Roster Woes - Are We Going Back To The Bad Old Days

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I am dismayed to learn that are management are mounting a campaign to remove the current Equal Time Roster which has thus far produced some tremendous benefits, not only at a personal level, but for the overall saferty and operating health of the Company.

Whilst I understrand that in these times the Helicopter Operators must naturally looking to maximise productivity and profit in all areas of the operationsI cannot help but feel dismayed, THAT YET AGAIN the easy target would appear to be the pilots rosters.

In my neck of the woods, all three operators currently provide equal time rosters for the pilots. So no doubt if my Management are successful in achieving their aim, each operator in turn will end up with no option but to follow suit, just to remain competetive. A TRULLY VERY THIN EDGE OF A WEDGE.

Why is it that AOC Management think that stretching the crews thin, reducing wages and any other terms and condition we might have, of the workgroup that takes the most risk seems to be their only response the moment the accountants start shuffling in their over-padded leatherbound seats.

Prior to the Equal time roster, I lost count of the number of times I sat at the controls holding at W5, only to be startled by a large object filling the windscreen (A737 landing on the threshold or something like)......Realising I had been day-dreaming or just shagged from endless fatigue enducing, bone crushing misery of a non-cyclical in-human roster pattern.

Why should it be that:

ALL OTHER OPERATIONAL AREAS OF THE OFFSHORE INDUSTRY OPERATE ON EQUAL CYCLICAL TIME - as their management recognise the extreme pressure and fatigue caused by irregular roster patterns.

MY MANAGEMENT THINK SO LITTLE OF ME that they expect me to tell my family that I have no idea when I will work or when I will be home. Birthdays, Holdiays, family time - FORGET IT. Despite my dedication, hard work and expertise my life and my families lives, forever, are expected to be operated on a basis of chaos.

DESPITE THE CRY'S OF "SAFETY IS OUR NUMBER ONE PRIORITY" The Management are trying to take us back to the dark ages of rostering that has been proven is extremely fatigueing, physically destructive and emotionally disruptive as we are plunged into direct conflict with our families trying to lead normal lives.

I URGE both my Management and the Pilot workforce to explore all avenues avaiable to prevent removal of the Equal Time Cyclical roster.

Personally I AM NOT PREPARED TO GO BACK TO THE BAD OLD DAYS

ITS NOT SAFE

ITS NOT HEALTHY

ITS NOT PRODUCTIVE

And above all ITS NOT HOW I WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY WORKING LIFE.

DB

[HOGE]

Got to think of the oil companies profits!

[Pullharder]

Could this be a way that our spineless,useless management (and I use that term very lightly)...can get more money out of the oil companies obscene profits?? They are being so unbelievable in the way they are going back on everything we fought for,for all the reasons DB mentions...so if we finally stop flying,the oil companies lose millions per day, our spineless management can blame us??? Instead of going to them with balls and telling them that the contracts aren't paying enough??? I mean, did we not fly enough last year at all bases??? Yes,I know that the flying schedule has slowed somewhat with less flights...but HELL, they still NEED us to fly,and if we ain't making good profits working for oil and gas, what's the point...lets stop flying then :ugh:!!!! What are we to the oil companies..charity?? Maybe if there is an attack on all three operators pilots T&C we should ALL stop flying once and for all......see how long that would last...Personally,I am so sick of the pilots being blamed for EVERYTHING that goes wrong on the N.Sea....Not :mad: management...
Well, if they take away our T&C's, the extra I will have to work will be lost in sick days....and if I want to do anything a month ahead with no roster telling me when I'm off cos the crappy company hasn't produced it yet...guess what...sick again...
Had enough.
Rant over.
PH.

[Variable Load]

DB, you might not get too much understanding from your Canadian colleagues. Canadian rules mean they can work 14 hour duty days, every day for 42 days in a row.

It only ends at day 42 because another lucky victim will arrive to take over.

If he doesn't arrive you can just keep on working :eek:

You may think that the CAA regulations are still inadequate. Guys here are experiencing UK style rules for the first time and it is something of a revelation to them.

Back to your point, perhaps you should ask those who "manage" you if the same changes are also going to be introduced in other European locations. If not, why not? :E

[helimutt]

It really sucks, big time. And management have said there will be NO negotiation. Roll on April 20th. I'll be interested to see how many of their aircraft fly that day, or maybe not?

Is anyone going to do anything about it?:ugh::mad:


PS, DB, management aren't 'mounting a campaign' they ARE implementing these changes with no choice in the matter.

[rotorknight]

Isn't it lovely being in the oil industry:{

[Wizzard]

Quote Pullharder

"Well, if they take away our T&C's, the extra I will have to work will be lost in sick days....and if I want to do anything a month ahead with no roster telling me when I'm off cos the crappy company hasn't produced it yet...guess what...sick again.."

Perfect, now not only will I have to work extra days due to the roster changes, I'll have to work even harder to cover for "colleagues" like you:mad:

When will you guys learn that going sick does not stuff the company - it stuffs your work-mates:ugh: Grow up!

[Outwest]

It only ends at day 42 because another lucky victim will arrive to take over.

If he doesn't arrive you can just keep on working

Actually, after those 42 straight days of work you must have 5 days rest then go for another 42 days!!!! :yuk: :ugh:

[Variable Load]

Actually, after those 42 straight days of work you must have 5 days rest then go for another 42 days!!!!

Phew, I'm glad that exists! There was me thinking that the Canadian rules were perhaps slightly tiring :E

[griffothefog]

Lad's,

I was on an equal time roster on the North pea over 23 years ago. !!!!! :eek:

YOU have the power to do something about it and put management firmly in its place. Come on boy's and girls, its a "labour love fest" out there, where most immigrants have more rights than you do :{

What next, Taliban rule and Sha**a law? :E

Good luck with that.......... Did my freedom fighting up there many moons ago, its in your hands now just like it was in ours then. :ugh:

Oh yeh, I wouldn't take our Canadian brothers rostering system to heart, they got slavery and below industry pay down pat years ago.:( But.... sniper firing and long line ops... The Canucks rock !! :ok:

[T4 Risen]

How are Scotia management forcing this change in terms and conditions through with out BALPA stopping them?

What is the general feeling in the crewroom as to what to do about it?

Have they looked at amending the current roster to cover supply and demand of crews without removing the ET roster?

T4:confused:

[SASless]

Griffo says it right.....whining and crying in your beer will not work.

You do have Balpa and with a whole lot of backbone you can retain your rostering system.

Those junior in seniority might start looking for other work as redundancies will require a shedding of excess folks.

Bristow has never been known for using legal, rational, or fair methods when it comes to axing folks so be prepared for folks to start dropping all around you rather than seeing an orderly last hired....first fired method.

Think back to the occasion where it was first hired...first fired that wound up in civil proceedings in which the pilots won their case....those of them that had the courage to challenge the firings.

[TTFD]

Bristow has never been known for using legal, rational, or fair methods when it comes to axing folks so be prepared for folks to start dropping all around you rather than seeing an orderly last hired....first fired method

Am I missing something here? Where did it say that Bristow was trying to change the rosters? I know they have just announced cuts in staff and meetings today and tomorrow should bring out more info. However, AFAIK there has never been any mention of changing the rosters, as the management were impressed by the way they are working (or so I was told by a BALPA rep).

However, it will be intersting to see if they stick to LIFO or try some other method. New ageism rules would make it difficult to take from the top, but previous management came up with some novel ways to take the most junior captains out the last time, although fortunately every one got their jobs back within a few weeks.

I believe it is the other red (or is it orange?), white and blue that are having problems with their management. Have to say that for once, the new culture in Bristow (despite the announced cuts) has been the most open and mature that I can remember in a number of years. They may not be perfect (what management is?), but they have made great efforts in trying to be open over the last few years.

Any takers on bets that HR aren't included in the cuts, but they actually grow in numbers again? :\

[windowseatplease]

Is "last in, first out" a fair policy on redundancy?

What about the new co-jo with massive loan repayments (due to the fact that employers won't pay for IRs anymore) and no other hope of finding a job because of his low hours.

[Pullharder]

Hey Wizzard......then why don't you join me on the same day?? Why don't we ALL arrange an unofficial "sick period" starting the same day to run for "x" number of days....then nobody has to work extra, we make a point to management, and we still get paid!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[212man]

Hey Wizzard......then why don't you join me on the same day?? Why don't we ALL arrange an unofficial "sick period" starting the same day to run for "x" number of days....then nobody has to work extra, we make a point to management, and we still get paid!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'm reminded why I left the UK.

So you work 6 months a year, get 3-4 times the average UK annual wage...forget it, no point arguing...

Glad the Ghurkas and Royal Marines in Helmand don't think like you do - f***ing parasite!

[SASless]

I guess you sacrificed and took a pay cut when you left did you 212Man?

The "Call in Sick" attitude exists in the Union Airline bunch here in the USA as well. Seen it happen at a convention one time....guy was scheduled for a flight the next day....picked up his cell phone called in sick....and returned to his drinking! Did not mind the calling in as much as I did the comments he made before and after the call.

[212man]

I guess you sacrificed and took a pay cut when you left did you 212Man?

You know what - yes I did! It was a calculated gamble, based on verbal assurances. Bear in mind I was already 20,000+ GBP behind my UK counterparts at the time I left my UK employer.

Prior to that, I took a slight Gross pay cut and took the tax free advantage. Picked up some serious FTL infringements, Malaria (the real one - not the off for 3 days with a headache variety) and was taken hostage, but we were a happy band who worked hard and played hard. By the time I left I was Making less as a 16 year pilot with CTTC and Nigeria allowance than a year 1 ABN captain, and my basic was about year 3 SFO in ABN. That's why I left......Principle:ugh:

I tell you what, jump on the Clapham Omnibus and present this topic "roster woes" and see how much sympathy you get.....:ugh:

[212man]

P3 - thanks. It's good to see a balanced perspective. I do my grocery shopping with the Ghurkas and this "I'll pull a sickey" mentality really raises the red mist with me - it's like a sick TV spoof, or 'The Office'.

[TTFD]

Is "last in, first out" a fair policy on redundancy?
LIFO is supported by BALPA for many reasons including retaining pilot experience having significant safety benefits. It is more likely that an employment tribunal will support a LIFO based redundancy policy that has strong industrial support/agreement.

What about the new co-jo with massive loan repayments (due to the fact that employers won't pay for IRs anymore) and no other hope of finding a job because of his low hours.

What about the person who has worked most of his career in aviation, has a mortgage, car and/or other loans, plus a wife and kids at school or university to support and is only a few years away from retirement? Would they think it fair that they are made redundant when they see someone who has only been in the company 5 minutes and keeps their job?


I don't like the thought of anyone being made redundant, but there has to be someone. Better that a company keeps staff with experience than get rid of them.

Is it fair? Well, there is no fair way to make staff redundant. There are criteria which are agreed by the Company and the Union and that is what should be stuck to.

[212man]

TTFD,
I agree. In 1999 we saw a ludicrous shedding of experience that has, arguably, never been replaced. That's not to say I didn't feel nervous in 1992!

[SASless]

Ah well now we see your pique 212Man. You were a big man in a small pond and absent the infamous secret hand shake that leads to riches within the kingdom....learned a great lesson in Helicopter Economics 101.

It would appear the risk of food poisoning from North Sea carry outs far outweighed (out weighs) the risks you cite while flying for the company in Nigeria. They do make allowances for hardships as I recall.

All the time I thought you were rolling in the dough, enjoying the fame and perks that came with the job as it brought lots of travel, responsibility, and authority with the few minor downsides you mention.

I guess your biggest problem nowadays is "pinging" in your Porsche when you get bad petrol.

Sounds as though we think much the same about the thought processes that led to your wake up on the ol' road to Damascus noted in the Good Book.

[212man]

SAS, I shall afford you the courtesy that my 00:45 local time demands, for fear of being accused of pique!

If you will give me the courtesy of re-reading my posts you will find no reference to small ponds or the like.

With regard to the wider question, who do you think the HR departments are arnswering to? The Finance Depts. Who do you think the finance Depts answer too? The customer (indirectly) Do you really believe that the customers are somehow immune to all of this financial instability? Do you really believe that the Oil Companies in the UK and Europe are sitting back and basking in profits?

If you do, then kindly go off and daydream. If not, thanks for sticking with reality!

[Pullharder]

Oh come on 212 man...
a)take a chill pill.....:}
b) Quote" Do you really believe that the customers are somehow immune to all of this financial instability? Do you really believe that the Oil Companies in the UK and Europe are sitting back and basking in profits"?
COME ON MAN...Give me a break, you want us to feel sorry for the oil companies now...like they are struggling??? Oil prices may be down but COME ON!!!!! :ugh:
"BP was at the centre of a huge row yesterday (OCT' 08)!! after unveiling record quarterly profits of $10bn (£6.4bn) - a rise of 148%". THE GUARDIAN.....
So since then they've "lost" all of those profits????? :=
What else can I say to wind you up....Hmmmm...Why don't you return to the UK and join me on the sick list..:oh:

[GKaplan]

Oil price went down, but it's going to go up again... rather sooner than later.

Today, Brent Crude Oil is at approx $53 /barrel...:E

[2papabravo]

I agree with 212man.

Pullharder, I hear one oil company is forecast to make a tenth of what it did last year. Mothballing of rigs is on the cards, Invergordon slowly filling with un-used semi's. It's not that they have loads of money and aren't choosing to spend it, the NS is simply uneconomic in its current state.

The service sector is vastely over-priced for the current oil price...simple
This will lead to activity levels dropping (significantly)...simple
That will make negotiating a pilot's idea of a 'good' roster very difficult...simple.

[T4 Risen]

It seems there has been a slight thread slip here. Back to the question in hand, What are the crews/balpa CC proposing, to change the current plan of the CHC Managment? Have there been attempts to provide a more productive version of the ET roster? what exactly are management planning to offer as a replacement? I know the troubles of implementing the original rosters were not few, so are they planning on going through all that sh#t again and for what purpose?

T4

[rotorknight]

whatever the initial thread is about,I am must be hallucinating that I read from people(pilots or otherwise) that actually feel sorry for the poor,poor oil companies.
I have the cure,lets all fly for free on the canadian 42 on 5 off 42 roster and see if we can help these poor oil companies to increase there thin profits a bit.

What a load of b...ocks:*

[2papabravo]

Rotorknight,

I do not feel sorry for the oil companies believe me. But having an attitude that they are the 'bad guys', which many in our line of work do, is a bit naive. My point though, is that it will be belt-tightening and compromise all round to get through the next few years relatively unscathed. That will mean rosters that aren't so ideal.

[rotorknight]

2papabravo,

On that point I will agree with you,they are not the bad guys.They have for the last 15 years supplied me with a very good living(and still do).
I think for our part the cure is that maybe our beloved helicopter companies start doing the same as the oil companies do,i.e. price fixing(oops did I really say that),so we can all keep on earning a good(and yes I think it is good) salary and live style.
If my memory serves me correctly the oil price we have now was actually very high not to long ago,which means the oil companies make enormous profits,while helicopter operators fly on an almost break even basis,which in turn is idiotic.

have a good evening

[spinwing]

Mmmm ....

"I see flight ops like a car : pilots/engine and ops-scheduling/gearbox. You can tune up your engine to give more bhp but if you're missing a gear you won't go much faster..."

The other side of this quote of course is that if you try to increase the power output of your engine .... most likely it WILL NOT last as long!


:*

[212man]

whatever the initial thread is about,I am must be hallucinating that I read from people(pilots or otherwise) that actually feel sorry for the poor,poor oil companies.

I tell you what Rotorknight and Pullharder, spend a few years whith your salary being determined by a bunch of hysterical 25 year old city traders, varying between 35,000 and 150,000 pa, and let's see where you come out. Will you have lived on 35,000 and have a fat savings account, or will you have lived on 150,000 and have a huge debt?

And then the equal time: at the moment you have a lot of pilots hovering around 750 hours/year; how on Earth are they going to be more "productive" with 18 more days on?

Well, maybe there will be fewer hours to share between pilots......

[rotorknight]

I tell you what Rotorknight and Pullharder, spend a few years whith your salary being determined by a bunch of hysterical 25 year old city traders,

And why would we want to do this:confused:

[212man]

It might give you a better insight into what it would be like running an oil company!

[bondu]

Trouble is, after years of oil companies trying to tell us how to operate helicopters, the whole thing wears a bit thin!!!:ugh:

bondu

[griffothefog]

Back to thread.....

North sea life has it's ups and downs and in this regard nothing has really changed in the last 20 years. Companies go through various phases of high's and lows and this reflects directly in profits and at the tail end rostering.
Many before you have had to make the same old worn out decisions... disrupt a happy settled family life (kids at good schools, wife happy working full/part time) or move on to pastures green. It's a difficult one, because as much as you whinge about it, life oop north is actually rather pleasant and a great place to bring up the nippers, plus the pay is better than most other gigs for what is after all a fairly boring, mundane and safe form of aviation....(if you don't agree with that, I suggest you DO move on). Most guy's elect to stay for the stability of family life and for that I cannot blame them or criticise....:D

When you have pilots staying for that reason, they are never likely to hold your hand on the way to the gallows.....

If you are not prepared to stand up and be counted, either shut the f**ck up or move on. I applaude, whatever your decision......:ok:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Personally,

The line is drawn in the sand and was put there by a determined effort on the part of the Pilots and the Balpa CC.

Anybody posting on this thread advocating we should put up with this change cos we have a good life/salary and so forth is part of the problem.

I work to provide wealth and stability for my family and I will never give way just so some slimy executives can place an order for that "Ivory Backscratcher" they have had their eye on.

The Oil Industry makes billions of £££ revenue and profit each year and thats fine by me, but I want my slice of that pie and I am not prepared to have my back broken earning it.

The ABZ Pilots will stick together because we know that is the only thing the management will respond do (I doubt they understand it).

None of us will accept this kind of knee jerk recession scaremongering because if we are to do so...where does it end..... us working every day for nothing!!

This kind of pathetic **** is caused only be a few middlemanagment types trying to earn a name for themselves and for most of them...I have stood up and witnessed more inteligence swilling around in a toilet bowl than in these people.

For the rest of you, not as fortunate as us, get a proper job or at least accept that by us up here maintaining the "Standard" that befits a North Sea Helicopter pilot, you at least have something to aspire to (salary and T&Cs I mean).

If they want to make savings, sack some of the hundreds of shiny arsed wasters that do nothing but erode our profits.

DB Out

[Brom]

Had a bad back nine DB?
Joking apart, I totally agree with you, the T&Cs we fought for have benefited the whole of the UK pilot workforce to some degree or other.
By the way, I believe that CHC are still hiring 'Shiny ar$ed suits'. One day management will achieve their ultimate goal, no pilots, no engineers and no helicopters, management bliss!

[rotorknight]

Well said and amen DB

[FredFri]

+100, Db !

[Pullharder]

212man....take DB's post and shove it where the sun don't shine...along with an extra chip for your other shoulder.....you know nothing of my background, how hard I have worked(and fought on the ground,not in the air!!)..... in my earlier years...I may not have been to Helmand or Iraq (this time round)but I've done my bit...I was not given this job from mummy and daddy,and I'll be damned sure I won't give up what I earned for crappy middle management and super rich oil companies trying to squeeze blood out of everyone....:*
DB, absolutely spot on.....:ok:

[fkelly]

Y'know, it almost sounds as if one of the protagonists in this little tiff is directly employed by an oil company

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Big respect 212 man. You are probably....and I do not say this lightly..A COMPLETE KNOB.

Rotorknight and FredFri.......Don't waste your keyboard time chastising what can only be described as the "juice of a pluke".

We all know waht this is about....A LINE IN THE SAND.

We know where the line is.

WE FIGHT TO KEEP IT THERE!!!!!!

[sanddancer]

Can I suggest we ignore the N American based pi__ing contest re 'my FTLs are worse than yours' and 'I earn way less then you' yada yada - all I see is big chips on shoulders and jealousy.

With regard to the main event I'm with DB - this attempt by management in CHC hasn't come with any degree of explanation/justification it's just standard 'old skool' big-stick management style and, have no doubt, if we roll over and take it on this, it'll be the thin end of the wedge. If there was a degree of candour or trust demonstrated then the situation may be different, however, I think we all feel that there is a hidden agenda, probably biased towards job losses.

The BALPA negotiations that resulted in the lifestyle roster were balanced and considered, there was an element of 'give' in the pay award for the 'take' in lifestyle - if the damagement want to take the lifestyle back they had better be prepared to give something in return.....

[Variable Load]

Can I suggest we ignore the N American based pi__ing contest re 'my FTLs are worse than yours' and 'I earn way less then you' yada yada - all I see is big chips on shoulders and jealousy

sanddancer, not sure if your rather general warbling was directed at my posts? If it was then you misunderstood my intent. I was actually highlighting that the Canadian CHC FTL scheme is DANGEROUS. But the boys seem to put up with it?

I don't understand why :ugh:

[coning angel]

Whilst peering over an aviators shoulder recently, I note that a well known large North Sea Helicopter operator is under major financial pressure. External management Consultants are being used to re-align the business model with a more 'mid-Atlantic?' style of autocratic management. True?

Unfortunately, this isn't going down suitably with the troops in-house and has one wondering, is there about to be a major re-alignment of North Sea working Terms and Conditions for all of the North Sea operators, if these intended plans are put into place? Is it possible that if one large enough company gets away with this, the others will follow suit?

[Pullharder]

Hey Coning angle...the answer is probably "yes":\ ....if Chc managment get away with it:mad:, other north sea operaters will follow suit...so hopefully,if chc starts industrial action,the pilots of the other operaters will be very wise to support their fellow pilots in every way they can (and we all know what they can do to help):ok:
Cheers.
PH.

[helimutt]

Pullharder, I have to agree totally. If Industrial action is taken then i'd wondered if the guys elsewhere (same co. but different bases, and also the opposition) might help by maybe not agreeing to help out to plug the gaps so to speak.
I wonder how long it'll be before we see actual strike action on the Norh Sea and also, if rumours are anything to go by, if the oil companies will prevent it by talking to the employer about possible repercussions if industrial action does take place?

I suppose we all sit and wait to find out. :ooh: