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flash8
14th Apr 2009, 16:29
Has it really been 20 years now (tomorrow). Time really moves fast. I recall hearing about it on TV and really feeling bad - a few years later as a student at the University of Liverpool I recall the banning of "the scum" was still prevalent. Trash then and trash now of course. I'll spend a minute tomorrow in silent respect.

Sprogget
14th Apr 2009, 16:40
I used to go weekly at that time. Most weeks on the big games, I thought I would come a cropper somewhere between violence, the police or a health & safety crowd problem at some 100 year old ground or other.

That was a terrible time, Bradford & heysel in 85, Hillsborough in 88. At least we got decent crowd control & for the most part, survivable stadia out of that period .

TBirdFrank
14th Apr 2009, 17:50
I remember that day well - very well!

We had the red hordes coming past the stables in droves on their way east, leering and bawling at the girls going out riding so that in the end they brought their horses in rather than face the abuse.

Four hours later very quiet, very sombre, cars started to appear over Woodhead on their way home.

I remain to be convinced that simply not getting wasted, and not trying to rush an already crowded stadium as a mob not prepared to be controlled, would have prevented this all too avoidable tragedy, and not the police who were overwhelmed as the hordes swept into Leppings Lane.

95 coffins are the memorial to the lack of discipline and self control that is even now not improving.

frostbite
14th Apr 2009, 17:58
I have not been to or even watched a football match for several decades, but I had a mate who was a fanatic and he was there.

I asked him why those people died and he simply responded, "Killed by their own kind".

Seldomfitforpurpose
14th Apr 2009, 18:13
For the innocent victims and their family and friends I will always have the deepest sympathy, but for those ticket less mindless tossers that turned up that day and murdered their fellow supporters I will only ever have the utmost contempt.

wiggy
14th Apr 2009, 18:23
Oh Boy..

And remind me again why football ( it's not soccer) will always rise above the mindless predjudiced ***p that that some have just written. If you want to be one-eyed bigots stick to golf and rugby guys....

signed

A Man Utd supporter...:sad:

Little Blue
14th Apr 2009, 18:31
I remember the day so well..
Three of us were standing in the away end of Old Trafford, watching the Rams beat Man U.
By half-time, we had heard rumours of people dying at Hillsborough, and could see the Utd fans in the stands peering into the exec boxes to look at the tv reports.
During the 2nd half, their were a few Utd fans singing songs about 'Dead scousers' but they were very quickly shouted down/sorted out.
The journey home was made in silence as we couldn't believe that so many innocents had died doing just as we had, watching their team from the terraces.
Terrible day. Terrible day.

barry lloyd
14th Apr 2009, 21:45
Frostbite

I asked him why those people died and he simply responded, "Killed by their own kind".

Would you care to explain that comment in a little more detail?

TBF

95 coffins are the memorial to the lack of discipline and self control that is even now not improving.

Re-check your figure Frank

Too Short
14th Apr 2009, 22:08
I remember it very well too. I lived in Sheffield for most of my life and lived close to Hillsborough at the time. The place had an eerie yet sad feel to it for a long time afterwards. I've been to a small handful of games there over the years since and each time I've entered the ground it's difficult not to allow even just a fleeting thought of the disaster pass one's mind. I do not mean this as a form of concern, more just an acknowledgement of it and the fact that 96 lost their lives.

The pictures taken at the time, which appeared in the local press were truly horrendous.

Sprogget
14th Apr 2009, 22:10
96, not 95.

frostbite
14th Apr 2009, 22:45
Would you care to explain that comment in a little more detail?

Can you explain what is/was in someone else's mind?

barry lloyd
15th Apr 2009, 09:08
Quote:
Would you care to explain that comment in a little more detail?

Can you explain what is/was in someone else's mind?

So why post it then?

hellsbrink
15th Apr 2009, 09:21
Would you care to explain that comment in a little more detail?

I thought it was obvious. Those who died were Liverpool fans, who were crushed by a surge of Liverpool fans into an overcrowded area and that is why that guy who was there said what he did (although we know that the police were mainly to blame by opening the gate and allowing so many people to pour into that area.)

Noah Zark.
15th Apr 2009, 09:45
That the police opened the gates is an undisputed fact. But, were they not caught between a rock and a hard place? Some Liverpool supporters had stayed outside the ground until the last possible minute drinking in the local pubs, before then scrambling to get into the ground, creating the crush, right at the back, which then transferred through to the front where there was no place left to go.
The crush was going to happen, to a greater or lesser degree, inside or outside the ground, thanks to these fans, and the police, unwittingly, got to choose where.
There must be some deeply troubled souls amongst some Liverpool supporters.
R.I.P. the innocent 96.

Sprogget
15th Apr 2009, 10:00
Like most accidents, a misnomer in itself, Hillsborough had a series of causes. The start of it could be argued to be Graham Kelly's refusal to allocate Liverpool to the other, larger end of the ground. He had been asked to by the club, but turned it down.

The commanding officer's on duty that day had no experience of football match crowd control, leading to the panicked opening of the gate. Doubtless many fans had no tickets and had been drinking, to exacerbate the situation. Point is you cannot say it was the fans' fault, or the coppers fault or the FA's fault - it was all of them to a greater or lesser degree.

Liverpool fans do not have an enviable record travelling, I note few mentions of Heysel, which for me was the most disgraceful episode in recent times, since that was caused entirely by the desire to fight the other lot on the terraces. The reason I bring this up is because as much as it is tragic that 96 Liverpool fans died, I am uncomfortable with the recent media coverage giving air time to the view that part of the open wound is perpetuated by the failures of the police. The fans have to look at themselves too in my view - LFC are no angels on the road.

TBirdFrank
15th Apr 2009, 12:03
And that was the thrust of my post above - both as to that particular day for the reasons set out, and many since - but not; most assuredly not; restricted to LFC fans

In fact, to travel on much public transport on footie days is to leave one's self open to drunken abuse, scuffles, obscene chants etc all day, from the outward - Stella on the wrist - supported journey to the drink fuelled tirade home.

This is an affront to the genuine travelling supporter and other members of the public alike.

The afternoon of the 1st of February this year when I came across around 50 police officers tooled up in full riot gear on the occasion of the Newcastle - Sunderland match is mute testimony.

I was advised to get out of town before it kicked off after the match - which it duly did at seven thirty that evening closing Newcastle station.

Is chasing a bag of wind worth all this aggro?

And as for bringing back terraces in the current atmosphere of me, me, me and no self control - it doesn't bear thinking about.

barry lloyd
15th Apr 2009, 12:10
Liverpool fans do not have an enviable record travelling, I note few mentions of Heysel, which for me was the most disgraceful episode in recent times, since that was caused entirely by the desire to fight the other lot on the terraces. The reason I bring this up is because as much as it is tragic that 96 Liverpool fans died, I am uncomfortable with the recent media coverage giving air time to the view that part of the open wound is perpetuated by the failures of the police. The fans have to look at themselves too in my view - LFC are no angels on the road.

A bit of a generalisation, as stuff written about Liverpool in general so often is, especially on here, but I take your point. What made the whole thing worse for those who were bereaved was the wholly unnecessary but well-documented lies which were printed by The Sun (and others) about what happened subsequently. Once again, stereotypes came to the fore, and once again they were proved to be incorrect.

For many years there was painted on the gable end of building as you approached East Manchester by train, 'Hillsborough - the revenge of Heysel'

I do agree though, that too much is being made of this by the media, perhaps to distract us from other events. Gordon Brown has rejected calls for another enquiry into the tragedy, and rightly so in my view. In any event, it would probably end up in a yet another whitewash, just like the de Menezes case.

Sprogget
15th Apr 2009, 12:22
I would strongly agree that the Sun behaved reprehensibly in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster, as they so often do in pursuit of their own agenda.

I have no wish to upset Liverpudlians, especially today of all days, but I write from a personal perspective having encountered the worst side of that section of the fans repeatedly from my own football away days. days I'm happy to have left behind now.

barry lloyd
15th Apr 2009, 12:56
Quote:
Would you care to explain that comment in a little more detail?

I thought it was obvious. Those who died were Liverpool fans, who were crushed by a surge of Liverpool fans into an overcrowded area and that is why that guy who was there said what he did (although we know that the police were mainly to blame by opening the gate and allowing so many people to pour into that area.)

'Killed by their own kind?' Nobody was killed at Hillsborough. People died from asphyxiation, and the pleas for help from those around them went unheeded by the police, because they thought the fans were fighting, which they were not. This is a matter of record.

Hence my polite request for an explanation.

Curious Pax
15th Apr 2009, 13:22
The points made about latecoming Liverpool fans, some ticketless and some p*ssed creating the surge is fair enough, BUT at the time, for a big game, this was fairly standard. If the police in charge on the day had been up to the job then they would have expected a problem, and had plans in place to deal with it. They would also have kept tabs on how many people were going into the different sections, and as a result not have opened the gates to create a free-for-all.

However as Sproggett mentioned the people placed in charge had little or no experience of match policing, with the results plain for all to see. Thus much of the culpability rests with those towards the top of the South Yorkshire Police chain of command who created that scenario, as well as those on the ground who failed to keep control of the situation.

Although the usual bashing of football fans for causing this has reared its head again, I'm unconvinced that something similar wouldn't have happened if it was (for example) a rock concert that was being talked about, where for whatever reason there were a lot of latecomers and the main act were about to come on. It was all about crowd control, and the police on the day charged with that task failed.

On the brighter side things have changed in the last 20 years. I am now quite happy to take my 8 year old to Old Trafford when I can get tickets for United matches, pretty confident that we are safe. Nostalgic fans lament the all-seater stadiums these days, but I can't honestly see the attraction of standing myself - and I'm 6 feet tall so I would be able to see the action!

Gaz ED
15th Apr 2009, 13:28
"Liverpulians...salt of the earth, do anything for you, stick together...What a load of crap.
They are quite happy to sing "Youll never walk alone" and get all teary and sincere over footy accidents or Ken Bigley who never set foot in liverpool for 20 years.
However these solid people with a great community spirit werent too quick or keen hand over the killers of that boy who was shot to the police. They knew who he was. Or the black kid killed with an axe, perps cousin was a footballer.
Hippocritical bunch of grief junkies whose only claim to fame is a talentless foursome that filled void of shit music whith more shit music.

Why oh why did Boris Jonson aplologise. He hit the nail on the head.

I agree with earlier posts.Killed by their own kind,

I dont know any of the dead so cant grief for them so Im not going to pretend to, but I really dont need mauldling scousers all over the tv.
:ugh:http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/bah.gif"


standard of grammer and speeling sez it all reely!!!!:rolleyes:

barry lloyd
15th Apr 2009, 13:39
Feel better now bush? Obviously a well thought-out post! What an appropriate title you have!

By the way, it's Liverpudlians
Johnson
that boy who was shot do you mean Rhys Jones?
the black kid was Anthony Walker

In both cases names were given to the police by the local people, but they had to have a cast-iron case to go the the CPS with, and it took time.
With regard to Ken Bigley (posted previously by you I believe), many Scousers have the same opinion as you, me included. It was the media that made a big thing out of it, not the local people. When they went to local people for comment, they got it, as the media always does. Much of it came from his brother who had not lived in Liverpool for many years either. Like many other Liverpudlians, myself included, he had moved away to find a job, surprising as it may seem!

You're entitled to your opinion about the Beatles, but millions around the world would disagree with you, and so would the record sales.

Hippocritical well there are fat people in Liverpool, just as there are everywhere else, so perhaps you mean hypocritcal

Can't grief did you mean can't grieve?

maulding did you mean maudling?


I may be a Scouser, but at least I can spell, and I do read the previous posts. Now where do you post from? -Ah Gatwick!

Nick Riviera
15th Apr 2009, 13:45
'maulding did you mean maudling?'

No, I think he means maudlin.


'I may be a Scouser, but at least I can spell' hmmm :)

barry lloyd
15th Apr 2009, 13:58
'maulding did you mean maudling?'

No, I think he means maudlin.


'I may be a Scouser, but at least I can spell' hmmm

Yep, spelt it correctly the first time, and then mucked it up when I posted - but at least it's only one!

Storminnorm
15th Apr 2009, 14:00
I had a contract job in Liverpool in about 1968.
Working at Speke for British Eagle.
I arrived in the city in the evening, and didn't
have any idea where I was going to stay that
night.
I went into a pub to ask if anyone knew where
I could get a night's B&B locally.
One of the customers said " Don't worry about
that, you can stay at my place, and I'll fix you
up with a friend of mine tomorrow." which he
did.
Stayed at his place overnight in the front room,
Got a nice little bed-sit from his mate for the next
few weeks. Excellent.
True scousers! Bl**dy good company and goodhearted.

Probably helped that I've always been a Liverpool fan.

A little bit pe'ed off about last night's result though.

angels
15th Apr 2009, 14:35
I was watching Palace at home on this day 20 years ago. I don't remember who we were playing which is surprising I suppose.

About 10 minutes into the game the rumour went around, "The scousers have invaded the pitch at Hillsborough." How wrong we were.

At half time we were at the bar and the Beeb were reporting seven dead. The place went silent. The second half was meaningless and forgettable. But I do remember the buzz of the crowd just talking about was going on and as as soon the final whistle went we rushed down to the bar again to find the death toll was around 40.

I had been caught up in football crushes before (remember that vile tunnel into Wembley Park tube on the way back from the Twin Towers?) and my thought was that this could have happened at many a football ground.

Curious Pax sums up my general feelings.

But what I found unforgiveable was that at the end of the season Palace played Birmingham City who were going down.

We were 4-0 up (I think) and the City fans deliberately surged against the railings, crushing the women and kids at the front -- their own fans. Thanks God there were gates. The police opened them to save the trapped people, but there it was, advertising hoardings being used as stretchers, just weeks after Hillsborough.

Meanwhile the hoolies were scrapping on the pitch and also attacking their own players who had to be led off.

Terrible times.

Nick Riviera
15th Apr 2009, 15:44
I was watching Wimbledon play, back in the Plough Lane days, also don't remember who they were playing, but had the same experience as Angels. Whole bar was silent at half time as the news sank in. Strange atmosphere in the ground for the second half and then everybody rushed back to the bar to watch the news.

This was the season that ended with the best finish to a Championship ever, when Arsenal won the title at Anfield with virtually the last kick of the season. Funnily enough the whole scenario only happened because of Hillsborough. Arsenal were due to play their league game at Anfield a few days after the tragedy but refused to fulfill the fixture as a mark of respect to Liverpool, both club and city. Arsenal were actually threatened with a points deduction by the FA (typical - out of step with public opinion), but flatly refused to play and said they would not appeal against any such deduction if it happened. Common sense prevailed and the fixture was postponed, thus giving us that fantastic night of football. I understand that there is still a lot of respect for Arsenal in Liverpool for their gesture, notwithstanding the fact that they spoilt what would have been a very emotional title win for the city. As a Gooner myself, I was very proud of the stand that the club took, even though it could have potentially cost them the title. Some things are more important.