BA to sell Concorde to Dubai?

[ORAC]

The Times: BA may clip Concorde’s wings and sell her to Dubai (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6054915.ece) :suspect::suspect::suspect:

There is some corner of a foreign desert that is for ever England. Dubai already has the Queen Elizabeth 2, the world’s fastest cruise ship, and now it is bidding for Concorde, the fastest airliner.

Forty years ago tomorrow, the British version of the graceful delta-winged aircraft took to the skies on its maiden flight. The 22-minute journey made by 002 from Filton, Bristol, to Fairford, Gloucestershire, prompted an outpouring of national pride that swept aside complaints about the cost, soot and, of course, the deafening roar.

Yet the anniversary celebrations will be overshadowed for many Concorde enthusiasts by the disclosure that British Airways may betray a promise to put a Concorde on public display at Heathrow and instead cut it into pieces and ship it to the Gulf.

A Dubai-based consortium, advised by former BA Concorde crew, is planning to turn the aircraft into a tourist attraction, possibly on one of the manmade palm-shaped islands. It would be jointly marketed with the QE2, which was sold to Dubai last year to become a floating hotel.

The aircraft’s wings would have to be sliced off before it could be loaded on to a ship.

BA grounded its seven-strong Concorde fleet six years ago and gave six to museums. But it kept one, Alpha Bravo, and for the past six years hid it away behind the airline’s engineering base at the eastern end of Heathrow. Only those who know where to look will see the distinctive slender nose.

By contrast, an Air France Concorde stands proudly on a plinth outside the airline’s headquarters at Charles de Gaulle airport, Paris. Another one is preserved at the Paris Air and Space Museum by former engineers who regularly run the electronic and hydraulic systems.

BA ordered in 2003 that Concorde’s systems should be disabled. Jock Lowe, the marque’s former chief pilot, accused the airline at the time of undermining efforts to operate heritage flights.

Despite making up to £20 million profit a year from Concorde during 27 years of commercial flights, BA is refusing to help any of the groups seeking to get the aircraft back in the air. It has repeatedly rejected requests to publish a feasibility study. BA claims it showed that it would be too expensive, but it will not share the figures with the Save Concorde Group, which believes it could raise sponsorship for a return to flight. A BA spokesman said: “It is an internal document and wasn’t intended to be shared. It has commercial information in it.”

The airline has also been distancing itself from Concorde in its branding. Two years ago, BA removed a model of Concorde from a roundabout on the approach road from the M4 to Heathrow where it had been for 16 years. It has been replaced with a model of an Emirates Airbus A380 superjumbo.

Ben Lord, of the Save Concorde Group, said: “Sending it to Dubai would be a kick in the teeth for Britain’s aviation heritage. Chopping off its wings and putting it on a ship would be the final insult.”

A source close to the Dubai consortium said it would spend several million pounds restoring the aircraft’s interior, much of which was removed and used as spares on other Concordes. He said: “If any Concorde was going to return to flight, Alpha Bravo would not be the one because it did not have the safety modifications made to others after the Paris crash in 2000. It would be very well taken care of in Dubai.”

BA admitted that it was considering removing Alpha Bravo from Heathrow, but refused to comment on its discussions with the Dubai consortium.

[Load Toad]

What are they going to do with it when they've got it - house a thousand migrant Bangladeshi workers in it?

[Ian Brooks]

G_BOAC looks great in it`s own hangar at Manchester at the viewing park

Ian

[captjns]

With their economy in a graveyard spiral, I'm suprised they would go for the Dirhams for a show piece.

[gordonroxburgh]

G_BOAC looks great in it`s own hangar at Manchester at the viewing park
Just a shame the airport decided to make the chap who looked after her redundant!. He was also responsible for ensure that the Trident was saved from the scrapman at Heathrow and moved to Manchester.

[JimmyTAP]

Ben Lord, of the Save Concorde Group, said: “Sending it to Dubai would be a kick in the teeth for Britain’s aviation heritage. Chopping off its wings and putting it on a ship would be the final insult.”


The other 6 preserved in the UK don't mean anything then?

[woodpecker]

Just a shame the airport decided to make the chap who looked after her redundant!. He was also responsible for ensure that the Trident was saved from the scrap man at Heathrow and moved to Manchester.

Just my thoughts gordonroxburgh

All the effort to stop BA chopping up the Trident Three were led by one chap. He arranged to have the aircraft reduced to movable parts and transported to Manchester where it was "rebuilt".

Whats more he also left BA, moved to Manchester with his family and restored the aircraft to a condition we, who flew the aircraft, would have loved BA to maintain the fleet (with the same TLC, inside and out).

There was also another ex BA aircraft that he was responsible for, the Concorde. That too was kept in excellent condition, being washed more often than my car!!

Alas now that the Concorde is under cover the Trident will rapidly deteriorate as the chap is now "surplus to requirements", made redundant to you and me.

I am told that BA still owns all the Concorde's, if so sell the Manchester one, after all it only visited there on the odd diversion/jolly. If it wasn't going to be in the plans for Terminal Five then it should have replaced the model rather than the A380 at the approach to the tunnel. After all it's a part of the countries aviation history, not just BA's

You chopped up the fleet museum at Cosford (B707, Trident One, BAC111 etc), come on BA look after the "old flagship" at Heathrow. It would be rather better than the collection of photos on some PC that you call the "British Airways Museum Collection" (click for the link... British Airways Museum Collection (http://www.bamuseum.com/))

[JEM60]

Oh no. Thats MY Concorde, G-BOAB. Spent time as SLF on the Flight Deck with my Video camera in flight and slightly p...ed [free champagne. How dare they sell it without my permisiion.!!!!

[captainspeaking]

Oh come on, people, let go of the past, can't you? All this Heritage crap - it's just crocodile tears. We need to preserve our species, not clumping old relics of our post-industrial, inglorious past. Embrace the Now - it's the only one you get.

[l.garey]

A bit off the topic but re the BA Museum (see Woodpecker, above).
I was there a few weeks ago doing some "serious" research. They are a devoted, knowledgable and cheerful bunch of unpaid volunteers. If I understand right (and don't quote them on this) they get very little support directly from BA. They have an amazing collection of memorabilia (including a Concorde nose cone).
What is more they hold the BA Archives. Hundreds of files of documents going back to Imperial Airways and beyond. On a par with the National Archives in Kew. I was able to find some original photos of the opening of Sharjah Airport in 1932 and its first flight in by HP42. And all the data on the loss of HP42 Hannibal on its way to Sharjah from Karachi in 1940. And they will feed you with coffee and biscuits while you work.
They are great people and could desperately do with more support from the top brass. And bigger premises to expand into.

Laurence

[HZ123]

This appeal has been doing the rounds since Gail Redwood was the BA Company secretary and will continue I imagine until the day BA can palm it off to Hendon or Duxford. No room for sentiment least of all now. Having been there a couple of times it seems a shame that some of the stuff could / should be exhibited in T 5, BA's home.

[Opssys]

Treasure the Past, Manage Today and Plan for the Future. Hmm 0 out of three for BA?

[sidtheesexist]

Captainspeaking - with due respect, disagree wholeheartedly with the sentiment of your post. I fly to CDG on a regular basis and have to say that the French have done a grand job in the way they have mounted one of their fleet on pillars with the gear down - it's (in my view) a fitting tribute to an aviation icon. Why can't we (BA) do something comparable? Cost? Enthusiasm? It beggars belief it really does. We've now got the Emirates A380 on the tunnel rdabt, why can't we have AB mounted on the big grass rdabt at the entrance to T5? Would look great............ :(

[deltayankee]

Why can't we (BA) do something comparable


Not can't but won't. These days decisions are taken not by bold leaders with vision but by bean counters and they are not going to spend money on something they don't fly anymore. And more likely BAA will rent out the spaces around T5 to any airline that can afford to have their model placed there.

One of the nice things about France is that passion can often trump economics. Its not just at CDG. Look also in Hall 3 at Marseille-Marignane and there is one of Henri Fabre's Canard floatplanes hanging from the ceilng.

[Load Toad]

...does he know? He could be looking everywhere for it completely nonplussed.

[deltayankee]

...does he know?


I think he was still around when it was first hung up. He lived to be over 100 in spite of escapades like making the first floatplane takeoff in March 1910, also the first time he had ever tried piloting anything.

Henri Fabre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Fabre)

[411A]

Considering that there are piles of metal junk in the Emirates already, what is another one...just a bit of trash.
It's too small to make into a restaurant or disco, anyway.
A small bowling alley, perhaps?

[ZeBedie]

What a bitch :E

I look forward to seeing the last Tristar being turned into saucepans :ok:

[one11]

Meanwhile in the parallel universe of Lufthansa..........

Lufthansa's restored Starliner to be airborne in 2011 (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/23/319229/lufthansas-restored-starliner-to-be-airborne-in-2011.html)

[411A]

saucepans

Hardly...at least the 'ole TriStar earns it's keep, quite unlike the lawn dart AKA Concorde.
Never made a profit...altho it was a 'reasonable' enginerering feat.
Maybe.:}

[LHR27C]

Hardly...at least the 'ole TriStar earns it's keep, quite unlike the lawn dart AKA Concorde.
Never made a profit...altho it was a 'reasonable' enginerering feat.

Rubbish, Concorde made a healthy profit for BA for many years.

[tubby linton]

As this subject is about Concorde and the Middle East,I went past the Iran air office in London today and they have a model of one in their c/s in the window!

[411A]

Rubbish, Concorde made a healthy profit for BA for many years

Of course it did...after being provided to BA at nearly a cost-free basis.
All aircraft should be so lucky.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[LAS1997]

I think its a good idea for the Concorde to go to Dubai. It has a better future there than here in the UK. BA dont have the money to do anything with her. I am very pleased that she is going to the Middle East. People forget that the first scheduled flight for Concorde in 1976 was to Bahrain, not New York and we should thank the people of the Middle East for their support. OK the route did not last for long, but it was a start.

So as Dubai has the QEII, why not a Concorde too? They have the money to turn it into a major attraction. Good luck to them!

[HZ123]

I to commend the plan of sending it to the middle east. While we are on BA bashing the UK in all has a poor record of keeping its history intact. The UK spends its money in better humanitarian ways housing the weak, lame, and those that cannot work because they speak no English. BA wanted Concorde in the same way we were landed with BAC aircraft so its was scant compensation to get lumbered with yet another a/c that had to be hangared every night at vast costs. Who less could the government have forced to fly it?

[razorrawe]

Surely the plane belongs to the British tax payer as it was just about given to BA They made there money out of it so it should be up to us whats done with it not them trying to make a quick buck because there not making such huge profits as they would like as:mad:les

[falcon12]

Move it to Palm Island! Just imagime how long the metal moths would take to reduce it to an unsafe condition with all that sun, sand, salt, spray and rain. Then where's your investment gone.

[gordonroxburgh]

Of course it did...after being provided to BA at nearly a cost-free basis.
All aircraft should be so lucky.

BA bought Concorde for proper money (23M a pop) in the 1970s, Sure BA was state owned and this meant they took 7% of Concorde profits. When the government finally had enough in 1984, BA pains £16.5M to buy the government out.

The government then made a mint when BA was privatised in the 1980s.

Over the course of its life, the best figure is that Concorde made a profit of over one Billion pounds for BA. Eg 50M a year for 20 years. If you assume a 40% load and a seat price of £4000, you take over £200M in revenue.

So Before anyone else jumps up and down, take note of all this and work out why Concorde was important to BA and UK PLC

[BEagle]

For all her faults, I reckon if MrsT had still been PM at the time, 'Skippy' would have been summoned for a no tea / no biscuits handbagging to be told he would keep Concorde flying.....

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

BEagle.. perhaps. But it wouldn't have been for much longer if what BA engineers have told me.

On Wednesday I attended an absolutely superb day at RAeS London to celebrate Concorde's 40th anniversary. A day of presentations, anecdotes, and humour from many who designed, built, maintained, and flew this wonderful aeroplane. Jock Lowe's presentation on 'Operating economics' bears out what Gordon has posted above.

Very well done to all at RAeS who made the day happen!

But BA ex-Concorde engineers I spoke to at the event said it was becoming very difficult to muster sufficient aeroplanes for the service towards the end, such was the unreliability rate. Egine reliability, for instance, was in the order of 1/100 of that of modern fan engines (that includes the intake and nozzle system, the malfunctioning of either being effectively a failed power plant, though the base engine was pulled off the wing for heavy maintenance at very frequent intervals).

It was a superb machine, and we enjoyed it in service to 27 years, which ain't bad.

I'm happy to remember her as she was, almost 3 decades of safe operation with BA, rather than if they'd pushed it a bit longer and risked a not so pleasant end to the service. My real regret is that the economics of developing SST airliners means we're unlikely to see another for a long time yet.

SSD

(Involved with AC at Manchester in our superb new facility. And Manchester's claim for a Concorde? far from only seeing a few diversions, MAN is second only airport to Heathrow for Concorde ops in UK, many of them charters).

[Load Toad]

'Skippy' would have been summoned for a no tea / no biscuits handbagging to be told he would keep Concorde flying.....

She could be a right joker couldn't she - she probably would do that whilst in the next breath she'd totally destroy British manufacturing industry.

[Conc]

BEagle, Here, Here! Concorde and the Spitfire are two of the most iconic aircraft ever and we British should be proud of them. If BA won't keep the old girl at Heathrow fine but find her a good home in the UK.

[BEagle]

ba must not be permitted to move any Concorde to grace the tawdry, nouveau-riche world of the Jumeirah Janes.

ba lost its pride in being the UK's number one airline when it embarked upon the 'world' nonsense and biz-whizz kids starting ruining it.

I will never fly with ba for 2 reasons:

Dirty Tricks
The murder of Concorde

[HZ123]

Here at BA we can honestly say we have not missed your business. IF dirty tricks worried you so much then I cannot imagine the stress you must be feeling over the Banking crisis and our honest MP's. You will always be welcomed back.

[3REDS]

I think the Arabs want it in a bid to fly people in to Dubai faster than they are leaving:}

HZ123Here at BA we can honestly say we have not missed your business

Really!! BA's share price dosen't reflect your view and why is BA's no longer marketing itself as 'the worlds favorite airline'.

Will the last one to leave please turn off the lights.

[BEagle]

I've no doubt that ba flight and cabin crews do a great job and have high standards.

It's your management with whom I have issues.

So that's 489 Business Class flights over the last 6 years which I've flown with other airlines instead.

I'd sooner fly from anywhere except the awful Thiefrow; however, when I do it's nice to catch a glimpse of the glorious Rocket by the maintenance hangar - and to recall what an astonishing feat of technology it is. But as for that hideous Airslug model in some foreign airline markings squatting like a cuckoo on the Concorde roundabout.....:yuk:

[MarkD]

HMG could probably buy all the examples back from BA for historic purposes for a thimblefull of what has been spent on reckless banks, not to mention what is spent on so-called art these days.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

HMG could probably buy all the examples back from BA for historic purposes for a thimblefull of what has been spent on reckless banks, not to mention what is spent on so-called art these days.

Disregarding why HMG would want to do that, or what they'd do with 7 diversely-located Concordes, I think you'll find the contracts between BA and the museums might preclude it. Manchester has spent a great deal of money on its Concorde facility - they would not be best pleased to have the aeroplane sold-out from under them before they have had the opportunity to recoup some of the investment, and I would be surprised if they didn't have contractual protection to prevent that.

[Tempsford]

If it was the only one left in the UK then okay, just cause to question, but it isn't and there's not. Let em have it. Only places we or the French should decline are those who refused overfly or put obstacles in the way of supersonic pasenger flight when the a/c were operating. That would seem to have an element of hyporicy in my opinion. Also, the longevity of the a/c should be reviewed at the locations that they are allocated. Under cover if possible and away from sea water definitely. God knows why someone allowed them to put one in NY next to the Intrepid, but hey-ho what do I know.

Temps

[Skylion]

Beagle: It is worth reminding you that Dirty Tricks was never proven. The only money BA paid to Virgin/Branson was in settlement of a libel case, not dirty tricks. It is time you stopped worrying about it and Heathrow and tried T5 and BA again. You could be missing something, especially the terminal. It really is the best in Europe by far,- and BA live there.

[JEM60]

Used T.5 for the first time for long haul last month. Thought it was brilliant. Far better than most of my terminal experiences!!.

[Backoffice]

There is only one place that bird at LHR should end up, where the British Tax-payer can see, touch and admire her for free. If BA can't find the funds to place her in or adjacent to T5 then the Science Museum in London is the obvious location. Concorde was our Moon Landing, let's be proud of it.:rolleyes:

[Seat62K]

Willie Walsh has definitely ruled out Dubai.

"BEagle",
My understanding is that it was the French, not BA, who (if anyone) killed Concorde. I don't mean the CDG accident. BA, it seems to me, always had a more commercially viable operation and was keener to keep Concorde flying after the fuel tank modifications. The trouble was that the manufacturer was not willing to support Concorde and essentially, I think, this meant the French. I had the impression that Air France wanted to stop operations and could not allow BA to remain sole operator. (I could, of course, be entirely wrong about this.)

This would fit what we know about the history of the project - from the French insisting the name be Concorde and not Concord to their demand that a French-built machine was the first to fly. (I'll put on my flak-jacket now, I think!)

I suspect, too, that companies may have become wary of sending their most important personnel on the aircraft after the CDG crash, so perhaps revenues suffered after the return to service.

The fate of -AB should not be left to the bean-counters who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.......Remember the Cosford vandalism?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I don't think there can be any doubt that Airbus and Air France jointly pulled the rug out from under BA's Concorde operation. Having said that, the rug was getting pretty threadbare - the aeroplane had been in service for 27 years and reliability, never a strong point, was becoming a real problem (according to senior BA engineers I recently spoke to who were responsible for the availability of the aeroplane).

I find myself in strong agreement with one, who said "I'd much rather we can look back on 27 years of safe BA ops, rather than have pushed it a few years longer and taken the risk of standing around some smoking hole saying 'we should have stopped it earlier'".

SSD