How would you deal with this?

[Peter Fanelli]

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[Monopole]

I would not of done it in the first place.

If I have to swing a prop, kick start a motorbike or push start a car, I will just walk away...... It's too much like hard work :}

[Whiskery]

Brakes Parked.
Wheels Chocked.
Tie down ropes attached to both wings.
Swing prop down and away from body.

Pretty simple really. And for Monopole try "just walking away" when you are stuck out in the bush with a flat battery, thousands of miles away from civilisation. ;)

[Lodown]

Step 1 - Know what you are doing and know what can go wrong.

Step 2 - If possible, have someone at the cockpit who knows what they are doing to retard the throttle, step on the brakes and kill the engine if necessary. (I know the feeling Whiskery.)

[XRNZAF]

That dude hardly looks like he's "stuck out in the bush". Especially given the poor pax was supposed to be enjoying her first flight in a light aircraft, I'm sure a delay to put the battery on charge or perhaps swap it wouldn't have hurt.

To me, that prop swinging caper really needs to be a two person (pilots/engineers whatever) and ZERO PAX sort of a job... :ok:

I doubt they did a follow up story, but I'm guessing she dumped him and hasn't flown since?:}

[hoss]

how would i deal with this? bloody good question, let me think about it.

years ago i did about 6000hr in pistons mostly in remote areas. thought about it for a second once, in YSBK of all places but my wits got me in the end. stuff that, too many unhappy endings.

charter company procedures was something to the effect of 'forget about it, leave it for the black and white movies'.

[Desert Flower]

If I have to swing a prop, kick start a motorbike or push start a car, I will just walk away...... It's too much like hard work

Never flown an Auster then Monopole? ;)

DF.

[Tarq57]

If the thread question is pre-supposing you are already in the situation, before being flung off the strut, easy. Remove feet from ground. Support entire body from strut, and work inboard toward the fuselage. Invoke superpowers. Poo a little bit. Carefully put one foot on the step, invoke more superpowers, find a handhold, and in one smooth movement open the door against the propwash while moving body against the centripetal force in to the cabin-deftly and with dignity moving over the lady pax in a fluid motion - release the park brake when the a/c is pointing the correct way, open her up, get airborne, claim it's all pretty normal and nothing to be scared of, stop pooing, close door. :E

[Mr_Pilot]

I hand swing one aircraft I fly as a matter of course (DH82) and have the utmost respect for this film. I have not yet come across a bad start and *always* start with the trottle at full idle and have a hand positioned to pull myself back over the wing in the "worst case senario" that somethign should go wrong. I am in easy access of the mags and thottle too. Hand swinging a prop that is at body height and not designed to have that happen is ludicrious. I shudder to think that people still try and do this today.

In this case there are many factors that mounted up on the poor guy trying to get his end away, maybe if there was a little more blood flow to his brain he would have realised his short comings. I never fly to impress anyone, and think that people who do should speak to the amount of "old timers" I have in their accounts, of this guy was "just flying over his newly wed wife etc". :ugh:

I remember a good quote that someone else posted here some time ago. The regulations we fly by, whilst not always being as clear and straightforwards as we would like, are written in the blood of those that have gone before us, proceed with caution.

:ok:


on second thoughts, I change my mind to Tark57's response.... all those years of training for the russian ballet I knew were going to come in handy someday! ;)

[Capn Bloggs]

Call the firies. Get them to run into the prop, and if aircraft catches fire, foam it.

Bit like falling out of your dinghy with the outboard going flat strap...on full lock. Very difficult to rectify without getting yourself run over as it comes around again, and again, and again... :eek:

[rodmiller]

holy sh*t******!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wombat35]

Interesting...

I hand start all the time with 1 particular aircraft I fly (no starter)... no big deal if you brief correctly and don't change what you do if you have a second person.. ie. I always start with chocks in even if someone is in the cockpit and take the engine panel off and inspect the Throttle linkage just to be sure something has not vibrated off and disconnected....

To answer the question of what would I do.... lie flat and if you can roll away from the aircraft.

[Keg]

Someone got a piccie of the Uni SA aircraft that got shredded by a runaway aircraft at Parafield a few years back? I seem to recall it was a 'hand job' as well! :ok: :E

Never mind, just found it.

http://attachments.techguy.org/attachments/7774d1030688396/prop2.jpg



http://attachments.techguy.org/attachments/7773d1030688301/prop1.jpg

[Lodown]

There's nothing wrong with hand swinging a prop, but it just isn't done very much anymore and very, very few people are taught how to do it properly. DC-3's have been hand-started on occasions with a rope and a row of PNG 'volunteers'. Most aerodromes have other options available. There are precautions to take and if they aren't followed, either don't do it or expect the consequences.

[chimbu warrior]

As lodown says, there is nothing wrong with hand-swinging provided it is done properly. This means by someone with appropriate training in hand-swinging.

I used to fly an aircraft that required hand-swinging (no electrical system) but also had no brakes. In addition to the cautions outlined above (chocks, tail tied etc), I would prime the engine and then switch the fuel off. That way, after it started I had time to get around to the cockpit and control things, and, if all was well and it was puttering away at idle, I could select the fuel on before it stopped. Alternatively, if something went wrong, I knew it would not run for very long before the fuel in the lines ran out.

I successfully did several cross countries alone, and started this way without incident.

[psycho joe]

How would you deal with this?

With the same level of professionalism and decorum that I'd handle an airline accident that was obviously my fault.

I'd slip off the epaulettes and saunter away from the aircraft whistling a merry tune till I got to the car park. Drive the shortest route to another state (Preferably out west somewhere), burn the car, change my name and spend the rest of my days working as an itinerant hippy fruit picker under the alias John Smith.

[Brian Abraham]

Is a film about of the exact same thing happening at a Mangalore airshow. If I recall a barricade brought proceedings to a halt. Not to forget the renegade pilotless Auster over Sydney that managed to out manoeuver the RAAF Meteors but was brought to a watery end by a Navy Sea Fury.

[Mr. Hat]

Or this one... back before the boom that was!!:{


Runaway plane creates havoc at Darwin airport. 16/7/2002. ABC News Online (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200207/s608457.htm)




Tuesday, July 16, 2002. Posted: 14:21:07 (AEDT)
Runaway plane creates havoc at Darwin airport

Four aircraft have been damaged - three of them seriously - after a collision at the Darwin airport this morning.

A pilotless Cessna hit three other planes before coming to a stop.

The owner of two of the damaged aircraft, John Hardy, said the pilot was outside cranking the propeller or handstarting the aeroplane when it began to move.

Mr Hardy said the Cessna careered across the tarmac before crashing into two of his aircraft.

"He wasn't in the aeroplane but his three children were, which is pretty frightening and the aircraft engine sprung in to life and developed enough power to tear off down the taxiway," he said.

Mr Hardy said the aircraft came very close to becoming airborne.

"I think one wheel was off the ground and it was accelerating very quickly," he said.

[mendi63]

DC-3's have been hand-started on occasions with a rope and a row of PNG 'volunteers'

We had a gentleman who had heard about this method and decided to try it out on his BN-2 at Daru. He took the spinner off and wrapped the rope around the dome. When the volunteers had pulled on the rope the dome wound up on the ground in a pool of oil. Instead of having to send him an engineer and a starter motor he needed a prop as well!

[Lodown]

Geez! There's no leverage at the dome. The prop doesn't have to turn far or fast at all. In the right spot, a movement of just a few centimetres on the prop, as slow or as fast as you like, will get the engine running. The little clockspring (can't remember the name at present) in the mag does all the work and develops the spark at just the right time. Prepared well and one spark is all it needs. Some pilots think they have to take the place of the starter motor. Try and put a lot of force into it and you run the risk of losing your balance.

[HarleyD]

1. Not all aircraft can be hand started. no impulse coupling = no hand swing, not all aircraft have impulse magneto(s). shower of sparks type is problematic as are 3 and 4 blade props.

2. Chocking and tail tying is very important. i spent years hand swinging and never had issues, but, that was because i was prepared and it was a matter of course. the 'emergency' start is always the tricky one. The holes in the swiss cheese are more likely to line up when, pressure, time, lack of resources/assistance, remote place, lack of familiarity, no communications etc are all piled onto each other. stop and think very carefully, theer is usually a way out of the situation, even if there is some (usually deserved) arse kicking done later on. it is better than dealing witha situation like the one in that very scary movie.

3. On a busy field like shown there is always someone to help, therefore no need to go it alone.

4. I often leave the beacon (if fitted) turned on all the time, that will likely ensure that the master is off and the battery available the following day, as it is harder to walk away from a plane with a blinking beacon woithout noticing. leaving master/mags on is a dread fear I have, I will double check if unsure.

5. You cannot legislate or educate for common sense. The Mangalore 'accident' was the result of someone doing something that was not only a poor display of airmanship, was done without extra assistance (although there were plenty of appropriate people around) and worst of all was done against the direct, explicit and emphatically repeated instructions of the Air display supervisor at the pre show briefing. how does any advice or education work in those circumstances?

Take care, it does happen from time to time that hand swinging is an appropriate solution, but needs to be done properly, with the assistance of people who know what they are doing. It really is a case that failing to prepare will prepare you to fail, and it might have fairly major consequences, for you, the insurance company and others.

HD

[Mach E Avelli]

Psycho Joe's answer is nearest to correct. Correct answer involves a bucket, a towel and a very sharp knife.

[Mr. Hat]

Here is the Darwin hand swing thread: http://www.pprune.org/dunnunda-godzone/59919-2-aircraft-collide-darwin.html

[Pinky the pilot]

I hand started an engine on a BN2 many moons ago and described the incident in another thread some time back.

The procedure I used was demonstrated to me by the Douglas Airways CP when I started with them and was quite simple;

Set Brakes on.

Prime Engine normally.

Throttle Fully closed.

Both Mags and master switch ON

Swing away, ensuring that you have good firm groung beneath your feet and weight is always on the back foot, stepping back as you swing.

Took me about twenty-odd swings but it eventually fired up. :ok:

I was'nt going to stop trying anyway. It was BBQ night at the Club Dero and I was the other side of the Owen Stanleys!:eek:

[gas-chamber]

Hand swinging was once part of the curriculum. It went naturally with the old Gypsy Majors, Continental C85's and impulse magnetoes etc. Then technology came along and stuffed it all up for the worse, so the art was lost.

[Mach E Avelli]

In my misspent yoof I flew Herons with the original Gypsy Queen engines. For such a lump of metal they were piss-easy to hand swing which was just as well because starters did fail and batteries did go flat. The main thing was to pick the one with the broken starter and do it first, then get on board and fire up the other three. Very dangerouse to do it the other way round! And to make it even more interesting, we flew those Herons on domestic ops as single pilot and the problem always happened on some remote island, never at main base. Pommy engineering at its best.
The other (and preferred) method, assuming the battery was not the problem, was to fire up the three good ones and take off with no passengers, do a windmill start on the dud, then come back and board the pax with the affected engine running. These days, if we pulled a stunt like that CASA would have babies. Life was much less stressful before they invented the nanny-state and litigation.

[tail wheel]

And the most famous Australian runaway aircraft of all: Runaway Auster (http://www.australianstorytelling.org.au/txt/runaway.php)

:}

[Bush Boss]

I leant to hand start on an Auster (no starter) so it was 'normal' for me at the time. Brake on, chocks in place & just crack the throttle off idle. We didnt tie the tail down although sounds like a good idea.
I have rope started a BN2 a couple of times in PNG. I carried a rope just for the occasion(better than spending a night in the bush). I just wrapped the rope around the spinner and used a few 'volunteers' to pull. One of our pilots got it wrong once though, the rope got caught up and the knotted end of the rope punched a hole through the skin on the underside of his plane. So it is important that the volunteers dont wrap the rope around their wrists to get a better grip or they might end up getting a much closer look at the prop than they were anticipating!
Have also hand started BN2's, much easier with a rope though. Hand started a C206 in PNG once, I had a sod of a job getting it started by myself.
Foot placement is also very important when hand starting, so if you slip, you fall back not forward.

[Peter Fanelli]

1. Not all aircraft can be hand started. no impulse coupling = no hand swing, not all aircraft have impulse magneto(s). shower of sparks type is problematic as are 3 and 4 blade props.


Not true, the famous VH-ACZ was started by hand on at least one occasion by a co-worker of mine when it had a starter failure on the worlds longest mail run. It had Shower of sparks mags.

I think I'd be physically disconnecting the starter just to be sure if I had to do it.

Oh and he started it without having someone hold the switch.

Will it be difficult?
Sure will but he got lucky I guess.

[PlankBlender]

Keg, incredible pictures. :eek: Just hope there was no-one in there. :ouch:

[Desert Flower]

Not true, the famous VH-ACZ was started by hand on at least one occasion by a co-worker of mine when it had a starter failure on the worlds longest mail run.

On more than one occasion PF, & difficult wasn't one of the words used during the attempts! Sure do miss that old girl though.

DF.

[Peter Fanelli]

Yeah DF it sure would have been an interesting sight to watch and hear :)

Glad it wasn't my turn. :ooh:

[Johnny_56]

Tarq57... excellent!!! Stoopid passenger, this is the way we always start the plane, apart from the poop obviously

[M14_P]

Yep guys like Mr Pilot have no choice in the matter, this is how one went flying!
If it is taught properly and safely you can't go wrong. Mr Pilot, do you swing from in front or behind? I was taught this technique of holding onto the corbane strut with my right hand, chocks in place, and use left hand to swing propellor (from behind disk). Then within a second can reach to adjust throttle to idle rpm. Have seen many do it from the front, always interesting to see the different approaches used. :)

[boardpig]

We got stuck up at Fitzroy Crossing, pooped starter motor, had to hand swing to get to Broome. I stayed in the cockpit, taught the passenger how to hand swing (and get out the way also). Live mags on the swing, brakes etc on, got it started and off we went. No problem if thought about and done right.

[Horatio Leafblower]

OH MY GOD.

Board pig - I would rather teach the pax to stand on the brakes than risk turning 'em into mince meat.

"See that red knob? pull that if she gets away!"

[Track5milefinal]

Run and run quick ? :\:\

[boardpig]

hehe, the pax was a mate, and I fancied his missus. Didn't work though.:}

[Aerodynamisist]

There is a succinct two word phase I use when some one suggests hand propping an aircraft.

I've seen it done many times on tigers and I have seen a man with several thousand hours on tigers get all the bones in one hand broken doing it !

My favourite trick (learnt from an xc falcon ute I once had) is to wack the starter with a spanner - this usually wakes up the solenoid and gives you a chance at starting it normally, this only works if you have juice in the battery so refer to the earlier comments about leaving the rotating beacon on.

[frigatebird]

When the tide had turned and was coming back up the beach, even if there wasn't much energy in the battery to start the Cherokee 6, there seemed to be plenty in the arm. Recall the 260 horse carby version was easier. (Same for Islanders.)