Extremely important ,and seriuos issue here!

[roboto]

Hi fellow ppruners, I basically wish to word my feelings about the aviation industry today as we know it,it sucks!!. After spending a fortune on my training I feel absolutely digusted about the opportunties available, even though it stated throughout aviation related literature,that this decade is apparently the best possible time to be a Pilot. To a certain extent, yes it is (with the right contacts). I have applied to numerous Airlines around the world, and Europe, and been told that I lacked the experience required, but I constantly ask myself, how can one attain experience if you aren't given a chance to gain it, we all have to start somewhere, isn't that common sense. Even "Mr Fatcat" training Captain has been there, only then to knock our confidences back. I have a little under 400hrs, trained at one of the world's finest Aviation Institutions, have a 4 year degree,and alot of work experience, which without "blowing my horn", is more than the average "spotty faced kids" whose parents forked out a couple of pennies for them to do their training straight out of school, and then land a job. Not mentioning any names but I do know of one kid in particular whose Daddy happened to be a Chief Captain on one of the major UK Airlines,he wasn't the brightest, or quickest, but managed to land a job as an F/O on a 146 immediatedly after graduating. I applied to the same company, but was told to go away, build somemore time then call back in a year or two" this can't be an equal opportunites Company. I may sound very militant, but situations such as the one mentioned leave us no hope,yes I could have tried to build more hours by instructing or something, but I don't have a house to re-morgage, or a car to sell. This brings me to the conclusion that Aviation primarily in this country is a very conservative and selfish field to embark into, I only hope the budding Pilots of today investigate employment possibilities before embarking on a course of this nature. My last point concerns the lack of ethnic minorities in UK companies, I haven't seen that many in the majors, or Regional network. I ask this as I am black, and never in my life used the Racial card in any situation. I've always thought that if I didn't get something, perhaps I wasn't as good as I should have been. But with so many turn downs I am begining to feel that it could be, as I am well qualified, have a good personal, and educational back ground, and passed in the top percent of my class whilst in training. What do you think the reasons coulb be, I'd love to hear from everyone out there?

[atlast]

Try the US. I left the UK in 1989 with zero hours knowing I couldn't afford to start an Aviation career in the UK. 8,000 hours later i'm P1 on a 747. Don't lose sight of the dream.
Regards

[redsnail]

So, you believed the aviation literature....I suppose that literature came from the flying schools? I guess you read the aviation mags too? Ever wonder where they get a lot of advertising revenue from?

Welcome to aviation, getting the first job is always hard. Doesn't matter what decade it is or how the employment scene is. It is a bastard and whinging about it will not help you at all. So, look even further. Find out where you may be lacking and fix that. Cant afford to do an instructor rating? Well, how about looking at smaller charter companies and so on. Does your first job have to be on a turbine?
If you really want it, your break will come your way. Remember, you create your own luck.


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reddo...feral animal!

[nugpot]

I agree with Reddo. If they want you to get more experience, go get it. Even if it means dropping meatbombs at your nearest parachute club.

I also have a degree, 1700hrs, ATP, ex military and I am flying a BE58 Baron to stay in the industry, build even more hours and show the airlines that I am prepared to do whatever it takes while I wait for my interviews. (Oh and by the way, this flying takes place in the bush, 2000 km away from my house and my wife whom I see 5 days per month).

Keep at it mate. It'll happen if your attitude is right.

[This message has been edited by nugpot (edited 11 November 2000).]

[InFinRetirement]

I was going to add to this Roboto but then I read Redsnail and Nugpot's posts and you have the best advice right there! No more to be said except that life will be a bitch for quite a while.

Just a thought. Don't sit on your bum waiting for a good job to come to you! You have to be good enough for it and you have to go and get it.

[White Knight]

Yep, stop bitching and get out there, if you try hard enough you'll do it.
I ended up flying in Africa for a long while because there was no work here in UK (1990) and am now back as a capt. on a nice jet.
Good Luck

[wysiwyg]

These training organisations should be shot for the false hopes they build up in their new cadets. How many times on these pages do we see the gradual realisation as people go from gonnabe to neverbe. It is a bitter pill for those who don't succeed.

wizzy

[ehwatezedoing]

Aviation industry may looks unfair when starting, especialy with no contact.
In EU with a frozen atp and 400 hrs some can go strait up f/o on jet. So what !?, I'm happy for them.
But that's NOT the end if it's NOT your case.

-No Jet ? --->Turbine
-No turbine ? --->Multi piston
-No multi piston ? --->Single piston
-No single piston ? ---> dispatcher, ramp rat, F/A or whatever in a company having planes and who can give you a pilot job afterward.
I even know one who packed parachutes in a dropzone for few month before getting a foot in a C-182. 6 or so years later this guy is now f/o on a major carrier.

Not in your country ? ---> Europe (assuming your in EU)
Not in Europe ? ---> brake your wallet for travels, starting in places where you know some people.
No contact at all ? ---> built those contacts by travelling.
Try to know how other in your course (except 146 guy) made it, if they are some.

All this may sound easy to say but most of us did it this way. (the perfect example is Pigboat post on mryia225 threath "Humble beginnings")

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Note: I'm not here to underestimate jobs like F/A, dispatcher, etc....

[This message has been edited by ehwatezedoing (edited 11 November 2000).]

[Flintstone]

Robot,

All I can offer is sympathy plus a little bit of encouragement and advice.

Been there myself but as some of the answers above explain you'll only make your own opportunities.

It's hard, particularly if like most of us you don't have the family connections but you have to stick at it. Have you considered joining the IPA? You could also make new friends through PPRuNe. Coming to the GatBash would be a good idea too (as long as you don't spend the night pestering people). I made more contacts at the last bash than I had in the previous three or four months. Got absolutely blotto and had a great night too!

Just don't give up.

[SAM 2M]

Roboto
PLease try not to get too downhearted. Many pilots in great jobs have have had a really tough time to start with. By definition it is often when you are at your lowest that things come right.

Being human we sometimes compare ourselves with others but however unfair things seem it is to be resisted. The temptation never actually stops. Sometimes I have thought something like - another colleague on the fleet is lucky because he had his/her training paid for or whatever. Then I think don't be silly - whats the problem - you are on the 757/767 flying great routes etc and you have the satisfaction if knowing you achieved it on your own.

It WILL come right.Perhaps you need to look at the way you are applying for jobs. You need to be pretty damn procative.

Take Heart - It will be worth it in the end and it will feel very good I can assure you. Life is unfair - So is Aviation. Probably more so.

Good Luck You'll get there.

SAM 2M :)

[Secret Squirrel]

Hey White Night, you should visit the Questions Forum. There's a post which might interest you!

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Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

[Pihero]

Hey,Roboto !
Most of the guys give good,sensible advice and note ( please ) that not one tried to sugarcoat the bitter pill :You have to keep at it because it's worth it and if you really want it,you'll deserve it.
What I wanted to tell you was race is generally not an issue;attitude is (Yours as much as theirs).It's a question of pride,self-respect,self-assuredness as "I'm gonna be big enough to fill that vacant seat of yours".
Ehwatezedoing has the right attitude.I probably did as I used his plan almost to the full and my ATPL became a passport to see the world,I progressed,advanced to command and one day I came back to my home country,when the jobs were no longer scarce.
A lot of guys did the same thing as I did,with the same result.We are richer with our experience,we are making a childhood dream come true....
My dear friend,you should start by getting rid of this "minority" business of yours.One day,you'll find yourself and your crew -most of them whites- landing some place where they will be the minority...and guess what,they will still be your friends and colleagues...
Wonder why I am saying all this?
That's because I am a brown-skinned mixed bred airline pilot,mister.
Feel free to write.
Rgds

[This message has been edited by Pihero (edited 13 November 2000).]

[Buzzoff]

Roboto, airlines simply cannot afford to practise discrimination. My outfit doesn't give two stuffs what colour, gender, sexual orientation, shoe size or hair tint you are. It cares very much about whether you can do the job or not, nothing else. We, and many other airlines, are multi-racial and multi-national - just keep plugging away.

[insert chocks]

Roboto

Every wondered why the 'average "spotty faced kids"' are getting the jobs and not you? I suppose you paid for your entire university education without any support from your parents. £40000+ is needed if you choose to study medicine, arcitecture or the longer than normal universtiy degrees, however for us 'spotty faced kids' who have borrowed, scraped and worked bloody hard for the required cash to forfill our dreams, we stand to pay back our parents & bank managers over a very short time therefore making the whole process very efficent. Out of 200 who left my school two and half years ago there are only two of us who are earning £30000+. As for experience, I worked as a dispatcher from the age of 17 during weekends which paid for my PPL and did work experience in ATC several times a week for 2 years. As for my first job, it came from persistance. You make your own luck.

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I'd rather be up here than down there!

[This message has been edited by insert chocks (edited 19 November 2000).]

[Jetdriver]

Roboto,

I am always a little amazed at the postings that I see here on PPRuNe that seem to contain much wringing of hands about how hard it is to get a job with an airline with just a few hundred hours.

My advice to you would be to set your sights a little lower. There are always jobs to be found, if you look hard enough. I do appreciate the point that there are always people who land a plum job by virtue of sheer luck or family contacts or the the right handshake or whatever. The vast majority of us just have to work our way up from the apprentice level jobs.

Training schools will always sell a product, and make it look an attractive proposition. That is the way of the world. All advertising is designed to yield profit. If they were required to tell the whole truth then the whole advertising industry would be in really big trouble !

I am afraid that the stark reality of your situation is that most Airlines will not be very interested in a 400 hour pilot. However as you build flight time and experience ( perhaps in other spheres of commercial aviation such as instructing, air taxi, etc) that situation will gradually change.

Your ethnic background, your flight training, your education, and your experience do not make you unique. What does make you unique is your character and your personality. When you have built up the experience ( flight hours, Licences, Jobs, adventures, setbacks, and achievements)then you will have something to sell the Airlines that they will be interested in.

Print off a copy of this thread and read it again when you have 4000 hours, and I think you will appreciate the point.

Good luck.

[SAM 2M]

Roboto

Good advice from Jetdriver.

In my own case I hoped to fly a jet after getting my licence but did not get to fly a jet until I had 4200 hours & almost 6 years of flying props.

It was still well worth the wait!

The experience gained on a/c such a turboprops is very valuable. Having spent a few years picking up ice and learning to deal with the hazard it was suprising to see just how much less the jets suffer from this.
The trouble can be that pilots who go directly on to a jet can skip some good learning points re hazards that a high performance jet largely protects you from. One day thay might wish that they had had a little more exposure in the early formative commercial flying years to factors such as icing and heavy crosswinds etc during the multiple-type (4-6) sector days that you do on turboprop type operations.

Good luck Roboto. Hope your wait is not too long. Remember all flying experience is valuable so when it comes -whatever the level-enjoy it. Before you know it I am sure that you will realise your dream. :)

[piperindians]

You are right about aviation industry.
Also the situation is bad at the moment in Europe. Several European companies are in serious financial difficulties. The current high oil prices are the main culprit. Even instructing is not obvious in Europe at the moment for various reasons.
JAR is a also a total mess.
As for racial prejudice, i will admit it exists because i know some cases. In the US it could play in your favour. However in Europe there is not such a thing. Some Armerican consulting companies will however hire blacks but they wont find any place to put them because no client wants them.
The US market is better. The problem in the US is to obtain a green card. Dont have false hopes. For instructing you only need J1, thats not a problem and finding an instructor job is also not a problem in the US. So instruction in the US is definitely an option.
I would like to add that some reputable magazines like FIM or organisations like AOPA run articles about a so-called pilot shortage. This is a scam and i dont know how such organisations may get involved into this.
Obviously turboprops or even multi piston are excellent experience, but it is quite hard to get in Europe since there are not so much low-time jobs in that kind of aircraft.
Also, to tell that 500 hrs are not much is a bit ridiculous since allied airmen flew combat missions on high-perf piston fighters on that time in WWII.

[Deaf]

In WWII 500 hours meant you had finished (one way or another) a tour on heavy bombers

regards

jc

[ehwatezedoing]

hmmmm, you can also land a jet fighter on a carrier deck at night with less than 300hrs....All depends on your background training (& experiences). :)

Roboto, to put it simple, instead of looking upward to your gigantic "one step only ladder"
--->Look down our "multiple step options ladder"....And carry on.

[This message has been edited by ehwatezedoing (edited 22 November 2000).]

[Paterbrat]

Hi Roboto,

Well you certainly don't sound happy. On the other hand you have obviously progressed to a certain point in an aviation career. My father was I am and my son is. We all did it by different routes and in each case I would say that a degree of grunt work was done ie crap jobs in pisspoor locations flying junky old aircraft. We all managed to progress to the airlines and fly nice modern aircraft. I have learned that being in the right place at the right time is a definite rule that applies and you cannot swot for that one. I hate to say but luck does play a part, along with persistance diligence and the right attitude. I'd definitely drop the colour idea that's a non starter and in your case a bad card to even hint at playing. Take your lumps, everybody gets them, keep at it. It really is a great profession and the law of averages generaly means that everybody gets a break at some stage, some later than others. And yes lots of people do start by instructing and towing banners flying mail oilfield support, charter, exec and funnily enough it can be pretty rewarding in it's own sweaty way. Been there seen it and enjoyed it

[The Weasel]

I had a dream of becoming a pilot, once...then I became insulin dependant diabetic. That stops you dead in your tracks. Just have to stick with the R/C models I suppose, or perhaps paragliding if the desire is to be IN the aircraft you fly! Best wishes to all of you hoping to become pilots and stay away from the sweets.