NON UK PASSPORT HOLDERS SHOULD GO!

[BavarianBoy]

I beleive that the UK Govt asked all Airlines for lists of non UK passport holders working as aircrew. As in the USA, should all of the above be given a 12 month period to leave their flying jobs in the Uk? If not non UK passport holders how about non EU passport holders. There seems an awful lot of "foreigners" in Uk jobs at a time when we have Uk pilots facing unemployment. Now, I don't believe this to be xenophobic just a natural step to protect the UK indusrty. After all, if this was in the Southern Hemisphere or USA all Europeans would be told to go! When times get better and a UK or Eu citizen cannot be found to fill a vacancy then we can consider looking outside the EU.

Retreating through long grass awaiting barage!

[CaptainSquelch]

BB,

have you given it a seconds, no half a seconds, thought what would happen to the UK pilot-employment rate if all the worlds pilots with a UK passport would be send back to your little island. Hundreds of high flyingtime very experienced pilots would swarm the market looking for jobs that will certainly not be yours.

Good luck with protectionism. It never worked so far but you never know ....

Sq

[fire wall]

Idiot !!

[HugMonster]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick, BB.

I suspect that, rather than wanting to protect our jobs, it's a security measure in time of war.

Your overt xenophobia does you no credit at all, either. Removing "foreigners" from jobs in UK airlines will not protect the industry.

My last airline had upwards of a dozen nationalities working for it. And it was the better for it. I worked with Libyans, Iraqis, Swedes, Norwegians, Finns, Spanish, French, Dutch, Greeks, Bruneians, even Irish ;) and I can think of no better way to promote international understanding and harmony than to work and make friends with people from all origins.

Unfortunately, as in all times of conflict, innocent people get caught up in things. I am seriously concerned for some of my former colleagues, many of whom have lived in this country almost all their lives.

Furthermore, I know of many, many Brits working elsewhere in the world. Many other countries are suffering the fall-out of the 11th. September. If they are to lose their jobs to "locals", then we are back to square one here. You think that's a good result, to uproot people all over the world, to disrupt their lives any more than is already happening?

The barrage you get will not have its roots in your opinions but rather in the poor logic and prejudiced manner of your thinking.

[Raw Data]

Xenophobia raises its ugly head again, it seems.

For a start, virtually all pilots flying here either have the passport or the right to "live and work". Only a tiny minority do not.

Second, times are tough all over the world, and I have yet to see the commonly-blamed Southern Hemisphere countries throw out Brits who are working out there (they never have, to my knowledge).

Third, what we have in this country (UK) are not "British" jobs, or even "European" jobs. They are jobs for which employers seek the best qualified and skilled applicants. Living here confers no rights whatsoever regarding jobs of this nature.

It seems that some Brits are the last to realise that aviation is a global activity, with a global workforce. Instead of whinging about a "foreigner" getting "their" job, wannabes (for example) should try making themselves attractive enough to an employer that they can get that job on merit.

Finally, it shows a callous disregard for those you would uproot in your quest to protect "British" jobs.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[doubleUanchor]

My Kiwi Dad and a lot of other colonials spent from 1939 until 1945 in and around UK/Africa with Monty helping "take jobs" off you Brits.

Funny we never heard anyone complaining about their presence then??

What a short-sighted view!!

[SQ7000]

Hey BavarianBoy,

You are a sick puppy. I can't believe they let you fly a plane, or maybe they don’t anymore. With a mind like that you're liable to do anything.

Get some help!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Jacksman]

Bavarian Boy may not have said things in a very well thought out way but I know what he means.However not a day goes by now that the subject of conversation on the flight deck is about the dozens if not hundreds of Australian, SA and New Zealand accents heard flying a/c for mainstram UK carriers. There is no level playing field as the average British pilot can not go "down-under" to work but any body with vague ancestoral rights can come here and steal a seat. It is almost immposible to work in France,Germany or Italy if you don't speak the local language AND hold a licence issued by that state. The airline I fly for has an Australian/Italian who until he arrived at our airline had never set foot in Britain- now he occupies a right seat that I believe he should not. End of story!

[SQ7000]

Jacksman,

Can't help it if you can't speak any other languages.

You should have got yourself a real education. ;)

[SENATOR-7]

CAPTAINSQULECH,FIREWALL,HUGMONSTER AND RAWDATA,

WELL DONE, PEOPLE LIKE BB LIVING IN DARKNESS, JUST WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT UK PILOTS LIVING AND WOKING ABROAD THINK OF HIM.
THE ONLY WAY FORWARD,(BB) IS TO GET WHATEVER FLYING JOB YOU CAN GET AND GAIN ENOUGH EXPEREINCE, MAKE YOURSELF MORE ATTRACIVE TO THE AIRLINES.

[HugMonster]

Jacksman, how easy do you suppose it would be for anyone else to hold down a flying job in the UK without speaking English? I'm not talking about Aeronautical English, which won't exactly get you very far away from the R/T, but English as she is spoke?

Furthermore, your post assumes that, because you can't get a job elsewhere, nobody can. This is arrant rubbish. I know of many Brit pilots in the USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, etc.

So please stop talking this xenophobic claptrap and wasting our time.

[Easy Glider]

Bavarian Boy who the hell do yoy think you are? I am a Canadian citizen, hold a canadian passport and fly for a major British airline.I have also lived and worked in the U.K for 28 years. so, I ask you again who are you to say that I should be forced to quit my job in favour of you?

[FL CH]

For those who say how easy it is for pilots from 'Downunder' to get work in the UK need to check out the UK immigration rules. Only those who have parents or grandparents who were born in the UK can apply to work in the UK. Australia has a "Multi-cuture" back ground and the number of "Aussie's" who fit the UK immigration laws is lower than you think. Out of the 80-100 pilots from "downunder" that I know only 3 would meet the requirements to work in the UK.

[wassup]

I think the name bavarianboy says it all !!!
Ein volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer! :D :D :D

[Capt. XXXX]

Jacksman, you are as pathetic a xenophobe as BB. Brits CAN work downunder, god knows how many do already, if you make the points reqiurement for citizenship. Being a professional (sorry, no wannabe's), and speaking English alone qualifies you for most of the required points. The "average " Brit pilot (whatever that means?), already enjoys expatriate status in most countries bar the U.S. And finally, that Aus/Italian pilot you speak of is probably me, so next time , express your views directly to my face, instead of hiding behind your fake little smile, you knob!

[Bill prasifka]

I know for a fact that the US embassy has been contacting the HR departments of major airlines in Europe enquiring about pilots of 'middle-eastern origin'. It is bad enough when xenophobia comes from warped and twisted individuals but when it comes from a state body like that it turns my stomach. :(

[Huck]

Ah, yes... WE'RE the xenophobic ones....

Did you notice the title of this thread?

[foghorn]

Wow, Huck, you're sensitive, aren't you?

The main thrust of this thread is that the UK government has been asking British airlines about pilots of non-British origin.

If the US government has also been asking European airlines about pilots of 'Middle Eastern origin' or whatever isn't that equally reprehensible? In fact, if anything there is an extraterritorial nature about the US request which is not present in the UK government's asking its own airlines about non-UK pilots, making it more reprehensible.

That's if either of these rumours are indeed true, which they may not be.

As for the silly whingers who have latched onto this to bring up the usual moan about 'colonials' etc. working in Britain, well, that is so pathetic that it doesn't even warrant a response.

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: foghorn ]

[horn]

Barvarian Boy/Jacksman
Good to see such well balanced people, with a chip on both shoulders! Having worked and flown in a few different parts of the globe your attitiudes astound me, a tad insecure are we? What do you think would happen to your company if all the 'foreigners' left tomorrow? I hope I have the pleasure of telling you one day as I beileve we work for the same outfit, see you in a crew room soon!

[Lucifer]

Grow up and live in the real world. Nation states are bunk.

[underboost]

forhorn, you're likely right that the US is over reacting to the possible threat of middle eastern pilots. However, it's somewhat understandable that the US might be a little sensitive. After all, did not four aircraft flown by middle eastern "pilots" do their level best to destroy human life in the US? Further, was this action not praised by the overwhelming majority of the residents of the middle east?(and by Muslims world wide). The US government would be stupid not to conduct a threat analysis in these circumstances. If any government doesn't wish to cooperate in this effort, no problem: Keep your aircraft outside US airspace. Perhaps in your view the UK should have been more cordial to the German pilots who visited in WW2. :mad:

[Stagnation Point]

BB & J'man

Are your willys on the small side or what.

If they aren't then you wouldn't be so gutless as to have to hide in this forum and would say what have done in the open where you could be judged for what you are. :(

[Oceanic]

Underboost, Your peurile posting displays a complete misunderstanding of the revulsion shared by the vast majority of Muslims worldwide to the events of 11/9.

[Roadtrip]

Bet there are more Englishmen working outside the UK than non-citizen pilots inside the UK.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

[PorcoRosso]

I am french, I am holding US certificates, and UK Certificates, which entitled me to ask, and to get a JAR certificate ..
I am presently flying a "N" Registered light twin all across Europe (not necessarily to EU members) My girlfriend is from asian origin, and work presently for a Swiss Airline ....I hate xenophobic ideas

Amazing no ?

[erwin]

@ wassup:

He`s talking about non UK passports! So please don`t start that anti german bull**** again.

regards, erwin (a real bavarian boy)

[fms146]

Here we go again...I rarely reply to this sort of verbal garbage but sometimes it is hard to hold your tongue.

Bavarian Boy must indeed be a sad little wannabe trying to make his way into a grown up world. When are you going to let go of this stupid idea someone has taken your job.

Yes there are Australians and Kiwis working here in the UK, as well as many other Nationalities,and we dont need your permission.

If you meet the imigration requirements ,as we do here then I invite you to go downunder and submit your CV to Quantas or VB. While you are there you may as well check out the regionals as well. If you have the required qualifications and prove to be the best candidate for the job I hope you enjoy a long and happy career. If not you may like to go and get some experience and then try again.

I find it very sad that space on this forum can be taken up by such rubbish and yet we cant use the same space to advertise our unwanted items.

[Bill prasifka]

was this action not praised by the overwhelming majority of the residents of the middle east?(and by Muslims world wide).

Come on underboost, are you living on the same planet as the rest of us?

[Arkroyal]

SQ7000

Of course the problem with getting a real education in yhe UK is choosing which of the many available foreign langusges to study. Our system gives us the choice of French or French. Not much use outside France.

In the rest of the world, the choice is English or English. Useful worldwide.

[HugMonster]

And therefore you speak good French, Arkroyal? I hope so, to prove you took advantage of your educational opportunities.

My various nieces and nephews have been offered French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Latin, Greek (both modern and classical), Arabic and Chinese (both Mandarin and Cantonese).

Opportunities do not end at school, either. There are many ways to improve your abilities. Two that spring to mind immediately are night school classes and Linguaphone courses - that's how I've been teaching myself Dutch, for example.

Furthermore, French is of use in rather a lot more areas than France. How about Canada, Suriname, Senegal, Morocco, Tunisia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guadeloupe, S. Maarten, Martinique...?

All in all, your post isn't much use, is it? Wrong on every count... :rolleyes:

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: HugMonster ]

[Viper52]

There would be a very long line of unemployed Brit pilots if every country in the world repatriated them.

BB get a life!!

[flapsforty]

Arkroyal, see if you can get some facts right when you post! :mad:
Rest of the world is only offered English as a foreign language in school? :rolleyes:

In my home country, kids from age 12 upwards can choose between German, English, French and Spainsh at school.
My own kids, living in a different country, can stll choose between English, French and German, or pick all 3 on top of their 2 mother tongues.

The world does NOT end at your national border man!
And anybody working in our industry should be amoong the first to realize that fact, instead of displaying the very ante-deluvian attitudes voiced by some on this thread.

[Capt Pit Bull]

yawn

[BavarianBoy]

Well well well, obviously hit a raw nerve with some of you guys and gals.Glad to see so many responses though.
First of all, I am talking about the UK Govt possibly taking the same action as that of their US counterparts.
Secondly, I am not a wannabe or someone under threat of losing their job to a non EU passport holder, thankfully I am pretty safe in my company.
The point is that in the US they seem to be giving non US passport holders 12 months to either get citizenship or leave their flying jobs. The UK Govt may well do the same.
The fact is that I have heard this discussed in crewrooms up and down Europe, how there are significant numbers of nonEU pilots working in the UK and EU while there are suitably qualified EU pilots available.
My apologies if this offends you but the fact is that many other EU pilots think this is unfair. Why should it be allowed in the UK and Europe and not in the US?
It is just a topic for discussion and am glad to see all your responses.

Still in the long grass..... aghhhhh!!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

&rse

[Tosh McCaber]

What with a lot of the correspondents to this thread having apopletic fits at the thought of Britain taking a hard view at non E.U. pilot employment in the UK, it would be most interesting to find out whether they are E.U. nationals standing up against xenophobia, or, perhaps, Australian, New Zealand, or Canadian pilots working here voicing their opinions? Please let us know!

Tosh (from Scotland)

[CaptainSquelch]

Well BB still:

Good luck with protectionism. It never worked so far but you never know ....

Sq

[Heavens Gate]

At my airline, more than half of the pilots are Brits, several of them holding top positions, most of them not even trying to learn the native language. However I never heard any of the locals complain about the Brits taking their jobs away.

[chiglet]

'Ecky Thump!
What a load of Horses doovers!
A "few" FACTS
1, I applied for an ATC job in the Antipodes, and was told to "go away!", I couldn't 'afford' it??
2, If I apply for a post in "Greater" Europe, and am not a "Native Language speaker", I stand about as much chance as dating Madonna!
3, ANYONE can live and work in the UK,
BUT it is not true t'other way, unfortunately
I stand to be flamed/corrected :rolleyes:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Agamemnon]

Tosh - good question! I suspect all their knees are joined together, as they all jerked at once at first mention of the 'x' word. Political Correctness usually goes hand in hand with naivety - they mean well, but will only understand the big picture as they grow older!

ArkRoyal - Agree fully. My Gujarati evening classes start next week.

BB - Got them going nicely! Ref your actual question, I'm not sure that non UK Passport holders should actually have to leave our shores. It would probably be legally difficult to remove someone from a job once they're contracted for a given time. The onus will be on UK employers when recruiting starts again. Of course, you can bet your life the dreaded 'R' word will then appear!

[Southern Cross]

Well said FMS146. Couldn't say it better myself.

Chiglet - you are just plain wrong when you say that "anyone can live and work in the UK".

If you hold a passport from one of the EU countries then you may work and live in the UK without requiring any permission / work permit etc AND VICE VERSA.

If you are a Commmonwealth citizen eg NZ, Aus, SA (to name but a few) then, if you under 28 years old you are entitled to a 2 year visa and undertake work "incidental to a holiday" during that time. Typical OE ("overseas experience") stuff this not usually applicable to professionals in any field including pilots I would have thought. There are reciprocal rights for British citizens.

If you fall outside these categories then in general, you can be sponsored by an employer
which means that the employer arranges a work visa for you with the Home Office. Usually the grounds for this are that the employer cannot hire a person having a general right to residence in the UK for the job and therefore needs to hire someone who does not otherwise have that right to residence.

There may be other categories in general - perhaps other PPRuNers may know.

But can can anyone just wander into Britain and start work. No. Absolutely not. Just ask any non-EU passport holder that has turned up at Heathrow and told Immigration "oh, I thought I'd just move here and continue my career". "Next plane home for you" would be the generic response.

[Dirty Harry]

BB is sadly correct in what he says, he may not have expressed himself well in his first post, but there is a definite one way traffic of Non EU pilots flying in the UK. I have read the opposition posts with interest, particularly as I would suspect many of them are in fact our overseas guests, the very subject matter of this debate. It is very true that many Brit pilots hold posts in airlines all over the world, but these are largely where no local skill is available to fill the positions. It is undisputed that when locals are available to fill these expat jobs, the expat becomes a redundant requirement. The fundamental problem is that even before the recent events in the industry many UK carriers employed Non EU pilots, many without the right to live or work here. Provision of a level playing field is all that is asked. The situation complained of now is very justified in my opinion. It's very depressing to stand in the dole queue thinking of Non EU pilots flying around Europe.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Really, Dirty Harry?

Well since you're so confident of your facts, why don't you give us one verifiable example in recent history of a UK airline employing pilots that didn't have the legal right to live and work here. Just one single airline, that's all I'm after.

Should be interesting ... as your namesake said "Go ahead punk ... make my day"

[Deadleg]

Well here's my story. Aussie married to an English Rose! Happily living in Aust flying a good a/c in a good company doing quite well. We had our first child in Aust(she has dual citizenship) and the Rose gets homesick, so I leave the company I enjoyed, do all the exams and tests the UK CAA require and 6 months later continue to fly the same a/c in the UK. In the 3 years since then, we now have a boy born in the UK and I have progressed to a command and a line training position with the company. My "vague" right to remain here is now and I quote from my passport 'Given leave to remain in the United Kingdom for an Indefinite Period'. I have paid my taxes & NI and have never claimed a penny in Benefit. So BB and others in the National Front, should I leave my British family to fend for themselves? Think about it ******s!!!!!!!!!!

[Raw Data]

Not quite true, Dirty Harry.

One common reason for Brit expats being employed overseas is lower labour costs (no social security/tax liabilities). There is also the additional carrot of less unionisation problems.

As others have said, if all the Brit expats came home, there would be many hundreds more pilots on the dole queue.

I still can't figure out where you get the idea that jobs in the UK/EU belong to Brits...

[Britmil]

The point is that in the US they seem to be giving non US passport holders 12 months to either get citizenship or leave their flying

Whaaat?? Don't think so, I'm a Brit flying in the states and I haven't heard this rumour.

Any facts to back it up or shall we perpetuate the myth??

[123.40]

I can't wait to fly in Europe.

[ground_hog]

Hey 123.40 it gets even better when the boys are over here playing cricket for the summer, and then there was the world cup for real football (that would be rugby union), Wimbledon was also a good topic of conversation in the hole this year. Then there was the world superbikes, blah, blah......


Only joking fellas, I'm sure one of your guys will win it next year!!

ps an Aussie in the UK in a USA built flying machine, with the right to live and work in the UK (thanks Grandma and Grandpa) and lovin it!!

[The Guvnor]

Kicking out non-EU pilots who are flying UK/EU registered aircraft and holding UK/EU licences - plus the appropriate work permits is a bit of a non starter.

However, I am all in favour of kicking out non-EU aircraft (and crews) working in the EU on wet leases - unless of course their country of origin allows EU airlines to wet lease their aircraft (including crews) into their markets.

Can anyone think of any countries that might apply to? ;) :eek: ;)

[eagerbeaver]

Might there be a big country 8 hours west?

[HotDog]

chiglet,you ask to be corrected. I disagree with your point No.2. Who the hell would want to date Madonna? I also disagree with your point No.3. Whilst flying for an overseas company with a UK hub, I applied for a UK basing which was denied due to my non British ancestry, albeit a Commonwealth citizen. Anyhow, just as well. Who the hell would want to be based in sunny Manchester???

[The Guvnor]

eagerbeaver - dunno what you're flying if it takes you 8 hours to get there! :D ;) :D

[123.40]

ground_hog - I've got the passports out in front of me ... mmm ...lets see.. which one shall I use.. te he :D

[Hot End]

this wind up is a cunning stunt. It's light reading relief to all the international aviation community as opposted to all those who fear that they won the war and all **** begin at Callis.

"I am a European....... but I long for the commonwealth......but, ah s#it..........I want to go to asia & work for the people we used to control - because they still need us..........( and it goes on )

[Huck]

Hotdog! Maybe not date her, but what about a torrid night with all appropriate whips, chains and other appliances? (Give me a couple months first for an intensive workout routine and an antibiotic regimen)

[Arkroyal]

Hugmonster,

I thank you for your post and I take on board all your points. I shall be outside your office with a copy of The Beano down my trousers to recieve my caning! :p

My point was, and I stand by it, that in a normal UK secondary education, you are likely to be offered French as a second language. Specialists may take other languages at the expence of other subjects.

In other countries, English will most likely be taught as a second language.

It follows therefore, that there will be more foreigners with a smattering of English, than Brits with a smattering of any number of other tongues.

It's simply a fact, and I quite agree that other languages are available to all of us. Should I fancy a job in a certain country, I'll learn the language, and just as I'm ready to apply for the job, it's gone. Repeat exercise monthly until retirement in poverty.
:rolleyes:

[Loony_Pilot]

Well lots of differing opinions on this one!!

Regarding the non-UK/non-EU pilot thing, I think that the main problem is that the playing field is not exactly level.

For example I know from my own experiences that trying to get a job in another country is practically impossible, despite the fact that from a "legal" point of view I hold all the relevant minimum qualifications to fly an airliner anywhere in the EU. The language of flying is English and if you do move to another country you'll be semi-fluent in the native language within a few months if you make an effort to learn it.
Most countries in the EU actually give their residents a good grounding in a few languages and I havent met many foreigners that aren't fluent in at least 2 languages.. how many Brits can say that?
I used to teach english in Romania and my 12 year old students had a knowledge of French and English that vastly surpassed that of A-Level students in the UK.

The other point is that the UK seems to be one of the few countries that is not protectionist. I'm sure the reason that I cant get employment abroad (recent events notwithstanding) is that I am simply not a native of that country and they'd rather employ a native than me. I dont have a problem with that, I simply want the same level of protection for myself in my own country

All airline pilots and crew should be able to speak good english anyway so communication on the job wont be a problem

It gets very frustrating to see scores of low hour Dutch/French/German etc etc pilots flying for UK airlines when I know that I simply wouldnt be able to get employed by one of their airlines.

I will never object to non-UK/non-EU people working here if they have married someone British ir if they have a right to residency based on their Parents/Grandparents being British etc etc.

However I do believe there is no justification at all for having Non-EU people working here when there are plenty of our own that can do the same job just as well.

I dont consider myself xenophobic or anti-foreigner in trying to give myself an equal and fair shot at getting a job.. My girlfriend is Dutch and I have American, Cypriot, Romanian, Polish, French, German, Australian and Asian friends so I certainly cant be accused of being xenophobic!!!

Ok I've probably waffled enough.. apolgies if you fell asleep!

Any thoughts or replies appreciated

Loony

[Stellina]

HugMonster got it right,we need to learn to leave in peace with each other, and working together(Asa TEAM!!!!)is only the first step.
Throwing out foreigners we would only start feeling of ager and hate, and make things wors in this already tense times,,

[Oleo]

From 1947 New Zealand gave assisted passage to 76,673 Poms, ...errr British people to immigrate to NZ. We didn't chuck them out during the fuel crisis in the 70's or the slump of the 1990s or the various other recessions or employment squeezes. Now the tide is turning and their offspring, spouses of offspring are going to where the grass is currently greenest.

Fact is, to get an airline job here you have to "have the right to live and work...", I do, full stop.

I am tempted to add "Na Na Na Naaaa Naaaaa" but that would be immature.

[ 31 October 2001: Message edited by: Oleo ]

[itchypuss]

GUV
Are you refering to Air Atlanta

[capt.magoo]

well done chaps,i think BB has got the message,and if i was him ill dig myself a bigger hole,and this time (get into it).

[Flintstone]

And the prize for Wind Up Of The Week goes to Bavarian Boy.

Well done BB. You've managed to rehash an old idea, one that I thought had been done to death, and still get them biting.

Might I suggest that for your next posting you try the old 'Women In Aviation Thing'? ;)

[Slickster]

Funnily enough Fintstone, you've hit the nail on the head. No one objects to women pilots; after all Russia had female combat pilots in WW2. However, I know of one major carrier that has lower apptitude standards for it's female applicants, and will get them through their training whatever it costs. Not exactly a level playing field, and in the long run does nobody any favours.

[Flintstone]

Sad but true Slickster.

I'm not saying that this is rife but I too worked for a company who exercised positive discrimination. The Chief Pilot explained it away by saying that 'X%' of licence holders were female and so he wanted 'X%' of pilots in the company to be female.

Absolutely no truth to the rumour that he then spent most of his time trying to get them into bed (with limited success).

Pretty demeaning for the ladies in question as they were then all under suspicion as to how they got into the company. Some, without doubt, could have got the job on merit and deserved to be there. Others were quite obviously there just to maintain the CP's quota (in more ways than one).

Mind you, I can also think of one or two guys who were absolute muppets.

Wonder how I got in? ;)

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: Flintstone ]

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: Flintstone ]