Incident at Swansea airport....

[timmcat]

Details sketchy at present...

BBC link...

BBC NEWS | Wales | Helicopter 'crashes at airport' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7970947.stm)

[JagRigger]

R44 owned by a Swansea car dealer according to G Info - hope he's OK :uhoh:

[rowenc]

Have they released the names of the POB yet?

[flyer43]

Interesting statement in the press report.
A spokeswoman for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch said: "We are investigating the crash but we are not sending any investigators. "The investigation will be done from the paper report by the pilot."

Sounds like the pilot knows exactly what caused the crash. It's refreshing to know that somebody is prepared to be honest to save expensive costs of investigating something - at least I hope that's what this means!

[Chopper Doc]

I don't think the AIB send any investigators unless someone has actually died. Certainly that is the way it appears from the AIB reports I have read. If the pilot survives they write up the report and that is it as far as the AIB are concerned unless there is some indication that there was something wrong with the aircraft.

[korrol]

The crash happened yesterday at Fairwood Airport, Swansea. The Western Mail reports the two people in the helicopter were taken to Morriston Hospital where the male passenger – believed to be the owner of the aircraft – received treatment for serious head injuries.The pilot suffered minor head injuries.
The paper says "Mid and West Wales Fire Service said the privately-owned Robinson R44 crashed near the helipad as it descended to land at about 2.15pm. The main rotor was said to have struck the ground and broken off before the aircraft rolled onto its side. No other aircraft was involved.

The Western Mail; quotes a spokeperson for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch saying : “We are investigating the crash but we are not sending any investigators there The investigation will be done from the paper report by the pilot.”
Is that standard procedure these days?

[helicopter-redeye]

The aircraft registration is visible in the picture.

In a prohephic entry to G-INFO in 2002, a previous owner has recorded this ...



Issue Date: 18/07/2000
End Date: 27/05/2002

Notes: Destroyed


How is an aircraft destroyed then reborn?

[Twiddle]

Triggers broom......


obviously the serial number survived!

(For non UK readers, it's a reference to a TV series called "Only fools and horses" if you haven't seen it then you should...)

[Tailboom]

I think the helicopter was damaged before at some time in its life, it was then sent back to Robinson to be repaired and possibly zero timed.

On a more worrying point I believe the pilot and passenger had their clothes removed by the police for forensic investigation before they were airlifted to hospital can you believe !!! and the pilot was not allowed to retrieve his telephone or car keys from the damaged machine as the police deemed the crash a "crime scene" he might get them back tomorrow. I was also told that the police wanted to take him to the station for a statement before he went to the hospital!

I think the airport has just reopened this afternoon after nearly 2 days because of the "crime scene"

I dont know about you but since when did having an innocent accident while taking off become a crime !!!!!!

[jeepys]

If he was a car dealer then he probably would be a criminal

[nigelh]

criminally insane to fly a robbo ??

[heli-cal]

Clothing retention may be for GSR or narcotic trace purposes.

[Lord Mount]

Tailboom,

From the police point of view, if the incident is deemed to be 'life threatening' or 'life changing' they are bound to treat the scene of the incident as a possible crime scene until it it proved to be otherwise.

That means the scene would have to be forensically examined and evidentially photographed and exhibits taken.

Obviously at the time the serious head injuries were deemed to be possibly life changing and therefore their hands were tied.

I hope that explains things a bit.

LM

[TOT]

HI

for my misfortune, I have witnessed 3 Robinson heli accidents at airfields in the UK.

In each case there was some degree of personal injury.

In each case the airfield re opened within with an hour or two

In each case no police were called.

Could some one exlplain exactly why the police are involved at Swansea?

were they called by over entheusiastic ATC?

Did they(police) over step their authority?

The most seriously injured pasenger was left lying (BY THE POLICE) on wet grass, in Forensic type clothing, with obvious very serious head injuries!!!
UNTIL SUCH TIME AS AN ONLOOKER COVERED HIM UP!!!

Why was the airport not reopened for 3 full days??

An explanation from ATC and PLOD would be welcome

[Lord Mount]

Tot,

Please see my earlier post as part explanation.

LM

[darrenphughes]

So the cops job is not to be worrying about people with possible life threatening injuries but to secure the scene in order to secure a conviction. Some common sense needs to be taught here. But you can't teach the unteachable!:ugh:

[groundbum]

perhaps the police did first aid whilst waiting for an ambulence and took a load of clothes off to look for injuries etc. Then whilst still waiting for an ambulance and the patient getting cold they decided the easiest way to get some clothes on him again was to use a forensic suit they had in the back of the car, whilst still waiting for the ambulence! How long was it between accident and ambulence attending? The medics would want them in the ambulence PDQ hooked up to machines etc and ready to roll.

Still, can always complain to the IPCC

G

[metalman]

This is my advice,
if you dont want to bleed to death, The compress that was eventually applied to the patients head wounds was someones tshirt!!!!!no-one had a compress!!!!!!or suffer hypertheria,(whilst being surrounded by paramedics,)they took the patients shirt off and left him uncovered for at least ten miutes,or be asked to accompany a police officer (to a nice warm room)at the police station to make a statement, ten minutes after stepping out of the carnage, or answer an order to remove your clothes for bagging for forensic examination, this again happend ten minutes after the incident and whilst being severely traumatized, or have your phone and your car keys confiscated,for three days,being taken to hospital with two police officers shadowing your every move, and i mean shadowing!!!breathalised, whilst still in very severe shock, and then being told this was not a legal requirement.
being told the area was now considered a serious crime scene.
THEN PLEASE DO NOT COME TO EGFH!!!!!!!!

[Torquetalk]

Police reaction a likely a consequence of the recent gyro incident: -

Following that incident, chief constables look at aviation accidents anew and consider themselves obliged to protect the possible crime scene & gather evidence.

Do they...

a) Have an officer on-the-scene make a case-by-case assessment of whether the accident might involve a crime and act accordingly?

b) Play safe and treat each incident as a potential crime?

The UK has been having a love affair with health and safety legislation and the Data Protection Act, or rather, a misapplication of both. And has also had a lobotomy where common sense is concerned. Don't hold out much hope for a)


LM

a child falling out of a tree could be 'life threatening' or 'life changing', tripping over a kerb too; there has to be a little more to the guidelines than that or everything would be a potential crime.

[R44-pilot]

Heli-cal,

Why would the Police be looking for GSR???? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I personally think its way out of the Police's authority to be doing this if half of the above is true.

Where were the fire brigade as there?
Theres no mention of them....

And if they have found nothing and were stripping injured pilot and passenger 10 mintutes after a damn helicopter crash they are and should be in a lot of trouble! Where was there evidence or source to support doing such a thing?

And 3 days? I've seen airfields open faster with fatalities!

[Lord Mount]

Torquetalk,

You are exactly correct.

I speak as both a police officer and a helicopter pilot.

A kid falling out of a tree ar someone tripping over a kerb, if considered life changing or life threatening would be treated as a possible crime scene until proved otherwise.

It is a mad situation that has been brought about by people running scared from Health and Safety legislation.

It is all an @rse covering excercise. No-one has the minerals any more to make the decision 'this was an accident' just in case they get it wrong and get sued. They err on the side of caution to protect their jobs, which is somewhat understandable.

Common sense should prevail but these rules have been brought in that bypass that route.

As far as the treatment of the casualty is concerned the police would have used their first aid training (minimal at best) until ambulance or paramedic assistance arrived. First aid training dictates that if the casualty is out of immediate further danger but has a head/neck injury he should not be moved. Obviously I cannot comment on the reasons behind why his clothes were removed at the scene ( I think I would have travelled with the casualty to hospital to retain the chain of evidence and siezed the clothing there), but I'm sure the options would have been discussed.

It aint the same job I joined 27 years ago, thats for sure. Lots of things have improved. Some backward strides have been taken.

Still I retire soon. Bring it on!

[Bronx]

Lord Mount I think I would have travelled with the casualty to hospital to retain the chain of evidence and siezed the clothing there

That's better than removing them at the scene, but why should a casualty's clothing be seized?

I can understand securing the accident scene including preventing the helicopter from being moved until the accident investigators decide if they want to carry out a site inspection, but seizing the pilot's clothing? :eek:

Did the pilots of the BA 777 that did a deadstick landing at Heathrow have their clothing seized?

Do cops in England seize clothing from drivers and other people injured in accidents on the highway?

[Pandalet]

Did the pilots of the BA 777 that did a deadstick landing at Heathrow have their clothing seized?

I do know the passengers who were evacuated from that aircraft were not given access to their luggage, which obviously they'd left behind when they exited. They were basically dumped in the terminal and told to go home. Without any cash, driving licenses, keys, etc. It was only when people started making a fuss that the airline actually organised taxis etc. I'm not sure how long it took for people to get their stuff back (or whether they actually got it back at all).

Just goes to show, the police don't have a monopoly on an abject lack of common sense (whether forced into it or not).

[cockney steve]

It seems like the time for the revolution draws nigh :ooh:

When cretinous Jobsworths abrogate their moral responsibilities as members of the human race, it's time to call a halt.

The "retention of clothes" issue is Bolleaux....Any trace of narcotics could likely appeared for a number of reasons, witness a recent high profile quashed conviction where it was proven that traces of burnt gunpowder residue were likely deposited by sloppy investigative procedures.

I'd submit that anything likely to have affected the ability of the crew/pax to make controlled flight, (other than a fxxxup) lays in their bloodstream.

To allow "procedure" to overrule the duty of care to get the quickest possible medical attention to a head-injury victim, shows arrogance or stupidity of the highest order.

I hope plod involved is given a real carpeting and if these actions were as a result of "orders from above",- then "above "needs his ass suing followed by sacking...he's clearly in charge of a self-serving meritocracy.....I assume the police is still a SERVICE to the general public and employed at the public expense to protect them.

FAILURE....No wonder there is a general lack of respect for persons on the gravy-train formerly known as public service or Civil Service.

[HeliCraig]

Couldn't agree more cockney steve.

As they say, respect is earnt. Plod have unfortunately done little to earn mine; in fact it is worse than that. I was brought up with proper respect for the police (I wouldn't want to do aspects of their job!), but they have destroyed it by their own actions, and often their own inaction.

They just don't seem to have the common sense they used to!

C

[Lord Mount]

The "retention of clothes" issue is Bolleaux....Any trace of narcotics could likely appeared for a number of reasons, witness a recent high profile quashed conviction where it was proven that traces of burnt gunpowder residue were likely deposited by sloppy investigative procedures.

I have no information on why the decision was made to retain the clothes. Any assumption by yourself that it was to ascertain the presence of narcotics is pure conjecture and has no basis in fact.


I'd submit that anything likely to have affected the ability of the crew/pax to make controlled flight, (other than a fxxxup) lays in their bloodstream.



It would be normal practice to request pre transfusion blood sample at hospital.

To allow "procedure" to overrule the duty of care to get the quickest possible medical attention to a head-injury victim, shows arrogance or stupidity of the highest order.


There is absolutely no evidence that the quickest medical attention was in any way delayed and I find this comment particularly inflamatory and sensationlisational.


No wonder there is a general lack of respect for persons on the gravy-train formerly known as public service or Civil Service.



Come and do my job for a week. You will quickly find out it ain't no gravy train.

We are not privy to the full facts of the investigation and as such comments such as these, made from a position of ignorance, do nothing towards finding out how this happened and how it may be prevented in the future. That is, after all why the investigation is taking place.

Regards

LM

[heli-cal]

GSR??
Heli-cal,

Why would the Police be looking for GSR????

What I actually said is: "Clothing retention may be for GSR or narcotic trace purposes."

These are two reasons for which the retention of clothing may be required, self explanatory really!

I was not an Officer in attendance, consequently, I have no factual knowledge as to what formed the decision to retain clothing, if indeed clothing was retained.

It would appear that the accident site was treated as a crime scene, which, with the alleged retention of clothing, may lead to a reasonable conclusion that there was evidence gathering for the purpose of further examination.

Such examination may be for the purposes which I originally stated.

Is this clear enough for you?

[R44-pilot]

exactly, you said "Clothing retention may be for GSR or narcotic trace purposes."
So with that statement your saying I was wrong in thinking you were suggesting the Police would of retained the clothes to check for traces of GSR?

Why would they be looking for gun shot residue in a helicopter crash?? Its not exactly standard practise in the UK to check everything the Police investigate for GSR, particually a civillian helicopter crash.

I agree there are many reasons why clothes would be taken but you said for narcotics or GSR........ yeah fair enough, check for trace of narcotics but why you said GSR baffles me.

you said:
"Such examination may be for the purposes which I originally stated".
So you still think they were retained for them to check for trace evidence of GSR?

"Is this clear enough for you?" Dont try and patronize me you came out with the strange statement.....:ugh:

[HeliCraig]

Having a slow day, what's GSR?

[R44-pilot]

As above mate, GSR = Gun Shot Residue

If a firearm is discharded, tiny amounts of burnt gunpowder will surround a small area, particually the arm and chest of the person firing.
Lab test etc can pick these up.

Hope this helps.

[chester2005]

as heli-cal said
""What I actually said is: "Clothing retention may be for GSR or narcotic trace purposes."

These are two reasons for which the retention of clothing may be required, self explanatory really!

I was not an Officer in attendance, consequently, I have no factual knowledge as to what formed the decision to retain clothing, if indeed clothing was retained.""

Therefore it is only conjecture and speculation but it is self explanatory

Chester:ok:

[Stan Switek]

I have to admit it is entertaining watching those with no formal police training, minimal knowledge of the law or experience in police procedures throw out wild ass guesses as to why certain things were or were not done done.

[heli-cal]

R44-pilot,

Which part of "may" remains unclear to you?

Perhaps you should take a http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/sign0197.gif and have a nice http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/sign0196.gif followed by some http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/tired-sleeping-smiley-17403.gif as you appear to be getting somewhat excited!

[R44-pilot]

Ok Heli-cal,

I'm not going to get into childish anticts and debates with you as your clearly quite immature.

I may like most on here have minimal knowledge on certain aspects of the law and police procedures, more than some though maybe.
I do however have a fair amount of knowldege on firearms and ballistics and am quite clued up on laws regarding/using/possesion and procedures with firearms in the UK, which with the GSR comment pricked my ears up.

The fact of the matter is, all I was saying is that there would be no reason for any police authority to confiscate clothes off someone in a civil aviation crash for the examination of gun shot residue unless someone had been shot...... how is that unclear and how can that of been read any other way??

You keep watching CSI Heli-cal :D:ok:

[deltayankee]

Err.. something not quite right here. Helicopter accidents are not everyday occurances and I can't recall any involving firearms. If the authorities suspect firearms were involved why does the AAIB calmly comment:


"The investigation will be done from the paper report by the pilot."


Which seems to imply that it is a very simple matter of hardware failure or human error and not something so dramatic.

[jumpseater]

Why would they be looking for gun shot residue in a helicopter crash??

Pure uninformed speculation on my part, but perhaps they found a 'G' or were looking for one/expected to find one. The AAIB may have determined from evidence that there was a 'simple' explanation to the accident so PIREP on accident, and therefore unconnected to any investigation the rozzers may be doing.

[heli-cal]

You keep watching CSI Heli-cal

Having chosen not to own or watch television for almost two decades, that would be difficult!http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/happy0009.gif

[topcat28]

Quote: Stan Switek

I have to admit it is entertaining watching those with no formal police training, minimal knowledge of the law or experience in police procedures throw out wild ass guesses as to why certain things were or were not done done.

I have to admit that I consider myself to be one of those "with no formal police training". However, I have spent the last ten years working with certain elements of the Police, the Military and the Security Service(s). And I have to say, I am more entertained watching the comments from some of those that purport to have had some of the said "training".

[fluffy5]

There seems to be more to this, for the police to react like this.
Yet in all innocents, I do believe the law changed many years ago now, that a police officer has the right, to do a breath test and detain a pilot on airfield.

fluffy

[deltayankee]

No doubt the discussion about police training is very interesting, but does anybody have any gossip or speculation about why the rotor hit the ground?

[Heliringer]

Jeeeesus, is this a Pilot site or a Police one? Don't get me wrong the cops do a good job but best to leave the pilot stuff to pilots and the police stuff to.... well you blokes who joined the Police and the AIRCRAFT (not criminal investigations) to the fellas who do that sort of stuff.:ok:

[Mr D's]

During incidents where people are seriously injured or may have serious injuries, it is normal practice for paramedics to cut clothing from patients in order to examine them without causing further injuries. The clothing is usually discarded by the paramedics and because it is property belonging to someone then it will be recovered by the police for safe keeping, usually to be either returned or dispossed off with the owners permission.

The report on the BBC website leads me to believe that the Police officers that attended the scene were able to communicate with the pilot and get a good idea of the cause of the incident which would then have been passed onto AAIB who made the decision to await a paper report from the pilot.

The 1st role of a Police officer is the protection of Life, all officers receive first aid training, and that would have been their primary concern.

There are two sides to every story and it is easy for someone who doesn't understand what they are seeing (or what they have been told) to interpret it differently to those that understand what is occuring.

I see alot of postings on this forum criticizing the Press for using rhumors on this site and jumping to conclusions etc, however that appears to be exactly what forum members are doing on this thread.

Hoepfully this will help some of those slating the Police understand their role better, there does seem to be a heavy dose of CSI imagination in some of the postings.

As far as the cause of the crash, you'll be able to read all about it in the AAIB report.

keep safe.

[Lord Mount]

Good post Mr D.

LM

[ShyTorque]

... but does anybody have any gossip or speculation about why the rotor hit the ground?

Not sure about the main rotor hitting the ground but the photo shows no sign of a tail rotor. Perhaps it was simply an over-enthusiastic flare near the ground.

[Pappa Smurf]

Where had the chopper come from?
Cops may have had a report of someone firing a gun from a chopper ,or it had been suspected of doing an english channel pickup of drugs from a boat.Time will tell

[Mr D's]

Pappa Smurf You're not a screen writer for CSI are you????

[Helinut]

It is SOP for paramedics (in heles or otherwise) at serious injury incidents to cut the clothing off patients. This is done to make sure that no injuries are missed. Because the clothes still belong to someone, the police normally take them from scene.

In those cases, the clothing is not "seized" by the police, but retained to allow them to be returned to the rightful owner idc. Usually, the clothing has no value, but small items such as mobiles are often left in them, and are requested at a later date.

At occurrences with aircraft the police have a dual responsibility with the AAIB (and the CAA a little bit). Whether for their own purposes or that of others preservatipn of evidence is key. The AAIB issues emergency services with standing instructions to help them preserve the scene. Like anyone having to respond on scene, the PCs would need to second guess what the subsequent investigators might want to do.

I detect the possibility of some conspiracy theorists over-emphasising he dark side, when we may simply have a minor cock-up at worst.

[Tailboom]

The helicopter had come from the hanger!!!!!!! it was pushed from the hanger a few minutes before the accident,it was pre flight checked then attempted to take off It was not coming in to land. This was obviously an accident on take off!!

Surely the police would or could have been told that by ATC.!!!!!

[metalman]

Thats exactly where it came from, the hangar. twenty minutes was spent carrying out the preflight checks. This was a total and absolute overrection by the police who were being fired up by the air ground operator :\referring to the site as a "crime scene."This situation has occured before when a pilot walked into the propellor of a stationary aircraft and had a slight cut to his head.:ugh:This was also called a crime scene!!!!!!
You could'nt write a better script!!!!!!