Gentlemen ,Remove those turbans

[Harris eng]

NEW DELHI: More than a month after the WTC terror attacks,
the American backlash continues. And once again, their
mistaken target are the turbaned Sikhs.

As US airlines resume flights, more than a dozen turbaned
Sikhs have been stopped from boarding planes. The ultimatum:
either remove your turban or stay off.

[Groover]

As much as I agree to the continued slaughter of terrorist " training camps " and the Taleban army , I have to say that some Americans have proven themselves to be the most narrow-minded, shallow and extremely naive people on the planet. I,ve even heard on 123.45 American pilots talking about shooting Afghan pax.

Sikhs are men and women of honour , they have been gaining respect around the world for as long as they have been here and now all of a sudden the Americans can't differentiate between Sikhs and Taleban ??

C'mon guys , wake up and take a good look at yourselves and see how low you "folks" are acting. :mad:

[Bigears]

Have to agree with the above post. I find it very sad that Sikhs should have to remove their turbans or not fly (presumably for fear of upsetting their fellow passengers). Maybe the Captain should make an announcement (with the pax in question permission) to allieviate any fears. Come to think of it, was it only done because pax might be afraid? Did anyone actually complain? Maybe they should be told 'There is as much danger from this man as there is from yourself, he has been through the same checks as you, you are free to leave the aircraft if you wish'. :eek:

[Epsom Hold 2]

Any suggestion that a passenger may be a danger implies that security is useless. If pax think they are not protected they should get out of the airport, not force Muslims or (for god's sake) turban-wearing Sikhs off planes. Disgraceful, ignorant, racist.

[Di - Hedral]

Is the remark regarding the ultimatum of removing your turban not meant as emphatic sarcasm? :confused:

The only case of such pax removal that I'm aware of is the most publicised one of the three gentlemen whose behaviour was alledgedly considered as unacceptable. Is something else really going on? :(

Perhaps someone could enlighten me in my ignorance please :o Otherwise this sounds like a 'wind up'
However, if it's true it is disgraceful!

[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: Di - Hedral ]

[Roadtrip]

Harris eng -

State your source for that "news."

[GeofJ]

Interesting to see the reaction to this news compared to the item about the 3 arab types put off a Premair plane due to nationality - there seems to be a bit of American bashing here. On one case it is a strong righto for the the captain exercising his authority and in this case it is ignorant Americans again? We are all people who make mistakes and stupid judgements and should not all be painted with the brush of ignorance!

Don't misunderstand if this happened it is unacceptable and the vast majority of Americans would definitely not approve Groover. In my opinion if any paz is denied boarding due to nationality all decent pax should deboard peaceably with them. Any airline that will discriminate based on nationality does not deserve the business.

[Blacksheep]

Type casting people is futile. I recently saw a photograph (copyright Smithsonian Inst.) of a Company of the Pennsylvania Rifles serving in the Army of the Union in the War Between The States.

The officers are all what Americans describe as "Caucasian" The men, all wearing turbans and beards, are clearly identifiable as being from Central Asia - if not Afghanistan then certainly one or other of the "-stans." Probably REAL Caucasians. I suppose that Americans from the southern states may have considered them to be terrifying back then, in the 1860's but they were certainly loyal troops of the Union Army and as American as anyone today sitting in Congress, or serving in the US Army. Get in touch with your culture America, and stop trying to put the rest of the world into tidy compartments.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[sanjosebaz]

It's not only in America, guys :confused:

This report is nothing to do with aviation, but shows prejudice is not unique to USA: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_1565000/1565146.stm

[CaptA320]

If the above story is true it is due to the widespread panic which has been caused since 911. To say that the American people in general are racist is a joke and simply not true. A Sikh in the States will be addressed as "Sir", I doubt that would ever happen in his own country or many others for that matter including sadly my own.
If this story is true it is most definitely wrong (as well as illegal) to discriminate against any individuals or groups, however I firmly believe it does not reflect the public opinion in the US.
The acts of 911 were of such an unprecedented magnitude of evil, something that humanity has not ever seen before, we must never forget that and we must stand united around the globe and anounce in one voice that this will never happen again.

After three weeks of bombing Afganistan is the world doing the right thing? Are the perpetrators being punished? I don't know the answere to both these questions. It saddens me however much to see images of innocent children being killed and injured in Afganistan.
In our quest for justice it is imperative we maintain our humanity otherwise we are no better than those who committed the atrocities.
Lets move back and look at the big picture for a moment. We are all one people living on a small planet in the middle of nowhere. Thoughout our history we have done whatever we can to rage wars and kill each other, take over our neighbour's lands and commit crimes agains eachother. Yet together united we have managed to fight diseases, feed impoverished nations and protect our environment. We have what it takes if only we decide to use it.

[YakYak]

Unprecedented magnitude of evil?

I wonder if the dipossessed of Palestine would share your assessment. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[thewwIIace]

remove the turban? but i always thought they were more economical than the piston!

[CaptA320]

YakYak although I sincerely feel that the people of Palestine have had genocide committed against them, I do not compare the events of 911 with the plight of the Palestinian people. The world community stood by and watched for years on CNN innocent childred killed in Palestine, we are all to blame here because this conflict could have been resolved years ago, the problem is there is no money to be made in it's resolve. The world's age old problem, the quest for wealth and power.
As I mentioned earlier, we are experts in inflicting pain and suffering, it's time to realize that this can only lead to our eventual self destruction.
War is easy, peace requires an effort.
To all those suffering today throughout the world because of our inherrent greed I pray for, a better and brighter future for our children.

[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: CaptA320 ]

[Roadtrip]

A320 - You can start with the undemocratic islamic governments, their supported terrorist groups, and their large numbers of 12th century zenophobic islamic fundamentalistin the mid-east and asia. There's plenty of money there. They need to fix their own house before blaming the west for their perceived problems. The Palistinians have a hard time learning that when you start 2 wars against someone and LOSE, and when you support a despotic regime like Iraq, and continue to support blowing up people in random acts of mass murder, then people don't trust you and aren't inclined to give you sympathy. There will never be peace in Palistine until the terror groups are eliminated, which a Palistinian state can/would never do.

[ 29 October 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

[Arkroyal]

Roadtrip,

You said:

'and continue to support blowing up people in random acts of mass murder'

Seen a fair bit of that at the hands of the USN and USAF this past few weeks too.

Or is an american life worth more than an Afghani?

[flapsforty]

YakYak & Roadtrip, if the situation in the middle east really was as black & white as your facile (opposing) posts seem to make out, don't you think that anybody else would have noticed?
Wouldn't the problems concerned have been long solved if it really were as easy as the 2 of you indicate?

Seems to me that CaptA320 is making an honest stab at seeing the various angles and understanding the different outlooks that together form the gruesome quilt currently covering the world.
To solve a problem, understanding all aspects that compose it is surely imperative?

He adds to that a dose of humanity not seen all that often on these pages, and expresses his hopes for a better future.

IMHO his posts deserve better than short, acidy, tunnel visioned nihilistic comments.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Roadtrip has got it about right, and there is no doubt we are in a war against a great evil. Equally, I feel that CaptA320 has got a compassionate heart and speaks for many who are concerned about what is happening. The whole Middle East issue is incredibly complex and is frankly insoluble. Like many people, I feel very concerned about what is happening and am alarmed at civilian casualties but I fear it may be a tragice price that has to be paid.

As someone who has actually flown a number of operational missions over Iraq during the Gulf War, I know the enormous efforts that were made to avoid civilian causualties. I have no doubt that there is no one who is more alarmed by civilian casualties than the US government. I do not deceive myself that righteousness only exists with the USA (I am a Brit by the way), but when push comes to shove they are our best friends. This was not a conflict of America's choosing but let no one be under any illusions - a sleeping giant has been woken and any supporters of terrorism are going to pay a terrible price. The Americans have been very late in arriving on the field of play against terrorism and that has done them no favours. But they are in the game now in a big way and they have my clear support.

[PositionReport]

Yet another anti-American campagin on Pprune, surprise surprise

[Iain]

'and continue to support blowing up people in random acts of mass murder'

Seen a fair bit of that at the hands of the USN and USAF this past few weeks too.

Or is an american life worth more than an Afghani?


It seems the Taleban think so, if they had meet US demands, or even did not attack the US, the US would not be active in their region!
Considering the majority of people in here have some connection to aviation, and it could have been anyones aircraft (maybe yours, or your friends?) which was taken over, I am shocked to hear such a stand from here.

[Alchemy]

I say we should now give the israeli army our full support. The Palestinian people are so greedy they won't even share a shred of land with a people that have been violently oppressed throughout the last century. The palestinians have proven themselves total scumbags as far as I'm concerned.........they dance in the streets when people die.

Admittedly, a lot of americans dislike the palestinians, but do you see us rejoicing when an israeli tanks blows up a half dozen of them? No, because we don't support pointless violence, but any palestinian goverment obviously will.

[Vortillion]

Alchemy

I have never quite understood why the USA gives such blinkered and unquestioning support for Israel. I can only assume that the Jewish lobby has overwhelming control over the government and media, that you never get an unbiased view of whats happening. Do you not think its strange that the rest of the world takes a different view of the Palestinian / Israeli conflict?

Yes the Jews were violently oppressed but they have learned nothing. Israel is a Police state, that routinely orders assinations, detains without trial and ignores UN resolutions. It occupies land for "security" reasons and then build houses on it for zealous US jews who wanna come home.

I am pleased that the UK is standing shoulder to shoulder with the USA in the war against terrorism, but if anything is going to bring down the world coalition its increased US support for Israel.

[Sensible]

So which do you advocate, turning the other cheek or laying down and playing dead then?

[Arkroyal]

Alchemy said

'The Palestinian people are so greedy they won't even share a shred of land with a people that have been violently oppressed throughout the last century.'

Is the boot not now on the other foot? :rolleyes:

[jetjackel]

As an yank I have been as perplexed as anyone else over the years concerning America's blind and aggressive support of Israel. The events of 911 are certainly, to a degree, the results of this. Unfortunately America is a country that has been unable to erradicate drug smuggling and illegal immigrant entry for decades. Stopping the current terriorist movements against it appear to be impossible. My expeiences in the Middle East have shown me that Islam is both intorerent and dangerous to Western culture with a determination to erradicate it. 5 UK citizens of ME descent left last week stating that Islam oversees nationality and joined the Taliban. Think about that. They also stated they would kill Tony Blair if able. Very scary. Whats even more scary is the fact that many Americans believe the proper actions, after the 911 murders, would have been to immediately carpet bomb Afganistan with nukes, when proof was verified that the 'binster' was there. Any further mass murder in the US would have been answered by nuking Mecca. The Islamic world should be appreciative of the US restraint with surgical bombing with a fixed goal. We didn't become the most powerful and financially stongest nation by luck. Believe me if the terriorist activities continue to occur in the US, the future actions might become a "tad" more aggressive.

[JT8]

Jetjackal,

The Taliban represent what percentage of the worlds muslim population? A very small one. I'm not even going to start on your comments on Mecca. :mad: :mad:

[jetjackel]

Related comments, Not mine. The terriorists are waking a sleeping monster, not a sleeping lion. Also seems to me there are a bit more Islamics envolved in this crisis than just the Taliban. In fact can't even think of anything the Taliban has done except support the 'binster', except maybe remove every civil right imaginable to their citizens.

Black Flag Gentlemen.

[HugMonster]

If Muslims all over the place (Luton local papers, please copy) think that this is a war against Islam, exactly what religion do they suppose is represented by the Northern Alliance, not to mention all those who have fled the Taliban's regime?

What really worries me is that there are some idiots on the "Western" side who think this is a war against "rag-heads" everywhere. Such people are merely adding fuel to the fire that will consume their lives.

[Roadtrip]

I'm sure the islamic fundamentalist, their tacit supporters worldwide, and agents think of A320 and Arkroyal fondly -- sort of like "useful fools."

We say this is not a religious war, but the islamists think, say, and insist it is. Listen to what they say among themselves. Listen to the spewing of hate. Listen to what they teach the children. Watch how they threaten and kill any of their islamic "brothers" if they don't espouse the rhetoric. Come to the US and listen to what they say to the news media, then hear what they say in their islamic conventions. We remain PC and in-denial at our peril.

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: Roadtrip ]

[HugMonster]

Road trip, you may be right about them being viewed as "useful fools". Unlike you, they are at least useful.

Have you not heard all the denouncements from Muslims worldwide of the atrocities? If any more than a small minority viewed it this way, don't you think we'd be in deep, deep doodoo? Do you have any idea what the most widespread, the most popular religion in the world is?

That some may support Bin Laden and the Taliban and have totally distorted ideas of what Islam teaches is no reason to condemn all, as your post attempts. To do so is blatantly prejudiced and ignorant, and brands your post as unworthy of any thinking, reasoning human being. Furthermore, since it is likely to inflame moderate Muslims, is dangerous to all. Please desist. If you're a danger to the non-terrorist world, you're no use to the non-terrorist world, and we'll have to dispose of you quietly while nobody is looking :D

[Ray Ban]

The terrorists may have woken a sleeping giant but this situation is completely different to Pearl Harbour and 1941. A war had already been raging for 2 years prior to it and in any event the enemy was identifiable.

Global terrorism is an insidious enemy which exists in the shadows and strikes when least expected. As for the Taleban fighters, they will be no pushover. It is their home territory and they are hardy resilient people who will not be scared of dying for their cause. I am more than a little concerned that the Americans are underestimating the problem. Flattening Afghanistan will not eradicate the problem - it will probably intensify it. History has shown that Islam has always been a militant religion, engendering more loyalty towards the faith than the nation of birth. That alone raises some worrying and difficult questions in these testing times. That said I have a lot of sympathy for the majority of the dispossessed Palestinian people.

[sanjosebaz]

On Sunday (Oct 28) a local Mosque had an open day, which I ("protestant") and some (Roman Catholic) colleagues decided to attend. OK, it was a PR exercise, for obvious reasons, but they clearly denounced terrorism AND the Taliban (they said they were in the "dark ages"). It was a very worthwhile and moving 2 hours - they certainly did themselves great justice. They also said that all Mosques are always open and that anyone is free to come and witness the prayers.

We must not tar all muslims with the same brush here. It is very narrow minded so to do. I urge you to visit your local Mosque to find out their real beliefs before it's too late.

BTW, I am not a convert - there is much in Islam that I cannot condone, but I am at least enlightened to the idea that we are talking about a power struggle here, more than a religious one (shades of IRA).

(and yes, I'll learn to spell - one day!)

[ 30 October 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]

[salapilot]

Let us not forget why this thread was started. Yes the Sikhs are being targeted and when so called congress men make racist remarks what chance have Sikhs got. Please take the time to read this article which I recieved today.....


In the wake of recent terrorist attacks, the turban, originally a practical
idea for protection, has become a symbol many Americans associate with
terrorists.
In SeaTac, Wash., recently, a man was charged with attacking a
turban-wearing Sikh cab driver, calling him a "butcher terrorist." In
Seattle, a man was arrested after he was accused of trying to choke a Sikh,
telling him, "You have no right to attack our country." In Arizona, a man
shot a Sikh gas-station owner to death, later explaining to authorities:
"I'm a patriot." Hundreds of other assaults on Sikhs have been reported
across the country.
Yes, Sikhs wear turbans. But they have no connection to the Islamic
extremists now wanted by the United States.
Rather, Sikhs are members of the world's fifth-biggest religion, which
traces its roots to northern India and espouses egalitarianism.
President Bush describes the new American enemy as shadowy and hard to find,
which may explain why some Americans are grasping for a way to identify
terrorists. But equating the ancient headgear with terrorism shows how
little is known about turbans.
Lesson No. 1: Not all turbans are the same. Fabric headwraps and
headcoverings are common in a wide swath of the world, from North Africa
across the Middle East and into Central Asia. At times, turbans have even
been found on the heads of fashion-conscious Europeans and atop the heads of
American pop-culture icons.
Like other types of clothing, the turban means different things depending on
who is wearing it and how it is worn.
A turban is a very long and narrow piece of cloth - 12 feet is not an
unusual length - made of cotton, silk or synthetics. It is wound around the
head and held on by its own tension, gravity or a chin strap.
The English word turban is believed to have come from the Persian word
dulband - a word which is also thought to be the etymological predecessor of
"tulip" and of the Spanish word for hammerhead shark, torbandalo.
Though no one knows when and where the turban originated, carvings left by
the Assyrians, who lived 3,000 years ago in the area that is now Iraq, show
turbans on the heads of kings.
That means that before there was Islam, or even Christianity, there were
turbans.
It also means that by 1000, the turban had evolved from a strictly
utilitarian piece of clothing into something used to connote nobility and
power.
The turban is like other pieces of fashion in this way, said Brannon
Wheeler, an associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of
Washington.
Just as shoes evolved from a practical foot covering into an item of
clothing that reveals a person's class and origins, so turbans evolved from
a simple head covering into something that identifies people along cultural,
religious, political and social lines.
Those seem to be distinctions many are unaware of. John Cooksey, a
Republican congressman from Louisiana, recently offered this suggestion for
weeding out terrorists: "If I see someone come in and he's got a diaper on
his head and a fanbelt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs
to be pulled over and checked."
Cooksey later apologized, saying he was referring only to Osama bin Laden,
but clearly the way he described the offending headgear shows a lack of
turban savvy. In the picture of bin Laden posted on the FBI's Most Wanted
list, the fugitive Saudi millionaire is wearing a white cloth turban wrapped
in a circular, spiraling fashion.
This is not the type of headcovering that requires what Cooksey called a
"fan belt" - a thick black cord known to people in the Middle East as an
ekal. The ekal is used to hold on a kaffiyeh, the patterned headcovering
made famous by Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Kaffiyehs are worn by men in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Arab Persian Gulf
states. They are rectangular pieces of cloth folded diagonally and draped
over the head. Technically, they're not even turbans.
The American tendency to link turbans with terrorism may stem from the Iran
hostage crisis, with its images of Ayatollah Khomeini and his black turban.
But in most of the Muslim world, the wearing of a turban symbolizes simply
religious or political power.
Many Muslim spiritual leaders wear a white turban wrapped around a spherical
or conical hat known as a kalansuwa.
The irony of the American focus on turbans in the wake of the terrorist
attacks is that, at least in this country, turbans are a very poor predictor
of a person's involvement in terrorist violence. None of the hijackers wore
turbans.


salapilot

[Roadtrip]

A few days ago there was an interview on TV with a muslim professor (not a citizen) at a Florida university who verbally strongly condemned the attacks. However, right afterwards an amature video tape showed the same guy at an islamic convention in Chicago, spewing out a tirade of hate and venom with waving fists that would make a KKKer blush, then took up donations for a terrorist front charity.

Condemnation of the attacks?? Talk is cheap. Actions are proof.

[Techman]

As one having the great misfortune to be able to watch american television news, I find it no wonder, that there is are hostile feelings towards muslism.

Sure there is freedom of the press and all that in the U.S., but that means nothing when there is no balanced or critical reporting from the medias side. It has become a propaganda tool for the establishment. Demonize your enemy, and if the enemy is a bit difficult to spot, make up a new one that are easier to defeat and report on.

Noticed how Bin Laden have sort of slipped to the background, and it's now all about the Taliban.

[xsbank]

While deploring the tendency of humans under stress to resort to racism, ie allowing the very thin veneer of civilization to tear and uncover our teeth and claws, would it be imprudent to point out that the bombing of the Air India flight over the Atlantic and the Narita bomb that exploded and killed numerous bystanders on the same day was the work of Sikh extremists living in Canada and the UK (one of the accused is in jail in the UK for something else) who are now in the process of being prosecuted by the Canadian government. While one bad apple blah blah blah, the "...idiot clock that strikes thirteen..." taints all of a group who are identifyable by dress or religion or propensity to casually kill bystanders to atone for perceived unrelated injustices.

[HugMonster]

Yes, fair enough, xsbank, you got us there. Sikhs are terrorists.

Now what about the poison gas attack - by the Japanese. That proves all followers of Shinto are terrorists. Likewise, the Oklahoma City bombing - Timothy McVeigh was a Baptist, wasn't he? OK - all Baptists are terorists. In Northern Ireland, we can add all catholics, all protestants. From Sri Lanka we know that all Tamils are terrorists, etc. etc. etc.

This kind of unthinking branding of everyone for the acts of a few makes me sick. The lack of discrimination is, quite frankly, appalling, especially among members of a profession who are (supposedly) capable of examining a situation rationally and coolly and making a sensible decision.

The idiocies of those who attack Sikhs mistaking them for Muslims just points to a total abandonment of any pretence of rational thought. To think that all Muslims are automatically suspect is prejudiced.

Get a grip, folks.

[G.Khan]

If this thread was on Jet Blast it would have been closed by now since it covers both politics and religion!
For those that want to know more about the so called "dis-possessed" Palestinians a short course in history might help. You may be surprised to discover that the ancestors of the present day Palestinians pretty much brought about their own demise at the behest of the Russian regime of the day.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I have been watching this thread closely. There are signs that it is getting racist, certainly religious, and a few times off topic.

I think the topic is worth pursuing but do not take that as an invitation to widen it's scope. There is, in my view, still something to be said about the original post, and I would hope that you will stay with that. No Religion No Politics. Skirting the edges of both is unavoidable so it will be necessary for you to re-read your post before you click on the Add Reply button.


PPRuNe Pop
Administrator and Aircrew Notices Moderator
[email protected]

[Groover]

HugMonster - 100 % correct

Took the words right out of my mouth !!

The Sikh terrorists that were referred to were highly condemned by other Sikhs. The lives that were taken on the flight were the first innocent civilian lives to be taken in almost 500 years !!

[CaptA320]

To my dear fellow American friends on this forum I wish to say the following.

What happened on 911 was a dark day for humanity and my thoughts go out for all those innocent souls that were murdered in NY and DC as well as their families.
The intention here is not to critisize the US for it's reaction/retaliation nor to side with the anti-American sentiments. As I mentioned earlier we must globaly unite against terrorism in all it's forms. But please stop and think as well as ask yourself why so much hatred exists towards the US from the east? Could it be due to the US foreign policy which has been adopted by previous administrations?
Is our blind support of Israel correct? We are a nation of people who praise equality and justice for all, should we not adopt this in our foreign policy matters as well? How can we arm Israeli soldiers with M16's to fight children in Palestine who throw stones. I'm not advocating that we should blame the Palestinian / Israeli conflict for everything but I am convinced that this has been a great contributor to the anti-American sentiments that exist today, and what is more alarming is that individuals such as Osama bin Laden are using this to achieve a clash of civilizations.

In addition to our quest to bring the perpetrators of 911 to justice we must do a radical re-think of US foreign policy that reflects the principles of our great nation, these are principles we live by and should be clearly reflected in how we are perceived around the globe.

I was born in Athens, Greece and when I was still a baby my parets immigrated to the US. I grew up in Florida and consider the fact that I became a person who believes we are all equal irrespective of color, race or religion an achievement of my American upbringing. For that I love the US and I'm proud to be a naturilized citizen.

I would like to see the rest of the world to view our great nation as a global embassador and promoter of equality and justice for all people. As a superpower and the world's greatest democracy we should lead the world to these great principles.

[DownIn3Green]

Back to the original topic: Here's an example that I would hope makes my opinion clear:

Several years ago, I lived in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and was accompianied by my wife. We lived there by choice, under a 1 year contract, then right after, for another year under another contract. Once again, this was by our choice.

Did my wife have the right to dress as she wanted, western style, while in that country? did I, for that matter? No! Instead we had to abide by the local customs and dress accordingly. Many times we observed the religious police (mutawa) physically assulting western women in the market areas for lack of compliance with local dress codes. (those of you who have been there know what I'm talking about)

Now I know Saudi isn't Turban Town, and I don't know what the local customs there are for western residents, but I suspect there are parallels between the two places.

In the USA we of course allow much more freedom of expression and beliefs than some of these other countries. In fact, that may be one of the reasons many of these people come here to work or live.

However, even though we don't have a "close minded" (for lack of a better way to say it here) dress code, out of courtesy and respect for our western culture as to what happened on 9/11, what better way for these people to show their unified support for our country, indeed for all of the free world by giving up their personal choice of dress if only for a short time.

Besides showing pride and respect for their "adopted" country of residence, dressing to "blend in" with the locals could possibly ease their personal lives for the next few months or so.

Before anyone starts in on me with the "they have a right" bandwagon, let's not forget we all used to have many "rights" before 9/11 which we no longer have.

So I guess my point is, if these folks want to live here in the west, why not try to blend in voluntarily, to show that they're 100% with the program.

[Steepclimb]

Interesting to see the one or two people here are happily reverting to good old Anti Americanism. It's so comfortable and safe isn't it? Perhaps you need to be reminded what happened on Sept 11th. Remember they are still digging shattered bodies out to of the remains of the WTC and the fires have yet to go out. I know which side I'm on, do you?

Blacksheep, in relation to your reference to the photo of American civil war soldiers in Middle Eastern type uniform. I'm afraid the truth makes your political point spurious.

In fact those soldiers were most likely Caucasion and European. At the time French military fashion was very much in vogue, standard US uniforms very much reflected the French style, witness the kepi(hat) worn by both sides in the war and things like the cut of the uniform and rank insignia. Also copied were the uniforms of certain French Middle Eastern colonial troops, the 'Zouaves'. Several volunteer units on both sides wore Zouave uniforms at the start of the war. The Pennsylvanians being one example. There were quite a few Zouave regiments formed all of the them manned by white Europeans.
In fact even in the French army of the time, the Zouave regiments consisted entirely of Frenchmen as did several Zouave units of the Confederate army particularly from Louisiana.

Rather spoils the the thrust of your argument doesn't it? It also proves again that the wearing of a turban does not not imply a middle eastern connection.
Actually it does rather prove the western tendency to not just tolerate but even adopt the best attributes of other cultures. Which brings us back to the point of this post, that fact that many of us consider it outrageous that Sikhs were treated in this way. This goes against all the values we hold dear in the West. If only other cultures and religions were so tolerant. Isn't that the point of it all?

America was not so much attacked for what it DID but for what it IS. A bastion of relative freedom and tolerance in a world full of extremists and religious bigotry. The same could be said of western Europe and other outposts of freedom and democracy out there in the world. How many of you really want to live in a kind of society all too common in the Middle East. Dictatorships, despotic monarchies and religious zealotry are the norm. Why do you think so many people from that part of the world are battering down the gates of Europe to get away from that kind of madness?
Our society is flawed but at least we know that, can that be said of others?

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: Steepclimb ]

[Steepclimb]

Bloody hell, I really know how to kill a topic stone dead. The last post!

[Paterbrat]

I'd say a pretty good post actualy.

[Blacksheep]

But Turbans are authorised headgear for soldiers of the United States Army! See this photograph of "Taliban" soldiers of Company F of the 114th Pennsylvania Infantry... :)
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?cwar:6:./temp/~ammem_b5Sb::displayType=1:m856sd=cwp:m856sf=4a40017:@@@

Get in touch with your cultural heritage at the Library of Congress. Education is the enemy of bigotry...

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[CaptA320]

Downin3green, interesting post with some valid points however you are comparing a non-democratic country with the worlds largest democracy. Surely we should be advocating that the rest of the world follow the shining example of civil liberties available in the US as opposed to trying to supress those liberties to come in-line with other non-democratic countries. The great thing is that irrespective of color, race or religion we are all the same in the US, enjoy the same rights, as well as the same freedom of speech. By asking people to change that we are supressing the very foundations of our free society.

[DownIn3Green]

Capt A,

I agree, however, what I am saying is we all choose to show our support in our own way. As others have pointed out, there had been cheering from some "arab" airport workers when news of this disaster was broadcast. Others have said they would like to see more denounciations of the attacks from the muslim community.

I am saying, as a gesture of support, the turban wearers could voluntairly remove their turbans when travelling.

To force them to do this would certainly create more problems (civil rights, etc) than it would be worth.

However, applying the same standards to everyone, such as "no headgear" on aircraft would not only eliminate the turbans, but also NRA Baseball caps, and hopefully, our hats as well... :D

[Wiley]

Remove headgear? I was thinking “what a silly *** idea” … until I came to the last line. Remove OUR silly **** hats. NOW you’re talking!

[CaptA320]

Are you implying I should lose my "worlds greatest dad" Baseball cap with the twin beer can holders?

[Jopa]

Actually, Company F of the 114th Pennsylvania Infantry is (was) a Company of Zouaves not "Talibans"

"Education is the enemy of bigotry..."

Nice try! Blacksheep :D

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]

[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Jopa ]

[Blacksheep]

Thats why "Taliban" was in inverted commas. "Zouaves" is a descriptive word for members of the Kabyle tribe of northern Algeria. The men in the photos are wearing turbans as part of their uniform while serving in an active unit of the Army of the Potomac - United States soldiers. The photographs were taken at the Union Army headquarters at Petersburg during the siege. Why should they remove their turbans?

While we are on the subject, "Taliban" is now equated with terrorists when it is simply the plural of the word for a student. I do rememember a bunch of students terrorising the military at Kent State University back in the sixties when the US military response was to shoot at them with live ammunition. The key word then wasn't 'Taliban' but 'Commie' or 'Pinko' Do the US armed forces have a problem with students? Whatever, no Afghans were listed among the terrorists who carried out the 911 attacks and the only casualties seen on TV so far are all civilians.

Now, I'm all in favour of striking at the Al Qaida 'fighters' in Afghanistan or wherever else they are to be found. Let them have a taste of their own medicine. But someone in the US Government needs to get the US military's image machine working soon, if they are to hold the 'coalition' together for much longer.

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[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: Blacksheep ]

[Semaphore Sam]

Right after the Sept 11 attacks, the sympathizers of the Al Quaida came out of the woodwork, and the treasonous b**t**ds called for Jihad in sympathy with Osama. Nothing succeeds like success; his attacks worked.

Now, those forces are on the run; heard any more Moslem 'Brits' foaming at the mouth to get to Afghanistan for Jihad in the last 2 days? Again, nothing succeeds like success. Problem is, they have shown their hand, and it won't be forgotten.

[Blacksheep]

Funny thing is, so many of the 'friendly' troops that are moving south and chasing the Taliban/Al Qaida seem to be wearing turbans and sporting beards. They pray towards Mecca five times a day as well. I don't suppose they could be Muslims by any chance? Do you still want them to remove the turbans or are you just happy that they are doing all the foot slogging?

Toodle-Pip

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