Emirates Incident at Melbourne.

[flyingfox]

An Emirate A340 was involved in a serious incident on take off out of Melbourne Australia last night. See thread on Pprune.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/366754-ek407-tailstrike-ml.html

[aussiepax]

see thread in rumours and news
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/366754-ek407-tailstrike-ml-5.html

[WhoFlungDung]

This is probably the most serious incident to occur in Australia for a long time. A heavily laden (pax and fuel) wide body aircraft is still on the ground at the upwind end of a 12000ft runway, suffers a tail strike during rotation, takes out part of the ILS and some lighting. As someone else said, this is spine chilling. If indeed the crew were flown out of Australia within hours of the event, then someone should be asking some very serious questions. :(

[IFF]

EMIRATES Airlines has confirmed that the pilot and co-pilot in charge of the Airbus A345 that was damaged when it scraped its tail on takeoff from Melbourne on March 20 have resigned.

Last paragraph of totally unrelated story

Qantas takes on Singapore Airlines by slashing $1000 off a return ticket to London | Travel News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,28318,25287298-5014090,00.html)

[somniferous]

Resigned or jumped before pushed.... probably the same thing really.

Does anyone know what nationality they are?

[blackbandit]

Well they wouldn't be locals, they would get a medal for saving the aircraft and pax!

[distracted cockroach]

Is the aircraft still in Melbourne? Looked for it the other day and couldn't see it anywhere.

[Dr Zoydberg]

The aircraft is currently in the John Holland hanger.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Investigation: AO-2009-012 - Tailstrike and runway overrun - Airbus A340-541, A6-ERG, Melbourne Airport, Victoria, 20 March 2009 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2009/aair/ao-2009-012.aspx)

UTR

[Capn Bloggs]

Anybody else find the links in the PDF are farked? For example, Analysis > Summary takes me to the cover page.

[breakfastburrito]

Bloggs, I was able to Right Click > Save As on the pdf link to the final report. Here's an alternate link if you still can't get it:AO-2009-012 (http://www.mediafire.com/?8fbq8v3uv0djx39)

[Capn Bloggs]

BB, thanks, still no good. I should have said I'm referring to the bookmark links.

[neville_nobody]

Interesting to note that fatigue was mentioned in that Herald Sun article one of the pilots did after the incident claiming he had difficulty sleeping and had done alot of flying leading up to the accident however the ATSB reports says that fatigue was not a contributing factor.

From the ATSB report:

Consistent with the results from the operator’s examination of the operating crew’s fatigue, the location of both operational crew members’ effectiveness towards the top of the Fatigue Avoidance Scheduling Tool effectiveness range indicated that they were not significantly impaired by fatigue at the time of the accident.

That assessment was also supported by the crew providing data that indicated they both had probably obtained sufficient rest during their layover in Melbourne. The layover time was greater than 36 hours and the captain and first officer reported that they did not feel unusually fatigued when they commenced their duty period.

The operating captain reported having 6 hours sleep in the 24 hours prior to the occurrence and 16 hours sleep in the 48 hours prior to the occurrence. The operating first officer reported having 8 hours sleep in the previous 24 hours and 12 hours sleep in the previous 48 hours.

This is what was said in the Herald Sun article:
n multiple interviews conducted with the Sunday Herald Sun over a period of weeks, the pilot who has left Dubai with his family and returned to his home country in Europe also revealed: HE had slept for only 3 1/2 hours in the 24 hours before the flight taking off on March 20. THE brush with death upset him so badly he had not slept for four days after the accident.

Not quite sure if I would classify 6 hours rest in the previous 24 as 'adequate' rest. However it may be the case they he didn't want to be to well rested before departure as he was taking the first break.

[EK_Bus Driver]

No Nev, the ULR "Rest Plan" in the OM-C calls for the Relief Crew to be on first break. The Operating Crew have to wait about 6 hours, so it's assumed they would have been "well rested". Have done that pairing many times both as Relief and Operating, I have been unable to get what I consider proper rest before the Flight despite following the recommended Rest Strategy on more than a few occasions, so I know how he felt. Before anyone says they should have gone 'sick'. There is no point, also no point in filing an A.S.R. as it falls on deaf ears in the "Bouncy Castle". Retribution and punitive action will be the only response. Not surprising as this Company is investing heavily in sponsored Corporate events and employing lots of Aussies. More Political than I imagined. If you don't believe me... ask any EK Pilot how they feel about fatigue, previous and current Rostering / Leave allocation practices.

Not a fatigue issue?? The Crew Members Resigned???

My Ar%e! :yuk:

[framer]

Aviation safety investigations & reports

Investigation title
Flight planning - Airbus A380, VH-OQE, Los Angeles International Airport, USA, 8 October 2011





Summary


The aircraft took off without the correct speeds programmed into the flight management computer.
The investigation is continuing.


Anyone know if this is another example of incorrect performance data getting through the routine SOP cross checks of several crew? Or is it more likely hat the loadsheet was wrong so therefore the calculated speeds were wrong?
If it is the former it makes me wonder if we get 50 close calls for every tailstrike/ overrun?

[KRUSTY 34]

You know EK_Bus Driver, if what you say is true re: fatigue, then with regard to those doing the investigating I can draw but one of 2 conclusions.....

They are incompetant. Or,

They are corrupt! :sad:

[EK_Bus Driver]

Yeh I hear ya Krusty. I wonder if the ATSB are getting the "full" picture from our Clowns (no pun intended) in head office in DXB. For example a Temporary Revision that was issued on LPC performance AFTER the "Incident" (read - near disaster!), was very subtly backdated to make it effective, not many of our bleary eyed drivers picked up on it. I'm not implying ATSB are incompetent, I know some ex Mil Colleagues in there that are great guys.

I still stand firm on Fatigue as a contributing factor. It is a huge problem in this Airline.

Cheers

[gobbledock]

Yeah, and the crew members 'resigned' Asian style - Caught a flight home from BNE the next night, when they arrived at H/O their 'resignation letters' had been drafted for them which they had to sign, and their families had already been moved out of EK accomodation...nice work. Did somebody forget to teach EK the benefits of a 'just culture'?

[EK_Bus Driver]

You are correct Gobbledock. Had they not "resigned", certain threats were made in a rather assertive manner, such as loss of Provident Scheme for one. The main "aggressor" (a certain talking Horse) has since left the Company to improve his Golf Handicap.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks EK_Bus Driver. I did cast a wide net regarding the ATSB, but it makes me mad when the "Authorities" in this country fail to get it right, for whatever the reason. I know the ATSB is only manadated to investigate, but where's CASA in all of this? Oh that's right, CASA (in this case it seems) are TOOTHLESS! And do you know why? Because they choose to be. Australia came to within a bee's whisker of what would have been it's greatest airline disaster, and what have CASA done? ZIP! I mean Good God Almighty. Any responsible regulator would've banned EK from flying into OZ untill a full and transparent investigation was done.

You only need to look at the outcome of the Senate inquiry to see the smoking gun of incompetance and corruption. The last thing these guys want is an investigation into any of the fatigue management systems. Systems that are only in place because they favour the selected airline operators. CAO 48 may not be perfect, but it does at least provide protection. Protection that has been earned (sometimes in blood) over decades of operations. CASA's relationship with the "Big End of Town" is nothing short of scandalous, and it only goes to highlight CASA's failure to act on the latent failures in the system. Failures that they, as an organisation, have allowed to develope! :ugh:

As gobbledock keeps saying... TICK TOCK! :sad:

[gobbledock]

Two years ago CASA went into a panick when the FAA audited them. The FAA were within an inch of downgrading Australia's safety rating. And why? It was all over one Australian operator who had repeated 'incidents' and fly's very regularly to the USA.... I will let you work that out for yourselves.
So, we have the EK incident. Relevance? Well as has been mentioned, the ATSB is an investigator. It does not and cannot action punitive measures, only the limp wristed patsies at Fort Fumble can do that.
And Fort Fumble has done what about this matter? Hmmmmm exactly. Sat on it's fat arses as usual.
Interesting how the FAA and CASA react mightily different when an elevated risk is apparent ey? The EK incident was and still is of extreme concern. A 1.4 second difference between life and a burning death for hundreds. Raised were issues or potential contributing factors of fatigue, training, flight deck ergonomics, corporate organisational pressures and as has been raised an airline who lacked a just culture.
And Fort Fumbles does.........Nothing, as usual. Not a god damn thing.
This would have to be one of the worst regulatory bodies ever. Shame shame shame.

Tick tock

[neville_nobody]

The FAA were investigating Emirates over fatigue issues at one stage, but I am not sure what came of that.

Maybe it should be put to the ATSB how they came to the conclusion that fatigue was not an issue when the newspaper article suggests otherwise, which contains direct quotes from the pilot.

Did the ATSB ever actually interview the pilots one on one?

[EK_Bus Driver]

I have flown with Americans and Brits who were queried by their relevant Authorities (FAA / UK CAA) regarding their Logbook hours (cumulative) when they renewed their Licenses back home. Not sure of the outcome, but plenty of rumours about it this end as well. As Krusty & Gobbledock alluded to; CASA's incompetence and the lack of authority of the ATSB is the problem. Probably the same in the US/UK?? The "Big end of Town" seems to get away with it :mad:

[ernestkgann]

CASA has no valid excuse for not knowing what the fatigue levels at Emirates are and whether or not they have a 'just' culture at EK as they have employed two ex Emirates trainers and checkers recently.

[EK_Bus Driver]

They also employed the Head of Aviation Medical a few years ago. He should have plenty of 'Dirt' on them. The silence is deafening! :ugh:

[fl610]

Smoking holes is the only thing that will get their attention! :rolleyes: :yuk: :ugh:

[1a sound asleep]

ATSB video of A340-500 tailstrike at Melbourne - YouTube

[Capn Bloggs]

Lineup Allowance?

[KRUSTY 34]

Nothing could replace the effect of actually being there, but man! That's very disturbing.

[Wally Mk2]

Amazing that the PF didn't select TOGA a LOT earlier as vid shows TOGA was achieved a little over a 100 meters to run. By then am sure they where squirming in their seats!
They where damn lucky!!!In fact we all where as if that event had have ended in a fiery mess off the end of the rwy then am sure lots of pressure would have been put on the industry in general.


Wmk2

[KRUSTY 34]

I once made the mistake of sitting a Sim check when fatigued. In hindsight of course I never should have done it, but it did come as somewhat of a revelation.

Looking at the video Wal', I must admit I had the same thoughts, but when taken in the context of what I now know, it becomes all too apparent. The holes in the cheese came so close to lining up that day.

As disturbing as it all was, what bothers me more, is that the same incompetant/corrupt government department which should have acted in the interests of public safety, and didn't, are still calling the shots! :mad:

[Old but not bold]

Good call Wally, Fatigue is much more incidious than we used to beleive, equivilant or worse than the effects of booze.

Judgment in all areas goes out the window including knowing when you are halfway down the runway and the speed doesn't look right? TOGA time?

There were three seperate tailstrikes in the CCTV and the Black Boxes ended up on the floor of the tailcone.
Clubbing and Kite Surfing in during periods can be a problem???

[Wally Mk2]

'oldie' am sure fatigue played a big part in this almost deadly accident. But thinking back over other possible reasons as to why the crew sat there fat dumb & happy whilst the machine slowly accelerated towards the end of the rwy (& I might add actually rotated still with Flex set before TOGA was selected) is that pilots tend to be the best 'spectators' during the events of an accident or pending accident. I believe that we as pilots who undertake multiple T/off's all our lives & 99% are routine almost putting our feet to sleep but when something like this situation happens the old brain still doesn't get triggered to do something about it in a hurry purely 'cause we are not expecting it.

Mankind can make a 100 A340's etc all identical but you will never get 100 pilots the same, there in lies the real challenge! SOP's, training & all the other tools we throw at a pilot to make him/her safe are only as good as the individuals capabilities at the time.


Wmk2

[Capt Kremin]

Having only ever flown the 330 it is a bit hard to compare, but there are a few clues from this that should have warned the crew that something was amiss. The Flex temp of 74 degrees should have been one of them.

This aircraft was also passing taxiway Echo when the 100 knot call would have been made. To an Aussie airbus pilot, that would have been very much a red flag; maybe not so much for a foreign pilot.

I can only conclude that fatigue may have indeed been a major factor here.

[Kalistan]

Oh you are all so kind..... thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that fatigue was responsible.!!!;););)

[Vel Paar]

Having only ever flown the 330 it is a bit hard to compare, but there are a few clues from this that should have warned the crew that something was amiss. The Flex temp of 74 degrees should have been one of them.


Some 13 odd years ago departing from Istanbul LTBA on a warm summer's day, I mistakenly entered 43 deg. C as our assumed temperature instead of 34 deg. C. It was at almost our maximum AGTOW and my skipper asked me to take off my " shiny metal wings and flush it down the toilet! " He rightly shouted at me at that at almost max AGTOW, a high assumed temperature should have raised red flags. YMML has a much longer runway but an assumed temperature of flex of 74 is glaring red flag. " Contagious " fatigue aside, I guessed the crew must have been really distracted by something else as not to have noticed.