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Roger Sofarover
7th Apr 2009, 12:03
I have made the mistake today of searching for and viewing (very easy on Youtube) the video of the young woman being flogged in Pakistan for alleged adultery. It really is frightful viewing and of course has related videos which I followed through out of curiosity, eventually leading to a site called toxicjunction that is full of examples of the dreadful inhumanity we as a race are capable of. I am not posting any links feel free to venture, but be warned the graphic examples of what humans do to each other in terms of violence leave nothing to the imagination.

I am left wondering a few things of a deep and phylosophical nature. As a race we are capable of great good, but what seems to be winning hands down is the bad that we are capable of. If there really is a God, then maybe he has this global warming thing just right. We were probably given a limited amount of time to prove ourselves and have spent so much time devoted to finding new ways of how to kill and hurt each other, that we missed the opportunity to put all that effort in to how to survive the Earth's cycles. We have blown it, I doubt we will' pass go' and we will not collect $200.

I have often thought that we need to do much more to protect the Earths resources so that they can be passed on to our childrens children, but even more so we need to develop how we treat each other, we are with a few exceptions a selfish, self centered species. If Global Warming has the potential to 'clean up the Earth' and remove trace of our existance then maybe it's a good thing. Our propensity towards violence is growing and whilst I could worry about my great great grand children suffering through lack of resources, leaving them to face a world where extreme violence and cruelty is becoming more normal is a bigger worry. We cannot survive this global challenge by thinking only of our small pockets of family, friends or peer groups of race and culture. Without a collective effort it is endex.

Maybe now is the time for the 'visitation' from whatever or whoever is out there that would make us realise that our man made boundries on maps and segregation by skin colour and belief is of zero importance or consequence.

Global Warming, bring it on! (not that we can stop it as it's not man-made, but we could survive it)

Just a thought.

I think I need to get back to work!

Helicopterfixerman
7th Apr 2009, 12:15
I won't begin to comment on the rest of your post, I'd be thir too long but


As a race we are capable of great good, but what seems to be winning hands down is the bad that we are capable of.


Maybe we just have better ways of being aware of "the bad" than we did before and the good/bad split is no different than it ever has been. You honestly believe the acts and activities you found yourself watching haven't been commited since time immorial?

Just a thought to ponder.......

tony draper
7th Apr 2009, 12:22
I would be greatful if you could hang fire on doomsday for fifteen years or so,that should see me out, frankly scarlet after that, I wont be giving a sh!t.
:rolleyes:

candoo
7th Apr 2009, 12:34
Roger

Let me take a really, really wild guess you are in your mid-forties - if not I offer my profound apologies either way.

Absolutely agree with Helicopterfixerman so much to discuss in that post.

My belief is that we are now so exposed as a global community that when the butterfly flaps it's wings in Australia the rest of us know about the outcome before it happens.

Sh1t happens, always has and always will, we are just made very much more aware of it.

Seldomfitforpurpose
7th Apr 2009, 12:40
I spent the last hour trying to get my head round why someone would get out of bed, actively search for and watch such stuff, and I am still no closer to an answer :confused:

Cheerio
7th Apr 2009, 13:31
Interesting thoughts Roger, but I think its nature and luck rather than some interventionist deity that ultimately determine our fate. Maybe you meant 'God' in the same Hawking-like sense. In any case that is not important.

Inhumanity has always been a specialisation of humankind. As is some fatuous concept of 'rights'. Rights go out of the window the moment your belly is empty.

But what I very much agree with is that we have a finite time to get our sh!t in order before we as a species are seriously stress tested. Who knows what or when, but it will happen. Our present arrangement is going to cause a whole lot of suffering sometime.

Where is that small technological global society we ought to be by now, capable of living sustainably and in equilibrium? We don't have the vision or stomach to make it happen. It's far too uncomfortable an issue to raise. It needn't be some eugenic right-wing utopia. Failure to address this will result in a retreat to self interest. Nature will eventually provide, but it won't be nice. This is a vast subject, but it may well be that intelligence (or more likely the failure to use it) is an evolutionary dead end.

Roger Sofarover
7th Apr 2009, 14:05
Candoo

Let me take a really, really wild guess you are in your mid-forties - if not I offer my profound apologies either way.

No apologies needed, you are 100% correct.:{:{I am displaying signs of mid-life crisis.

Seldom

spent the last hour trying to get my head round why someone would get out of bed, actively search for and watch such stuff, and I am still no closer to an answer

Actually it was more towards the end of the day where I am and It has been on the news here a lot, so I just googled it as I normally do with frequently repeated news items and hey presto, youtube is your friend.

Mr D
I am sure you have a lot more than 15 years to do, you don't get off that lightly;)

Helicopterman

Yes You are right, we are just more aware of world events these days by virtue of the media. We have always been a bad lot, and I was thinking that as I was typing. But the new media awareness in itself accelerates the idea and concept of violence on a massive scale. As an off the cuff example, take the Danish cartoons. 150 years ago, a similar incident may have led to a small scale protest in the vicinity of where it happened, and perhaps some pretty ugly occurrences. We however ended up with violence on a global scale and protests involving many millions. Maybe we have just stepped up a few gears on the journey towards self destruction.

OFSO
7th Apr 2009, 14:15
RS, a nice thought-provoking post. My own belief is that we are given our lives here to make of them what we will, and that although God is "pleased" (if I can use such a banal word) when what we do is in accordance with His wishes, it is up to us to make the choices and live with them. There wouldn't be much point in life if a super-benevolent God reached down and put right every mistake, error, or mischance, now would there. One might even say that denying one's use of free will is a sin. So we have free will, and we MUST exercise it - I think people who surrender their lives to a blind obedience are mistaken (even though that also is a choice) and with that comes inevitably "taking the consequences of your choice".

Doesn't sound like a mid-life crisis to me, I'm 20 years older than you and still ponder on it, and still have moments when through disgust for humanity I can't bear to turn the news on or read a paper (to be honest, these moments last about one minute and then I do !)

All we can do is try to do our best, I think "walk softly and carry a big stick" sums it up if we add "and use the big stick as sparingly as possible".

Don't worry, Roger, it will pass - to quote my dear old mum "it'll all be the same in a hundred years".

R

Helicopterfixerman
7th Apr 2009, 14:16
The Danish Cartoon example falls into the same category as my earlier post. We, globally, are more aware of issues (I wouldn't go so far as to call the cartoons "bad", some muslims may disagree). In days gone by, such cartoons or their equivalent would only be seen or heard about locally. In this example they were broadcast all around the world within days, if not hours, hence a global reaction, not just a local one. I do think you're reading far too much into this, but that's just my opinion, no offence intended.

Storminnorm
7th Apr 2009, 14:31
I think this thread is very depressing.
It makes the mistaken assumption that we are not far off
the end of the World.
There may be some that actually DO believe that is the case,
but I'm afraid that they are sadly mistaken. Including that dim
sack of sh*t Al Gore.
The World has been lurching it's way round the Sun for something
like 4500,000,000 years, and our little contribution to "Global
Warming" is just a piss in the Ocean compared to the crap that
has been pumped out into the atmosphere by volcanos and
earthquakes.
Yep! It does seem the things are warming up at the moment, but
it's just part of a normal cycle of the planet.
It appears that Solar activity at the moment is practically Zero.
Again, a normal cycle.
Only a couple of hundred years ago people were holding FAIRS
on the FROZEN River Thames. Mini ice-age? No, just effin COLD.
Snap out of believing all this doom and gloom garbage.
It's all a load of Cr*P. Get a proper life FFS! Cheer up!

As for man's treatment of his fellow human beings, T'was ever
thus, and will remain so as long as Beelzebub has dominion
over the Earth. Or so the good Book says.

But in the mean time, look out far intergallactic goats.

bnt
7th Apr 2009, 14:54
I still think Population is a driving force behind much of the suffering in the world today. Not so much globally, but on a national or local level: how many people can a country support, at a decent standard of living, without trashing the country? The population of Ethiopia might be roughly the same as Germany's (~ 80 million), with 3x the land area of Germany, but if people can not survive there, there are too many. Stop breeding, OK?

War is no longer a solution, since there is no more lebensraum: as the USA has found out, "winning" is only the start of the problems, when there is an existing population that you now have to support (or face War Crimes trials if you neglect). Migration is no longer the solution, not in the kinds of numbers we're talking about now: we might see a "lifeboat effect", where migrants sink the very prosperity they were seeking. (See Lifeboat Ethics (http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_lifeboat_ethics_case_against_helping_poor.html), an article from 1974.)

The way it looks to me: just because the dire predictions of certain population alarmists (Malthus, Ehrlich et al) have not come to pass on a global scale, most people think that means population is not a real issue and can be ignored. Or, if you talk about population, some people think you're talking about killing people who are already here - I'm not, OK? Don't go there: I'm thinking of future generations. Sure, we're surviving globally, and will continue to survive, but I would hope for more from life than mere survival. :uhoh:

candoo
7th Apr 2009, 15:01
Sure, we're surviving globally, and will continue to survive, but I would hope for more from life than mere survival.

Enough already about survival

We survive to ensure the next generation will be better equipped to deal with the current one, if we don't survive we screwed up.

Roger Sofarover
7th Apr 2009, 15:03
Stromin

Read carefully and you will see this is not a thread on the reasons for global warming as such. I agree with you wholeheartedly (as I said above), the current excuse for global warming is pathetic, and is yet another money spinner on a huge scale, rather than addressing the real issues of mankind's future. If the brains and money currently focused on off setting our bloody carbon footprints, were redirected towards real survival issues then we would progress rapidly. But then again I guess it brings us full circle back to the thread topic, we are a bunch of selfish, self centered creatures who can only see as far as the next couple of million in the bank. Gore has a lot to answer for. He has manipulated fact and peoples inner sensitivities and fears to suit the requirements of his own bank account, a little like the TV evangelist preachers who promise you a special prayer for another $10 000 donation.

You are also correct in that the planet has been around for a gazillion years and that we are of little consequence. If we don't get our act together, the planet will make way for the next experiment and we will be out.

Helicopterman
The Danish Cartoon example falls into the same category as my earlier post.sorry, I didn't communicate that very well, it was meant to, I was agreeing with you.

OFSO

Nice!

brit

good points, what are we now 6 billion with it set to rise to 9 billion in the next 50 years or so? I was talking to a really old boy (85-90) in a fishing village I visited recently in Asia, and he said when he was a lad when you threw a net in you would almost always pull it out full of fish, he said nowadays you can go for days without catching anything. He said we have emptied the ocean and in a few years fish will be a luxury few can afford. Maybe if the global cycle doesn't get us, we will starve to a sustainable population.

Storminnorm
7th Apr 2009, 15:08
Roger. I knew that already, but by the time I'd typed all that
out, and realized that it didn't quite fit on this particular thread,
I just couldn't be ar*sed to do it all again elsewhere. So there!!!

ArthurR
7th Apr 2009, 15:13
Can not remember who said it but:

" A good man (as in all mankind) will always be good
and a bad man always bad, But it takes religion to
make a good man bad"

pigboat
7th Apr 2009, 15:30
I have made the mistake today of searching for and viewing (very easy on Youtube) the video of the young woman being flogged in Pakistan for alleged adultery.

The video is a fake. It was made in the same studio that faked the moon landings and the missile hit on the Pentagon.

larssnowpharter
7th Apr 2009, 16:57
the video of the young woman being flogged in Pakistan for alleged adultery.

One is thinking of certain Formula 1 personalities who might enjoy a move to Pakistan. :}

Davaar
7th Apr 2009, 17:01
It was made in the same studio that faked the moon landings and the missile hit on the Pentagon.

Ah! Thanks for that. I've been warned before about believing anything I see or hear in or on the media, and this confirms it.

ChristiaanJ
7th Apr 2009, 17:23
RS,
Interesting topic/thread, even if it see-saws at moments.

I'm with Cheerio : "Nature will eventually provide, but it won't be nice. This is a vast subject, but it may well be that intelligence (or more likely the failure to use it) is an evolutionary dead end."

My (only halfway tongue-in-cheek) remark on that subject is always, that it explains why there are no traces of intelligent civilizations in the universe : intelligence is invariably going to self-destruct in a short time in some way.

The way I look at it, so far only the human species has developed enough "intelligence", and its ancillary manifestations such as abstract thought and language, to have been able to have a major effect on their environment (one small planet), maybe even enough to provoke their own extinction.

Until humans started to "think", and invent tools, and agriculture, and towns, and trade, and religion, and fishing, and transport, and breeding animals, etc. etc., it was the "balance of nature" that kept things going.

Too many predators chasing too little prey, and the predators would starve. A "warm" climatic cycle (solar, etc), and more COČ would be released from the oceans, more plants would grow, more animals would eat the plants, and the predators at the top of the food chain would thrive, but only up to a new "balance level".
(I leave it to the experts to say to what extent some of these processes went "chaotic" in the mathematical sense, but I suppose you get my drift).

Now, humans have "gone forth and multiplied" so fast, that nature cannot really keep up. Natural resources are being depleted faster than they can be replenished. I'm not so much thinking of fossil fuels... we still have a couple of thousand years worth left... but things like, for instance, clean water. Water shortages are becoming commonplace, and what we have left is slowly but steadily polluted with a myriad of toxins. Clean air would help as well, seeing how allergies, asthma, etc. are on a steady increase. Our oceans are being emptied of life, both by overfishing, and again, by pollution.

I can't really see anything being done in a rational and intelligent manner to invert all these trends.

Not only is half or more of the current 6 billion or so population still mired in the Middle Ages or before, without education, and ruled by the fiction that is religion (a great invention, that), but the other half is equally incapable of dealing with the real isssues, and prefers to believe in new fictions such as AGW.

I don't know how long it will take... 50 years, 100 years, 200 years ? before the situation either explodes, with everybody tossing their nuclear bombs around, or implode, with resources running out everywhere, and mass starvation to "cull the herds".

RS,
Sorry, I've gone slightly off on a tangent too.
But as to your original subject, the inhumanity of the human species, you need look no further than North Korea or Zimbabwe, with a fat cat on top, and a well-fed armed mob ("army") to keep the starving millions in check.

CJ

OFSO
7th Apr 2009, 18:46
Well, Storminnorm, "I think this thread is very depressing.It makes the mistaken assumption that we are not far off the end of the World."

Not a bad description of the Southeast UK, at that...

Oh sorry, I thought you said Wales.

(That should get 'em going)

But seriously folks - yes I KNOW this is Jet Blast - but seriously folks, we might all do well to remember this life we are all frolicking around in will not go on for ever as far as all of us are concerned. If any Ppruner thinks different and that he/she/it is an exception, please share it with us.

R

Roger Sofarover
7th Apr 2009, 19:25
ChristiaanJ

I liked that post, don't worry about thread drift, you rised some good points. Interestingly you said

Water shortages are becoming commonplace, and what we have left is slowly but steadily polluted with a myriad of toxins

This will probably be the cause of many future conflicts. The bit about the toxins is valid. It is a not to well known fact that males are apparently already being poisoned by their local drinking water. It transpires that urine from females contains lots of Oestrogen (sp?) as this urine goes down the toilets, in to the sewers then in to the water treatment plant, bacteria take out all the nasty bits and the water is recycled for us all to drink. All the bad stuff has gone from the water, with the exception of Oestrogen, which stays in the water. Males drink the water and the Oestrogen is absorbed. Medical experts claim this has been the reason in the last 20 years for the rapid increase in Man Boobs (seriously). Just one example of how our current lifestyles/population figures are having a potentially long term effect on our species, perhaps even with implications for male fertility.

Nature will triumph and the planet will regenerate, with or without us.

I guess the down side of intelligence as we appear to be applying it, will be a shorter life span for humanity as a species. The dinosours managed 100 million years or so, we will be lucky to have done 10-15 thousand (6500 for the creationists) with most of the damage in the last 200 years.

Storminnorm
7th Apr 2009, 19:36
Just goes to show why you shouldn't drink water.
And look what fish do in it. Dirty little horrors.
Beer and whisky from now on.

V2-OMG!
7th Apr 2009, 19:55
Your comment about estrogen in the water supply ehancing the development of male breast tissue -
if such a high level exists, would it not also affect the onset of puberty, fertility, and the menopause of women?

hellsbrink
7th Apr 2009, 20:00
It ain't just the oestrogen, many plastics that are buried in landfill sites are releasing pthalates, which mimic oestrogen.

It's why there are fish changing sex, etc...


V2, puberty, on average, has been happening earlier in women

Storminnorm
7th Apr 2009, 20:03
So's the Bl88dy menopause!!!!!

tony draper
7th Apr 2009, 20:10
Perhaps it's this ostegeny stuff in the water that has created a entire generation of fat bastards.
:rolleyes:

V2-OMG!
7th Apr 2009, 20:14
V2, puberty, on average, has been happening earlier in women

That, coupled with men drinking.....

Beer and whisky from now on.

....is that Darwinism at work again?

hellsbrink
7th Apr 2009, 20:28
Perhaps it's this ostegeny stuff in the water that has created a entire generation of fat bastards.

I think you have to blame burgers and kebabs for that

tony draper
7th Apr 2009, 20:35
One disagrees,my generation were brung up on a diet of total stodge yet we remained slim and sylph like,well we had to be hadn't we to fit into Spitfires and such,ergo one blames the present podgyness on the lack of a proper war.
:rolleyes:

hellsbrink
7th Apr 2009, 20:37
Or even just lack of excercise, back in them dark ages people had to walk everywhere

tony draper
7th Apr 2009, 20:41
True, unless of course one was a member of the landed gentry and could afford the Tram fare.
:)

hellsbrink
7th Apr 2009, 20:44
And them people weren't exactly skinny

er340790
7th Apr 2009, 20:46
SHE'LL THANK THEM FOR IT ONE DAY!!!



Turban. Smock. Tent-flap.

BenThere
7th Apr 2009, 20:47
Don't you know, though, that estrogen is a necessary nutrient and helps neutralize the destructive impulses of a nuclear armed world patriarchy.

If I did not know this to be true, I would never have agreed to participation in the Chemtrai

alwayzinit
7th Apr 2009, 20:50
My old granny used to say:

"Charity beings at home"

If everyone followed that rule there would be alot fewer starving people in the world.










Taking cover now.

ChristiaanJ
7th Apr 2009, 20:56
Another gem from todays NYT about politicians barging in where even scientists still hesitate to thread.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/science/07tier.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Read it, and keep your salt shaker to hand :ugh: .

Sorry if it's also slightly O/T, but it does show something about why so-called "intelligence" is doomed.

CJ

bnt
7th Apr 2009, 22:38
Your comment about estrogen in the water supply ehancing the development of male breast tissue -
if such a high level exists, would it not also affect the onset of puberty, fertility, and the menopause of women?
According to some reports (http://www.oasisadvancedwellness.com/learning/precocious-puberty.html), yes, and not just oestrogen. Some other chemicals such as PCBs can mimic oestrogen. Oh, and then there are hormones in meat, such as those fed to beef cattle. Yay for Moobs!

hellsbrink
7th Apr 2009, 22:46
I thought the hormones given to cattle were pretty much banned in the UK/EU, but not in the US whee the growth hormones are used? A minor detail.

As you say though, there are so many other things. Pthalates are the most widely known ones as far as female sex hormone imitators go, though. Damn things get everywhere as soon as they hit the water table. But there is no denying that life in the rivers is changing because of all that stuff finding it's way into the waterways after it gets into the water table.

Makes you think that drinking water from a river with a dead sheep/cow a mile upstream is actually healthier