most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them

[reboot]

Quote from an older thread "I have no axe to grind with the engineers, the vast majority I have met are hard working, professional and good at their job. there is, however, a job hierarchy within every profession and most engineers will recognize that pilots come above them. No malice, just reality."

Sorry to bring this one back up but I just had to say you are so right, we do know our place, below you, we view you as the best form of life there is. This should be brought out in the open PILOTS ARE GREAT.

Have you any thoughts on where God comes I assume he is below you also. By the way whats that autopilot thing do, fly the plane for you? They dont seem to have an auto engineer yet.

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: reboot ]

[Meatbomber]

righton reboot somoen has to recognize their greatness ! ;)

I'm allways impresssed with these higher beings when i read their tech-log writeups...

*Engine sound not synchronised (B737-400) -> Engine sound synchroniser adjusted ... and voila their are all happy again :)

[TDR]

Reboot
You are right in your assumption. Of course pilots have a higher status than engineers.

Who has to pay for tea and coffee and who gets a free meal when they are at work?

Not the engineers I bet!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Engineering apprenticeship - 5 years
Engineering degree - 3 or 4 years.
SARTOR route to CEng - 8 years
SARTOR route to IEng - 7 years
Self improver to frozen ATPL - 3 years.

I am an engineer, I also fly. I enjoy both and don't intend giving up either. But I have no illusions that a self improved ATPL is anywhere near so hard as my engineering qualifications.

The big difference is cost, it is much CHEAPER to train an Engineer than a pilot, and that's what seems to set the culture. None of us started work with a £40k debt to pay off, and it should be admitted that whilst learning our trade we usually made enough to live on, even if we were never actually well off. No engineer had to sell his granny to become one.

It takes an Engineer (or more likely several dozen) to design, built and install an autopilot. I'm not saying that an autoengineer isn't possible, but no pilot could design it, and no engineer would - we aint that daft.

G

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]

[Meatbomber]

hard to pay of the Self-improvers debt from an engineers salary too :)

i know

Cheers
MB

[Eff Oh]

I have never had a problem with ANY engineers in my life! I always find them very professional and willing to help. :) I think all this rivalry stuff is stupid. An airline would not operate without any of us. We all have the same standing. The engs' do a GREAT job (especially during a busy summer) in fixing an A/C and getting it out in min time, and with max quality! Lets just all live happily ever after. :D
Eff Oh. :D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Aye, son, and Air Traffic Control Officers - especially those of us in the rare, but heavily Brylcreemed, Heathrow stratum are way, way above all flying types...!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Even if an autotechnician is against union rules, watch your back - it wouldn't be hard to automate ATC.

G

[Flintstone]

Hey Genghis,

So what you are saying is that engineers are slow learners ;)?

Just kidding. Don't you hate it when someone borrows your tools and never brings them back?

[Oleo]

What a load of school yard crap! Surely we can just have mutual professional respect?

Personally I think the engineer's job is much more involved than the pilot's and being a pilot myself, married to an aircraft engineer for many years, I know what you guys say about us behind our back!

Aircraft engineering does not get the respect and compensation it deserves, especially in the UK. Most people are unaware of the rigorous professional qualification route . Say "engineer" and people think civil, electrical, mechanical... but say "aircraft engineer" and they think of someone in blue overalls with his name velcroed to the front, unaware many go to work in a shirt and tie and those who don't have similar qualifications anyway. A shame the pay does not reflect this.

In Germany they even have special title similar to Dr to denote someone who is a professional engineer.

More power to you guys.

(Is it because of the British "class" system that people feel compelled to "totem pole" people? Get a life!)

[ 21 October 2001: Message edited by: Oleo ]

[TDR]

No it's just because they get free tea, coffee and a meal when they are at work!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually Oleo, there's an equivalent to the German "Herr Eng." throughout Europe and there are a fair number in the UK. I have the dubious pleasure of being Eur.Ing. Genghis. [I seem to recall my illustrious forebear doing a much better job of impressing the Europeans than this, I must read up on his techniques.]

The problem with "Eur.Ing." is that it both sounds silly, and never fits into the box in forms. Roll on the day I finish my PhD and can call myself "Dr.", which is technically a lower qualification but at least people think that they know what it means.

G

[Oleo]

Well we don't get fed at work... are we equal now?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Lets face it, whatever your job is, the only reason you get fed at work is 'cos the company thinks they'll get more extra work out of you than the value of the meal. Your job has nothing to do with it.

G

[208]

difference between engineer and pilot,
the engineer goes to the crew room, the pilot flys it. if it goes wrong the engineer is still in the crew room and in the worse case senario lives to tell the tale.

Pilote always think they know more than engineers, we engineers just humour them :D

[TowerDog]

I looked into a mechanic's tool box the other day, and it was full of pencil's, nothing else... :eek:

Aye, if flying was so easy Geng, the engineers would surely be doing it.

The fact however is: It takes a real man to fly them big airplanes and no engineer has the talent, brain or courage to do it.
Sad fact, but so true.

More and more engineers tend to agree, so now the latest thing is that the engineers are volunteering to give half their pay check to their favorite pilot. (All because even engineers understand they are over-paid and pilots are severly under-paid.)

So all ya grease monkeys and ramp rats out there, be good chaps now and pass the hat around: Take up a collection for TowerDog and his beer fund.
Don't be shy spanner boys, just wire the total right over to my favorite pub and ya will all sleep better now.

Have a nice day. :cool:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I hope that you read your aircraft manual and flightplan a tad more carefully than my post towerdog. I have quite enough flying hours, about half of them paid, to know that flying well is considerably easier than engineering well. Arguably there are low-level jobs in engineering that need rather less skill than low level jobs in flying, but I've not done one of those since I was 19, and suspect this is true of most of the other engineers on this forum.

This may sound glib, but I would rather enjoy the technical challenge of getting new aircraft designs right than of flying a 300 seat London bus across the atlantic twice a week. Frankly I'd rather enjoy the salary that goes with bus driving, and so would Mrs Genghis, but I've not given her the choice and have seen how much my bus driving friends enjoy all those nights in the back of beyond away from their families.

Now get back in your box and read your operators manual, written by an Engineer, to tell you how to operate your aeroplane, designed by an engineer, safely, because it was maintained by an engineer (or technician, but I'll keep that particular argument to another forum, where we enjoy it from time to time).

Remember the real enemy - accountants.

G

[ragspanner]

Towerpup, i believe you had your tongue firmly in your cheek, either that or you should increase the interval between your deep dives & pressurised flight.
You are correct about the pencils though ,personally i use them to remove the s***** from pilots ears. This can be difficult to acheive as it tends to calcify in the rarified intellectual atmosphere on the flt deck.
All that talk of pensions,pay & expenses !,frightfully interesting ,oh & status blah blah,tres ,tres drole. Yesterday i could'nt spell rectitude & today i still don't understand the concept !.

[TowerDog]

The fish are biting today... :D

[Techman]

Only at worms :D :D .

We all know that the last REAL men in aviation, are the engineers.

[Carnage Matey!]

OOOOOOH! Careful Genghis! You've raised that engineer/technician spectre again! I suspect that may be at the crux of this argument, although perhaps not articulated precisely. IMHO much of this debate comes down to the relative levels of training/ expertise/ cost/ qualification of people involved, and is, frankly, not best served by the peculiarly British trait of describing everyone involved in engineering as an 'engineer' regardless of training. If we had a continental system of accurately defining important technological roles without diminishing the status of anyone things would be a lot clearer (although we'd still never fit pilots in!). After all, individual roles in engineering are as broad as those in medicine, but we can define medical roles in categories such as surgeon, doctor, paramedic or nurse without demeaning anyone. Not sure if this makes any sense, but I've drank too many beers for this time of night - another engineer (or is it flight crew?) trait.

[ragspanner]

Oh,
callow Towerpup though thy doth clothe thy speech in the raiment of the kings fool,
true'ly though does't still talk cack !. :rolleyes:

[freightdoggy dog]

I know my place, I look up to you ragspanner, but he, Towerdog looks down at you.With respect to Pete and Dud :D

[TowerDog]

From 41000 feet pilots look down at most folks, but especially engineers, technicians, mechanics or whatever the aero plane repair guys call them self these days.
:D :D :D

Keep on biting guys. This is almost like last year when bus429 started a similar subject to wind up pilots. And we did bite. :rolleyes:

[ragspanner]

Towerpup,
what i believe you meant to say was aircraft or aeroplane, an aero plane being a device for reducing the dimensions of a bar of chocolate! ;)
FDD was that the one with Ronnie Barker as
well?,top sketch.

[TowerDog]

Rag:

No pup on this address, way up in the middle ages, more like a junk-yard dog.

You ground floor guys are bit strange, using aeroplanes to do what now, reduce the dimensions of choco late? :D

[Blacksheep]

Oh dear Ghengis, you have a dislike of beancounters? I am a beancounting technician who lords it over a bunch of guys doing Airline Engineering for a living - rather than Airliner Maintaining, which is a somewhat dirty affair, more suited to the lower forms of life.

Anyway, enough of the insults; after doing a bit of cost benefit analysis between my own education and training versus wages as compared to the median "self improver" I find that I'm much better off over a working life time, no matter how much our current pay checks may differ. (And I don't have to spend any time away from home either.) I don't get any respect from maintainers or flying machine operators, but I don't care as long as my hands remain clean and beautifully manicured, my wallet remains fat and my bank balance continues to embarrass the bank into offering my unemployed daughter a platinum credit card. Pilots higher up the pecking order than Maintenance Engineers? Certainly! But both jobs are mere "Manual Labour" well beneath the dignity of an Aviation Engineering Professional such as my good self.

Towerdog - I like your coarse fishing style, but I think I'll stick to flicking flies over the Tweed for now :p

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Genghis the Engineer]

Blacksheep, whilst I know that you're fishing, you define perfectly why I don't like beancounters.

G

[ragspanner]

Oh dear !,
another bleater who thinks they are Oscar Wilde incarnate !
"Flicking flies" indeed !,i would lay off the J.R Hartleys for breakfast if i were you !.

P.S.I would be'extra' careful if you do flick flies ,i do hope you use some form of protection.

[ 24 October 2001: Message edited by: ragspanner ]

[freightdoggy dog]

Rag, you know so much, there was indeed a Mr Barker in the sketch, which is why I can only look up to you?

Hear that "scruffy" is on his way out, better make sure he doesn,t do a postie. :eek:

[Blacksheep]

Ah rags, you seem like a nice boy. Which school did you go to? I'm afraid I'm alliterate from taking Talisker for breakfast rather than Hartleys. Oops, there I go again - hic!

Oscar Wilde incarnate indeed! Wasn't he gay or something? I'm more of a Shelley man myself - Ozymandias and that sort of thing. Rebellious tendencies as some have said.

Returning to this argument about the relative positions of pilots and engineers/technicians/mechanics. Back in my Per Ardua days, my old Chiefy put it to a bumfluffy Flying Officer that we groundcrew must be smarter than the average pilot. After all, we strap them in and send them off to do all the fighting then spend the rest of the night drinking all their beer and screwing all their women. :p

Ghengis - I only did the beancounting course to see what all the fuss was about. Engineering is so much more fun!

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[ragspanner]

Oh,
Blacksheep ,this could be love !.
PAX ?.

RAGS XXXXXXX.
;)

[TowerDog]

Blacksheep:

Yeah mate, coarse fishing, but catch is good when bait is the ego :D

That being said, TowerDog wanted to become an aircraft mechanic in the military, but after having completed the mandatory IQ test for new recruits, he was turned down.

Went to civilian flight school later and ended up as a B-747 captain.
:D

[Blacksheep]

Woof woof Towerdog! Must be nice to be at the top of two hierarchies eh? Now, if you'll just keep on breakin'em then we can carry on fixin'em and everything will be fine... :)

BTW, the fishing's good. None of the flies have drowned yet anyway.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[SuperSpanner]

When I originally entered the aviation profession I was selected to be a pilot.

Unfortunately, I failed in the initial stages when it was determined that my father was known and identified on my birth certificate. :)

There is no way I could accept the reduction in pay or status to join the ranks of flightcrew. I mean, as a super-hero, I could never live it down!

But again, let's face it, there has to be a position in society for blow-hard, self important, know-it all gits who like to wear fancy dress, and assume a position of superiority over the general populace - I believe we may have found it! :)

To quote from my days as a psychologist;

Exaggerated self-importance has various names - superiority complex, arrogance, vanity, conceit, egotism, and many others - and is based on "special person" misconceptions. The individual is constantly engaged in attempts to have others acknowledge his or her superiority, which if threatened, is defended vigorously. If the defence is unsuccessful, anxiety and depression result. The following six false beliefs are manifested by most:
I must control others.
I am superior to others.
I should not compromise.
I suffer from more frustrations than do others.
I must strive to be perfect.
Others cannot be trusted.

The special person's constant efforts to control, his attitudes of superiority, his refusal to compromise, his masked hostilities, and his empty perfectionism betray the highly competitive person who must have his own way and must be right at all costs. The failure to trust others is manifested by suspiciousness which may verge on the paranoid. Other characteristics of the "special person" are a highly critical attitude towards others, little empathy with others, lack of insight about the self, and self-righteousness.

Over-indulgence in childhood may be the cause, although other sources may include early identification with an illustrious or dominating parent or with fantasised heroes. Such people often become flawed leaders, who have problems with their families and intimates.


Whoops, hope this has no bad effects upon the original "special individual" who made thsi observation!

And after all that - I'm only joking, except for the miniscule minority of individuals who fit these description exactly! You probably don't know who you are, but we do! :)

:eek:

[TowerDog]

Blacksheep:

Not on top of the woodpile anymore.

Scrubbing teakdecks on yachts these days.
From rags to riches and back to rags.

Uh, spanner you really wanted to fly did you not?
Don't be bitter chap, just go to flight school, get yer tickets and go look for a flying job. It's easy... :D

[TDR]

You still don't get my point do you?
How many engineers had their lunch served at their desk today? Not many I bet. Now how many pilots flying large commerical aircraft have and did thay pay for it?

No they didn't. They complain if they don't get a First Class meal.

The poor old engineer has to be happy with making his own tea, with teabags and milk he has bought AND has to que up AND PAY FOR for his lunch, which in my experience isn't fit for pigswill at some airports.

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: TDR ]

[Blacksheep]

Wasn't served exactly, I brought it in myself, but I do eat gourmet food prepared by my housekeeper, at my desk, off bone china service and using silver cutlery. The company frowns on the consumption of alcohol - at any time! but especially on company premises - so I have to make do with Vichy until I get home of an evening. Damned tough being a desk bound engineer. (Sorry, Technician cum part-time Beancounter.) Not like the good old days when I was down the Line, drinking cold tea out of plastic cups and ransacking the galleys for left-overs during transits. I seem to recall a bit of forelock tugging too, but that was often the only way to get cantankerous old four-ringers to ****** off skywards so we could shove off down the pub.

Roll on retirement when I can join old Towerdog, holy stoning the yacht's deck eh?

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Genghis the Engineer]

My company provides tea, coffee, milk and a kettle, all free and gratis. I bring my own tea in, because the stuff they buy is so awful.

I too eat at my desk, because there's too &*&( much work to do, and if I don't do it, nobody else will and I'll get the blame. So I work through lunch to improve the chances of occasionally seeing my family in daylight. Usually I fail anyway.

G

[bugg smasher]

I’d have a hard time casting my vote on this one; happened to see a blurb on TV about the Red Light district in BRU the other day. Got the impression the professionals behind the windows were doing much the same work we do, but getting paid a lot more money for it.