Hours building in Florida..visa

[irishpilot1990]

Ok firstly I know there is treads about this, but things have changed recently..(visa weiver)

I just want to hours build...not train...I am been told by most this doesn't require a visa?!?! I am going for 2 weeks!

I checked out the embassy website and it appears ESTA form is only thing I have to fill out, correct?

Also on entry I will be asked purpose of visit etc, when I say a flying holiday will they know I don’t need visa etc, or will alarms start ringing and I will get dragged into some room for ages like when training on an m1 visa:{.

One pilot recommended I say nothing about flying! :EBut if they ask me about my business or something this could get tricky…so I want to stay honest!:)

[A and C]

Why the expensive option that will not equipe you for flying in europe?

Why Florida one of the most expensive places in the USA?

It would seem to me that if it is hoursbuilding that you want then you would be better off in Europe or in one of the less popular places in the USA, try Detroit. Michigan is a great place to fly in the summer and the prices are not inflated by the tourist trade.

Or look at this guys website and get a veiw on another way of doing things.

index (http://www.zerotoatpl.com)

What ever you do don't follow the crowd to Florida without taking a look at the other options............. unless what you want is a holiday with a bit of flying attached.

[davey147]

Hi IrishPilot

Florida is a great place to do your hour building im sure ull enjoy it.

Dont worry about the US immigration, unless uve done something wrong in the past, they wont deny you access.

They will chat to you, and ask you why you are going to xxxxx (they already know where you are staying, its on the computer) just tell them you have a private pilots license and you are there on a flying holiday.

Ive met loads of people who get worried about going through immigration. Really there is nothing to worry about, ull be through in a couple of mins!

One bit of advise is, DO NOT LIE, if you are there for hour building, then tell them.

Enjoy your time there.

[tigermagicjohn]

Having considerd hour building in the USA, I have done all the FAA and CAA stuff, however it turns out I need a course there to be allowed to fly there with my UK PPL JAR license, flight review before or after picking up the “restricted” license, and this I have been quoted will cost me around $1.900.

With todays exchange rate that's around £1.400 - add travel to Florid around £350 - and hotel prices/food of around £50 a day - your average hour price is not really that great anymore. For 1 month of hour building that will cost you around £3250. So for the package of hours, good idea to add this to the average price.
Yes of course the flight review is a 1 off outlay - however most likely you will want to hour build for no more than 1 to 3 months. Presented with these facts, it's not that big difference, or?

You can hour build on visa waiver, don't need visa for this.

[Paris Dakar]

irishpilot1990,

You don't need a visa for hour-bulding.

Immigration will ask you the purpose of your visit (business/vacation) they don't want/need chapter and verse but they will want to know where you're stopping whilst you're there - the hotel/motel you are spending your first night will suffice if you're travelling around.

I always carry my headset, logbook and licences in my hand luggage and never once has this been queried or questioned when either arriving or departing the US.

Shop around for deals, many organisations don't bother responding to e-mails (in my experience of the last few months, anyway) so be prepared to pick up the phone and see what the best rate you can get is. I've flown in Florida & California and can't say that one is more expensive than t'other - can't comment on Michigan I'm afraid.

Enjoy the flying :)

[selfin]

The Visa Waiver Program for certain nationals (Irish included) is acceptable, as stated, for persons wishing to enter the US for hour building. Under certain circumstances a B-class visa is acceptable.

The VWP is also acceptable for persons wishing to undertake FAA night rating training or JAR-FCL night qualification training.

Remember to give yourself about 3 to 4 weeks for the FAA to supply a US-airman certificated based upon your IAA-issued JAR flight crew licence.

FAA Part 91 rules available here (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=751422f1ec90c7b2ed84a06357cc13d2&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfr91_main_02.tpl). FAA's School Locator database [link (http://av-info.faa.gov/PilotSchool.asp)] gives you an abundance of options. AirNav maintains an up-to-date fuel price database [link (http://www.airnav.com/fuel/)].

Best of luck.

[tigermagicjohn]

Does anybody have any more information regarding the flight review required?

Honestly do not see there to be to much saving flying in the US just now, I have found eg. in Norway I can rent C-172 or PA28 for £90 - £105 wet - UK a little more - (I do not fly the C-152)

I might be wrong - but not really seen prices in the USA that are that great anymore - specially because the UK Pound now is pretty worthless around the world!
Not sure if flying in other "areas" like Detroit is going to be cheaper, because you will be more dependant on the weather, or lack of good weather.
For the cost of sorting out the flight review and travel/expenses to the US, I could get around 26 - 30 hours in the UK in a PA28.

As an example I looked at sunstateaviation website, and they offer 50 hours incl. accom. for $8179 - (Does not include the flight review for JAR PPL, which I have been quoted approx. $1900 by another flight school)

This price is $8179 is in a C-172, in UK pounds this will be approx. £5842 + £1400 flight review + travel £350 = £7592 (not including food and drinks for a month), for that price you could get around 61 hours in the UK.

Naples air, offer the C-172 at $125 and the PA 28 at $105, however does not confirm if this is wet or dry hour price, still useing the cheapest option, the PA 28 it works out $5250 for 50 hours + flight review and travel/living expenses (cheap hotel probably around ££600). This works out around £6100, and is marginally cheaper then the UK options available which I have found, if the price is wet rental. Also I am not sure if the conditions they require are feasable, all 50 hours within 14 days.

Difference will be around 1.2 hours, which you will probably spend on extra burgers on chips anyway when you are there!

So unless you are buying around 150 -200 hours, I can't really see where the great savings are going to be!

However with more and more student pilots seeing and understanding this, I can see US flight schools struggling now in these next couple of years and going to the wall, because striceter Visa requirements (death of J-1 visa), extremly poor exchange rate for UK students, and a more or less useless FAA license for anyone who wants to fly in europe, with conversions etc. - there is no more great savings, mainly because of the UK Pound exchange rate and less possibilites to instruct in the US in the future!

[irishpilot1990]

"Naples air, offer the C-172 at $125 and the PA 28 at $105, however does not confirm if this is wet or dry hour price, still using the cheapest option, the PA 28 it works out $5250 for 50 hours + flight review and travel/living expenses (cheap hotel probably around ££600). This works out around £6100, and is marginally cheaper then the UK options available which I have found, if the price is wet rental. Also I am not sure if the conditions they require are feasible, all 50 hours within 14 days.

Difference will be around 1.2 hours, which you will probably spend on extra burgers on chips anyway when you are there!"

Naples is wet by the way. Exactly why I am going...same price, fraction of the time. A and C constantly makes posts against people going abroad. same price/fraction of the time...cant argue against that.
And I have flown there before so yes I know Thunderstorms daily, its still better then looking outside a European window and seeing drizzle from morning till evening.:ouch:or cloud metars with bkn 900 feet.:ugh:

If any one who disagrees with America can they PM me if they can rent me an aircraft in the Mediterranean for 100 dollars an hour please PM me:p

also i stand to be corrected. no biannual review is needed. Just get your license validated,get letter of authencitity,meet FSDO official, rental school checks you out. Off you go.. that’s for an IAA PPL anyways.

[tigermagicjohn]

Yes agree with the weather - but but but!

I would not prepay to much to any US flight school at the moment, some of the "BIG" ones are going to go bust/ bang / hit the wall very soon.

An example here:

http://www.naiasc.com/

North American Institute of Aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Institute_of_Aviation)

I know this was school which many Norwegians used to use, and guess what? International students have not been refunded!

Who will be next? :suspect:

[irishpilot1990]

and back to topic...

Il lose a few minutes in airport explaining my visit..but it will be better in the long run.dont want hassle.

so just fill out by ESTA form and off i go?

[mcgoo]

tigermajicjohn, if you have ben quoted $1900 for a flight review you are getting ripped off, it only consists of 1 hour ground school and a 1 hour flight, you should have change from $200.

[GBB]

Hey,
Prices for Christiansen Aviation in Tulsa.


Hourly Rates for Aircraft
C152------------------$70
C172P/Warrior ----$88
C172R---------------$98
C172S/SP---------$110
C172S (G1000)--$124
C172RG-----------$115
Duchess-----------$170
10 Hour Block Rates:
Cessna 152------------$62 = $620
Cessna 172/Warrior $82 = $820
Cessna 172R----------$93 = $930
Cessna 172RG-----$100 = $1000
$1000 Block Rates:
Cessna 152--------------$59
Cessna 172/Warrior---$78
Plane Rental Rates DO NOT include Tax/Instructor Fees. (they are wet tho)

Yeah i know its not Florida and theres not much to do around, but cost of living is not as high as FL.

[tigermagicjohn]

$200 ???

Please can someone confirm more details of this, because this is what I recieved in email from EAA-fly.com.

And to be honest, that put me off the whole hour building project in the US.


"
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:


6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
For a total of $1,896"

[BelArgUSA]

Florida...?
My opinion, I think you Brits have only one thing in your head - Orlando...
Probably the most expensive area in Florida, Disneyworld, Universal Studios.
By far, MIA, FLL and W Palm Beach are much less expensive. Food/hotel.
Same situation in Tampa/St.Pete/Ft.Meyers... Much better than Orlando.
xxx
There are seasonal differences too. The "Snowbirds" in winter.
December to Easter, Canadians invade cheap motels/rentals.
Outside that season (summer) - prices go sometimes down to one/half.
Orlando remains high through the year, due to amusement parks...
Many more airplane operators in MIA/FLL etc. More competition, lower prices.
xxx
And the weather North or Central Florida can be cold in winter.
MIA/FLL has generally much warmer weather.
Airplane rental is not the only expense. Meals and motels are too.
xxx
:ok:
Happy contrails

[davey147]

$200 ???

Please can someone confirm more details of this, because this is what I recieved in email from EAA-fly.com.

And to be honest, that put me off the whole hour building project in the US.


"
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:

•6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
•6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
•For a total of $1,896"

If this is the quote from EAA-Fly then stay away from them. They are ripping you off !!

For a biannual review, it consists of 1 hour flight and 1 hour ground school (most schools dont even do the ground school, but they should) -- Pay no more than $200 MAXIMUM.

Go next door to NAC and do it, they wont rip you off, ive done many reviews there. Also REX AIR is upstairs, and London Aviation up the street. EAA-Fly is very expensive, the aeroplanes are very nice though! but in my opinion not worth the extra cash.

I agree with with the hour building in the USA, ive met tons of people who slag pilots off who do flying in the States, and I honestly dont know why. I find it harder to fly in America than I do in the UK, I personally took a 1 hour checkout flight at Multiflight after I did my PPL in the USA, and had no problems whatsoever, been flying over here for years, its boring compared to the USA but its flying :). Each to their own I guess!

[Paris Dakar]

so just fill out by ESTA form and off i go?

In short yes! I was in Florida several weeks back and you still had to fill out the visa waiver forms manually prior to arrival despite completing the info on-line.

[selfin]

Does anybody have any more information regarding the flight review required?

14 CFR 61.56 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6cd0d5cbe97a0dc670ddd4d473d707a2&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.34&idno=14) (Flight review). Requirements at 61.57 (Recent flight experience) and JAR-FCL 1.026 (Amdt 2 - latest amdt)
can be met with during the one-hour flight requirement under 61.56. Does not (http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf) require a TSA-Assessment.

Follow instructions at FAA foreign license (sic) verification webpage (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/) if not already in possession of a 61.75-certificate (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4973d96ec5d8ce1d5a07b169490f9bc8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.2.1.10&idno=14).
Ensure any existing 61.75-certificate states "English Proficient (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/English_proficiency/)" in section XIII.

Flight review can be circumvented by qualifying for an unrestricted US-Private Pilot Certificate
which does in most cases require a TSA-Assessment (see 61.39(c) (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6cd0d5cbe97a0dc670ddd4d473d707a2&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.24&idno=14), 61.41 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6cd0d5cbe97a0dc670ddd4d473d707a2&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.25&idno=14), 61.1(b)(2)(iii) & 61.1(b)(3) (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=4973d96ec5d8ce1d5a07b169490f9bc8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.1&idno=14) and 61-Subpart E (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=6cd0d5cbe97a0dc670ddd4d473d707a2&rgn=div6&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.5&idno=14).)

[gfunc]

Just for comparison, I had a 7 year hiatus from flying but my combined retraining, BFR, conversion to new type (C172) and club checkout was accomplished in 2 flights of 2 hours 40 minutes total. I'm certainly no superpilot!

I think with the instructor ground time (an hour or so) the total cost was below $300. That $1900 is a rip off! Assuming you are current it really shouldn't be more than a check ride and a little chat to see if you can read the map and know how to make use of the ATC services.

Note that you don't need to do the BFR at the place you rent from, any qualified CFI can do it (I think!), just turn up somewhere else, spend 2 hours and $200 to get the signature in the logbook and other than an organisation specific insurance checkout, you'll good to go.

Hope this helps,

Gareth.

[PA28Viking]

Watch out!

Hour building in the States can be done without visa. The newly chances () only requires you to register for the visa waiver program BEFORE you fly, and during a transition period you will probably still have to fill out the forms in flight anyway.

But you also need a FAA PPL. That is either one you qualified for during training in the US (and kept current) OR a ‘piggy back’ FAA license which is based on your JAR PPL, and is valid as long as your JAR license and medical is valid. It is an up to three – four month process, and you can find the details in one of the sticky posts in the private flying forum, I think. You start by applying in writing to the FAA, and finish by visiting one of the local FAA offices. If you do not have this in place before you go, then forget about any flying.

Then where you rent the plane, the will give you around one hour instruction about US airspace etc. and then one-two hours check-out where you demonstrate that it is likely that you will bring the plane back in one piece. So you will demonstrate slow flight, slow speed stalls, high speed stalls, steep turns and some landings. Where I did it (Bay Air (http://http://www.bayair.com) in St. Petersburg), it was all done in a very relaxed atmosphere, with a very friendly instructor.

But remember: No FAA (Piggy back) license – No flying.

[A and C]

Quote

A and C constantly makes posts against people going abroad.

Yes I do! and having flown both GA and for an airline in the USA I think that I might have a better overall view than a number of the people new to aviation who seem to be dazzed by the bright lights of the USA and blinded by the "rip-off" UK syndrome that inhabits these forums.

The USA headline price is undoubtedly attractive but the weather is not all it is cracked up to be with thunderstorms and strong winds being the major enemy of low time pilots in Florida, this is one of the reasons for looking at Michigan in the summer. being mid continent the weather is more stable, the other reason is that Florida is more expensive to live in however I would not recomend it during the winter.

The standard of aircraft is much more variable than in Europe with some very good aircraft but more than a few that I would not tie my dog too! The only way to find out what the company has to offer is to visit.
I did my FAA CPL/IR in the USA and despite thinking that I had it set up from this side of the Atlantic it did not happen as planned due to the compleat inability to organise on the part of the pre booked company. six weeks and two companys later I found a very good place but at about 50% higher cost than the cheapest. I was working in the USA so the delay was not a problem but what would happen to you if you only had three weeks leave?

Flying in the USA did not in any way help me to fly in Europe and for a low time pilot this might require some re-training in Europe and you have to cost that into the total flying bill.

What I want to bring to this debate in not an anti-USA message but one of balance I have seen a lot of people get stung in the USA and come back short of more than a few hours and some very bad habits. On the other hand I know people who have had a great time flying in the USA and achived all that they set out to do................ the split is about 50/50.

I do have a bit of an axe to grind on this issue because I do lease aircraft to hours builders, however this gives me a lot of feedback from my customers and a very current few on the hours building business.

I know that I will have more customers who have had disapointments in the USA but it would be nice to get the business from them from day one rather than see them spend a lot of money for very little more than a disrupted hoilday.

[tigermagicjohn]

The paperwork for validation of JAR PPL with UK CAA and the FAA took just around 4 - 5 weeks, and for me is valid until August.

I wanted to go there and get some hours of experience - but not at any price.

And as some people mention regarding the weather in Florida, can be pretty rough sometimes, I have spent much time in Miami the last 5 years on private / business trips - and is not sunshine every day, specially autumn/winter can get nasty.

Once I drove from Miami (Sunshine) to Naples - I stopped and turned around half way, it was not possible to drive to Naples because of to heavy storms, this was in the middle of June.

I think before there was savings because of the exchange rate - now it's no worse or better then anywhere else. Also it is about learning to fly safely in various weather conditions, not just flying when it is CAVOK with vis. +10km!
What's the challenge and fun just to fly in clear weather?

I did briefly look online eg. someone mention Michigan, however rental prices there are similar.

So now the flight review should not cost me more then 1 hours GS + 1 hour flying?

So this offer from EAA was then a rip off offer?
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:


6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
For a total of $1,896"
It is good to know, because he frequently posts on these forums too.:ugh:

[A and C]

In the Northern US the headline flying rates are much the same as Florida what is cheaper is hotels, car rental, eating out and the nif-naf & trivia that goes with flying.

It is the add on bits that the most peolpe fail to include in the hourly price of the aircraft that push up the true hourly cost.

Florida is a vacation state and is priced as such, get away from Micky Mouse and the prices fall.

[irishpilot1990]

A and C what places would u recommend apart form Florida...
need something fairly close to a large transatlantic airport-makes life a little easier.
Good weather- obvious reasons.
Maybe somewhere with accommodation nearby, and grocery stores.

also can anyone tell me...I have my FAA letter of authenicity for license validation.Is there anyway i can get my piggyback license in ireland...so i dont have to go looking for the FSDO around orlando etc.

[tigermagicjohn]

I think you have to visit the FSDO in USA, because they want to check you.
If anyone has other news, please enlighten us!

[B2N2]

also i stand to be corrected. no biannual review is needed. Just get your license validated,get letter of authencitity,meet FSDO official, rental school checks you out

Just to make this clear, you DO need the BFR to validate/activate your piggy back license.
It states it clearly in the FAA Inspectors handbook (formerly order 8900)
which is available online:
Flight Standards Information System (FSIMS) (http://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=AreasOfInterests&area=05&subject=02&regulation=61)

Almost at the bottom:
Part 61: Issue a Title 14 CFR Part 61 U.S. Pilot Certificate on the Basis of a Foreign-Pilot License
I quote:

As a point of emphasis, make clear to the applicant that a flight review (see § 61.56 ) must be administered by the holder of an FAA flight instructor certificate with the appropriate ratings before he/she may exercise the privileges of his/her U.S. pilot certificate. The proficiency checks administered by a foreign flight instructor do not count as meeting the flight review requirements of § 61.56

OK, with that out of the way let's discuss the requirements of the Flight review itself.
14 CFR 61.56 states (amongs other things):

a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground trainingThe review must include:

(1) A review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter; and

(2) A review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

The FAA provides guidance on their website as to how a 61.56 Flight review needs to be conducted:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/media/flight_review.pdf
It's 26 pages by the way.
Same as in Europe the flight review is not meant as a rubber stamping excercise. It is an evaluation of pilot skills and knowledge which you officially cannot fail as it's not a skills test or checkride as such but your instructor may require more training prior to signing the logbook.
With that out of the way let's discuss what has been mentioned in previous posts


I think with the instructor ground time (an hour or so) the total cost was below $300. That $1900 is a rip off! Assuming you are current it really shouldn't be more than a check ride and a little chat to see if you can read the map and know how to make use of the ATC services.

and:

So this offer from EAA was then a rip off offer?
Cost of the flight review is difficult to predict.
It ultimately depends on how many hrs ground and flight instruction you require.
Preparation will obviously reduce the cost.
If, just for the sake of the discussion, we assume:

6 hrs ground ( 2 hrs G1000, 4 hrs Flight review) $420
6 hrs flight ( DA 40 FP/CS) $1,476
For a total of $1,896"
It is good to know, because he frequently posts on these forums too.

I find both statements offensive to a professional flight instructor.

**** Disclaimer, the following rant is not aimed at any of the above posters personally. The word "you" is meant generically as being "you" the reader ****


You need to stop comparing apples and oranges.
There is a big difference between somebody that has a US PPL and have done all of their training in the US and somebody who holds a piggyback license based on a foreign license and NEVER having flown in the US.
It is simply irresponsible to treat both the same.
It seems obvious that "push this button" instruction for 30 min doesn't cut it as far as G1000 operations are concerned.
You will need every minute of those two hours power point presentation and G1000 table top sim. The last one I did took 3 hours because the customer had a lot of (good) questions.
4 hours of ground school is on the low side even if I have to teach you everything thing that a US PPL already knows as far as:

Airspace
Charts
Publications
Notams
Radio communications
ATC services available
Weather briefings (ground and airborne)
Regulations ( all VFR related portions of Part 91)
Maintenance requirements
Accident and Incident reporting requirements.


Four flights (6 hours) in:

an airplane type that is unfamiliar
with avionics that are unfamiliar
in airspace that is unfamiliar
with radio communications and procedures that are unfamiliar

is certainly not outrageous, more bitter necessity.
One hour of ground school is maybe barely enough to have you safely fly the traffic pattern at a non-towered airport, let alone have you fly cross country.

If anything I apologize for giving a quote that may very well be too low.

Let's not forget the purpose of this timebuilding; it is meant for you to learn on your own. Safely extend your own horizons and expand on your knowledge and experience.
Not to simply drill holes in the sky and fly to the same airport for 20 hours simply because you don't know (or are not proficient enough) to go anywhere else.

Florida is app. 400 NM long, that is from Key West to Tallahassee.
Lake Okeechobee is 25NM wide and 35 NM long, that's wider then the English Channel. From Marathon to the mainland is 26 NM, wider then the English channel. As a PPL in the US you have access too and the responsibility to know how to operate out of some pretty big airports. Even if it wasn't your original destination but you have to deviate because of weather or other problems.
To have somebody fly throughout Florida without the proficiency and the skills to ask for weather updates and ATC services in an airplane that they don't know is irresponsible.
Sending somebody who's never flown in the US before off in an airplane with the advise of "stay away from the coloured bits on the chart" is criminal.
Either our requirements are too high or their's too low.
Your decision, we have made ours.
In the mean time, if you have any questions, as always feel free to send me an email or PM.

[sevenstar]

B2N2 i think you make some very valid points and you make them well.
I think the mentality of get something as cheap as you can has led to some false expectations with regards bfr time.

At the end of the day whatever intsructor signs your logbook as having succesfully completed the BFR they have to be sure you are competent in all areas of operating in the US. Its their neck on the line too 'cos if the renter does something silly or stupid the first point on the paper trail is the last instructor to sign the BFR!

If i was converting onto a new airframe (i think EAA have diamonds) plus a whole new avionics sytem plus local airspace plus different RT and procedures,plus new notams,flightplans etc,plus the weather both inside the cockpit(xm) and outside(Cb'swinds,often mod low level turbulence) then six hours seems fine to me and speaking personally i think i would need every minute of it.

PS i am not part of EAA and have never flown with them and dont know them at all apart from their website in fact!

[A and C]

The fact is that it is almost imposable to do anything in the USA without a car so if you don't want to be tied to a "package providor" who will no doubt nickel & dime you out of more than you would like some wheels.

I found Detroit OK just west of Detroit Metro airport is the old airport Willow Run, (local FAA office) that has a few places to fly or my recomendation would be to go a little further west on the I94 to Ann Arbour, a good FBO, not the cheapest but you get what you pay for.

I have no doubt that if you look around the non holiday destinations you will find some good local FBO's who will help you, contact by email and then talk on the phone to see if you like them before parting with money!

[ConcernedIR]

I was just browsing the internet to compare those prices listed above and saw that EFT (http://www.flyeft.com) offer 50 hours for $5,500 including 21 days accommodation (which includes shared car) and an airport pickup.

They use C172 for what it's worth and the rental is wet, also when I was in Florida they had a large fleet.

Just surprised no one picked up on it yet! :ugh:

[A and C]

If you are inerested in this thread you should read this:-

www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/366938-have-i-been-stupid-oft.html

[tigermagicjohn]

First regarding the EFT offer - does not include flight review, and I love this bit "Price Subject to Change without notice"

50 hours completed with 10 days!
Honestly what kind of constructive flying can you complete within 10 days - at average 5 hours a day? Something that would be NOTHING else then burning holes in the sky!
And are these 50 block hours open for everybody? Or just for CPL students with EFT? Not really clear from their site. Still the breakdown of the price makes it around £4000 + travel/flight review!

Back to EAA, is simply asked the opinion of fellow PPRune'rs what their opinion was of $1900 for flight review!
Add this to any hour build packages, and result is there is NO "Savings" going to the USA anymore.
Be honest, you want to go to the US, to get a new experience, but not solely to enhance your flying skills, not because you want to save money to be able to get more hours for the least amount of money.

Is it wrong that pilots want most hours for the least amount of Pounds/Dollars?
The flight schools want most amount of Pounds/Dollars for their operation, so they can be profitable.
I do not have a problem with this, that is not my point!
However let's be honest, so everybody can make their own judgment and opinion, in the current climate going to the USA for flight traing has more negatives then positives, of course plenty of posters are showing they are getting worried that posts here are being read by potential students/hour builders, who they might loose now, as they are presented with the real facts.
The only advantage Florida has is the sun and girls, which itself is not a bad thing - however the example above from EFT, 50 hours within 10 days, you probably won't see much of either.
As somebody else pointed out earlier, what about the quality of hour building? However the schools set out these rules for 3 reasons, they want as much money as possible in the shortest possible time, they do not care if the flying is beneficial for the pilot, and they will get their money regardless if you complete the 50 hours in the period given by them.

However the flight schools should be carefull now, because I hope more and more people will start using their IQ, and not just their wallet. In these economic times people have to be more carefull anyway.

There is NOTHING to save with regards to money to train in the USA for a JAA CPL/IR/ME - I am not going to present the calculations again, already done that in the past. People can work it out themselves.

There is very little if anything to save with hour building 50 to 100 hours, if more maybe a little.
The experience of flying in the USA will not be very beneficial for UK flying, weather, climate different. And that brings us back to the quality of flying - weather conditions in the UK are much more challenging, I have been flying in Scandinavia and UK, very different countries to fly in, bought have thogught me a lot in each their way.
As mentioned in another post, what good is flying 50 hours in CAVOK, ++ Visibily more then 10Km?
Is that going to make you a better pilot? Make you better to understand weather forecasts, etc.

I believe a US PPL (Florida based) would struggle more coming here to the UK to fly, then a JAR PPL (UK) flying in Florida!

If I or anyone else wants to go to hour build in the US, let's get it straight - it is for a new experience, see something new, and be able to make something constructive of the flights, planning and debriefing. However the schools have modelled the hour building like a "red light district concept" - Quickly in, and get out ASP after you have paid them for their 50 hours.

I can get 50 hours in Norway for $7000, with NO TIME PRESSURE, no flight review, and I have friends I can live at for free, and in well maintained clean aircrafts. (PA 28, C-172) and £50 FR - ticket to Oslo. In the UK similar package will cost a bit more - for both these last alternatives I am able to plan it/schedule all myself - and to make the optimal of each flight for my own benefit.
All others seems to be Rush and Go, not even time for Touch and Go!

All in all the prices here and across the pond at the end of the day will be pretty similar - and please US is a large continent, but how far will you travel in a PA 28 when hour buidling? Or do you want to leave sunny Florida and maybe get grounded for 4 days because of bad weather, and when returned to base your time period has expired and you only managed to fly 30 of those 50 hours you paid for!

Also flying from UK, does not mean you only stay in the UK, the advantage of airplanes is that you can actually fly over that little lake called the english channel to a country called France - from France it is not far to Belgium, Holland or Germany. And if you really have to much money to burn you can go down to Cote D'Azur, Marbella - you are NOT limited to only be flying within the UK airspace. I believe that is more of a challenge experiencing different ATC's in europe then just flying in circles outside the Bermuda triangle!

Does not mean I would not like to go "Over There" and experience a bit myself - but I will rather spend the $1900 flight review money on extra European quality hours - as they probably will be of more use for me at the moment!

Still to all, NAIA went bust, they was very reputable for many years, so I believe many US flight schools are very very afraid now, and good to see so many responses by people with very few posts earlier. Makes me believe more and more that many on these forums have their own protectionist agenda!

Quality - Cheap - Rush - Aviation - are 4 words that does not seem to fith together from what I have read and seen so far.

Schools/instructors want you to gain the greatest possible experience, in the shortest possible time, so they Rush you trough 50 hours in CAVOK + 10km Vis. - within 10 to 14 days, and they believe this will then give you the pilot the greatest benefit and learning experience for your further career with them or as a pilot in general!

If it was dead cheap, maybe you could justify it a little to get some more hours, guess what, it is not low shelf dead cheap - it's just as everywhere else.
Then there are posters on here saying the students are the cheapskates, who just do the easy stuff, why? Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.
And then someone say, oh but the student to save money takes short cuts in their training, vow boomer - that's what it seems to many schools are doing for their own students, I guess they do what they are thought by the school, take short cuts!

[BigGrecian]

Maybe because the setup is not designed to provide quality, but rather a greater quanity of students/pilots to complete and spend the most amount of Dollars in the shortest possible time.

Couple of points:


If schools were 100% devoted to high quality training they would go out of business! They wouldn't have the through put required to be commercially viable. Harsh but true. :bored:
Including accommodation and that check out/bfr isn't bad at that package price.
Everywhere you rent an aircraft they require a check out with one of their instructors - name somewhere which doesn't.
Most people live in the real world (Unlike you) and are under pressure from work, as they can only get a certain amount of time of work and need to complete in a short time period.
KeyGrip posted the best thread I've ever read on Pprune!
You should go to Oxford - they seem like a perfect fit for you!
I did some training in the USA and saved huge amounts of money and time (which is one of the most costly factors) compared to UK. (And for the record I have a UK CPL and UK IR (both first time before you mention anything) from a school in Bournemouth which is alas no more.)


That's my only post I'll make on the issue; I've stated my opinion and won't be drawn in by the magician! No doubt he'll magic up a school from himself and the money to pay for the training at the quality he wants, which will no doubt go bankrupt shortly after his visit.

Stop posting in two places - read the forum rules!

[irishpilot1990]

I asked was to confirm a visa was not necessary...

ANOTHER England .v. U.S.A thread :-P

Thread outcome: No visa is required, just the ESTA...also a Bi-annual Flight Review is necessary for everyone.:}Thanks all for replies.

can we use the other threads for the other debate:ok:

[Keygrip]

Easy - asked and answered.