T5 - Conformance ( a rant)

[Munnyspinner]

BA Putting the con in performance!

After at least two trips per week through LHR domestic for the 7-8 years, mainly with BA, I was so insensed with the cock up that call itself T5 that, since opening I have pretty much been able to give it a wide berth.

The first time I arrived at T5 we had to wait 25minutes for ground crew to open the gate, 20 minutes for someone to open the door before we could get off a flight that had already been delayed for an hour on the ground before departure.

My outbound experience was no better. As usual,end of day late inbound A/C resulted in a lengthy wait etc.

Having allowed the obligatory 12 months to elapse to let the Blindingly Arrogant team iron out initial teething I decided to have another go . OH NO!

For a 1930 departure I arrived at T5 at just before 1900hrs and was at Security at 1857. But then.... NONE shall pass... you have failed CONformance. What I didn't spot nor remember was this ludicrous requirement to clear secuirty 35 mins before departure!

No matter said the nice lady at Security go around the the corner and the folk from BA ( as they are not the same) will re-issue your boarding card - Uh, Uh!

Now I have a few questions?

The gates close 20 mins pre departure and so 15 mins for Security ( 10 used to be a BAA target) is not unrealsitic. So this is a reasonalbe requirement - when the airport is busy. But the airport was not busy - is 35 minutes still reasonable?

At 1900hrs on Saturday night T5 was like a catherdral for the living dead. I could have skipped through Security with my meagre baggage (NONE) in 3 mins flat. As I had done that very morning at a very busy regional airport. At T5 there were more staff than pax. Why is there NO leeway.

But No, no, no. I was two minutes late. By 1857 I had already been off loaded and my seat reallocated THIS IS Irreversible - impossible for me to board due to my failing Conformance i.e. I could not POSSIBLY get through security and get to the gate prior to 1910 for the 1930 departure ( incidentaly the records show that the flight left late due to ATC! (But that's not a recognised BA delay, nor is weather, or techincal problems with the Aircraft. A BA delay is caused either by pax not turning up or ..... well I'm not sure what because when one of the crews had to be changed when they went out of hours we were told that wasn't a delay so, I guess delays are caused by pax. Hence, Conformance!)

Now, here's the interesting bit. IF, I had until 1855 to get to security it follows that I could not be offloaded until after 1855. Lets say 1855 and 1 second. Making the changes and printing the boarding card, etc. let's allow a full 59 seconds making it 1856. That's when I arrived at Departures 1856 and 14 seconds by T5's own digital timepiece. SO, me and my replacement are both making a B line to security. I have my internet printed B card and he/she has a flash new pass courtesy of some polite but essentially useless Passenger services operative. But WAIT.... we're both late! We have both failed the conformance test . Neither of us has made security by the witching hour of 1855 OMG No!

But , instead of my comfortable window seat and reheated chicken ( smells like curry, but its not) etc. ( or dry sandwich and pretzels) I get a £250 hotel bill and and a £129 ticket with another carrier - because , quite frankly - life is too short for F...ffing conformance. Great Idea but...keep it simple stupid.

I'm sorry, but T5 is a temple to stupidity. In the past 7 years I can count on the fingers of my left hand those flights that have actually left on time. OK they all say they do , but they don't or they do then you Q for hours behind everyone else and 'make up a bit of time'. Well of course they make up a bit of time when the scheduled time for the flight has gone from 1 hr 10 minutes to 1 hr 35 minutes ! But, that's not my point. My point is that I have seldom, and not in recent memory, ever delayed , caused to be delayed or experienced a delay due to the non arrival of a passenger ( and this was PRE conformance). And, where this has happened we were already going to be late for other reasons.

I just don't accept that operating a system with margins of safety layered one upon the next is necessary to achieve punctuality ( which is my biggest criticism of BA) at which they are abysmal. If you have Conformance then why do you also need to close the Gate 20 before departure? I once flew for LHR and the gate was closed 25 before the A/C had arrived.

The truth is it is another con which will catch and fleece the unwary. Either into arriving ludicrously early - not a luxury I have. Or, pay for fasttrack - now there's and cool way to waste money! Or, by having to upgrade to a flexible fare because you have been bumped for failing conformance.

No -one at BA was available for comment. Interestingly whilst I has going through this frustrating ordeal the bloke next to me was tearing into Willie Walsh on his mobile - apprarently, he even used to work for BA and was tripped up by this cunning ploy. He told me his call made no difference!

Am I cross? Well no! I have learnt some new things.

BMI are every bit as good as BA on domestic routes. They are MORE punctual, they do not operate out of T5. Their ticketing, check-in and handling staff smile a lot and and are really friendly. And, there loyaly scheme is every bit as generous as BA's. So, a big thank you to BA for giving me the motivation to try the opposition! I had a good night's sleep and was home in time to walk the dog before breakfast - bliss. Yes it cost me a lot more but hell, it was worth it!

So, if you have to do the heathrow thing. Maybe just avoid T5 - its the world's least favourite airport terminal! ( well, mine anyway)

[Carnage Matey!]

The truth is it is another con which will catch and fleece the unwary

....unless they read the great big signs posted everywhere in T5 that say you must be through conformance by 35 mins before departure.

PS You might want to have a look at at the comparative punctuality statistics for bmi and BA at LHR. You might see why bmi have axed all their "Heathrows most punctual airline" adverts.

[Munnyspinner]

Exactly how many of these signs are there between Heathrow express station, the lifts and the departure area that would have made any difference? I still think 35 minutes to board a flight is overly generous even at peak times and have always been able to do it quicker in the past. My point is that there is NO leeway and that if you are cutting it fine, as I was, then it's not a question of being late at the gate but of not getting through security. The arbitrary 35 minutes one size fits all is surely based on worst case and , at peak times it is sensible.

If you refer to BA standard terms and conditions and their specific information re T5B. The conditions state that pax meet the following criteria

1. Check in deadline( for first flight) at T5 this closes 45 before deprature - I was checked in and had been for 24 hours!
2.Complete check in process - i.e you have a boarding pass. I had a boarding pass.
3. Arrive at the boarding gate on time - well I would have if BA hadn't barred my progress. Access to secuirty denied!

There is NO specific reference to Security screening. This is administered not by BA staff but an external contractor. As I was running only 2 minutes behind schedule I can see no reason that I wouldn't have made the gate by the cut off. 20 before departure. Clearly, whoever was given my seat at 1856 must have made it too.
I've just had a look at the BA live flight departures which I just don't believe. Not least that a colleague has been delyed getting to Geneva this morning and she said it was because the BA flight left late - well, not if you believe BA. It's down as an on time departure. Don't trust any business that produces its own reliability stats!

All in all , I found the BMI experiece refreshing and more positive than the Bl**dy Arrogant approach. If you take out the T5 conformance requirements I am giving myself a potential 15 extra to clear secuity and get to the gate, simply by avoiding T5. The Hex journey is shorter and you don't have to ascend the labyrinth to get through secuirty only to decend into the bowels of the building to get to departure. T5 , it s like crossing the f**king alps. Its all up to check in and departures and then all down to get on the flight. I've been to some crazy airports but when you look at the amount of wasted airspace inside that building you do wonder what recreational drugs were in use when BAA and BA got together in its design. No wonder it cost what it did.

Rant over

I would commend BMI to anyone disgruntled at all with BA.

[groundbum]

I think anybody these days rolling into a major capital city terminal 35 minutes before they expect a planes wheels to be moving (and I'm guessing the OP is one of those who expects the wheels to be moving +/- 2 seconds of departure time and will be looking at their watch theatrically when this isn't happening) isn't really on the same planet as the other 3bn or so inhabitants of earth.

I would really try and understand the world doesn't revolve your needs and sadly air travel is now like bus travel. Sir won't get Sir's jacket taken off him by his stewardess and neatly shown to his seat where a cold aperitif awaits. I'n guess Sir was too important to get to the airport early enough due to important meetings with important people, and was too important to read down to the bottom of his email to see the fine print!

So, get on, get to the airport well early, relax, and life will be easier. Don't like it, get a job where you don't travel. And holiday in Cornwall.

G

[GroundedSLF]

Sorry -no sympathy from me for being too late.

The information about needing to be through security 35 mins before flight departure is shown clearly (in bold font) in the "check in options" of BA.com, as well as on the boarding pass that you printed out.

The reasson that all airlines have cut off points is so that everybody knows the score - what you seem to be suggesting is several different times, depending on circumstance...how about:

35 minutes before when its "busy" - who determins what "busy" is by the way?

30 minutes if its just a bit busy

25 minutes if its quiet

20 minutes if you havent got luggage and its busy

15 minutes if you havent got luggage and its not too busy

etc, etc

The point is that you should have read the requirements and made your flight booking/meeting times around those - especially as you were taking the Heathrow Express - so more potential for delays.

Take responsability for your own actions and stop blaming "the system" for your own late arrival

Not a banker by any chance are you?

[radeng]

Having a nasty suspicious mind, I always try to get to the airport a minimum of 2 hours beforehand. Doesn't always work, of course, but the aim generally allows for motorway problems. Not always - one Monday, I allowed 2-1/2 hours to get to Gatwick to arrive 2 hours early. I arrived at check in 20 minutes before departure. It so happened that my flight had been cancelled anyway!

What can be a problem at T5 is that you see the board announce 'go to gate', the gate is 10 or 11, and you're in the south lounge. By the time you get to gate, you're amongst the last to board, and on occasion, they;re even calling for you. That's less than FIVE minutes after it the 'go to gate' flashes up!

Bit of a lack of co-ordination somewhere there, I think.

[Curious Pax]

Used to work at an office 5 minutes taxi ride from MAN, so usual practice when flying was to park in the company car park and get a pre-arranged cab. To cut a long story short this process failed one morning, and so my ride finally departed from work at 0630 for an 0645 departure (this was before online/kiosk check in was invented - about 15 years ago IIRC. The flight departed on time with me on it - coincidentally it was BA.

I suspect that might not happen nowadays....

[Munnyspinner]

Actually 35 minutes is plenty of time. Particularly on a Saturday night at 1900hrs.

I fly frequently and I my problem with T5 is that you get bumped even before you're actually late at the gate. They just assume you will be!

Incidentally in 10 years of travelling (often 2 or 3 flights per week )I have missed 2 flights due to lateness - on neither occasion did that delay the flight. ( hand baggage only)

However you look at this 35 minutes is the extra that has to be added to the journey time. Over a year that's a lot of time I would prefer NOT to spend at T5 airside. I love travelling on business - the answer is to avoid T5 and BA - easy!

The T5 conformance regime is unique in my experience. Essentially you get barred from trying to catch up when you find yourself late - irrespective of how busy security is. Look, 2 hours is find for a long haul flight but as my average flight time is usually 1-1.5 hours adding 35 minutes to the journey is sometimes 50% of flight time. Add in what I would usually allow, say 20 mins safety time pre conformance cut off that's doubling the journey time. For what?

I suspect the reason for conformance isn't really punctuality but to force pax to spend an extra 35 minutes in the shopping arcade BAA call T5. If that wasn't that case they would allow fast track pax to eneter secruity at any time. Conformance applies equally to all pax so if you fast track you simply (in theory) move airside quicker - it doesn't reduce the dead time from secuirty to gate.

I just don't see it as an equitable system for the pax.

[Skipness One Echo]

The reason they insist on 35 minutes from Security is that many flights departs from T5B and require a one way transit link. It is far from straightforward to get a departing passenger back from the T5B without an escort. You cannot simply reboard the transit as you are then mingling with arriving passengers.

Munnyspinner I have little sympathy as the deadline was clearly marked in any booking confrimation I have ever receieved from them. Perhaps if you paid more effort to reading than ranting you would get on better. As for BMI, they go from bad to worse in my view.

[Carnage Matey!]

You're not adding 35 minutes to your journey time. You yourself stated you arrived at T5 just before 1900 for a 1930 flight. If you normally find yourself at the airport 30 minutes before departure then getting yourself there 35 minutes before departure is no great shakes. Thats a piddling 5 minutes extra. Frankly I don't think anyone is too busy that they can't get to an airport 5 minutes earlier.

[Munnyspinner]

Yes, it is printed on the boarding card but,as I have been able to avoid T5 for the past 12 months the significance of the time in a box at the bottom of the sheet wasn't particularly clear. Departure and gate closure are two absolute deadlines that I would expect to meet. and 30 minutes was more than enought time to do that on Saturday.

Why would there be an issue with a security cleared (clean pax) mingling with arriving passengers, if they both have to exit in the same place? Usually the exit routes involve a series of one way 'gates' after passing each you can't backtrack. Domestic and international have difference regimes at differnt airports but, as for staff, why would any pax need to be escorted?

At the scottish Airports and MAN, LGW and A number of european airports 'clean' pax can exit from departures then re-enter the system at security to be screened again. At LGW BAA track you with photo ID. You can go in and out after you get to the departure gates - as if you were an arriving passenger. Where international and domestic depature lounges are combined, all departing pax have the same status and may or may not mingle with inbound domestic pax- however, international arrivals pax are always segregated.

Actually I will spend more time with BMI as they seemed every bit as good as BA whose quality has been on the slide for some time. In fairness I haven't actually paid for a BA flight in 2 years and am still using up BA miles! So I suppose I shouldn't feel too hard done by!

[Munnyspinner]

5 , 15, 25, 30 extra? There is no leeway in the conformance cut off - you now have to second guess the length of the queue pre security to be safe. If you re not scanned in you're off the flight.

It's just unnecessary hassle when flying on a domestic route, I can do without.

[Thunderbug]

But the rules don't apply to Munnyspinner

Free Upgrade (http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/357793-passengers-upgrading-themselves-what-do-you-do-3.html#post4809454)

:hmm:

[PIK3141]

What are you going to do when BMI annoy you ?

[Gonzo]

I've just had a look at the BA live flight departures which I just don't believe. Not least that a colleague has been delyed getting to Geneva this morning and she said it was because the BA flight left late - well, not if you believe BA. It's down as an on time departure. Don't trust any business that produces its own reliability stats!

Entirely explainable: In the UK an 'on time departure' is recorded if the aircraft pushes back on time.

It might have indeed pushed back on time, but had a slot time, and a remote hold might have been arranged, and so it held on the tarmac at LHR until the slot time, thus it took off late.

Still officially an 'on time departure'.

[Thunderbug]

Munnyspinner

Are you sure your colleague was flying with BA to GVA?

I've checked..... of the 8 flights to GVA from LHR yesterday (23rd March) only one arrived late. It departed 15min late due to the aircraft arriving in late from its previous flight. BA.com correctly indicates that it was 15min late on departure.

The only other delay was a 3 minute delay due to ground congestion at the terminal - but it was 12 mins early at the terminal in GVA.

P.S. The CAA says that a departure within 15min of Schedule is "ontime" for their stats.



Note to self: Stop feeding the troll!

[13 please]

I'm intrigued as to how you know whether the terminal is "like a cathedral for the living dead", or as busy as Picadilly Circus before you even get there..!!:suspect:

You have no idea what's going on at the Terminal, or do you..?..:hmm:

Chill, you'll give yourself a heart attack..!

[montag]

A few years ago I was delayed by a fatal collision on the M40 and arrived at a BA check in desk seven minutes before scheduled departure. I made it onto the flight. I don't know if we left on time but we didn't arrive significantly late. That was BA at its best.

If Munnyspinner could have flown without delaying the flight, but was offloaded merely as punishment for failing conformance by a couple of minutes, that is BA at its worst, and they deserve to lose Munnyspinner's (and others) future business. Sadly for BA, I keep hearing stories like this, and I doubt I am the only one.

[Final 3 Greens]

montag

I don't disagree with your comments about the anecdotal evidence of the high handed attitude of some BA groundstaff BA, as I encountered this in January.

However, to arrive at a major international airport, 30 mins before departure is unrealistic IMHO.

London City, perhaps, London Heathrow dodgy.

[LHR27C]

Munnyspinner

As said by others it's clearly marked at numerous stages of the booking/check-in process. Conformance has proved hugely beneficial to BA's punctuality levels as it means they know 35 mins before departure if they're going to have to offload bags rather than waiting until the gate closes to see who didn't make it. You have to draw the line somewhere. If they decided to cut off at 30 mins they'd be good in your books but someone else who turned up at 29 mins would want to be let through. While it may prove annoying to a few people like you who don't read the instructions, for the majority of passengers who've turned up with a reasonable amount of time to spare it means they can leave on time or even early.

Your claim that bmi is more punctual than BA is wrong, since T5 (and largely due to conformance) BA is now much more punctual. They are also a lot less likely to lose your bag than bmi.

It's up to you who you travel with. If you don't like the conformance just fly bmi. Although the latest bmi wheeze is they're replacing more and more LHR routes with E-135/145s now, so I hope you don't mind cramped spaces...

[BladePilot]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink! Just because folks are held in a 'shopping' area doesn't mean they'll buy anything:rolleyes: I very rarely buy anything at an airport despite being offered so many 'great' deals.

I always aim to arrive at any airport at least 2 hours before departure, the aim is to be walking through the main entrance no less than 1hr 15mins before departure whether I'm using a check-in desk or not. In 30 years of travelling I have only ever missed one flight due to the motorway route being backed-up for miles (peak use time), I learnt my lesson and now use an alternative route, A & B roads, if I travel during that peak usage period.

'Runners' used to be common place years ago indeed I remember easyJet even had a 'Runners' boarding card which worked rather well for those who turned up late (if you could make it to the gate before the aircraft doors were closed you could get on) but it was withdrwan when easyJet realised it was being abused by 'important' businessmen! Since the introduction of additional security requirements, the sheer increase in volume of people travelling and the increase in distances in many airports 'running' a passenger has quietly been abandoned as it should be.

Arriving anywhere for any flight in LHR at STD -30 is being unrealistic, jeez even Linford Christie would be hard pushed to cover the distances and hurdles involved in that time:)

Better Time Management required:=

[montag]

Although the latest bmi wheeze is they're replacing more and more LHR routes with E-135/145s now, so I hope you don't mind cramped spaces..

I like the Embraer 145. Would choose it over a Boeing any day. Just don't bring too much hand luggage. :)

[manintheback]

Narita airport last September. Due to a complete foul up on getting the right train to airport(my fault) I arrived 17 minutes before flight due depart. Expecting to be issued a ticket for next day at best, instead found myself in my seat on the plane with 11 minutes still to go.

More remarkeable, my luggage made it too.

[Glamgirl]

Munny,

I'm glad you've decided to try BMI. At least my colleagues didn't have to deal with such a ranting passenger. Your posts sounds like a child having a tantrum. Grow up, follow the rules because they apply to you too. If you don't want to follow the rules, take the train or bus instead, or do the whole country a favour and drive :}

Gg

[Final 3 Greens]

It's up to you who you travel with. If you don't like the conformance just fly bmi. Although the latest bmi wheeze is they're replacing more and more LHR routes with E-135/145s now, so I hope you don't mind cramped spaces...

I'd take the EMB over a packed BA domestic configuration, any day, specially on the LHS single seat side.

[Final 3 Greens]

Glamgirl

He may be unreasonable, but his money is as good as anyone elses and I find your attitude odd for someone in the industry, who should be pleased to see customers at the moment.

[Glamgirl]

F3G,

The reason I posted what I posted was because I thought this chap's ranting was so ott. No doubt would he (sorry if I got the gender wrong) have taken his frustrations out on ground staff and cabin crew, even though he was in the wrong for not reading the information on his booking. I've had a fair few pax like him on board through the years and there is no reasoning with this kind of person. You end up spending the whole flight trying to please them, make them feel better and get nothing but "abuse" in return.

Yes, we do need passengers, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with unreasonable behaviour. Nothing to do with my attitude towards customer service.

Gg

[Munnyspinner]

Sorry guys, but I'm going to have to apologise to BA.

I've just had a response to my complaint. A full refund and 4500 BA miles as a sorry. No explanation other an error on their part! Ooops!

Should I ask for more?

If it was because someone at BA has been reading this thread - thanks,
you are human.

I still don't agree with conformance!

[Final 3 Greens]

Yes, we do need passengers, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with unreasonable behaviour.

Well, that's your perogative.

Me, I'll take the unreasonable clients so long as they pay in a recession, I have the professional skills to deal with them, even if it is tiresome.

This makes grim reading 'Sick' aviation industry on a flight path to $4.7bn losses, warns IATA - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/5044703/Sick-aviation-industry-on-a-flight-path-to-4.7bn-losses-warns-IATA.html)

[Skipness One Echo]

I am missing something here? You don't make the deadline to get into the lounge and they apologise to you and give you a pile of miles?

Did you forget to mention something?

[747-436]

35 mins is enough for regular travellers, but for some people it is not. So having 35 mins notice to offload someones bags etc from a flight rather than finding out 10 mins before departure helps the flight go on time.

Hence BA has some very good punctuality figures from T5 which in turn is a benefit to the regulars as they are hanging around less for those that can't get from security to the gate in 35 mins.

[montag]

Bet you're on time in future though. :)

[IB4138]

Would help if the 74x series of buses to T5 from Central bus station, were made to run to their timetable, instead of the adhoc basis a that appears to be the norm at the mo. It is easy to lose 30 minutes or more waiting for one at present.

[Munnyspinner]

I have no more detail but did question whether they were a bit previuos in offloading me given that even by the time I got to the desk I was only 2 minutes after the cut off. My inbound flight was overbooked that morning and they were looking for volunteers at £100/head so I do wonder if I had been axed before 1855?

If so, coupled with the fact that I may still qualify as a commercially important passenger, this might explain what is a very welcome U-turn.

I have learnt enough never to look a gift horse etc.

If I ever do fly via T5B I will be careful to avoid this nonsense again but I think, for me LCY will remain my preferred London Gateway.

[Munnyspinner]

So having 35 mins notice to offload someones bags etc from a flight rather than finding out 10 mins before departure helps the flight go on time.


Can I just clarify one point. I was on a short domestic route. The turnaround time at Heathrow is prossibly only 30minutes anyway(?) I had virtually no hand baggage and, bearing in mind I was already checked in with 0 bags and that check in closes 45 before departure, the system can see that there would be no question of bags being offloaded.

Knowing that there were no bags checked in would and should allow some leeway on the 35 min cut off. If I am correct about turnaround it would seem that there could be NO bags actually loaded by 35 pre departure and so they would be offloaded not from the A/c but from the baggage hall. Now, I don't want to start another string here about BA and baggage but...

This information that is available to load controllers and customer services pre flight for each passenger. Had I been on a transfer with baggage then the risk that I would delay the aircraft due to late arrival might be high. Indeed, on the few occasions that I have seen baggage being offloaded it is usually due to transfer pax being lost.

I have accepted culpability for not reading the information carefully enough and will not make this error again. However, it still strikes me that 35 minutes pre departure is quite a long time for a short flight if there are no bags to deal with. But, it is what it is and it won't be changing just becuase it doesn't suit me!

[SLF3b]

The problem with BA (and with Britain in general) is that there is no discretion any more. You have to comply with the minutae of the rules whether they make sense or not. No one is willing to bend them to make life more pleasant.

Why should I show loyalty to a service provider who processes me, rather than treats me as a human being?

T5 and BA are classic examples of a process focused rather than customer focused operation.

[IB4138]

Yes....you are spot on.

Mrs IB is very happy that AGP flights are to transfer to T3.

Getting to T5 by public transport, except by rail from central London is one big nightmare.

[Brown and Alcock]

Well said SLF3B.

I had the misfortune to be one of the first pax to pass through T5 last year. What a chaotic shambles! The joke was that I know from an industry insider that they had been running trials for months before opening yet - BA couldn't get their staff to the right places at the right times because hadn't validated their passes or some such nonsense. Failed conformance?

I would avoid that place like a dose of the trots but I guess the Nigels are happy with their petty rules and regulations. Everyone classed and classified, pigeon holed into to their little system, so that they know where you are, where you're going and when and where you've been - but not a clue who you are. Process for profit.

A mate of mine used to be a beancounter for a chicken processor. His view was that there was actually no difference between running and airline and running his business - except the pax don't actually end wrapped in cling film in a refrigerator!

I have been no fan, and only a customer through necessity, of Blighty Airways since the Ayling era. Before then, I think BA had a deserved reputation but now, they have the same lame air about them as Aeroflot used to have ( actually, I've not flown with Aeroflop for some 10 years! and they might not have changed. ) Look at some of their smaller competitors Emirates and Virgin are two airlines that I think work hard to please the customer and benefit as a result. Are they as profitable per pax? I don't know but, I know where I spend my $.

Sad fact is that you will never convince a bean counter that the customer actually matters until they start voting with their feet. Look at Ryanair - Mr O leery is an absolute horror and the pax love it. If he told them that they would now need to pay double to get back from whichever remote airfield he has dumped them - even if they have a valid ticket - I bet that each and every one of them would be back the following week for the next unfeasibly cheap destination - even if they don't actually know where it is or want to go. The similarity with battery hens keeps coming back to me! Why is this? Is air travel addictive? Are all Ryanair customers submissive masochists? or, do they just like bargain? I suspect the latter - it's so cheap we have to go!

For as long as Ryanair and other predatory Budget beasts roam the earth the days of customer care will remain a thing of luxury. So why would anyone else provide frills if they don't need to?

Does anyone know if BA are more punctual than Ryanair?

[Pax Vobiscum]

Getting to T5 by public transport, except by rail from central London is one big nightmare.
Sorry, IB4138, I don't agree. If, like me, you're usually approaching from the M25, T4 & T5 are preferable to the other terminals because they avoid the M4 and the spur, which is just one more risk of congestion. If you're arriving at LHR down the M4 (e.g. from central London), of course, the opposite is the case.
If you're aiming to arrive during the rush hours, you're probably stuffed either way and then rail does look attractive, but it's not an option for me :{

[IB4138]

By PUBLIC TRANSPORT...not by car!:ugh:

Try getting to T5 from the west by bus ...Slough, Uxbridge, Beaconsfield, Watford...etc. Whilst there are a few services that go to T5, they visit the central bus station first. A central bus station to T5 shuttle is required, run on a reliable, frequent, timetable.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Nobody is going to satisfy munnyspinner - he's three parts of the way to an early heart attack, poor chap.

[Skipness One Echo]

Why use the bus to get from the Central Area when the Tube runs that way too?

Munnyspinner I can't believe you have flown so much and think BA can do a 30 minute turn at Heathrow? The RJ100s at LCY are on a 35 minute turn, the 757s at GLA were 45 mins and I believe the rough time at LHR is about an hour.

[747-436]

Would help if the 74x series of buses to T5 from Central bus station, were made to run to their timetable, instead of the adhoc basis a that appears to be the norm at the mo. It is easy to lose 30 minutes or more waiting for one at present.

You have the tube and Heathrow express (Which is free) between the central area and T5

[Munnyspinner]

Heathrow Director

I'm very satisfied thanks. I did get my money back and some freebies which I will use to avoid T5 in the future.

Its such a pity that the terminal is so stress inducing - when others aren't. ;)

[Munnyspinner]

Perhaps I'm just thinking about all the time I used to spend at T1 watching late inbound A/C have failry speedy turnarounds. The RJs at LCY do turnaround pretty quickly and I assume you mean brakes on to brakes off when in fact my 30 was pax off to pax on.

[Brown and Alcock]

You must be a f**k Banker to be so anal about missing a flight when it was your own effing fault. Kinda follows doesn't it - you make a big cods of everything then get a pile of compensation! Any relation to Fred the invisible?

[ProM]

I am no great fan of T5, its layout is appalling. But the conformance idea makes sense to me.

Too many times have I been on a plane that has been delayed whilst they try and track down the last passenger who is missing and then offload his luggage.

Who should suffer - the person who is late or the hundreds who made it on time?

As for discretion - in this case it is better to have a clear rule that everyone understands.

[TightSlot]

Munnyspinner - was this one of the flights where you occupied a First/Business seat that you had not paid for, as you so discuss so frankly on the other thread in CC (http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/357793-passengers-upgrading-themselves-what-do-you-do-2.html#post4809454)?

I'm curious: You mentioned your possible CIP status earlier. You really must be terribly important what with self appointed free upgrades and then refunds and freebies for your own errors - Frankly, I'm surprised that you don't have routine access to an executive jet, thereby avoiding all of these unpleasant restrictions?

[ProM]

:rofl @ TightSlot

You are right. I bet he needs to make mobile phone calls from the plane as well. Its OK when someone important does it

[Munnyspinner]

Sometimes you have to play the system!

I have never delayed a flight as I travel light.

If I am travelling on freebies (my money!) then any upgrade is a welcome addition to the trip. If I'm on business (earning freebies) then I am paying for the extras - hence CIP status. Either way it doesn't actually cost more to convey a first class pax or an empty seat in first compared to economy. More fool those that don't check!;)

Exec jet travel is convenient but not cost effective over very short distances - nor is it much quicker - unless you are flying through Heathrow!

[ProM]

Either way it doesn't actually cost more to convey a first class pax or an empty seat in first compared to economy


I wonder if your limited understanding of micro-economics and relaxed attitudes to fraud/theft apply to your own company?

[GroundedSLF]

I used to work in travel booking business travellers on their trips.

It appears that moneyspinner conforms to type in this regard:

Travelling on business.
Thinks he is VERY important business man, the world will stop unless he gets to a meeting, has to have his exact seat preferance, why arent everybody falling over themselves to help him when he misses a flight due to his own stupidity, etc, etc...

Travelling on holiday.
Wont pay a penny of his own money - uses the points accumulated on his business trips.

For this reason I always tried to get the companies I dealt with to sign up to a loyalty program where the company was rewarded rather than the traveller.

Fly with who you want - just have a little concideration to all the hard working and organised people who manage to read the conditions and turn up on time, and the poor souls who are just trying to do their jobs while working in sometimes difficult conditions both in the airport and in the air.

[Munnyspinner]

If everyone is travelling in the same aluminum tube why does seat 4a , in front of the curtain COST any more to fly than seat 5a, behind the curtain. It does not. However, It does generate a higher potential return.

If the seat is unoccupied the revenue is zero. If a passenger who has paid for a seat, but not a premium seat, occupies seat 4a then the revenue to the airlinefor the flight is the same. Seat 4a was empty and was therefore not revenue generating. There is no lost opportunity cost as, by the time the flight is loaded, all occupied seats are sold. If a seat is vacant its revenue generating potential is lost and its failure to be occupied has already 'cost' the airline money to move the empty seat from A to B.

Where pax migrate from economy to premium, the number of passengers remains the same, any food consumed was already on board and would have been wasted ( or consumed by CC) and therefore the operational cost ( A/C costs, fuel, staff and associated costs) are the same ( assuming flight catering doesn't refund for unused, out of date meals ( they might sell them to BA!)

Freeloading by self upgrade doesn't actually cost the airline directly unless there are valuable additional services provided - the seats are vacant and are therefore not revenue generating. Indeed, such behaviour is only possible where CC are expecting numbers in premium class which tally with actuals on the flight. Equally, as they get a manifest for each flight they know, or should know, where everyone is sitting or should be sitting.

So Tightshot and others should perhaps be a little less self righteous - when in fact he/she is only drawing attention to the ineptitude, complacency or conspiracy of CC colleagues.

In microeconomic terms I would suggest the following as a means to address this 'problem' - auction.

After boarding, simply auction the premium class seats that remain unoccupied and for which services( food, drinks, complimentary ego massage etc.) are available. Sell to the highest bidder and generate additional revenue from the flight. You will appreciate why airlines don't actually do this - it would only demonstrate to those that have already paid a premium that they had most probably wasted their money and they would be very unlikley to repeat the exercise.

I have been in the front and in the back and to be honest -on short haul it pretty much the same wherever you sit. Long haul - now that is different!

[Munnyspinner]

Oh, and another thing.

I own a company that does exactly as Grounded SLF suggests !

It's one of the perks!

[TightSlot]

Where's Rainboe when you need him?

[GroundedSLF]

Cant believe that you actually admit its wrong - but continue anyway.

Would you also stay in a hotel without paying - if the room was empty, I guess you see no reason why not - same logic that you used earlier - empty room / empty aircraft seat - same differance right?

You must be a real pleasure to work for.

[Final 3 Greens]

Grounded SLF

On the other hand, a large European airline once sold me a business class seat, with the advertised promise that 'we always keep the centre seat free', then didn't and refused a refund.

Reading the frequent flyer forum for that airline, this apparently happens quite regularly.

So, the airline world is not without sin, in the respect of freeloading, either.

[TightSlot]

F3G - Surely, you can thereby use anything to justify anything, on that basis? The two episodes are essentially unrelated. I could, in theory, demand the use of the First Class Lounge because the airline had lost my bag on a previous flight, or failed to provide a vegetarian meal, or had not honored my seat request. The airline might choose to offer those facilities to me by way of apology, but I would have no right to take them.

There is no suggestion made by any sensible person that any airline is without sin - far from it! However, linkage cannot be assigned to unrelated events as a means to justify dishonest behavior. Munnyspinner's behavior is identical to that of a cheap and common little thief, as detained by the dozen on any Saturday morning High Street sweep - he simply has sufficient education to attempt to cloud matters with pseudo-legal BS and an inflated sense of self-worth that allows him to believe that compliance is for lesser people. The most fascinating aspect, is the arrogance that permits his (it cannot surely be a female) continued posting on the subject with neither remorse nor the remotest understanding of how his character might be perceived - not only here, but in the Cabin Crew forum as well. I have to assume, with such a cocktail of character traits that he is a politician?

[Final 3 Greens]

Tightslot

Firstly, I am not justifying anyone's behaviour.

But how would you describe an airline who advertise and charge for a premium service, supply a different and inferior service and then walk away?

The common thread, to my mind, is that a payment made for a class of travel should purchase that class of travel, as described.

If Munnyspinner is wrong, then so is the airline who cheated me.

[Brown and Alcock]

Tightslot,

I see the CC thread has been closed but I think the last post ( we wish) from Munnyspinner did concede that sitting in a business class seat without the correct ticket would constitute fraud ( his words). I think that is an admission of guilt and his first posting on that forum did start with a confession.

I can see that he/she has stirred up a bit of a hornets nest but I think it has also raised some pretty good points.

I think the LCC's have changed the face of travel. Single class, low cost quick turnaround no frills - some would say the best thing since cheap sliced white bread. May be they have a point. If by the addition of a curtain some airlines decree that the seats are more valuable, where there is in fact little or no tangible difference, should we be surprised that one or two people want to challenge this?

I am one of the average punters who travels as frequently as money will allow but cannot afford the luxury of first or business class. I have had the priviledge of sitting next to the curtain on a couple of occasions and cannot see why there is any 'premium' attached to short haul ( less than 3 hours) flights.

Flying with BA to Madrid from Manchester ( actually it may have been a GB codeshare) I arrived into MAN on a BAe146 and left on an identical aircraft. On the first flight I sat in row 2 which was domestic and there curtain was stowed. The second flight was international and it was just behind the curtain in row 5 or 6.As far as I could see there was no difference in seat pitch. Neither flight was full and the middle seat was unoccupied next to me on both legs. As far as I could see the only difference between my flight and for those in business was a meal served in two parts. I expect their cost was twice what I paid ( perhaps more).

If I sound like the boy who says the emperor ain't wearing no strides then I think this is exactly what I am saying. Small wonder, if there is little or no product differentiation that some people will simply feel that it's right to take without asking - this doesn't make it right, just understandable!

I read Munnyspinners post with some puzzlement, is he/she correct no-one has been prosecuted for this. Shops generally have a zero tolerance approach to sholifting surely its time airlines did the same?

Should CC not check seating arrangements as A/C trim could be affected if people sit in blocked out seats - is this not true?

[Rainboe]

Where's Rainboe when you need him?
I'd happily join the thread, but I don't know what 'conformance' means! Need someone intelligent to explain.

Where's Draper when you need him?

[GroundedSLF]

Conformance is simply the fact that BA require you (at T5) to have completed all your "bits" and be through security at least 35 minutes before your flight departure time - if you arrive at security with less time than this, you are not allowed to proceed through security. The below is taken from the BA website:
Going through security

Please allow yourself plenty of time to go through airport security checks.

Please note - if you are travelling from London Heathrow Terminal 5 you must pass through check-in and security at least 35 minutes before your flight departs.

Increased security at most airports means that the screening of hand baggage and body checks can take longer, particularly at busy times.

Boarding the aircraft


Please have your boarding pass and passport (plus any other travel documents like visas etc.) readily available when boarding at the gate.
You will need to show your boarding pass to the cabin crew when you board the aircraft.
If you arrive at the boarding gate after the gate has closed you will not be able to board the flight.Please note - if you are travelling from London Heathrow Terminal 5 you must be at the boarding gate at least 20 minutes before your flight departs.

[Skipness One Echo]

For the avoidance of doubt, it's the joining the queue part where you get your boarding card checked and your photo taken if flying domestically. Once past that point you are OK. There are actually no gate rooms at Heathrow so the 20 minute cut off at the gate is a guide rather than a real cut off. I suspect arriving at -19 you'd be fine. Not so in presenting your boarding card at security.

[Munnyspinner]

S1e,

Duff info again. It is, or must be, the checking of your boarding pass - the actual act must be started by -35. The joining of a Q would seem to be reasonable but, as I found to my cost, a minute or so delay means the difference between flying and not flying. Having to wait for some dunderhead to complete the process of retreiving his boarding card and showing it to security counts for nothing, apparently.

I would remind you of the T&C from BA " pass THROUGH" security. I'm prepared to accept this means the spanish ladies with the G4 uniforms that work for BA not BAA. If you haven't presented yourself and relevant documentation by -35 get your self quickly to T1 for the next BMI flight!:ok:

The reason that -35 is the key number is that BA assume 15 to get to the gate. Technically, and this was the reason given to me if you can't clear security , you can't then get to the gate by -20 and thus you will have failed the boarding procedure. I know you are correct, but its just not logical. The fact I could get from security to gate in 7 mins flat was irrelevant becuase I was 2 minutes late at security. Even allowing me 13 minutes to make the journey I would still have made the gate by -20. You just don't get a chance!

[Skipness One Echo]

I MEANT JOINING THE QUEUE for security. The queue for the machine, the queue to get friskded. That would be the queue after you have the boarding pass check, when you join the queue for security. OK arguably wasn't 100% clear but for the avoidance of doubt, once your past the man checking boarding cards and in the queue to be screened you have made compliance.

[Munnyspinner]

So what happens if it then takes more than 15 minutes to PASS through the Queue? You're busted and you need to be escorted out? Seems pretty arbitrary to me!