental to pilots.
2) we should consider the plight of other pilots around the world and be thankful to have this job.

Up to a point they argued that morale at EK was fine but after a few more pointed questions and comments, they seemed to acknowledge the 'frame of mind' of the pilot group. This is what brought about their argument that professional pilots should be able to overcome these problems and perform our duties at a high level, regardless of stresses caused by the company.

What they would not consider, is that none of the recent flying errors, were willfull or typical of the pilot's normal standard of performance. In other words, those guys thought they were doing their best but they screwed up for some reason. Not following SOP's was a theme and likely a contributor to some errors in judgement, which is a fair assessment. But it was so obvious that blame was placed on the pilots in every single one of their 5 examples, before even the facts were determined.
What of the underlying causes, even if mistakes were made? Morale, fatigue and idiotic rostering practices were taboo subjects, especially if someone questioned if there was a LINK to recent events. Ed jumped in at the mere mention of these topics, which was comical after a while. These potential causes are being ignored because it directly involves delving into management practices, which clearly they are unwilling to do. Discussion of these factors was cut short which made it clear they are not considering them as casual factors. They have come up with an alternative explanation.

TCAS and M attribute the recent spat of misjudgements to the years that EK has gone without an accident. They expressed how it is common for an airline with a good safety record to go thru a period of complacency.... hence the CC's were arranged to prevent a major mishap by addressing the issue now. They acknowledged that EK got lucky in Melbourne and it should be a wake-up call to the pilot group. (not to management though) The CC would have been a hell of alot more effective if they took a good look in the mirror and acknowledged their role in recent events. Somehow, the Johanessburg accident has been selectively removed from the conscience of management (probably because it was not BIG NEWS, like the Melbourne accident.) Management did not address issues behind poor judgement, such as fatigue, continual erosion of T&C's and rostering practices because it points the finger directly at them.

Our management team has selected two explanations for recent events
1- a good safety record resulting in complacency and
2- a lack of professionalism on the part of some pilots.
There might be some truth to the above but rarely have I witnessed such blatant ass-covering, which was revealed by their refusal to even consider other possibilities, especially if it reflected poorly on them.

The CC should be the beginning of an introspective look at the operation, not just a momentary tool to reduce the occurence of more 'events' .

What needs to be fixed is the overall sustainable level of pilot performance. Our managers demand each pilot's daily standard to remain high but they are unwilling to provide the environment to achieve this goal. The 2 areas that the CC addressed were improvements in training and the professionalism that pilots exercise on a daily basis. The one area that was not addressed, even though it is the most concerning, is T&C's/Fatigue/Rostering because it affects every aspect of a pilots life and therefore it must have an effect on a person's professional life. Unfortunately-- and predictably-- this last area is not even being considered, which was made abundantly clear by the 4 managers declaring that these issues are not even a concern.

Our managers should be able to understand there are issues which preclude all pilots from sustaining a high level of professionalism on each and every flight. Unfortunately, they refuse to acknowledge the reality and it makes you wonder why? Have they honestly convinced themselves that the pilots just need is a good kick in the pants? Or are they under such intense pressure from above, that they are willing to roll the dice and make some short term changes for the better... but no long term changes to the areas of most concern? If you see AAR in action, you will understand how difficult things are for these guys. It still does not excuse them ignoring possible causal factors simply because their boss refuses to accept reality.

The hidden principle is to give the perception of positive changes but not to make any substantive change if it costs money.

EK's management is now at a cross-roads and they have unfortunately chosen the same path taken by most companies and the government of Dubai. Schmooze things over, place all of the blame on subordinates and most importantly, give the PERCEPTION that issues are being addressed. The truth is, nothing is being done to fix problems if it hints at responsibility being placed on management or it costs money. It is a thin veneer, when scratched will reveal the systemic and underlying problems.

As a pilot group we can accept full responsibility for recent events and hope for the best in the future, or we can accept partial responsibility and continue to voice our concerns to management. After the CC, it was obvious that no manager is willing to, or perhaps even capable of, hearing and then understanding any issue which might reflect poorly on them. The explanation of the 'max days off' policy was the perfect example of why every single concern expressed by pilots, will never be considered.

TCAS went to great lengths explaining the importance of our professionalism and leadership, but by the end of the 2 hours it was disheartening to listen to them blame everything on the pilot group. I bet each and every pilot who got fired, demoted or is now under 'investigation' for some indiscretion, believed they were immune to the effects of having management who have no regard for our well-being, but after the CC it is more likely that most of us now feel differently. Recent events should have enlightened us but the CC definitely proved we are all at risk. Our managers displayed a contempt for pilots, even though they did their best to hide that truth. No doubt this attitude originates from one individual. Contrary to managements belief, the only thing holding this operation together, IS the pilot group.

The theme of the CC was......... we need you pilots, you are vital to the operation, everything hinges on your professionalism........ but we will do nothing to help you in those endeavours. So stop bringing up issues relevant to your performance, get back to work and be thankful that Dubai and EK have been so gracious to accomodate you.

There was some good information passed on but overall it was extremely disappointing. At least now, we should all realize exactly where we stand.

[Saltaire]

My experience and account would be very similar to Mensa, a very good and accurate post. Working with AAR would be an exercise in frustration and disbelief. I heard him rant once during a visit to the office while some poor indian secretary tried to dictate his "letter". To a degree, i sympathize with TCAS, ED and M, trying to do their jobs effectively but are handicapped from above.

[Panther 88]

Mensa,
For once, you have said all there needs to be said. Excellent recap of what every meeting has been like (from different sources). No one could explain it and analyse it more accurately than the above.:D And to you Fart Master, if you think that story rings of any truth and you believe it, you're moniker really does fit you nicely. Even if any manager was thinking that, it would never be said, especially in public.

[Thylakoid]

TheStar.com | World | Co-pilot in Buffalo crash earned $16,254 a year (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/634135)

[RFusmoke]

Thanks for the info EkL and also to Mensaboy for a well structured synopsis....

Guys pls look at posts 101 from me and 103 from EkLawyer.....

Can anyone who has been at the meeting or who is going,speak up on this one and find out if this is the case ?????I was dumbfounded at the meeting in the way MM was so categorical in his lack of support for this Flightcrew and his guilty before proven attitude that it only struck me that evening while dissecting the whole "experience" over a bevvy...I was also while in the meeting trying to get the spineless to admit that they might have something to do with these incidents !!!!!!

If it s came up previously or if you get to stop them on this point and attempt to extract the info pls do let us know .

Thanks

[Fart Master]

Actually Panther, without giving too much away, I know it happened, and it wasn't said in public, it was said in private to one of the pilots

Bit confused about the moniker bit..... fart master.....mr ed...comments made.... nope, still don't get it

[5star]

Mens. and RF, thanks for sharing. :ok:

This whole thing makes me think of GF management and the way they handled the aftermath of their A320 crash. It took them a few years to change from fear-approach to real people-management approach. Things are much better now I hear at GF but unfortunately they have a more concerning problem in another area : they miss EK's commercial brains.

As in GF, Ek's way of handling this mini-crisis it is a culture thing and a few high shots (mostly arabs) are again to blame. Give them a couple of years and they will learn from their mistakes....

Fly safe and keep those head down. There is not a lot we can do...

[prideflyer]

anymore in Dubailand! Show is over, boys, grab your last coins and jump ship this crap before it's too late!

[helen-damnation]

Don't let the door hit you on the arse on your way out
:D:ok:

jump ship
Which implies you have another ship to go to that isn't sinking.

Please enlighten us :rolleyes:

[Philly Boy]

"AAR says the pilots are lucky and privileged to be in Dubai...."

HA!!!!
I would love to see the reaction if he said that to our wives..... :eek:

[Nil defects]

http://i610.photobucket.com/albums/tt184/Nildefects/id-1.jpg

[White Knight]

Now that is PERFECT:}:}

[RFusmoke]

Got a call from crewing at midday(on my day off).....did nt answer but out of interest called back after 10 mins to see what they wanted (and so I could have my story straight)

"we need you to go to XYZ tonight" was what I was told!!!" we are really stuck and have no one to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Sorry gotta terrible tummy bug!"

Last week while at this farce of a meeting when TCAS was questioned about tiredness/fatigue he replied that "No one could be tired as we have 130 extra pilots sharing the workload"

Maybe someone could relay this story at the meeting and ask him if there are so many guys sitting around why are the controllers calling guys to work on their days off???
LIARS!!!

[pool]

They pulled the same trick on me, but I just said no.
Apparently, if you chip in, they mark it as "volunteered", and you get no doe! THAT'S the trick. I don't blame them, but the powers above.
Looking at random day's sick list makes me laugh. More and more guys pull in their sickies. Fair enough if it's our only defense.

I think it starts sinkin' in, allthough it will take time for them to admit and make the connection with their infantile management culture.
So, don't give up, keep it up, it's your health, mental and physical.

[Panther 88]

Creful guys. The crew controlers are as beat up as we. My advice is be polite, be professional (recorded phone calls), but be firm. Funny, I have friends on reserve this month that have done next to nothing. See, I believe they want to "save" the guys on reserve for disruptions and use AD guys and guys on off days. Of course it's never the "primo" trips that they are looking to crew.

[takingover]

A friend of mine has just been to his meeting this past week. When the Manchester "event" was discussed someone asked what the situation was with the crew. Ed answered that the situation was still under review.

I'm not sure what they might be 'reviewing' exactly, but the crew were sacked some time ago & remain so. They have both had their appeals against their dismissal heard some 3 weeks ago now.

The same 'Ed' was at the appeal meetings for both the Captain & the F/O. I don't know what was said at the meeting with the Captain, but he remains terminated. The F/O was told by Ed in his meeting that there was no new infomation in his appeal documentation & the appeal was dismissed. He remains terminated & leaves Dubai later this month.

It appears that management are being somewhat "loose" with the truth & I now know that I can't believe anything that was said by management at the commanders conference I attended, or in fact anything they have said since!

Keep discovering.

[tbaylx]

Being intimately familiar with one of the cases i can assure you that not only are they being "loose" with the truth in at least one case, they are outright lying in order to make their position look better...take it all with a degree of skepticism.

[5star]

Yes they came up with a slide and a google map what actually happened. Not a big deal actually (certainly not compared to MEL).

Now the whole thing gets another dimension if you know this was a training flight for the FO. So this poor guy is SACKED during his initial training for making a mistake which should have been picked up by the trainer?
How LOW can you go EK? Maybe if your training would have been of modern airline standard this one would not have happened.

I tell you, if they would do this to me I would sue them. I hope both guys do it.

What a poor show EK. Fear will never work in the cockpit. :=
As soon as this economy picks up, I'm outta here. And I will not be the only one.