A history lesson in Australian Aviation for a certain reporter...

[Sonny Hammond]

"Ben Sandilands from Plane Talking

....one thing is indisputable. This was the most serious incident ever to happen without loss of life in airline operations in Australia."

Well,

I'll kick off with Air China's 747SP descending into the YSBK control zone on downwind for 16R at YSSY.

How that didn't cause a disaster of epic proportion is anyone's guess.

What about Malaysia Airlines 744 off 27 in YMML, even after prompting from the tower, still took off on the short rwy, cleaned up a heap of lights etc, but no didn't jettison and land asap, nope, they continued to KL.:D

I'm sure there is plenty of other 'incidents', my fellow ppruners might care to share with the ever accurate, never exaggerating press....

[mcgrath50]

Anyone have a report/info about both of these incidents, sounds like interesting stories?

[Buster Hyman]

I recall, whilst walking across the tarmac between AN & INTL terminals at Tulla one foggy morning, looking directly above me after a loud roar & seeing Olympic's undercarriage disappear into the fog....:eek:

[Jabawocky]

Sing Air almost visited the tower at YSSY............ but may have been investigated....cant recal and too lazy to look!

[ACMS]

I hate to "mention the war" again but...........
During '89 a charter mob from Europe ( 737-300) nearly collected the hill north of YBCG whilst trying to conduct a non precision approach to 14 in bad wx, they got very very low as I recall.


And just to show I'm not a biased '89er, a pre-89 TN 733 nearly landed on a road beside MK during an instrument app in bad wx, they lined up on a well lit road due to a large map shift.

oh yes..............A TN 727-200 had the wrong DME selected flying into Perth about 1980 sometime. Thought he was on profile for PH but instead was about 150 miles further east as he'd tuned the wrong DME. He got so low that Perth ATC lost comms and he lost the Perth VOR as well. They realised their mistake below 10,000' and climbed back up. Woops...

[Capt Roo]

How about the SQ 747 that took off on 27, with a fifth pod, and went into the grass?

They somehow got airborne and continued all the way to Singapore!

Ben S must be a young feller :cool:

[ACMS]

oh, and Alitalia and others tried to land on EN rwy 35, they got very low until EN tower called ML App and let them know....

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day 'ACMS',

I think you may find that the 727 concerned descended into Pingelly NDB,
ident at the time, 'PGL', instead of the locator at Parkerville, ident 'PRL'.....

Yep - he 'misappeared'.....low enough to be out of VHF comms - but popped back up again and continued to PH.
Pingelly NDB ident changed to 'PIY' soon after....

Whew!! :eek:

[Worrals in the wilds]

Wasn't there a Garuda that approached the wrong (and rather too short) runway in Melbourne? Could've been ugly all round :eek:

[Sonny Hammond]

Jetstar's 'TOGA tap' incident, again on 27 at ML.

That wasn't far off a nasty result either.....

[18-Wheeler]

A history lesson in Australian Aviation for a certain reporter...


I'd dispute that - He's not a reporter but just someone who writes sensationalist crap. He obviously has little idea of what he's talking about.

[KRUSTY 34]

Good thread. "Those that fail to learn from the mistakes of the past, are doomed to repeat them!"

Once again from the year we don't mention.... A foreign carrier given Australian domestic rights at the stoke of a pen. The Crew of the widebody was instructed to decend 1,500 not below the DME steps. These guys proceeded to decend below the DME steps, straight through the Camden control zone!!!

At the time the story was buzzing through aviation circles, but was pretty well buried in the wider press. Great journalistic ability/integrity then. Seems like little has changed. And the population of the day were deluded in thinking we were living in a democracy! :yuk:

[topdrop]

How about the QFA 737 for 15ILS in Cairns. Both pilots had 33 LLZ tuned up, they followed the needles right towards terrain at Buchan Pt. Vectored back by Approach and GPWS would have kicked in, but still a lesson to be learnt.

[BN APP 125.6]

Top Drop - now that's one I remember.

Believe it is why the LLZ on the non duty RWY is now selected OFF.

[Max Talk]

And then there is the Asiana aircraft (an ISO 9000 accredited operator)that showed on the radar at 6 miles from the threshold at some 300 ft early one morning coming in to YBCS in about 1996.

[K9P]

Saw an Al-A-W*G DC10 on short finals on the Tulla Freeway, gear down flaps down, starting to flare, I go what the! I think he then saw the cars and turned on the taps, got out of there. Didn't hear anything about that in the press.
Also heard about a few internationals lining up on Essendon by mistake, this was a few years ago, don't know if it still occurs?

[denabol]

I remember reading about Garuda trying to land at Essendon, or make that Pascoe Vale, but at least it didn't actually hit anything.

Wasn't there a collision over Sydney a long time ago when an international flight clipped the tail of a TAA jet, or maybe the other way around, and had its innards hanging out when it landed on a foam carpet. But it wouldn't have had as many people on board as the Emirates jet. Someone also ran off the east west runway at Sydney into the Cooks River about the same time in a 707 but I guess no one swallowed the water or they would have died for sure.

My worst fright was being in Mackay the night a TAA Friendship never made it coming in over the sea. We heard screams from a house down the street after someone had driven back from the airport with the news that he hadn't picked up a family member because the plane hadn't turned up. That put me off flying for a long time.

[Cravenmorehead]

What about the time (1998 ?) an NJS 146-300 NJM I think took off from runway 33 (B5) at Cairns at flap 18, the F/O raised the flap instead of the gear. I believe the aircraft got very low; 70-100 feet over the Machans beach area; had stick push etc etc. Tower hit the crash button. That one was very close it was a fully loaded aircraft, 87 pax and in mid December 33 degrees and very little wind. The company changed SOP's shortly after. But once again all learnt some very salient lessons from that one. Moved on and became a safer operator after it all. No one killed maybe lives saved because of the right attitude to safety at a very professional organisation.

[Wod]

Wasn't there a collision over Sydney a long time ago when an international flight clipped the tail of a TAA jet, or maybe the other way around, and had its innards hanging out when it landed on a foam carpet


From memory a Canadian Pacific DC8 hadn't vacated runway after landing and TAA took most of the fin off. Very close to very nasty.

As far as the Ben Sandilands comment is concerned, I don't find it wholly unreasonable. On the basis of the speculation on the incident thread they were 4" from a Max power excursion into small buildings and a small overrun area.

[Yobbo]

How about the Qantas B767 who was preparing to ditch because the wx was below limits in Perth a few years back. Cooler heads in SYD prevailed and he did a auto land.

[dodgybrothers]

oh no!!! Flak jackets please!!!!!

[divingduck]

what about the B737 that did 2 approaches into Cairns in about 88-89, broke off from both because they lost sight of the runway...behind a spot height of about 700 feet! :eek:
Turns out they were flying a Coolangatta approach, not a Cairns approach, wrong page open on the plates.

[SGT Schulz]

QF 717 14 VOR into YBMK descends well below procedure level on outbound leg . Aiming at Black Mountain, continuing the approach after Tower low altitude alert, then trying to land on the Bruce Highway south of Mackay (approx hdg 180)
Once again saved by the Tower. Initially not following the Missed app tracking.!!!

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

How about the Qantas B767 who was preparing to ditch because the wx was below limits in Perth a few years back. Cooler heads in SYD prevailed and he did a auto land.

Was a 330 wasn't it???

[denabol]

Yeah but these are all near misses. Emirates went and hit stuff with a few hundred people on board. I reckon in terms of damaged planes this could be biggest number of people to come close to dying in a plane that ran into something it wasn't supposed to in Australia since the TAA jet clipped a Canadian jet at Sydney.

[Freewheel]

denabol,

I'm pretty sure the 707 at YSSY was Pan Am.

It was buffed and polished at the QF facility before being flown home freight only for a proper fix.

[Bullethead]

Is this dill related to another dill by the same name who yabbers on Sydney radio?

Regards,
BH.

[Trojan1981]

This sort of thing doesn't get an airing in the press. It is not likely Ben S. would know of any of these incidents. Good stories though, keep them coming!

Krusty
If Crikey and the 'net were around in '89 maybe these incidents would have been better disclosed to the public.

I don't know who owns/operates the site but the more sources of information the better. Better still if they are not owned by murdoch:ok:.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Is this dill related to another dill by the same name who yabbers on Sydney radio?

Same dill...has been banished to the southern highlands but still occasionally ventures down to the big smoke I'm told! :hmm:

He used to write quite well but has become a bitter and twisted cranky old bastard in recent years by the looks of it. :*

[KRviator]

Is this dill related to another dill by the same name who yabbers on Sydney radio?
You mean Kyle Sandilands? Or is his real name Ben and Kyle is just a wank to make him sound better?

[boocs]

Perhaps someone should email a link of this thread to Mr.S. himself!!

[Disco Stu]

PANAM at SYD.
196901184 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1969/AAIR/aair196901184.aspx)

This one at SYD everyone has forgotten.
197001258 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1970/AAIR/aair197001258.aspx)

The 727 and the DC8 at SYD.
197101202 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1971/AAIR/aair197101202.aspx)

All from the ATSB website.

[denabol]

Jesus H Christ. You mean Kyle and Ben are the same person!:eek:

[No Idea Either]

While we're on near disasters, dont forget the QF 73 holding incident at CB a few years back.

There but for the grace of God.......(blah blah blah blah)

[denabol]

I was going to put a message on his blog but someone beat me to it.

Anyhow, in his reply Kyle :eek: (Maybe he's Kyle's dad) came up with two other horror stories we've all missed.

I did think about that incident, and two others at Sydney as well, but the real test of a non fatal airliner accident is a jet that slams into something.
The Malaysia Airlines double pod strike at Melbourne only had 170 or 180 passengers on board. Only! Emirates had 225 passengers, four pilots, and I guessing here, at least six cabin crew.
There was no damaged to either airliner involved in a late 80s or early 90s incident at Sydney where a Cathay Pacific 747 that was in the process of taking off had an empty 747 towed across the runway ahead it it. The CX jet was rotated early, sort of hopped over the other jet, which I think was a Qantas 747, settled toward or even onto the runway beyond, and then continued its somewhat spectacular takeoff to Hong Kong.
If memory is correct, a few years later, I think in the early 90s, there was a triple near miss involving a Thai DC-10, an Ansett A320 and a Qantas 747. The Thai jet had been landing from the south and been told to hold short of the intersection of the (then) two runways. The Ansett A320 had priority in landing from the NE on the east-west runway, and the Qantas 747 was holding near the intersection with a full load. When the Ansett pilots realised the Thai jet wasn’t going to stop where instructed they began a go around. They missed the protruding nose of the Thai jet by about 20 feet. Had they hit it given the proximity of the Qantas jet, there was a serious risk of a disaster that would have engulfed three jets and around 700 passengers. In a story in The Bulletin a Qantas source was quoted as saying that the pilots had advised the cabin crew to prepare for a full evacuation as they feared a collision could occur.
But there was no contact between the jets. Although a serious incident, I think the limits were pushed a lot harder by EK 407 than any other non fatal incident in Australia so far.
Thanks for the tip off about Pprune. It can be entertaining at times. I had a look today at the main thread on the Emirates incident and that seemed to contain some knowledgeable speculation in the last few pages as to what could have caused the incident. The other stuff is just sand pit nonsense, which you is inevitable on all open forums.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

The CX jet was rotated early, sort of hopped over the other jet, which I think was a Qantas 747, settled toward or even onto the runway beyond, and then continued its somewhat spectacular takeoff to Hong Kong.

You have got to be sh!tting me!!! :eek::suspect::hmm:

[Capt Kremin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobbo
How about the Qantas B767 who was preparing to ditch because the wx was below limits in Perth a few years back. Cooler heads in SYD prevailed and he did a auto land.

Was a 330 wasn't it???

Neither, and it wasn't anything like that. But believe what you want.

[denabol]

FoxTrop Alpha,

I thought 'Kyle' had to be joking but maybe he does know his history. It happened. On September 11 1990 and the 9.3 MB report on the ATSB site is 199002359.pdf.

It includes the scariest diagram I've even seen of a CX plane at more than 10 degrees pitch up soaring over the back of the QF jet. They must have ordered a truck load of fresh undies for its arrival in Honkers.

[Wiley]

197-something. Al Italia 747 maintained 3000' on departure from YMML hesding north, at night and more or less in IMC, and, acording to quite a few pilot residents at Mt Macedon, when within about 300' of starting a rather large bushfire on said mountain.

I'd have to agree with the earlier poster who said the TAA 727 clipping the Canadian DC-8's tail at SYD was probably a more serious accident with the potential to hve killed more (and was every bit as close a shave) than the EK incident. Although God only knows how many residents of Keilor the EK bird might have taken with it if it cleared the Keilor gully before hitting the ground.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Thanks for that, but he said the CX flight "...settled toward or even onto the runway beyond, and then continued its somewhat spectacular takeoff..."

Now I haven't flown out of Sydney much, but I'd say there would've been less than a thousand feet of runway beyond what was then TWY Charlie, meaning it would have been a big effort for the CX jet to "...settle toward or even onto..." that tiny bit of tarmac after passing overhead another 747...:eek:

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Neither, and it wasn't anything like that. But believe what you want.

So enlighten us Einstein! :hmm:

[Keg]

How about the Qantas B767 who was preparing to ditch because the wx was below limits in Perth a few years back. Cooler heads in SYD prevailed and he did a auto land.

Was a 330 wasn't it???

I suspect the aim of this thread was to go with real incidents, not urban myths. The original version of this particular myth had the aircraft as a classic 747. None of the myths regarding various aircraft types and ditching at PH has any resemblance to reality but as Kremin said, believe what you like. :rolleyes:

Fox Alpha 18, there actually was an A330 that landed in PH with FG below minima- SY too a year or so earlier. Ditching wasn't considered an option in either case.

If you want something a little more credible then stick with the 747 that missed out on a NDB approach diverting into YPLM and then did a let down over water before doing a scud run to get back to the field.

[divingduck]

I thought of another couple....

The Ansett B747 on it's first flight that dumped too much fuel and had to land on it's first approach even though it didn't have a nose wheel. Wheelbarrow all the way down the Sydney runway.

The F28 that was caught out during either fog or cyclone at Broome/Derby and wound up landing at Fitzroy Crossing after dark (no lights) the runway being lit by locals with their 4Wds!! Apparently flamed out as it crossed the boundary fence.

The Pan Am B747SP that flamed out on the runway at Sydney after a flight from LAX.

[denabol]

I can't find any reference in the CX/QF report of the Cathay flight settling back but it contains eyewitness accounts of how close they came. I can't get over this incident and the triple near miss fading from aviation memory. I have no memory of either. If any of these jets had hit they wouldn't have been forgotten even for 100 years. The only serious accidents I remember at Sydney Airport were an Ansett Viscount going down in a storm and the Advance commuter crash in 1980 because I was in a hospital waiting room watching the news waiting for worse news about a relative who died after a car crash earlier in the day.

[Keg]

Has someone mentioned the AN A320 near miss with a Thai aircraft during LAHSO ops in the early '90s?

On Monday 12 August 1991, at 1023 hours Eastern Standard Time (EST), a McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Series 30ER aircraft (DC-10) operated by Thai Airways International was landing on runway 34 at Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport. The DC-10 was carrying 185 persons. At the same time, an Airbus A320-211 aircraft (A320), operated by Ansett Australia was on a short final approach for landing on runway 25. The A320 was carrying 110 persons. Runways 34 and 25 intersect, and Simultaneous Runway Operations (SIMOPS) were in progress. Landing instructions to the crew of the DC-10 included a requirement for the aircraft to be held short of the intersection of runways 34 and 25. A Qantas Airways Boeing B747 aircraft was holding on taxiway Victor ('V'), north of runway 25 and west of runway 34, awaiting the landing of the A320 and a subsequent clearance to cross runway 07/25. The B747 was carrying 372 persons. While observing the DC-10's landing roll, the captain of the A320 judged that the DC-10 might not stop before the intersection of the runways. He elected to initiate a go-around from a low height above the runway. Under heavy braking, the DC-10 slowed to about 2 kts ground speed, at which time the nose of the aircraft was approximately level with the edge of runway 07/25. During the go-around executed by the crew of the A320, that aircraft passed above the DC-10 on its left and the B747 on the right of its flight path.

199100052 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1991/AAIR/aair199100052.aspx)

[denabol]

Yeah that was in the Kyle blog but he says because nothing slammed into anything it didn't count. I don't know about that. The CX jumped over the QF incident and this are as scary to me as the Emirates incident for sure. Just imagine if any of them had touched.

[GoGirl]

Ben was not the originator of the comment actually.

It came from an investigator investigating the incident.

So I heard :ok:

GG

[Gerry Hattrick]

I must be an old fella because I clearly remember Pan Am Jet at YSSY as a 747.

[A37575]

during an instrument app in bad wx, they lined up on a well lit road due to a large map shift
Obviously an automatics monkey....aren't they all nowadays?

[Hempy]

And the one that gave us TCAS (http://www.aph.gov.au/HANSARD/senate/commttee/s1658.pdf)...."do you have any idea what you have just done?"...strangely enough it's not on the ATSB database, yet the investigation is mentioned in the Senate (IR950117) :confused:

[teresa green]

The worst ever involving a Australian reg. aircraft, has to come close to the Qantas Connie, who in the early 60s thundered down the runway only to burst into flames, and somehow the cabin crew lead by FSD Pat McGann got all pax out in something like 50 secs, the aircraft was under command of Capt. Alan Wharton, who also got the flight crew out in around the same time. The aircraft was totally destroyed, and the accident took place in Teneriffe, Canary Islands. Both Wharton and Mcgann received a gong. ( It always amazes me how QF manage to forget this little "incident' when reporting their safety record, and or lack of prangs.

[Wunwing]

The Connie 1049 accident occurred at Plaisance, Mauritius.

The Pan Am into the swamp in Sydney was a B707 300. I was sitting on the hill having my dinner and watched it happen.I still have the photos of the Boeing crash team repairing the aircraft in Hangar 131 and I made a lot of overtime shovelling swamp mud out of Lower41 prior to Boeing's arrival.

And then there was the DC10 which during morning peak hour overan to the east and ended up in the boundary fence with the nose over General Holmes Drive in about 1970 .

Others that also come to mind are both B707 and B747 gear collapses at Syd terminal during pushback and or fuelling. If they had failed during takeoff---well???

[denabol]

So after reading through this thread with white knuckles it seems like the reporter was right all along, the worst non fatal accident (as in ding, crunch) was the Emirates one at Melbourne with around 250 people on board. I can tell you it has quenched my desire to board another of their flights.

[Sunfish]

At Ansett in the 70's I remember reading an internal incident report from a B727(?) Captain that said words to the effect "If you use the International DME approach plate for xx at Cairns while using the Australian DME you will hit the summit of XXXX exactly 250 ft below the summit". - his F/O had made a slight mistake.

[Disco Stu]

The records of the ATSB (and its predecesors) and its worldwide counterparts, are littered with nearlies and what might have beens.

Those same records also contain the instances where the lessons of the nearlies and what might have beens have been either ignored or not understood.

There are also those reports that have had a beneficial outcome as well.

Sandilands contention is neither right or wrong just cleverly constructed wordsmithing.:suspect:

[Old Fella]

The Qantas Super Connie which ran off the end of Rwy 13 after a failed abort attempt was VH-EAC "Southern Wave" under the command of Capt E. Ditton. The aircraft No 3 engine did not develop full power and VH-EAC did not accelerate as it should have, which invalidated the computed V1. The engine problem was not called immediately it became evident (called at 112 Kts) and the abort was initiated very close to V1 of 115 Kts. The investigation found the late call of the engine failure to develop rated power and the delay in application of full brakes and available reverse thrust contributed to the overrun and subsequent loss of the aircraft. Head of the enquiry, Jim Brough, cited inadequacies in both training and operational procedures as contributory causes. Much the same findings followed the Bangkok Qantas B747-400 overrun. Something in excess of $1 Million in repairs to save the hull loss has been mentioned in other forums. As is sometimes said "The more things change the more they stay the same"

[teresa green]

My apologies if I got it a bit wrong, but my info came from Pat McGann himself. As we had a few turps when he talked about it, it got lost in a haze of some excellent whisky and the march of time. I could have sworn the aircraft was under the command of Alan Wharton, and certainly Pat was the FSD. Pat and the Captain got a gong as stated before, and Pat went on to be a QF icon, better known as "Budgie" he was considered to be one of the most admired QF employees of all time. Best mate to many a pilot and cabin crew member, he ran a tight but fair ship. With a heart of gold, Pat "up the track" gave advice to the "love lorn" to the distressed, to the bereaved, and all the other ails that beset airline crews. He was known for putting his hand in his pocket to help others if need be, and of course was best known for starting Qantas Pathfinders (a charity that still runs to this day). Awarded the OA for his services to Charity, Aviation, and to Qantas Airways, he was and still is a special bloke. His feat of getting PAX out of the aircraft that day went down in the history of aviation, setting all time records, (especially as some ladies refused to go without their handbags and womens stuff) Pat physically threw them out, indeed a icon, and belongs, and should be installed, in QF's hall of fame.:D

[B772]

Gerry Hattrick. There were 2 Pan Am incidents at SYD, A B707 and a B747.

The B707 ingested a number of birds on T/O. Investigation revealed the a/c was slightly over weight due to an incorrect fuel SG and the brakes were not up to scratch.

The B747 over-run was attended by the firees who encountered a Captain shouting obscenities from the window saying he was going to taxy the a/c out of the over-run.

[Old Fella]

teresa green I have no doubt of the validity of your claims in support of FSD Pat McGann. My info regarding who was in command comes from a couple of sources including http://casa.gov.au/fsa/2000/jan/page49.pdf which indicates Capt E. Ditton was in command. Qantas indeed does have an enviable record, however the long held belief that they have never had a fatal crash, nor lost a hull, are the stuff of urban myths. Qantas can justifiably claim to have never lost a jet hull although they came very close in Bangkok. My point was that the enquiry in both the Connie and the B744 accidents cited inadequacies in training and operational procedures as contributory factors, although the accidents were about 40 years apart. The full report on the Bangkok accident should be required reading for all airline pilots.

[blow.n.gasket]

What about the Qantas Drover that was lost in Milne bay and I believe a Beaver was also lost up in the Highlands.

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday Old Fella. Absolutely right that we can all learn from the misfortunes of QF1 at the 19th hole.

However I think the figure was closer to in excess of $100 mil (yikes!). But I will stand corrected.

[Freewheel]

...not to mention 2 catalinas during the war, with a Lancastrian not long afterwards, all without trace, but we're digressing here....

[C441]

Was it United or Pan Am that managed to pop the left wing gear structure through the top of the wing on a 747-SP after a less-than-smooth landing on 16(L) in Sydney?

[Keg]

Krusty, about $90mill if I recall.

c441, perhaps you mean 16R? Pan Am I think was long gone when 16L opened.

[Going Boeing]

C441, that was Pan AM & it happened on two occasions.

Keg, the figures have been available on many PPRuNe threads & yeah it cost US$96m to fix & the aircraft was insured for US$187m but that doesn't stop stop contributors to this forum from perpetuating the myth that it should have been written off but QF did not want to admit a jet hull loss.

[Capt Claret]

I'd like to thank QF for saving Mrs C's car. It was almost written off in an accident, some $20+ K for repairs to a $40+ K car. :ok:

[beaver_rotate]

I'd like to thank QF for saving Mrs C's car

And by car Claret i'm guessing you mean VH-NXE?? woopppsss :}

[Old Fella]

Krusty34 Of course you are closer to the figure, a typo on my part. Three of my family were on the flight and I was able to read the full report, which somehow was made available to one of them. It made very interesting reading, especially the CVR transcript and the DFDR info from TOD to finally stopping. Extremely fortunate that it did not end much worse, considering it went off the end at 88 Kts, compared to the Connie which went off at about 40 kts.

[Keg]

I was able to read the full report, which somehow was made available to one of them.

You mean perhaps from the report available from the ATSB (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1999/AAIR/aair199904538.aspx)web site? :ugh:

[Old Fella]

Keg. No, I mean a printed copy of substantial size which was provided to my aunt who was slightly injured in the event. I guess it was the same as the ATSB web report and it was several years ago.

[Fark'n'ell]

Old Fella

Could post it here.(If possible)

[Old Fella]

Fark'n'ell You can click on the link at Keg's post and it will take you to it. If that doesn't work for you PM and I'll give you the detailed link.

[denabol]

I see on his blog he has got stuck into Emirates again, and made reference to the difference between incidents and accidents and repeated his original claim.

Maybe more to the point, I haven't seen a word about this accident in the rest of the media for over a week. Like, it didn't happen.

[Capt Claret]

And by car Claret i'm guessing you mean VH-NXE?? woopppsss :}

Sorry to burst your bubble beaver but the car is an Astra convertible, seats 4 at a pinch, and the driver tried to fly it across some paddocks!

The connection between it and QF 1 is both cost about 50% of their value to repair. In Mrs C's case, no one has accused her of repairing it just to avoid a hull loss.

[C441]

....less-than-smooth landing on 16(L) in Sydney?

Yeah, I meant 16R. It was in brackets because back then it was the only rwy 16!

[Checkboard]

The Ansett B747 on it's first flight that dumped too much fuel and had to land on it's first approach

It didn't dump too much fuel and have to land. It failed to extend the nose gear, as the emergency hydraulic pump hadn't been turned on by the flight engineer, who also misinterpreted the gear display, failing to notice the nose gear hadn't extended. They landed despite a gear warning.

[Old Fella]

Yes, the F/E failed to note that the NLG was not indicating down. No, he did not fail to turn on the "Emergency hydraulic pump", which in fact is the Air driven hydraulic pump, for No 1 hydraulic system. It was found to have less than full output, the reason for which was not determined. Under high demand conditions the ADP's will augment the EDP's. The NLG did not lower, due in part to the fact that the flap was running out right down to touchdown and the hydraulic systems could not cope with the demand of flap and gear simultaneously without all pumps operable. (No 1 engine driven pump was not available). The Captain elected to continue with the landing despite a landing gear warning horn and an unsafe indication. Worth noting that the F/O had not yet completed line training to the type and the F/E was on his first revenue flight on the B747.

[Diesel Fitter]

When the ATSB report eventually emerges and all you willy wavers have finished your mines bigger than yours bragadoccio I look forward to running the tape measure over your (potential accident loss of life which mighta coulda maybe but never happened) and comparing it's length with Sandilands (potential accident loss of life which mighta coulda maybe but never happened).

[KRUSTY 34]

Christ Diesel Fitter, if your implication is that pilots should not have an opinion, then you obviously don't understand the nature of the beast. I thought the thread was going along nicely. Sure some Chinese whispers creep in, but that's almost inevitable.

Usually when someone accuses pilots of lining their "members" up, its more often than not by a person with zero or at least limited aeronautical experience. Say maybe an engineer who sees pilots as overpaid underworked primadonnas. Ironically that can sometimes be the case, but remember, this is a PROFESSIONAL PILOT'S forum, and among the collective experiences to be found here are opinions earned over many thousands of hours FLYING EXPERIENCE. Something that non professional pilots can sometimes fail to grasp.

If I am off the mark here, I humbly appologise in advance :(