Jetstar NZ News????

[blacksmoke]

Any more news on the NZ gig??? Have heard they have filled some capt positions , and have had no problems getting the required f/o numbers.(could be some movement throughout mt cook/eagle/nelson very soon with guys moving onto jet*!!)
Any improvements with the package etc ??

[framer]

Rumour is that they only needed 37 F/O's and had nearly 100 guys/gals that did well in the interviews. With that in mind they are going to offer a reduced salary (approx 10%) to fifty or sixty and see if they can get the numbers. Starting salary now $57k.
If that doesn't work they still have plenty that are keen on the initially discussed salary.

[horserun]

With that in mind they are going to offer a reduced salary (approx 10%) to fifty or sixty and see if they can get the numbers. Starting salary now $57k.



Please people.......just say no!


What a pack of W**kers!!! ........ How do they sleep at night.

[Beeroclock]

People will do it..Just look at the uptake JQ and V got for those positions they so elegantly renamed CRUISE FIRST OFFICER!!

As long as people jump at these positions they will continue to offer less and less..Its appalling really..

[Walter E Kurtz]

Disgusting....

I am embarressed that years ago I chose profession with such haste. Shame on me.

And shame on Jetstar, shame shame shame!!

[oneday_soon]

Have people lost their minds. Don't worry about the race to the bottom for terms and conditions, think we are there.

You are going to fly a jet for $57K, and also correct me if I am wrong but also pay for a endo on the A320 aswell. Even if there is no endo costs, $57k, for an A320. You have to be joking.

[KABOY]

No, the race to the bottom is when they introduce unpaid line training for 50,70,100 sectors depending on experience!

Thats when they hit fifth gear careering to a new low!!!!

How long will it be?:(

[7378FE]

57K.........H'mm luxury
When I started I had to pay owner for the opportunity to come to work.
Lodging was under a piece of cardboard in middle of active runway, and if I got back on time, the aircraft owner would thrash me to within a inch of my life, and relegate me to sleep under a sheet of newspaper, near where they used to empty the honey carts.

..............and if I told the kids of today this, they would not believe me. :)

Apologies to the Monty Python team :ok:

[framer]

I should point out that this is a rumour, I was talking to a metro driver in Sydney who told me that his mate that interviewed with J* told him the above.

[palau]

Just had a call from jetstar.
F/o pay 65k nzd
Over 65 hrs flying additional $60/hr
Expect to fly 80-85 hrs mth
5 weeks holiday plus stats
Endorsment ~44k nzd (plus 8% should you choose a three year repayment scheme)
Expect to earn 76k and not 57k!

[blow.n.gasket]

Why bother.
You'd make more money as a rent boy!:eek:
Same result too, getting shafted up the khyber that is!:}

[framer]

Thats sounds a bit better....whats the DTA and when does it apply? There is probably an extra ten k in DTA alone. Plus the incentive pay Palau mentioned makes it more like 85k....still 15k short of all the other narrow body operators in town though.

[always inverted]

Yeah, thats more what I had herd too.
Just out of curiosity, does 65k kiwi work out to the 57k in aussie dollars? Maybe thats where the numbers came from.

[palau]

DTA, I didn't ask and wasn't mentioned.
There was a 5k bonus that they expected you to achieve.
As a turbo prop capt this is a 20k pay drop without adding in the endorsement!.
Time to talk to the wife.

[puma pants]

Whores!!!!!

[Muff Hunter]

80-85 is not possible flying domestic around n.z.....that came directly from the recruiting manager..

also the bonus is payable "at the discretion of jetstar" (how it is worded in the contract)

the management of this outfit are a joke and anyone who accepts this a clown..

[wingnut69]

What's a cancer within a cancer called?:mad:

[Fruet Mich]

DTA of $5.00NZD only paid on an overnight, other than that no DTA. Ask Jet* management how many overnights you will have? I'd say diddly.

FO salary and bonuses exactly 50% of Capt. A piss take! Industry first.

You won't do anywhere near 70hrs domestic. can't do it and you won't.

If you think the company will pay your bonus have a rethink. Not guaranteed so I'd bet my left nut they won't in times like these.

Pay for your own Jepps, medical etc. You're all better off keeping your current gigs.

For the mugs about to jump into their fantastic new career flying a big shinny jet......good luck chaps, chocks away!! :ugh:

[Walter E Kurtz]

Jertstar is just another brothel, they call the pimp Blue Cannon.

Take your own vaseline, this brothel is very cheap :uhoh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Fruet mich

You seem to forget that "domestic" NZ flying now includes Australia, and vice versa.

There will be lots of overnights, as the crews will be doing a LOT of Australian sectors (and replacing QF drivers and JQ Aus drivers).

Move your family to NZ and get paid NZ dollars, but you still get to fly back home for work!!! :ugh:

[blacksmoke]

Have heard most of the f/o interest is from kiwis, with a few oz guys coming over as skippers to help out for 12monthsor so until they get enough over there, then back to J* oz for them. The 75-80 hrs is also a mix of tasman flying, so it is very easy to hit those hours.

[pigdriver]

Not that I agree with the conditions on offer etc, but I do find alot of the comments on here very harsh, especially as Jetstar ( or should I say ex nopulse) were the ones that started this low pay and conditions when they undercut everybody a few years ago. Then pac blue continued the game, with jitconnect following very closely.Over time, both these airlines conditions have slowly improved, so I would imagine J* NZ will be no different.
In this current market, with airlines falling over everywhere, I can see why some guys are looking at this, as well as pacblue/jetconnect etc, as to be home, with a reasonable job, is better than not having one at all !!!

[Beeroclock]

In terms of wages it really is becoming Ga with jets these days..

[Fruet Mich]

Good luck to all the wide eyed boys and girls like Horatio that obviously choose to not do the due diligence prior to spending a poltus amount of cash to earn **** all. SJS is rife and well! Jet* management have got us pilots all suss'd! They're all getting to know we'll all porn our selves out to fly that shinny jet.

[NoN1]

Palau and others,

When estimating income in my experience, hope for the best and expect the worst. So for example;

- If you take your leave in two week chunks then you will not achieve any incentive pay hours for at least two months.

- There will be months when you are rostered for EP's, CRM, or other courses which will reduce your flying hours for that month.

- If you are off work due to sickness or injury you will not accrue flying hours for that month during that time.

- Cynical rostering may see you displaced on a flight if you are going into 'overtime' and another pilot could do the flight who is not (perhaps he is coming off leave or has been sick that month.)

DTA is an allowance to be spent on overnights, so don't factor that as income. I have seen too many examples of "slam-clickers" who are depending on DTA to pay the bills back home.

Paying for an endorsement to take a pay cut makes no sense. Add up what the endo costs, including accommodation, travel, food, and lost income while training. Take a really hard look at how long it will take you to break even on that investment. Think about being forced to move bases, or being stuck as an FO for whatever reason.

If you have a good job, stay where you are until you at least don't have to pay for an endorsement.

If you don't have a job, get your arse out of the country and do something financially far more worthwhile and probably very interesting, until pilots in NZ are recognised as the very fine aviators they are.

[hadenuff]

For what it's worth, NZ$65k base salary after tax leaves you with $49k in the hand a year. Minus roughly NZ$15k cash per year (After tax!) for the endorsement, leave you with NZ$34k cash in hand per annum.

Assuming 80hrs a month average block time and you get another $11k per annum in the hand cash.

That leaves the individual with $1730 per fortnight cash in the hand when your at work and $1300 when your on leave, for those with student loans the figures would be worse. Good luck team, but you are selling your souls. :ugh:

[pigdriver]

After speaking to a few contacts in J*, I believe a few of the recently displaced captains etc are looking at going over to enzed for 12months or so (LWOP) as it's a better option than what they have recieved in the latest bids etc. (some going back to f/o, or having to move to darwin/perth etc...)Also with the slowdown of late, and realising their number on the dreaded list, maybe it gets them current again whilst looking for a better option longterm????
As far as the f/o situation goes, I think the SJS will win, and the company will get lots of guys ready to work for next to nothing?!?!

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Why would you leave your government sponsored turboprop job to work at pornstar NZ for worse conditions and less pay...................I don't get it? Actually do it would you? I'd like to be considered for a command sooner than later. Cheers:ok:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Where did I say that I was going to go to NZ? :hmm:

Where did I say that it was a good idea? :confused:

My intention was to point out that there will be lots of flying and overnights because J*'s obvious intention is to replace their Impulse workforce with "Impulse NZ", as far as possible. :(

I am certainly not saying it is decent pay or conditions, nor that it is ethical; I most certainly will not be working for Impact NZ, nor will I be moving my family to Helengrad and then paying NZD$40k for an endorsement :=

[Fruet Mich]

I'm scratching my head here horatio? You're a confused fish in an agry sea!

Impulse? Long gone and dead.

Jet* NZ Alive and well. Flying around Australia doing overnights and all of the Aus guys flying? Tell him he's dreamin! What ever you're smokin, I want some!!

Ever heard of unions?

Look, at the end of the day, what Jet* is doing is manipulating at it's greatest. Everyone has the right to better their career. I'd just like to see people stop and think before presenting themselves like lambs to the slaughter for Jet* management to manipulate for years to come.

Sorry if I've offended you Horatio, just not sure where you were going with your earlier thread

[Horatio Leafblower]

You are obviously not a member of the AFAP - otherwise you would have read their memos to Jetstar members and smelt their fear.

Wait 3-5 years and then tell me I'm wrong.:=

[pigdriver]

fruit mich and others, Yes impulse is dead, but what I and many others find very funny sitting back and watching all of this is, these are the guys who started all this low pay, pay for rating crap a few years ago, and now many of them ( yes ex impulse guys ) are the biggest whinges, and are also the loudest voices against guys going across for cmd, or to get home etc, although its EXACTLY what they have done in the past...
Its no different to the kiwis who are with jitconnect, or pacblue( many ex emirates etc...).Its all good to say we wouldnt do that, or join under those conditions etc, but many have , and unfortunatly, many will continue to do so !!!.

[Sand dune Sam]

Question for those that may know, has there been any Kiwi expats return to NZ from overseas to take a gig with Jetstar NZ?

[max autobrakes]

Wether you like it or not I don't think any of us should project our own prejudice on others just starting out in this profession.
We all know just how hard it is to get that first step up.
What we need to be doing to protect future generations of pilots is to make management types think twice before screwing pilots.
how do you stop the rot?
A few suggestions off the top of my head.
Once accepting a job with dubious T&C's conspire with fellow workers and have preorganised "personal roster adjustment days"
No pilots no flying. They'll soon get the hint.
Join a Union. Petition that union to take management "on".
Challenge every little conniving thing Management does.
Light as many "bushfires " as you can to put the onus back onto management to put them out.
Challenge on OH&S grounds any shortcoming in your "place of work".
Write reports in order to tie up company resources.
Get your Union to petition organisations such as ausbuy.com.au
to highlight the offshoring of Aussie jobs, let the travelling public vote with their feet.Just look at Pacific Brands attempt at being "the smartest guys in the room" and how offshoring has affected their sales.
Petition your local member.
Tell family and friends.
Even small public disobedience campaigns have taken on a life of their own and toppled governments in the past.
Let's stop being victims and take the fight to management.
Even some neoclassical capitalists listen when it's their money at stake.

[ZK-NSN]

Max -Can we add, assasinate Hughesy to that list. I really, really :mad: hate that no talent a$$ clown.

We all know just how hard it is to get that first step up.

1 step up, 2 steps back.

Douche-star.

[PegasusFury99]

Max AB - YOU are precisely the reason why I leave my family and go to Europe every winter and fly for 6mths. I don't find your vile attitude here. What a breath of fresh air it is. Yes, Aus & NZ airline mgt do have short comings, but when they have to deal with pilots like you, I to would have my patience tested. At times I look back on my military days and thank that people like Max AB did not exist. If he did, then - perhaps its better I do not explain.

Max, if you dont like the job, or the mgt, then SHUT UP!, stand up, and get OFF THIS PLANET!:ooh: :*

[Massey058]

Max AB has some valid points, the idea of joining a company and fostering the collective will to better T's & C's is excellent. Its all about bettering the workplace and ensuring people stick around so nothing malicious about that.

Irregardless of the 'economic crisis' there is a race to the bottom mirroring some other industries and linked back no doubt to government policies that will not slow anytime soon. Companies can take advantage because there is still the 'demand', requirements will be dropped as the pool shrinks but T's & C's won't necessarily be lifted in order to stimulate demand in times of weak supply.

The reality is that people join organisations for a multitude of reasons. The idea that if you don't like what is being served up then you should bail is at odds with the safety culture we all try and fiercely foster and protect. Fight the good fight I say, the race to the bottom will end at some point but by doing something about it there is the possibility of shortening and maybe even reversing its trend.

[blow.n.gasket]

Hey Pegasus when back in Europe have a bit of a think about what Max wrote.
If we all thought like you there would still be kiddies down mines tending pit ponies!:eek:

[max autobrakes]

Sorry Pegusus, the only anger I sense ain't coming from here brother!
What would you suggest pilots who wish to improve their lot in life do,join the Cosmogaian Cult and wait to get beamed out!
Throughout history there have been ebbs and flows in the capital/labour saga.
Yes I have studied such theories as the Keynesian dicipline of managed economies through Government regulation.I've studied Karl Marx's manefesto ,I'm aware of the latest embraced globalised market driven theories as espoused by the economic rationalists such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman.Throughout all this theory and history there is one constant, that constant is, if it ain't fair there will be trouble. Eventually people get jack and do something.It may not happen today, it probably won't happen tomorrow but I can assure you ,if there are enough unhappy people there will be change.

I wonder how you will respond, "Let them eat cake" ,perhaps?

[Horatio Leafblower]

We all know just how hard it is to get that first step up.

Sorry matey - the first step up is the FIRST job, skydiving or doing the Bungles or whatever.

The A320 is 7-12 years down the track (in this country anyway) after years of fighting to pay back loans and maybe even starting a family on $35-$55k, less than the average wage.

Where do we draw the line?

Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook? :ugh:

[Beeroclock]

Horatio whos AFAP??

[max autobrakes]

Horatio I think we are trying to argue the same point only coming from a different angle.
JetStar etc are here to stay.
There will continue to be people willing to accept lower terms and conditions if they think they can benifit somehow from that decision.
My point all along is that those with the resources ie: the pilots with well paid jobs should be supporting their Industrial representitives to improve those sub-optimal conditions if they can.

Your last comment
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook"

Sorry don't follow. I can't see how any F/O of any age or from any type in Qantas doing a command onto the A380 would drop in pay. Does not compute.
If you want to compare say an A380 S/O's wage to say that of a 767 F/O's go right ahead a whole different contentious kettle of fish.

What I think you should really be worried about is the connection between our current Contract and how it's tied inextricably with what are mostly nearly obsolete aircraft types.
What happens when new aircraft arrive and the Company takes advantage of all those Workplace changes bought about by the previous Government.
Would your 50 year old Qantas F/O be willing to take a pay cut and be forced to move to NZ just to remain in a job as an F/O?
That sir is the real upcoming question.

[remoak]

PegasusFury99, you are quite correct.

The attitude of horatio and others is the sort of adversarial 50's union claptrap that you seldom see in European aviation. Funny how we all get along so well over there without dragging unions into it or finding petty ways to bite the hand that feeds us. Funny how we all get paid so well, too.

One of these days, the more strident union advocates will work out that things go a lot better if you negotiate in a calm and rational manner without all the threats and vitriol. The rest of the world knows this.

Having said all that... I suppose it is possible that some of the NZ company managements here are just as one-eyed and out of touch... par for the course I guess in NZ aviation.

[kiwilad]

Beer time, AFAP is one of the two unions that represent Oz Airlines. AIPA is Qantas and AFAP is Virgin n Jetstar.

I hear the CHC based Jestar pilots on Oz contract are doing some Oz flying, so it would lead you to think that the Jetstar NZ pilots will do the same. Interesting how one aircraft can be flown by two different flightcrews all earning significantly different packages.

As Jetstar Oz have taken most of the expansion from Qantas maybe Jetstar NZ are about to do the same to Jetstar Oz. I guess similair to Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue OZ and NZ.

QF about to do the same when Jetconnect start flying VH rego 800's across the tasman. All the thin edge of the wedge!

Will be interesting to see what NZALPA ends up doing as Jetconnect QFNZ guys are having their flying replaced by Jetstar which may start a fight.

From my understanding AFAP and AIPA don't get-on, my view is that the two unions need to be united or divided they will fall. I guess they are falling already.

Funny how for both QF, Jetstar and Virgin when crew shortages require it they have been happy to send Oz conditions to fly planes with NZ crews. I.e QF flying for jetconnect, VB flying for PacB and soon Jetstar Oz helping out Jetstar NZ.

Would a four pilot crew in a B787 beable to go NZ-OZ-ASIA in one duty? Food for thought?

Cheers:ok:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Max

I agree, we are arguing the same point from different directions. You are quite correct in what you are saying about the 747 being forced to move to NZ.

You say:Your last comment
"Should a 50 year old QF FO take a pay cut for command, just so he can log "A380 command" in his logbook?"... doesn't compute

My point, made above in extremis, is that we have all made a lot of sacrifices in the early years of our careers with the objective of winning one of those few well paid jobs at the top of the tree.

I think most of the guys we know flying jets would say "it was all worth it".

My question about the A380 "command hours" was simply extending the GA mentality of "I'll just take this Chieftain job, even though it is below award pay, to get Twin command hours" to the largest aircraft in the VH fleet.

You are right, it doesn't compute.

How far along our career paths do we need to travel before we actually reap the rewards?

Remoak I am not a unionist firebrand. I am only greatly saddened to see the market value of my chosen career path constantly eroded.

[Sand dune Sam]

I think you will find that Remoaks comments are more snide in the sense they are directed at Australians...not the industry.

[Fruet Mich]

Well said Maxie,

Jetconnect can't fly VH registered aircraft. Couldn't get it past the Qantas union.

Stick to your unions boys!

[remoak]

No my comments are not aimed at Aussies. Kiwis are just as capable of completely screwing themselves through an over-reliance on adversarial union activity.

Horatio

Fair enough, however many would say that the "erosion" you speak of is simply the market finding it's level with regard to pilot renumeration. Many would say that pilot salaries were always artificially high, that the job no longer carries the same risks or responsibilities as it once did before FMS and FBW, and that of course pilots will moan if they see their pay packets being hit, but their complaints are unjustified in the modern employment market. It's simply a matter of perspective. That is one of the reasons that pilots will pay money to go and fly for Jetstar and the likes.

I'm not saying I agree with any of those views expressed above - I think there is a balance to be found. The American pilots went on a jihad a few years ago to force airlines to pay them more. They got what they demanded, but shortly thereafter airlines were filing for chapter 11 and most of the pilots have now given back what they won a few years ago. Many are even worse off than they were. There is a lesson there that Aussies and Kiwis would do well to learn.

The job simply isn't as valued as highly as it once was. Sad, but true. No amount of chest-beating is going to chnage that.

[PegasusFury99]

Horatio,

In Europe its 7-12 MONTHS into the right seat of a B737NG or A320! Very few T Props here to cut your teeth on.

Last week I flew with an F/O who only has 300hrsTT. 12 new F/Os started over the winter - all with 300hrs. Last winter with another 300hr TT F/O on his first line flt, T/O vis 150/150/150, landed 4:40hr later in 800m sand storm, then that evening landing in Europe CAT3A.

AND - not one word of BITCHING ALL DAY !!!!!!!!:ok:

[Wideglider]

Mich, I think Jetconnect will be flying both ZK & VH Tails just as Pac Blue/VB do. Jetconnect in the process of getting ASIC and Aussie ATPL's.:hmm:
Have not heard of any union objections to this!:confused: May have had ear muffs on for walk around!!!:ok:

Kiwilad, NZALPA have asked the question re NZJ* taking over domestic flying in NZ. Nothing heard at this stage, and I doubt it will come to anything.:sad: I agree with you re Crews from QF, VB and soon J* Oz filling in as required for their off shoots in NZ. Seems to me that they all moan about loss of their conditions and yet they cross the pond to help out!!
Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:=

remoak I agree with you too, our job is not as highly valued now as it use to be! Whilst "automation" has turned us into 'managers' rather than 'hands on operators' we are still responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment every time we move off the airbridge! This responsibility and the associated risks are still out there [perhaps a little less obvious than it use to be} and this should never be forgotten! I do not think pilot salaries alone have been behind the downfall of any Airline. Rather they are used as one of many scapegoat's when things go wrong.

J*NZ has already had to change it's departure times because of customer complaint's and it's not even flying yet! However I'm sure it will survive in some form, if only as a feeder for international's rather than a stand alone domestic operator!

Interesting times!

Cheers,

Wideglider. {Always remember, "This could be the one"}

[remoak]

we are still responsible for hundreds of lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment every time we move off the airbridge

Sure, but so are train drivers, bus drivers (to a lesser extent), ferry captains, and so on.

The difference is that aviation is now perceived as "low risk", which paradoxically works against pilots being paid high salaries. Why would you pay a guy a six-figure salary to drive a computer with wings?

When I first started in this industry, the (civil) uniform meant something and the public generally respected what it represented. Little boys would ask for your autograph on the back of a timetable, that sort of thing. Those days are long gone, thanks mainly to the LCCs and their reduction of the airline to the status of a cheap bus service.

Personally I am quite grateful that I had the bulk of my career in the days before LCCs were quite so rampant.

It's pretty much all downhill from here.

[dodgybrothers]

pegasus: no whinging because he probably couldn't get a word out because he was so sh!tscared!

[Walter E Kurtz]

Are you a GA champion Dodgey?

Your suggested fearful response to routine flying smacks of ignorance.

I would rather fly with an enthusiastic 300 hour European integrated school graduate every day over a 3000 hour OZ GA astronaut with attitude. Swinging the propellers in the sunshine is way over-rated. Airlines know this too, have one tally your logbook for an independant appraisal.

GA wankers....

[Chocks Away]

Swinging the propellers in the sunshine is way over-rated... GA wankers....

...and you'd be making that comment from a Cadetship or Defence Force background no doubt Walter?:hmm:

Tell me then Walter, over the past decade why have European and Asian Carriers been so active (to this day!), in their hiring of Aust/NZ "GA/Regional wankers"???

Min time/cadets/MPL came about because of the shortage of such experienced "GA/Regional wankers" from many countries worldwide.

From what I have experienced in my 20 years so far is that, no matter what training is given, you can not substitute (GA ******) command time. I have witnessed those that have tried and when under the pump after a so called "routine flying" takes a non-normal, they have crumbled and leaned on the often more experienced F/O heavily, or it's all gone to ****e simply because they have had no experience/real incidents to draw/learn from.

Sadly now the profession is just about putting 2 bums on the seats in the pointy end, so long as they have a license. I hear and read Pornstar NZ accordingly, are having to draw F/O's from a pool of SJS candidates (www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,doc_view/gid,24/Itemid,85.html ) willing to accept the tripe on offer, as the experience simply is no longer around (granted NZ Regionals still have a large pool of experience, living regionally).

I've certainly taken my shades off, because the short term future of this industry is not so bright, with "the race to the bottom". It's fast becoming a financially insane profession to personally maintain.

Happy Landings:ok:

[Walter E Kurtz]

Tell me then Walter, over the past decade why have European and Asian Carriers been so active (to this day!), in their hiring of Aust/NZ "GA/Regional wankers"???


I'll tell then. And to start, OZ pilots migrated in two waves not one. The first beginning in 1989 and the second in 2001. Most of these pilots were not from GA, but from airlines. Their abilities and experience having been improved by several years of structure and disipline.

I have flown with many pilots from integrated training systems, low on hours but with structure and discipline. From many countries they came too, Ireland, Germany, Malaysia to name a few. Overall an excellent product. Very knowlegable and eager to learn.

On the flip side, you have an OZ FO with 3000 hours swinging propellors, after 500 hours on the jet he is already thumping his fist for command? There is so much to learn. This OZ cultural assertiveness that foreign airlines appreciate generally as a positive, also has a dark side. Rather than learn, many GA astronauts chose to sulk and whine.

I know who I would rather be flying with every day :)

[remoak]

Have to agree with Walter. I went over there in 88 and saw the same two waves of Antipodeans. A lot of the '89ers ended up banging around on turboprops as the downturn started shortly thereafter.

I was involved in check and training, and the hardest job was normally training (or should I say de-training) mouthy Aussies and Kiwis, who had 3000+ hours GA time and thought they knew everything. Suffice it to say that they all got somewhat of a wakeup call when the first Euro winter hit...

By contrast the 300 hour approved course folk "got it" straight away and were generally a pleasure to fly with. Our company used to take on several of these folk every year, straight into the right seat of the 146, and we never had a problem with any of them.

It seems that many Antipodeans just can't help themselves when it comes to being aggressive and arrogant. Not all of them were like that, but the ones that were, were really bad news.

[Chocks Away]

At the risk of thread drift, it wasn't just 2 waves. There was another huge intake with "validations" in '97, '98 and '99 from majors in the EU, not to mention the constant stream off to Cathay & Dragon.

This OZ cultural assertiveness that foreign airlines appreciate generally as a positive, also has a dark side.
Yes, agreed. It could possibly just come down to how they were bought up and if they copped a smack over the ear-hole as a child, or were spoilt brats. Maturity. Those I mixed with weren't as you say. Many are now though.

"There are only those that have had an incident and those who are about to!"
...it's a very costly mistake to learn it on a jet.

[Fruet Mich]

Wideglider, why is it that Jetconnect are getting ZK registered 800's ZK-ZQA, ZQB and ZQC? and just spent a lot of money putting ZK-JTS on the NZ register? Because NZCAA won't allow it and the Qantas union wouldn't allow it the last time Jetconnect tried for the 400's with RNP. Jetstar NZ currently does not have an AOC because NZCAA won't allow VH registered aircraft to fly domestic NZ routes. I think you'll find that Pac Blue operate ZK registered aircraft domestically in NZ.

There is no mention of VH Jetconnect aircraft and will not be. Let me know when you hear from Jetconnect management they are getting VH registered aircraft and then ask them to send a memo out to their staff. Until then it's a dream that woke you up late last night.

Case and point about being patient with management. Jet* now offering Capt's free type rating because they can't get capt's. However because of the FO's all falling over eah other, they have F*$ked themselves with a crap salary and 50% of a capt salary. Great work guys!! As I've said before No pilots, no passengers. We are the masters of our own destiny. Looks like a pretty crappy one from where I'm sitting? Yeah?

[horserun]

So they will pay for the Captains rating but not the FOs, who they are going to pay F**K all too?????????


These guys have to be the biggest pack of C**ts under the sun! I hope the person coming up with these T&Cs gets run over by a bus.......really slowly, and feet first.

[Fruet Mich]

Remoak.......

In regards to your comments about FMC and FBW and pilots overpaid flying aircraft that are low risk and fly themselves, please explain to me why as an industry that is low risk, we still have numerous CFIT accidents and continual pilot error killing passengers. I know of numerous pilots that don't make the grade to fly your so called easy to fly computer with wings.

Also explain to me why other professions that now use modern computing technoligy such as bankers, achitech's, etc have not suffered these pay cuts as do the aviation professional pilots?

I can understand a bus driver being paid peanuts, at the end of the day anybody can drive a bus. According to an earlier post a manly ferry deck hand earns 75K, so I'm guessing a ferry capt would be paid a substancial amount more.

Have you also had a think about how much it costs to learn to fly our so called "low risk" computer wings that we're all so over paid to fly?

$65000 AS AN FO ON AN AIRBUS YA NUMB NUT!! Geezus!! ya can't get the point through to these guys? Sounds like comments that would come from a guy behind a desk earning six figures with a flash low risk computer! Bloody hell????

[Sand dune Sam]

I can see where remoak is coming from, though I dont agree with all his opinions....however, while ever our Kiwi bretheren are prepared to work for low pay and conditions, this will only continue.

[PegasusFury99]

Thats another reason I prefer to leave NZ every winter and fly in Europe (its summer over there) every year.:ok::ok:

The sooner 89 is buried the better. It is a cancer that permeates Australian and NZ aviation.:uhoh:

Remoak #57 - I concur!!

[Wideglider]

Mich, In a round about way you have answered the question yourself re how Jetconnect will be operating VH aircraft. Come June they will be International Ops only. It follows that they too will be able to operate both VH & ZK just as Pac Blue do. Also heard they will be cycling aircraft through Oz for maintainance.
With no more ops to CHC they will need a new maintainance base!
I have still not heard any rumours of unions stopping anything. Only stumbling block is NZ CAA's archaic practices! Still as people change so do the rules!

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story!:ok:

Wideglider.

[remoak]

Fruet Mich

In regards to your comments about FMC and FBW and pilots overpaid flying aircraft that are low risk and fly themselves, please explain to me why as an industry that is low risk, we still have numerous CFIT accidents and continual pilot error killing passengers. I know of numerous pilots that don't make the grade to fly your so called easy to fly computer with wings.I didn't say that modern aircraft ARE low risk, I said that they are PERCEIVED as low risk by those outside the industry (ie pax). You and I know differently, but the airlines and aircraft manufacturers have done such a good job of convincing the public of the safety of air travel, that most people see it as no more risky than catching the double decker to Picadilly Circus.

Also explain to me why other professions that now use modern computing technoligy such as bankers, achitech's, etc have not suffered these pay cuts as do the aviation professional pilots?They didn't so much have their pay cut, as their jobs removed from them. Not so much architects, being creative people their main stock-in-trade is ideas, which are worth whatever people will pay for them.

$65000 AS AN FO ON AN AIRBUS YA NUMB NUT!! Geezus!! ya can't get the point through to these guys? Sounds like comments that would come from a guy behind a desk earning six figures with a flash low risk computer! Bloody hell???? Maybe when you calm down and return to the planet that the rest of us live on, you will be able to read what I wrote - carefully - and understand better what was written!

Sand dune Sam
I dont agree with all his opinionsNot my opinions... perception.

PegasusFury

The sooner 89 is buried the better

It will never, ever happen. Aussies hang on their bitterness until they die. Probably not helped by the dawning realisation that they basically did it to themselves - having been comprehensively outsmarted by Abeles and Hawke (and others).

Ansett NZ story isn't much different in that regard.

[PegasusFury99]

Remoak
- 89 is another reason why I DONT FLY in Oz or NZ.
- I am good enough to fly for many carriers in Europe, but not good enough for
any Oz or NZ carrier.
- How many of you have been told "I only hire men I know from the past" ie. my
89 mates.:bored:

[remoak]

hey, I hear you!

Flying in Europe is fun though, far more interesting and better money. I've been doing the contract gig over there, and apart from the long commute, it's a pretty good life.

[waren9]

Oh how I wish I had access to an EU passport! I for one, am one generation too far removed to be grandfathered a British passport.
Not everyones got that luxury fellas.

[pigdriver]

Was just talking to a mate who was interviewed for a cmd position, and he was offered either auckland or christchurch as a base. I thought they were keeping the christchurch base with the oz conditions???? He also said alot of the jetconnect capts from the recently closed christchurch base are very interested, especially with the mention and offers of a base down there...
Was also told most of the f/o positions are to be filled by kiwis coming from the turbo prop operators throughout NZ.

[blacksmoke]

Have also heard of guys being offered Christchurch as a base. I would imagine these will be very popular with the Jetconnect guys from CH who have been told to move to Akl???

[UTW]

Hi Fruet

"According to an earlier post a manly ferry deck hand earns 75K, so I'm guessing a ferry capt would be paid a substancial amount more."

From the horses mouth (ie an ex Manly ferry skipper) they earn around $130,000 pa plus overtime with 10 weeks annual leave. The staff travel is excellent too (as long as you travel by ferry!)

[Split Flap]

Latest to hand... Further to the pathetic wages, the pilots have to fork out for Jepps, medical and uniform.

What a deal :yuk:

[pigdriver]

Same as the tiger airways deal, and except for the uniform, the same as the oz setup I believe as well.......

[Fruet Mich]

Has anyone got the contact details for Jetstar NZ!!?? I really need to put an application foward! I need to feed my family some lentils, All you guys out there, know me before you judge me. I just spoke to my wife, she's an accountant, and she reckons If I don't fork out $45k, pay for my jepps, medical and uniform I'd be a bloody idiot and she'll leave me because at least $65kNZD will top up the lentals each week. I told her I could earn more on the Manly ferry as a deck hand, but she had an issue with Manly ferrys over Jets? something about my old fella? Whats up with that? Please guys I'm desperate!!

[remoak]

How long do you think it will be before instructing pays more than Jetstar? :ok:

[Sand dune Sam]

remoak..in the UAE, instructing DOES pay more than Jetstar!!

[ZK-NSN]

are we talking aerobics instructor or flight instructor?

Most flying instructors get given a uniform though.

[remoak]

Mmmm... spandex! :ok:

[puff]

I seriously reakon when they work out these 'conditions' they sit around the table and go - nah go less than that...nah less - lets see how low we can go, people will still apply. Sadly I reakon they could offer 45K and people would still apply! I'd put money on them still having more applicants than positions!

Perhaps we'll go like GA - pay for your endorsement and hang around the airport and we'll give you a trial - then we might put you on casually! It's a bastard sweeping the hanger at an airline though! :P

I guess it's closing the gap in wages between pilots and other jobs in the transport industry such as forklift/bus/train/ferry drivers!

[Pamelah Andersen]

Puff...sadly the gap is widening...

Compared to the gigs you listed you'd find a Jet Star NZ fo is worse off in every case especially after being scamed 50kNZ+ for an A320 ticket. Do the #'s on it, they are sh:{t. Paying for interviews and maintain jeppensen charts at individuals expense (surely the operators responsibility) is disgraceful and representative of corporate greed bordering extreme.

[Fruet Mich]

We'll be back loading bags and checking in our pax next! Na won't happen boys and girls. When the world economy is on track again and the pilot shortage is worse than ever Jet* will be in the crap when all their experienced A320 pilots ditch them for a more in line industry standard paying gig. Their smart thinking and smug smiling will have an adverse affect and bite them in the arse in the long run. It will happen, Happened to Jetconnect and nearly shut them down. Management are always short sighted. Always look at the current cost saving and not the future of the company. Can't wait, I'll laugh my tits off! Man boobs that is.

[Sunstar320]

Interested to hear if they got their numbers for their Domestic Launch soon? Is the proposed pay rate debated about in this thread the real deal, or has there been some negotiations taking place..?

[27/09]

I heard a rumour that Jetsar is offering about $9500/month for New Zealand FO's. That sounds like OK money to me.

[craka]

Na that's to the CTC/EASYJET crew they will get down here on secondment to cover the shortfall in crew numbers - probably what a Captain earns, imagine the cockpit dynamic. It's actually $9500 plus incentive pay of $125 per hour over 75.

[Sand dune Sam]

Sadly whats happening is QF and Jetstar are exploiting lower wages and conditions in NZ from people that would be prepared to work for less....if nothing is done about it soon, it could have ramifications for Jetstar and other airlines in Australia....

I say to the Kiwis and others looking at this..look beyond the shiny jet syndrome, put your foot down and make a stand for a change, instead of accepting low pay and conditions, then whinging in 12 months time that your Australian counterparts get paid more...nows the time to show some backbone....your choice....you guys in NZALPA, AFAP and AIPA need to get behind each other and become united.

[Fruet Mich]

Well said Sand dune. Unfortunately there are those who are very shortsighted, that includes Jetstar management.

To those FO's currently taking up this offer, shame on you. You can look back on this in 10 years time and proudly say that YOU played a part in the lowering of T&C's in Australasia. Management puppets.

Please don't bother writing your snivling comments to cover up your insecurity and willingness to get ahead of your fellow aviators at ANY expense.

To all the girls and guys out there with a backbone and integrity, hang in there. Say NO to these ridiculous insulting T&C's. They are getting better and provided we all so no they will be bought up to an industry standard.

To Jetstar Management. Your shortsighted approach to this industry will eventually bite you in the arse. With inexperience comes accidents, and when there is an accident, you will be exposed and very alone. The recent Q400 accident in the states is the case and point. Your low salaries will have an adverse affect for your future operations.

[27/09]

Na that's to the CTC/EASYJET crew they will get down here on secondment to cover the shortfall in crew numbers Thanks for clearing that up Craka

I have since heard that Jetstar are also paying travel and accomodation costs for these guys.

This isn't making sense to me. Everyones bitching about the T & C's being offered, yet Jetstar are paying well in excess of $110,000pa for temporary FO's.

I know short term contracts attract a premium for salary but if they can afford to pay this amount surely they can pay a good market rate for their own valuable permanent staff.

Since they aren't paying a fair rate the obvious message is they don't value their own staff.

[apache]

good news is that NZALPA are on the case, and like a good fight!

[Dixons Cider]

Its a positive step if NZALPA are looking at getting involved.

Just as a matter of interest, anybody willing to give some ball park figures for an Air Nelson FO/Capt?
Not saying Jetstar should be comparable, just like to have a handle on the current market state of play there, the others I sort of know. cheers

[Bongo Bus Driver]

DC Air Nsn salaies go like this.

Captains start on $72000 increasing yearly. 10yrs plus gets $108000
FOs $44000 up to $63000 after 7yrs. If you have your ATPL subjects then you get yr2 which is close to $50000.

7.5% super. Can elect to put some in Kiwisaver and the rest in normal super fund or chuck it all in one.

Allowances anywhere between $5 - $10000yr depending on base. Some bases get heaps of overnights whilst others hardly get any.

My roster sees me doing 100-120hrs duty/month and 50-60hrs flying. 10days RDO per month and 2 of those being a weekend. Some rosters have no standbys whilst others have heaps just depends.

[rescue 1]

Why pilots on this forum are losing sleep about the terms and conditions being offered by this mob (Jet*) I don't know :ugh:

Don't work for them - market forces will then drive up the T&C's! And at the same time lets not knock those that do accept the positions - with unemployment on the rise, airlines falling over in what seems like every second day, people have to keep food on the table and they are paying more than the dole!

good news is that NZALPA are on the case, and like a good fight!

A good fight - now there's a spirit of collaboration!! That always works :sad:

NZALPA are currently reacting to Jetconnect's closure of the Christchurch base, and the transfer of flying to Jetstar. The Employment Act regarding employee protection in the event of restructuring/transfer of business is clear - I am surprised that ALPA have left the challenge to the 9th hour. The ramifications could be quite interesting indeed...

[pigdriver]

Well said. If you dont like whats on offer, dont go, but with the way airlines are falling, and the fact that the jobs are certainly drying up at a great rate of knots, (especially in asia ), you cant blame the guys who do end up taking the positions.
Throw in the recent tax changes (in aust) that the labour gov have brought in, its very quickly becoming not worth trying to work overseas on short term, or commuting contracts, so I would imagine you will start to see more and more guys coming back and taking jobs like this one to be home.
After all, Pacblue have had a regular supply of kiwis coming back from the sandpit, and they are working for less than whats on offer with Jetstar.

[On Guard]

How is JS going to start with Queenstown? If they are using Australians and contractors I thought you had to do actual flights in as well as sims for RNP into QN? Perhaps they will start off using the conventional approach. I certainly hope they don't scare themselves with what sounds like a low local pilot base.

How are Air National going with Ground handling, I would have thought it was a big ask for them to set up this op and run things on time with so little experience in this area. Domestic will put the pressure on.

[Fruet Mich]

Pigdriver I'm really unsure exactly what contract you're referring to when you keep bantering around about Jetstar pays more than Pacific Blue or any other NZ airline? I'm afraid you're very illinformed.

You may be right with Capt's, but I guess thats why the Capt salary has slowly been creeping up to meet "MARKET RATES" Jetstar cant get Capt's! but they can get FO's eager for the first shot at the jets. 50% of Capt salary!!!

PACIFIC BLUE FIRST OFFICER base $91,500 plus duty time allowance of $4.20 for every hour at work. 180 seat airliner

JETCONNECT FIRST OFFICER base $89,000 plus $4.35 DTA and $100hr incentive over 65hrs. . 142 seat airliner

JETSTAR FIRST OFFICER base $65,000 plus what? 180 seat airliner.

Jetstar require $181 for a Pshyc assessment. Pay to do a sim assessment, pay for your medical, pay for your Jepps.

So please explain to me how Jetstar pay more and have better T&C's than Pac Blue or any other operator in NZ.

Just remember, people can go on about Pac Blue and Jetconnect initially having crappy conditions. Jetconnect was formed out of failed NZ airline and eventually taken over by Qantas. Pacific Blue was created for Pacific flights only and during a time when T&C's were already not very good in Virgin.

Jetstar is an established profitable QANTAS group airline with a current pilot CEA who is taking over an already established QANTAS group airline with a current CEA at T&C's far below the current NZ industry T&C's of any other NZ airline or that of the current T&C's for Jetstar Australia.

You can argue this point until the cows (or pigs ) come home but at the end of the day, you have no arguement. Well you have a very weak arguement. Plain and simple, exploiting workers in it's finest form.

Care to ellaborate Pigdriver?

[pigdriver]

Fruet nich, I know as a fact, J* are now paying more than pacblue. The first few guys who have all gone through the training are all ex pacblue, and I can tell you right now, they are on a better deal with jetstar!! As far as f/o's go, I dont know anything about their deal, other than after chating to a checky the otherday, most are coming from regionals and hence all need to be rated, thus they require short term temp crew to get it going.
By the way,I believe they have got the required capt numbers,so before you go shouting off at people, get your facts right.

[UDH]

Pigdriver,
You state "get your facts right" to others, when they are quoting known numbers.
All you have said is hearsay and innuendo. I think you need to back yourself and come with facts before YOU go shouting off at people.

[pigdriver]

I am just stating a known fact, that the first few capts going through are ex pacblue. As fruet mich said, "you might be right re capts". Well I am. As I have said, I dont really know much about ,nor do I care about the f/o situation, hence I have never quoted amounts, as I dont know or care.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Hey Pigdriver
What regionals are these FOs coming from?

When PB and JC were recruiting the crew rooms were abuzz with people talking about their interviews and getting the nod. I have not heard of one person being interviewed let alone going to J*.

I would assume that J* would get their FOs from places like Air National and Airwork.

[pigdriver]

To be honest bongo driver, I didn't ask ,so dont know.Sorry cant help.

[Fruet Mich]

It'll be interesting to see how these temp crews from overseas will get by the NZ government and obtain work visa's so that they can work for a NZ company when pilots are not listed as a labour shortage in NZ. I really think Qantas and it's Jetstar subsidery have gone like a bull at a gate without even looking into NZ employment law. Oh dear.

Ahhh the irony, Poor old Jetstars masterplan is turning to shyte. Whats Brucie gonna do now? Classic watching this all unfold!

Piggy, thats exactly what I've been raving on about throughout all these Jetstar NZ threads. Capt's salaries have risen due to lack of interest. It still a long way off what the "industry standard" is. And yes so is Pac Blue and Jetconnect. We don't need these going any lower.

If FO's had held out, they to would have been well situated for better conditions. Jetstar have built a business case to operate in NZ on the Jetstar Australia model with their assossiated costs. If they came into the market offering fair T&C's as what are paid to Jetstar Aus employees, they wouldn't have this situation and it all wouldn't be crumbling around their ears. As I 've said, offering low terms and conditions have adverse affects! That is the same in any industry, not just aviation.

To the guys and gals out there that have said thanks but no thanks, hats off to you all.

[SuperDooperEngineer]

Fruet Mich, Same story with the Engineers that keep the planes flying, please remember!!

They tried to cut the wages with AKL and had no sucess so have gone to Air Nz now to do the work and will pay through the nose!!!

Did it with CHC engineers as well and the base did not get fully staffed for agers.

Just pay the $ and things will work out right from go, its quite simple.

[6080ft]

It seems that Jetstar are getting some FO's form Eagle and Air Nelson. I personally know 2 of the people.

[PegasusFury99]

Hi Guys and Gals (moaners and groaners)

Just to let you all know its 30deg here in N Europe today. BBQ with some crew mates (and maties) this arvo - ladies you dont need to bring a plate- just a smile and your pleasant company XX. Guys- you know what to do - BBQ ready, salad, pavlova (Yes I made it and they love it with fresh strawberries and CREAM). Chilled white wine - too many to choose from - that lovely one we had from the Mosel valley (thats in Germany just down the road) was well recieved by the ladies last week. Beer - well guys there are 438 beers in this country so dont take too long too choose. We will leave the german beers for next week!:E

Guess what - there is NO BITCHING here - thats why I fly half way around the world to work.

:ok::ok:

[Dixons Cider]

Bongo bus driver

thanks for the reply :ok:

[27/09]

PegasusFury99

It's great to hear things are rosy where you are especially if you like strawberries and cream with your beer.

Have to wonder why you have to keep telling us exactly how good it its.

Reminds me a of a fairy tale about a poor soul, who, once they had made the decision to do something found out that it wan't all beer and skittles, but to not look stupid they kept telling their friends and themselves how good things were.

[Fruet Mich]

Thats nice pegasus, I'm all warm inside after you wee rendition of the sound of music. Still, it makes you wonder why expats are coming home in droves? Is the beer warm fella?

Each to their own I guess, I myself, would much rather be at home with friends and family TRYING to earn a fair wage for my profession.

I guess we'll keep bitching over here and you can hold up our end of the bar for us in Europe with all the ladies on your arm. Ya lucky guy! :rolleyes:

Hey superdooper, I think most of us pilots with any backnone in this industry would remember you guys and back you wholeheartedly! The only guys that seem to do ok in this industry are the CEO's and their puppet managers that receive huge bonuses for screwing over the workers below them.

[slice]

pegasus - I don't quite know what the point of your post was but this is a thread concerning industrial issues and the rapid erosion of terms and conditions in NZ. Inevitably this is not going to be all 'sweetness and light' so if it is too much for you then no one is forcing you to read it.

[Artificial Horizon]

Actually the deal at Jetstar is not all that bad, I interviewed last year at no cost to myself. I am going to join Jetstar NZ in a couple of months after 10 years in the UK. I already have an A320 typerating so will not be bonded, I get a $15,000 signing on bonus and bringing a little bit of cash back. Good promotion prospects if the expansion continues on especially with 4,000 hours airbus time and I get to live back in NZ. Things are looking pretty rosey from my point of view, after having done the turboprop / longhaul / shorthaul thing I just want to live in NZ. Jetstar will always attract people like me I suspect. If you don't want to work for them then don't apply. Simple!

[who_cares]

Glad to see your so happy AH

So we wont see you moaning when your working 4days a week doing only 75hrs no overtime.

Or the transfer you to an Australian base paying you NZD, which is just the reverse of whats happening with the Jetstar aus guys in CHC at the moment.

Dont think it wont happen, here is a copy of the Easyjet advert for contract guys. Notice that they can second them to an Aussie base.

We have received a request from our training provider CTC Aviation to supply 10 current Airbus First
Officers employed on a UK contract to Jetstar, a Qantas company. Jetstar is a large and well known
low cost operator in Australia which is expanding into New Zealand with a new operation
commencing at the end of May 2009. The First Officers are required for approximately 4 months and
will be based primarily in either Auckland or Christchurch. This information has also been issued as a
L2 ADMIN NTC.
Applicant requirements:
Currently qualified A320 family First Officers with a minimum of 1500 hrs total time, at least 500
hrs on the A319/320 and 250 hrs P1 including 150 PICUS. Successful pilots will have their JAA
licence validated locally which will entail sitting AUS or NZ Air law together with a simulator flight
test which will be combined with the normal OPC requirement.
Conditions:
Selected First Officers will be given unpaid leave by easyJet for the period required and relevant
authorisations to work outside easyJet for the period of the secondment. Departure is required
imminently. CTC will contract pilots through a short term employment contract and tax will be
deducted at source from your remuneration.
Remuneration:
Monthly remuneration is expected to be in the region of NZ$10,750 per month (£4300) or pro rata for
the period of the secondment. This comprises of a fixed sum of NZ$9500 (£3800) per month with
hours in excess of 75 per month (averaged over 2 months) meriting an additional payment of NZ$125
per hour. Sample rosters indicate a monthly activity of 85 hours. Per diems are payable at variable
rates for any night stops away from base.
Base:
Currently nominated as Auckland or Christchurch but Jetstar retains the right to second pilots to a
base in Australia if required.
Accommodation:
Serviced accommodation will be provided by Jetstar at the base of operation.
Travel:
Jetstar will provide economy travel with upgrade to Business subject to space available to Bangkok.
Confirmed Business class from Bangkok to Melbourne where initial training will be conducted. All
other air travel to base of operation will be provided by Jetstar.
Visas and permits:
CTC will arrange for all visas and work permits – please note that pilots should have no previous
refusals of visa or work permits on record, nor have any knowledge of a condition that might preclude
the granting of entry into Australia or New Zealand.
Summary & Application process:
If you wish to apply for this secondment opportunity, easyJet will release you on unpaid leave for the
period and CTC will make all other arrangements according to the terms described.
If you are interested in this secondment then please apply as soon as possible to An

[Spanked]

pegasus - I don't quite know what the point of your post was but this is a thread concerning industrial issues and the rapid erosion of terms and conditions in NZ. Inevitably this is not going to be all 'sweetness and light' so if it is too much for you then no one is forcing you to read it.
Uh err he was pointing out the alternative to staying dunnunder and having to smoke jetstar for a living.

[slice]

Well that may have been his intent, but rather than crapping on about a bbq that no one here is the slightest bit interested in and quite frankly could have been anywhere, did he not elaborate on some useful information, such as terms and conditions, as well as required experience by whoever his employer is? In reality, I don't think there is much hiring going on in Europe at the moment so smokin jetstar is all that is around now.

[Con Catenator]

who cares -

Well may Jetstar retain an option of basing these crews in Australia, because they may need them there sooner rather than later if the rumours of 6 or so resignations in Sydney prove to be true.:E

[Artificial Horizon]

Who Cares, what you seem to be missing is that the money aspect to me is of little importance, I would be more disappointed to be working 85 hours plus each month. 4 days a week sounds pretty good to me. If I was concerned about building hours and raking in the pay then I would stay exactly where I am. As for covering flying out of other bases, I will take that as it comes. From my point of view, CHC is a nice airport to operate from and the A320 is a lovely aircraft to fly on short haul ops, some of the approaches will be interesting and I can get back into watching proper ruggar!!

[PegasusFury99]

Winter 08/09 - 16 ab-initio F/Os ie 300hrs TT
Acft - 2 new B737
Spring 09 - 16 Contract Pilots
Still to come - ANOTHER acft
- and its CREW

T&C - excellent (thats why I am here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
WHO - A great company !:ok:

[Offcut]

Pegasus, you still don't seem to get it. Im sure we all feel warm and fluffy inside about how good you have it. We are all aware that there are better paying jobs with easier progression in other parts of the world. Many of us have given it a go. This thread is about the conditions available at home and hopefully about improving them for those of us that choose the benefits of our home country over the money abroad. We like it here, thats why we stay!

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Pegasus
Awesome I am glad for you. But what we are trying to do down here is bring T&Cs up to the standard you are currently receiving. Jetstar seeks to lower these and if they become competative then to maximise their profits Air NZ and PB will have to follow by lowering their T&Cs. Already Air NZ have annouced a review of the regional network headed up by a manager with a history in beating down the T&Cs of his staff.

AH
Awesome for you to. Welcome back. Just remember if you do get a Christchurch base it is at the demise of Jet Connect pilots and Jetstar pilots on the Aussie contract who either cannot afford to or have elected not to take a big pay cut to work for J* NZ. These pilots will have no choice but to seek employment overseas.

We call this the brain drain and it is a serious issue amongst all industries. If we let it continue then NZ will be full of students, low income earners and retirees. The rest of us will be at Pegasus's BBQ drinking his beer, chatting up his women and bragging about how go it is not to be home.

[Bombay]

Pegasus - delighted things are going so well for you over there.

Feel free to stay as long as you like.

[puma pants]

Pegasus, what are you smoking? I want some!

AH, well what can one say. I don't think you and your attitude will receive a warm welcome. Still, you have the right to do it, clearly no concept of teamwork though.

[PegasusFury99]

Check out Jetstar working Conditions thread #11.

Looks like HK is better than Europe.
Best you all enjoy working with those 'Downunder Managers!'

There is a simple solution - DONT WORK for the Wan%ers.
If there are no indians - there can NOT be a chief.
Did you not learn anything from history at school - eg. the great strikes etc.

Yes, I would like to work in my HOME country, but instead of working in an environment that is infested with idiots/fools/bitter twisted losers/backstabbing 'colleagues'/small minded blind 'gods' - I prefer to work the contract circuit where NONE of this exists.

Enjoy the sunrise:ok:

[who_cares]

Maybe since your a contractor Pegasus, all of what you have mentioned is happening behind your back.

[Sand dune Sam]

The only certainty with the likes of Pegasusfury99 is that he will get sick of his job wherever that may be. At the moment he's just a typical loud mouth enjoying what he has at this time........those of us that have been in aviation long enough know how circumstances change...and when they do for him, he will all of a sudden go quiet.....

[PegasusFury99]

YOU don't seem to get the message.

YOU all complain about T & Cs in New Zealand.
I did NOT like the Management personalities in some NZ airlines - so I took my skills overseas where they were accepted and well rewarded. I had a jet command with only 4000hr TT. Ref my previous post - if there are NO indians, there can be NO CHIEFs.

For those of you who are a little SLOW on the uptake -
I will put this in simple terms - IF YOU WORK FOR ARSEHOLES - PREPARED TO BE SCREWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:ok:

[puma pants]

Peg is making a very valid point. If the wonder boys who are picking up the Jet*NZ deal think that Jet* management are going to treat them with honour, then they are.... well; stupid!
If the management treat their current staff this way by under-cutting them, what do you think they'll do to the mugs who act as their "tool's" in this process.
In my experience, the wonder boys get treated very badly in the end.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Pegasus we do understand your point of view. You are happy to leave your home and thrive overseas. Cool. But we are not. We want your T&Cs here and we stay to fight for them. You enjoy your time away and if you return to fly in NZ you will more than likely benefit from the hard work being put in by all us whingers you currently look down on.

[PegasusFury99]

Bongo
You job is safe from me. I will NEVER fly in NZ. I dont have a NZ licence- they are no use overseas and have no intention of giving up my JAA licence.
I will only retire from aviation and enjoy living in NZ in a couple of years. Might sell a couple of houses in AKL and the Mt and buy a beach front property.

Sand Dune Sam - How are you enjoying counting the cockroaches on the beach in Casablanca ? or topping up your tan beside the mosque.

Rgds
PF99.

[Dixons Cider]

Pegasus Fury
You're flogging a dead horse mate, and I can see no point in your assertions as to justifying your reasons for not flying in NZ. These guys have a desire to improve the deal in their home patch, I cannot see the reason to slate them for it. Back them up man, aviation is a small world.

I'm pleased for you that your content with your decision to head offshore, I hope the euphoria lasts for you, because many that do eventually start to hanker for the homeland one day.

[Sand dune Sam]

All part of exploring other cultures really PF99...You would know all about that ,as you are a wellspring in International contract flying......I've seen many parts of the world...thing is, I dont need to be at a party with other loud mouths, backslap my mates about it, then feel the need to post my bravado on a public forum...... whatever floats your boat though mate....Enjoy the UK, least it's warmer than NZ at this time of year.....:ok:

[blow.n.gasket]

Only just!:ok:

[PegasusFury99]

Holy Sh!T - A Bloo?y Heat wave

London 27
Southampton 28
Bristol 27
Cambridge 28
Birmingham 26
Manchester 25

Amsterdam 25
Brussels 25
Paris 26
Rome 29
Munchen 26
Geneva 27

Baarrbbeeeeeeeeesssss Here we come.:ok:

Hey Guys - its been great fishing these last few days. The 'catch' has been great. One must away now and do ones duty at - YES - the BBQ:ok:

AND - ACARs gave me CHC M00, WLG 4 :suspect:
:ok:

[horserun]

Thats because it is winter in this part of the world, and summer in yours.
Have a look at your ACARs in 6 months time, and you may just see these trends reversed. Crazy I know!

[slice]

Well people for all the problems with Jetstar NZ at least you don't have to put up with PF99. If he talks the way he posts, he's a loud oafish tw@t, something I have found Europeans generally averse to, but he probably wouldn't notice. :hmm:

[Falling Leaf]

So I guess there is really no news about Jetstar NZ then, just the usual playground slagging that DG&P is infamous for... what a waste of time.

[Horatio Leafblower]

WLG 4?

F*ck that's cold for Walget... :eek:

[rescue 1]

Falling leaf - you got that right! :)

Agree totally...

[PegasusFury99]

Falling Leaf

- I concur.:ok:

[slice]

Utterly Hilarious PF99 - you were the one that started the slagging in the first place. We don't really care what you do in Europe - except maybe stay there for the benefit of all in Aust / NZ.

[horserun]

So how did the first day of domestc ops go yesterday?

[fourholes]

slice.

You took the words right out my mouth :ugh: <It's like doing this with that guy.

[Sunstar320]

So how did the first day of domestc ops go yesterday?
Delays basically or "teething problems" as the Mr Head Honcho said...

They are going to go through the same pain that Tiger consistently goes through with their small fleet, once one goes tech, everything else is :mad:

[Skybus_319]

Seing they have been going for 2 months now, did they get their guys on that wage? Or did they up the wage that was on offer...?

And what happened with the easyjet association, things have gone quiet on the JQ NZ front.

[sfoxs]

wellington 17 today!


never put your family on jet* to zqn............never

[joe cool69]

Why? Can you back that up

[captncannot]

Sfoxs:
never put your family on jet* to zqn............never

There's really no need to get all overstimulated about launching a space shuttle mission into NZQN. I know what they fed you at the aeroclub, but in the airline world it's just another airport. Category C/X/whatever you care to call it, sure. Famil training required, yes, maybe even a Captain's approach only :}

But it's really nothing to get all worked up over. There are tricky airports all over the world, many trickier than QN, which is a quiet country airfield in a small remote country with a mild winter. Yes it happens to have some mountains around it, but they're not particularly large or snowy.

No need to get all parochial backwater on it and slag off the entire jet* crew, I think you'll find the boys cope just fine. But they should be paid a ****load more :ok:

[sfoxs]

NZCAA very sad they have no aurthority over jet* VH ops into zqn. CASA no help at all (no surprise). Zqn tower watch and wonder!
Captcant have you ever been to zqn? Commanded a 121 jet in there???

[joe cool69]

sfoxs,

If you have something to say, just say it.

"NZCAA very sad" - what about? Would a box of tissues help?
"CASA no help" - what should they be doing?
"ZQN watch and wonder" - of course they should be watching but what are they wondering about?

If you have an agenda or opinion, just speak up. Simple:ok:

[belowMDA]

I think the ZQN tower is running an office bet on how long it takes them to stack one into the hills! I too wouldn't be encouraging anyone to put their family on jetstar through ZQN anytime soon and that is because I have seen some stuff that I think is stupid and reckless.

Yep the tower watches and wonders because when the NZCAA spoke to CASA about some concerns they were told to shove it. Whose interests are being looked after, the flying public or Qantas/Jetstar?

[horserun]

What about the easyjet guys? They still here?? for how much longer?

[framer]

because I have seen some stuff that I think is stupid and reckless.


Like what? Nobody seems to be able to give any real examples of anything unsafe.
I don't fly in there anymore but used to and it can get quite busy/tricky if you have nasty weather. The wind is the biggest thing I think, it comes from many different directions at different speeds as you make your way around the basin sometimes.
I'm with Joe-cool on this though, if you can't give an example then don't say they're unsafe.
Framer

[Artificial Horizon]

Intersting, if the QN tower is really running this sort of bet then they are being 'grossly negligent' in thier postions and should be reported as such. Having a good number of friends in the ATC profession I find it very hard to believe that any ATC worth his/her wieght in salt would make childish bets instead of official complaints if an airline was really 'in thier opinion' about to have a major accident. I think what you are saying is a big load of ****. To all those who keep saying that J* is reckless in thier opertations into QN, please give us some real examples. Or is it just a fact that in a narrow minded NZ mentallity you are trying to say AIR NEW ZEALAND GOOD, all other foreign OPERATORS BAD!! Can I just ask why you think that J* poses such a risk?? The aircraft are brand new, well equipped, the pilots are experienced (not just in NZ flying either) and they have to adhere to all the regulations just as ANZ do. At the moment they don't get into QN all of the time due to certification issues with the RNAV arrival, but this is something that can only be resolved in time - no shortcuts!! I can tell you also that as stated above QN is just another airport and is a piece of p*ss compared to some places around the world that I and many others have operated into and out of.

[horserun]

Intersting, if the QN tower is really running this sort of bet then they are being 'grossly negligent' in thier postions and should be reported as such. Having a good number of friends in the ATC profession I find it very hard to believe that any ATC worth his/her wieght in salt would make childish bets


Mate you must know some square controllers. The ones I know have the darkest sense of humour.

Just listen to these guys at the end of the video....

YouTube - Russian Airplane Departing Australia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BY7-LgF7d4)

[27/09]

when the NZCAA spoke to CASA about some concerns they were told to shove it.

Did this really happen? If it did then you have to wonder what is going on.

[slamer.]

All operations at any airport should be treated with equal respect.

[framer]

Still no examples aye.....sounds like lots of emotion and no hard facts/observations to back it up.

[Cactusjack]

Perhaps the CEO`s and their buddies are willing to also take on a salary of less than 70k per year, to prove that they 'truly and honestly support the concept and structure of Low Cost Carriers' ??

[kiwilad]

So now I hear that Jet* Oz and NZ pilots are flying together are the Jet* Oz guys going to band together to sort it or just enjoy the ride until they are all on the Jet* NZ deal.

About ZQN ops for Jet*, they seem to be taking it quietly, but on two occassions I bet they wished they didn't come off the approach as it was pretty pox and not ideal circling in a jet, but I guess they will put that down to experience.

How long before the NZ based guys on the OZ contract are pushed to the NZ deal? Jet* Oz guys were happy to takeover Qantas work and progress so will be sure they are happy to watch Jet* NZ return the favour. What a company to work for.:ok:

Wonder when the first Jet* NZ guys start there 787 ratings?:D

Just my 2cents

[Cypher]

Well.. at least they seem to be making money...

Jetstar flies into black - Business - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10591918)

Who gives a s#it about safety... it's all about the price....

[Artificial Horizon]

People keep saying things like "who gives a sh#t about safety", once again where is the evidence that Jetstar don't take safety seriously, some of the biggest low cost carriers in the world e.g Easyjet, Southwest, Ryanair have impeccable safety records. Cheap fares doesn't really mean cheap on safety. You may not agree with the terms and conditions on offer but that is no reason to start slanging untruths about.:ouch: 80% load factor accross the board and an operating profit within the first full month of operations speaks for itself, with more and more positive media coverage starting to come Jetstar NZ is well positioned for expansion. Is this good for the pilot community and pay and conditions.... NO its not, but lets not forget the slide towards these wages started years ago when people at the grass roots level (GA) started working for FREE, I had numerous 'job' offers straight out of CPL/IR Instructor rating training with the small condition that I could work for nothing!!! I didn't do it, many people did as I have never heard of a GA operator struggling for pilots! We only have ourselves to blame, we cheapened our 'profession' years ago and Jetstar NZ is now the result of this exploitation of peoples desperation to work which started a long time ago. Ironically Jetstar OZ pilots are now worried about being undercut by the Jetstar NZ contract, where did we all think it would end. Over here in Europe people can buy a type rating with 500 hours on type (737), the airline runs its operation with FO's who are paying to fly:eek: Is this the next step downunder probably, because as a group of professionals we are crap at sticking together.

[Dixons Cider]

Talking to my dear old Mum (who knows bugger all about avaition) back in unzud a few days ago - she very matter of factly happened to mention that the Jetstar drivers are the dregs of aviation and its unsafe to fly with them!!!

Had to pull her up and point out that regardless of where she heard that, its a pretty broad statement to make, and the reality is there are plenty of boys there with good experience.

My point is, this must be the kind of uniformed gossip thats doin the rounds in NZ, and Jetstar themselves are to blame for most of it with there highly publicised start up debacle. That combined with the well known fact that they are paying their pilots poorly only adds to the illusion that its only drivers that cant work elsewhere that are willing to climb into the seat and do the job.

Dunno if my Mums opinion is indicative of the wider feeling back there, but if it is, it should be a worry for Jetstar...

[captncannot]

sfoxs:
Captcant have you ever been to zqn? Commanded a 121 jet in there???

Been there many times. I'm sure the j* boys will be just fine :rolleyes:

[CTOT ON]

Cypher,
If i read the Royal New Zealand Herald article correctly it refers to an Operating Profit. This doesnt include the small costs associated with management structure and capital costs of the aircraft. So the question is, did they really make a profit, or is the Jetstar PR machine still working overtime?

CTOT

[ZK-NSN]

We only have ourselves to blame, we cheapened our 'profession' years ago and Jetstar NZ is now the result of this exploitation of peoples desperation to work which started a long time ago.

Dont know why you are directing this at NZ pilots, I have only ever heard Aussies driving them. Actually come to think of it, I dont know why the f#*k anybody refers to it as Jetstar NZ. The pilots are Aussies, the planes VH registered, CEO is an Aussie, they operate under Aussie rules. Its the airline equivilent to bunnings Warehouse (and dont get me started about those c#@ts)

And on a less important note, what smart b@stard decided to paint the planes grey, makes them bloody hard to sight.

[Artificial Horizon]

I refer to New Zealand Pilots as that is where I am from, that is where I did my training and that is where I was offered numerous 'jobs' after my training for no pay. I had a few friends who were forced to stay on the dole whilst working for apparently reputable firms for next to nothing as instructors, charter pilots etc. A Wellington based airline offered me an incredible deal where I could pay for a rating on thier aircraft and then 'purchase' hours of line flying to build my experience while working for them on night frieght. Jetstar NZ is a NZ company, it pays tax in NZ, pays people in NZD, based in NZ. It only uses an OZ AOC as this is part of the TTMRA, to save airlines from having to go to the expense of duplication. Jetstars pay is by no means the best, but as ever you have the choice to not work for them. Personally I feel that $15,000 signing on bonus, $65,000 per year basic for 65 hours per month and a guaranteed $10,000 bonus at the end of year one is not a bad deal and certainly a wage many would like to achieve. Mix that with short time to command, brand new aircraft and the bonus of living in NZ then I have to say the deal ain't bad. Sure if you join without a typerating the numbers suffer, but hey, don't join! Jetstar pay for uniform, crew meals, hotel accomodation during induction amongst other things unlike MANY low cost carriers in other parts of the world. You have to pay for your own Jepps and medicals but after you have 'claimed' that back from the tax man you are not any worse off.

[Massey058]

Its the airline equivilent to bunnings Warehouse (and dont get me started about those c#@ts)

If there was a vote for quote of the week, that would be my pick! :D