Netjets airplanes in storage

[Green Cactus]

Just heard the rumor that NJE will start putting airplanes in storage, anyone knows anything more?

GC

[Brizeguy]

Yes. 400's mostly, into the HAS's at St.Mawgan.

[BlueVolta]

So is it the begining of the end or the end of the begining for NetJets...?

Seems that it is not going anymore so well and that the plans are revised :{

Wait and see, redundacies to be announced next....

[Stupidbutsaveable]

And your point is?:(
Of course plans change during times like these.

[OFBSLF]

Wait and see, redundacies to be announced next....Many people have lost significant portions of their wealth. Everyone is cutting back on expenses. Companies are cutting back on their use of private aircraft, both for cost savings and and for political considerations -- they don't want to be the next CEO dragged in front of TV cameras.

As a result, business is reduced at charter and fractional operators. That will result in aircraft grounded and staff being laid off.

None of that is a surprise or a particularly unique insight.

[Iver]

Don't tell that to the founders of Jet Bird (Phenom 100 air taxi)!!!!! Perhaps they will fly the former NJE owners in the smaller, cheaper Phenom 100 charter flights instead...

[Rusty Trombone]

Several 400 and 800 Parked up, some at chester, some in Cascais LPCS know of many pilots at home on standby not flown for months.
Its not just Net Jets, everyone is parking aircraft cheap parking is the new fashion statement.
Lasham, Biggin Hill, Manston, Robin Hood, are all starting to have biz jets parked on their ramp for long periods.

[barista]

And now there is more talk of pilots being fired. First the emails from uphigh say 'nobody will be fired' then it become 'we looking at options' now the langauge become less sweet.

I tell you it is comming.

[screwballburling]

Just do the sums.

It is not rocket science to see that pilots are going to have to be laid off, most permanently. Oh yes. If the "man management" at NJE was such they should have been honest and said to the work force, "prepare for bad news" at the onset, then one would have a little more respect for the "management". Problem is they believe their own B/S and spin.

Why would NJE or NJME be immune to staff cuts including pilots?

The turnaround in the economy has not begun. This is the reality of the sad times we are living in and no job is safe. To say otherwise is complete folly.

On a brighter note, there is a life outside aviation.

[mutt]

NJME

I havent heard that NJME are parking planes, so why should they consider staff reductions?

Mutt

[screwballburling]

Mutt

"I haven't heard that NJME are parking planes, so why should they consider staff reductions?"

Didn't state they were. However they are not immune to cut backs.

[scambuster]

word on the piazza is that netjets US have released details of an agreement with pilots on various "voluntary" options to cut back the workforce. Europe to follow probably.
Anyone have more information?

[TWOTBAGS]

NJME is not parking planes at the moment.

Certainly we have been slow but that has a lot to do with various different reasons and the prime one we have is that the oil price has been too low.

Like all things here in the gulf, everything that is capital intensive requires a good oil price.... the more they make, the more they spend.

We have taken delivery of 3 Hawker 750s and there are more on the way, and 3 older 800s have gone. LX's are still coming and the timing is dependant upon the certification of the winglets.

All up we have weathered it ok so far :E :ok:

[Flintstone]

scambuster.

A little bird landed on my shoulder a couple of weeks ago and told me that pretty soon NJA would be offering it's crew several options namely 1) Early retirement with a lump sum pay-off, 2) A short leave of absence (12-18 months?) on 25-33% salary, 3) Leave of absence on US$1000 per month 'retainer', 4) Lighter workload/reduced roster plus a couple of (then) to be decided other choices. That was during the negotiation phase so I've no idea which, if any, of the proposals made it to fruition.

NJE are of course in a completely different position as all attempts at forming a union were spiked (with a little help from a Quisling or two) so the workforce has absolutely no clout and will just be along for the ride to the awful end. As someone said earlier the language in company memos has gradually become less warm and fuzzy over the last few months and it's looking like the worst will happen. No idea on numbers but they've got to be at least 30% pilots overcrewed for the current market or even the first year or two of any upturn in the market. The boys and girls I bump into around the traps tell me they're practically idle.

I don't think it's going to be a case of 'if' but 'when' (this summer?) and 'who'. The seniority list is really just there to placate the masses and will give little if any protection. Those staying will be the ones most useful in the short term ie, whose aircraft aren't parked up in St Mawgan. Not sure where that leaves the cadets. Are they still putting them through Oxford?

[Capt Crash]

Things are difficult for everyone in this business and now is the time to hold ones' nerve. The cousins (NJA) have bashed out a deal that the pilots and management seem to be happy with. If we get a deal that is similar, I won't complain. It's on the NJASAP website for all to see.

Netjets doesn't want to make anyone redundant and never has in it's history but, times are tough. Time will tell but I don't think we, the pilots, are going to get stuffed. There are 20 crew members working with management looking for a solution as I type this. True, we have no union ,the crews are being listened to and now is not the time for a game of 'us and them'.

Time will tell but, I'm not worried.......yet!

[Flintstone]

Captain C.

The 20 pilots are no doubt talking to the same people who filibustered by introducing the long, drawn out 'survey' :rolleyes: and who will still trouser their bonuses. They sure as hell won't be facing the chop and I think the not-so-subtle shift in their language should be a big clue as to which way their thinking is going.

I'm inclined to think that the best thing for NJE crew would be a nice, early upturn in the market before anyone has to see just how generous Lisbon is feeling. Should it come to the latter my inclination would be toward 'not very' although they'll couch it in some warm and fuzzy language. Wonder what their budget on 'Consultants' has been this quarter?

[KUMOOZ]

Flinty,
Surely if you were so well informed about all things NJE you wouldn't need to ask if cadets are still going thru Oxford. :ouch:
Then again with over 1,700 posts perhaps you just cant resist....

[Flintstone]

You don't need to be up to date on cadets or even inside the company to know how the people at the top think. They're the same people who were there three years ago and after six years in NJE I think I have a pretty good idea of a) how their masters across the pond think and b) just how long any company can hold out before making some commercial decisions. How many stockbrokers actually work for the companies whose shares they buy and sell? None, yet they can still 'read' them from the outside.

"1700 posts", and your point is? That it equates to two a week? I appreciate that as a NJE noob you're worried but there's no need to get snotty with the messenger.

[scambuster]

Whispers in the trattoria say that the cadets in or about to join NJE are for the moment immune.
The NJA agreement is out in the public domain.
The scam i'm going to bust this time is that recession is a social tool to quell the workers. Its a cycle, not a bicycle. When the going gets good, there's a slump. Whoopee, the rich stay rich and the troops get stuffed. Get over it, that's life and always has been. :ugh:

[Flintstone]

scambuster, economic genius :ok:

Now is the time to be brave and buy, sell at the top in a few years. T'was ever thus.

[mountain-goat]

Truly share everyone's disquiet at the dreadful business cycle we are pretty much all in. 40-45% of the world's wealth has been destroyed in the past 18 months as has been recently commented in the financial press. Normally, the rich do ride the turbulence better in relative terms but this time round they've taken a fare old amount of icing to let them climb anywhere near a jet stream to piggy-back home quickly. It's not all doom and gloom; innovation and yes even greed can't be capped for long. Human nature is what it is and entrepreneurialism will turn this round in due course. In the same way the media IMHO haven't helped and only speeded up the slow down; when the reverse eventually comes those glimers of hope will be transmitted (hopefully) nearly as quickly around the globe. It's not so obvious but even in these ugly times opportunities will eventually prevail. Chin up all!

[northern boy]

Oh bugger, I was the victim of redundancy after OBL and his mates decided to remodel Manhattan. I was young enough then to survive and find other employment, if it happens again 8 years on, rhymes with "clucking bell"

As for seniority, it did nothing to protect me and many others last time round, we were on the "wrong fleet" and got axed, with the blessing of the union I might add. Maybe this time I'm on the "right fleet" as I seem to fly most tours. Better prepare for the worst though. I wonder if B & Q need anyone to sell drills and things?

Best of luck to all concerned. Sympathy doesn't pay the bills but there is life outside.

[doubleu-anker]

Who are conspicuous by their absence, are the persons on this site, ready to lay down mind, body and soul in defence of NJ.

Maybe they are feeling a little uneasy at the prospect their "efforts" have not been enough.

[Flintstone]

In his defence (I can't believe I just wrote that) the main banner waver has been banned in all his personae but I doubt he'd have much to say this time anyway.

The sad part is the crew are being led by the nose. Few above the rank of fleet manager give a toss about them, just their own bonuses. Whatever is going to happen in terms of T&C or crew reductions has already been decided by 'them' and if there's any negotiations with employees it'll be for show only. All as predicted several years ago when the NJA union leaders came to Europe and when many people shouted down one of their own as a scaremonger and madman.

I write this with absolutely no pleasure to those who ridiculed the person in question but you owe him (and anyone that's been in NJE for more than six months knows who I'm talking about) a huge apology. He stuck his neck out for you and in addition to being snitched on to management by a so-called 'colleague' was howled down by the very people he tried to help. Has anyone had the decency to apologise and admit to him that he was right?

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

Well, maybe we are just tired of arguing with people who have already made up their mind. There was talk about the CPS not being paid - it was. There was talk about the inflation rise not being paid (and thereby the contracts broken) - it was paid.
In the end, it comes down to personal views. If you think that NJE is bad, bad, bad and anyone who thinks otherwise is brainwashed, there is nothing to talk about, really. So, I will not ask you how you noticed a change in tone by the management and so on. I just propose a bet to you, Flintstone: I bet that I´ll still be employed at the end of the year. Being one of the new-joiners on one of the small-cabin fleets, I should be one of the first to go. Should I loose, I´ll admit it in this very forum that I´ve been very wrong; I expect the same from you, should you be wrong (which I - truth be told - hope). So, you wonna bet?

BTW, I don´t care about how many posts you have, but if you really posted 2 a week, then you´re already on this forum since 1992! That´s incredible - I didn´t even know what internet is in 1992...:}

[Flintstone]

CS. Ok, three a week then. Where are we going with this?


To stay on point, ask some of your longer standing colleagues exactly how NJE management 'negotiate'. History shows that they simply don't, they impose. The Teamsters tried to tell you (them) three years ago. They predicted how the company would union bust with 1) committees, 2) surveys, 3) consultancy periods and 4) 'helpful' co-workers.

1) What's happening right now in Lisbon? Haven't some crew been invited to sit in and 'discuss' certain measures? How's it going? One person told me he was allowed little or no input and was just along for the ride, to countersign measures placed before him.

2) How did the big survey go? Over a year ago now and dragged out over months.

3) What was the company response to the survey results? Well, some subjects were conveniently ignored while others are still being 'considered'.

4) It's common knowledge that emails between members of the would-be union committee landed on desks in Lisbon, London and the States. They were marked and traceable to the person concerned.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck..............

You're being had. These measures are not there for your benefit or because the company care for you as individuals. They are there to buy time and keep you on the back foot. They are commercial tactics taught on courses attended by NJ upper management. How does anyone know this? Because the Teamsters sent their own people on the same courses to see what they were up against. Denial is understandable particularly for those in their honeymoon period but unless you unite and organise you're going to be screwed three ways over a barrel and you won't even know what hit you until they're zipping up their fly afterward. It's absolutely no skin off my nose whatsoever but the naievete of some, even in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, is incredible.

Good luck.

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

So, no bet?:{

[Scratch Pad]

Jeez. You just can't help some people.


http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:kccMZzwLi8IraM:http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/ostrich_head_sand2.gif

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

So, Scratch Pad, are you gonna bet with me? - Regarding the nice picture: Of course I am worried. Of course times are bad. Of course there´s a risk of being fired. Of course no-one is safe (what about you, btw?). But I still don´t think the situation is as gloomy as some people here WANT to believe.

[Flintstone]

Oh, I'll bet with you alright Captain. I'll bet that you will still be there because you're new, relatively low-time (in company) and therefore impressionable, malleable and less inclined to resist change. An HR director's dream come true. Exactly the same reasons that RYR have so many cadets who (additionally) depend upon their jobs to pay their huge loans.

As for NJ meeting their promises in the form of the cost of living rise you speared your own argument. If they were contractually obliged to do so they had no choice (although I think we all know they were somewhat creative in the % used). In the old days they'd have given it a go but they've been sued enough times now to know it would have happened in spades. With the current situation any number of deeds can be done under the guise of saving money and it will be difficult to disprove. They can't go down the route of first in/first out because that will rob them of the very (pliant) people they need ie, new hires and cadets so in a purely academic way it will be interesting to see how they do it. I'd expect reduced working patterns and voluntary unpaid leave before anyone gets fired.

One thing's for sure though, whatever is going to happen to some of you has already been decided. They just haven't told you yet. They'll have contingency plans in stages but once (if) they make 'The' decision everyone else is along for the ride.

[Cpt_Schmerzfrei]

Flintstone, you really know how to spoil a good bet. As it is now, you´ll be right in any case: If I get fired, then you were right in the first place. If I stay, you´ll think it is due to the reasons you stated above (which, if I may say so, are neglecting a lot of other factors and were a bit you jumping to conclusions). :hmm:

And you wonder why no NJE-pilots are participating here?

And regarding the inflation issue - I just wanted to point out that in earlier cases some people here, including you, were always assuming the worst - which is just as far away from the truth as always assuming the best.

You wrote:


Originally Posted by south coast
The OECD inflation rise is part of the contract, if NJ start breaking part of the package they will find it hard to patch up the broken trust.
Because they'd never change contract terms and conditions on a whim, would they? I mean, it's not like they've ever done that before, is it? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif
But let´s leave it to that. You have your experiences with the company (I appreciate that), I got mine. End of story.

[austrian71]

...my offer : to everybody on this site who likes to paint the wall dark : dark master alias DM time is over, mangement tries all to save jobs and will find solutions!
Flinti / bet gainst me> I am a newer captain, high seniority number, I will stay with nje also to the end of the year, as more than 1000 pilots and staff will stay so and longer...ready to bet :confused:

[B-767]

We are all facing possible job loss wether you are flying a private owner or flying for NJE, Unfortunately Flinty is right, not one company can keep on paying so many people for doing nearly nothing and sitting at home.
Let us also not forget that an american owned company has absolutely no problem in furloughing people...So will NJE fire people? I do not think so...will they send people home without payment untill things go better..I definately say yes, for how long? That is the answer that none of us knows..some smart guys say the crisis is over, other smart guys say it is just only hitting us and a lot of corpses are still to be discovered....
Who is right? Well I do not know and will not even try guessing..
Like everybody else I hope to still have a job by the end of the year...
I will feel very sorry for all of us that will go on unpaid and undetermined leave and I hope that I will not be part of it.
For those of us that fly, fly safe...

[Flintstone]

Captain S. Welcome to the world of 20/20 hindsight management.

austrian. Bet on what? You say yourself you're new and therefore less likely to be considered a problem. Your chances are better but wouldn't it make more sense to load the dice in your favour by organising yourselves rather than waiting for the shoe to drop? Would you take off without a viable alternate?

I have always said that if there's one thing NJ have managed to do it's not lay anyone off. Yet. The pressure from BH to not fire will be immense, it's a huge part of their PR in the States though sadly doesn't extend to FSI where instructors are dropped without a second thought (post 9/11 and recently). That's easy to do because the flying public/potential customers don't associate FSI with NJ even though both are owned by BH but it should also tell you that there's another reason they're not laying pilots off. It is not because they care. It's PR and therefore a quantifiable and justifiable expense (to a point).

Where things may differ now though is that NJE is not NJA/NJI who have union protection, NJE was overcrewed (because of a cynical plan by upper management on the french tax deal) long before the downturn and NJE are obliged to continue to take their cadets. Then again they could always falsify the aptitude exam for the whole intake and bin them like they did a certain ex-FA. Ask the HR director and Papa Smurf about that one.

Their contingency plans will have been drawn up purely on a hard-headed financial/commercial basis with no concern whatsoever for individual pilots. Why people still believe, in the face of overwhelming historical evidence, that NJE is a warm and fuzzy employer amazes me.

Why aren't the crew on here? Well at least two say they're keeping their heads down for fear of being identified and being added to the wrong list. Maybe the others are on their own forum that 'someone' helped set up for them? ;)

To put it bluntly it makes no real difference whatsoever to me what happens though it goes without saying I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs. I'm looking at it as an outsider with the benefit of first hand experience of some of the players. Nobody seems to have argued with the points about union busting so I take it you accept them as being so. What you should consider is why would a company go to such lengths to avoid some kind of pilot union/association if they were planning to always play fair?

Honestly, I hope it works out. A swift upturn will be a saviour but your upper management won't lose any sleep should it go the other way.

[Max Burner]

Flintstone,

It is tiring reading your threads. I think you have too much spare time on you hands.

[Flintstone]

Max. Sorry about that. I'm sure we'll both struggle through though.

[Paradise Lost]

Flinster, it's 12 noon on Sunday..........shouldn't you be in church praying for forgiveness?

[Flintstone]

Funny you should say that. I'll be sinning again next week ;)

[HarrysHawk]

I'm looking at it as an outsider

Flintstone - I do sincerely hope that you are getting some serious therapy to help ease the pain of your previous experiences that have left you so very bitter.

[His dudeness]

HarrysHawk, why so touchy?
Maybe Flintstone is totally wrong, yet I fail to see how he and his posts could prevent you and others, especially NJE from "working constructively"

Reading your post several times I come to the conclusion that maybe your underpants are filled. Mine certainly are, even though I´m not with NJE. "My" Airplane has joined the hundreds on the for sale pages. Friends at NJE tell me how little they fly. I sure hope that changes, the sooner the better.(Flints does the same)

[HarrysHawk]

Soz if the post comes across as touchy. Not the intention.

I rarely get drawn into posting in PPrune but browse often. I have simply become tired of Flintstone's comments, which I feel are pretty heavy with ill-feeing towards the company. I'd like to know exactly what the company did to him to make him so very bitter.

My experience has been the polar opposite to the picture he paints. I would not wish to be anywhere else right now. It may be that, medium term, cuts have to be made - God only knows how long this situation will continue. Tell you what, though - we will be one of, if not the last, organisation to begin laying off. Mr Flintstone will undoubtedly call me naiive but I like the culture in the company and yes, I do trust that the management is working with the best of intentions.

I can almost hear Flinty typing already.....predictability alert....

[Flintstone]

HarrysHawk.

Ill feeling? Moi? They bought me a nice car and gave me long service awards. I love 'em ;)

[His dudeness]

Tell you what, though - we will be one of, if not the last, organisation to begin laying off.

Lets just hope it works that way. My old homebase is EDDS (I still live close to it), where DCA has laid off 80+ pilots, shortly after bold statements such as: "we will be the better NJE".
We certainly don´t need more pilots hitting the pavement.

Good luck to all of us!

[barista]

:( I am sad to say the poeple flintstone describes are true. Many times I have seen them say one thing to your face and do the other. Go ask yr colleages in the office how they are screwed again and again. You think we are safe? No.

[Rusty Trombone]

I agree with several of the links, and Flintstone has a lot to offer.
Nothing is perfect and the current industry is reflecting the worst in a long time. No Job is secure and NJE although the big dog in europe is not alone from reductions.
Its time to smell the music, as for other jobs out there its very tough market.
NJE is approx 40% down and the card program was a great success however short lived in an economic downturn.
NJE should look at their overheads, fuel and crewing are the Bulk. Reduction in training in the USA would help, FSI EGLF is offering most types, more TRE/TRI, company car program reduced in lisbon, training functions INDOC etc, everyone can save money. Get rid of the dead wood.
Just take a look at the sunday times rich list nearly 90% have lost millions, wealth lost used to take them to Nice, Cannes, Geneva, London now its back to reality on easy Jet.:ok:

[Flintstone]

...smell the music... :O I like that, mind if I use it?

Speaking of cost cutting, any truth in the rumour that NJE have told cadets that they won't be getting jobs?

[Matsapha]

I keep a sport plane next to a jet center here in SoCal and have noticed a dramatic dwindling of turbines on the ramp over the last six months. I just read on this thread that NJE is down 40%. Do you folks who know this business have any top-of-the-head estimates of how far off current jet activity is compared to one year ago in the U.S.?

[smallfry]

Flint...

Only the ones who haven't started at Oxford yet. The ones who are on their course or in further training are treated as 'in', and as such subject to whatever future options the company might come up with. So whilst they may have a job, like all of us, nothing is certain going forward.

[Flintstone]

Thanks smallfry. I hope they were given suficient warning and didn't burn any bridges. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the end of the cadet scheme even when the upturn comes. It's too bloody risky (for the comapny) as recent events have shown.

[Kelly Hopper]

It carries the same risk as an airline cadet scheme or even someone starting out in this career trying to judge the market years ahead! It's all a gamble and right now everyone is losing.

'Not a fan of NJE but at least someone was prepared to invest in training as opposed to making crews pay for it all! Whether they would do it again however is another matter.

[Flintstone]

Kelly. I agree that it's a nice idea in principle and a great career start for the lucky few, streets ahead of the Ryanair 'buy your type rating' rip-off but it doesn't compare to the other schemes you mention here.It carries the same risk as an airline cadet scheme......

Most airlines running cadet schemes are in profit and have been around for decades neither of which applied to NJE when they introduced this scheme. Their cadets also pay in full for their licence training so it's not really some great magnanimous gesture, more of a folly.

I'm glad that the first few cadets got the benefit but it's proving to be expensive in that qualified company pilots already struggling, and in some cases failing, to maintain their 90 day requirement are seeing precious sectors being given to the cadets (which is no slur on the latter by the way). The situation has not been helped by other company decisions (Flintstone's posts, ad nauseum) that saw them overcrewed by about 300 and of course the current market. As I said, I hope none of the would-be cadets burned any bridges and that the company honours it's deal with them when things improve. If it were me thoughI'd be taking a long, hard look at the whole scheme with a view to cancelling it. Allow all those through who were promised and file the whole thing away never to be spoken of again.

[Ispahan]

Just to clarify what really happenned...was one the selected of the last selection process about to pass Compass at Oxford....didn't say that I was IN the course yet but just passed the first step when me and other mates in the same situation received this from OAA:

1 October 2008
Dear XXX,
We regret that we have been advised by NetJets Europe (NJE) that the current market instability, and in particular the uncertain impact it is having on all airlines, means that NJE believe it would be imprudent to go ahead with the cadet selection programme scheduled to begin next week. Consequently, NJE have requested OAA to cancel the selection arrangements.
NJE have stressed that their plans for continued growth remain in place, but the company nevertheless considers it sensible to limit short term recruitment commitments pending the restoration of market stability. Thus, whilst NetJets remains firmly committed to the successful ab-initio cadet programme entered into with Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA) in 2006, it has taken the decision to temporarily suspend new cadet selection and therefore not to run the Stage 2 selection process planned for next week.
It is not possible at this stage to estimate the duration of the suspension, but NJE believe it unlikely any new candidates for selection will be invited to Stage 2 within the next six months. When the programme is restored, all applicants who have applied for this round will be invited to reapply should they so wish and if they still meet the eligibility criteria.
At this short notice, both NJE and OAA are conscious of the disappointment the cancellation of the cadet selection programme will cause.
In further recognition of the disruption created by the short-notice cancellation, OAA is also willing to offer Skills Assessment Free of Charge to those individuals who have confirmed their attendance at the upcoming Stage 2 selection and who still wish to attend in the next 2 weeks (subject to available slots). OAA will also reduce the standard charge by 50% for those who have already made payment under the Netjets scheme, if they wish to attend for APPFO Skills Assessment during the period from 20 October to Christmas 2008. Finally, OAA will refund in full the NJE selection fees already paid by those who elect to withdraw from the competition. As you will appreciate, time is short to rearrange the skills assessment process for next week and it would be helpful if you could please confirm whether it is your intention to now withdraw, or attend for skills assessment as you are welcome to do, no later than 1200 hrs on Friday 3rd October. Please use the contact details shown below.
We very much hope that the measures we have proposed will go some way to offsetting the effects of the cancellation. Please do not hesitate to contact any of the following, at any stage to discuss the options or to seek clarification of the current situation. We will give you a courtesy call in the next few days if you are not in touch with us in the meantime. "

I'm not blaming anybody for this - I'm completely aware that we're not valuable for the company and appreciate in a way their decision of not enrolling anyone whilst not being sure to offer a job at the training end. Oxford has also been completely fair with us.

NJE is still a dream company for me considering all the aspects of the job and all the different pilots feedbacks that I got...But I'm also quite realistic and not hoping so much...or at least trying to!