AIPA and JQ

[teresa green]

If you can believe what is printed in todays Australian Newspaper, the AIPA has suddenly decided that the JQ boys and girls are not quite the cowboys (and girls) they loftily called them at the start of JQ's launching. Their attitude was typically QF, surely these poor quality pilots were simply ones that QF rejected, and sat back at waited for the airline to fail, and the aircraft to fall out of the sky like leaves, with such idiots at the end of the prong. Oh dear, look whats happened, not only have they not had a prang, but their pathetic little airline is going gangbusters, and all of a sudden the Sky Gods are starting to bleat, after totally refusing JQ pilots entry into the AIPA at the beginning of JQ'S launch, all of a sudden they are offering a set of steak knives and a free haircut to anyone who wants to join. No I have never flown for JQ but certainly have for QF, and pehaps being a relic from TAA and known QFs attitude to us and AN pilots you can forgive a old man for having a bit of a chuckle. I hope you JQ people tell them to stick it up the proverbial Kybar Pass, you have a good product, you have a good future, build your own airline and leave the Sky Gods to thrash around in theirs, their future is a lot bleaker than yours, believe me.

[KABOY]

The direction was decided by a minority, who ultimately lined their pockets at the majority's expense.

Unfortunately the majority did not act quickly enough to watch their pockets being fleeced!

Politics are about benefitting the minority under the guise of benefitting the majority.:)

[mrs nomer]

TG,

Understand where your'e coming from.

But with the unfolding events at Jetstar over the last week, many more have joined AIPA and there is definitely a more conciliatory approach to the lower ranks.

[noip]

TG,

I understand your bias, however what you post is factually incorrect .....

sigh

N

[-438]

Perhaps if you are a relic of TAA you should realise the benefits of organised Unions i.e. unity.
You should also realise how quickly personel in Unions turn over.
Many of the members of AIPA were still in school (some in primary) when TAA were still flying Australian skys.
The people you hold a grudge against are probably long forgotten.
The sooner pilots stop with their pathetic fighting against each other and start working together, the sooner we can stop this continuous spiteful race to the bottom.
If you've been around aviation long enough to have worked for TAA you should know so called 'Sky Gods' are around in all facets of aviation and are not limited to QF.
Maybe the sooner you retire 'old man' and become a 'Sky God' at your local aero club, the sooner we can look forward to building a new Union of all professional pilots in this country.

[Wingspar]

You're livin' in the past, man! You're hung up on some clown from the sixties, man!

Sorry...first thing that came to mind.

[teresa green]

-438, this is not a personal attack on pilots in QF, it is a attack on the culture that has been encouraged over the last fifty years, long before most of you were born. I was on the committee of the AFAP pre 89' and I well know how unions work, they are a horse designed by a committee, so usually end up looking like a camel. I have no reason to think anything is going to change here. As long as your's and my backsides point to the ground there will be no change until the thinking in QF changes, and it has not. I witnessed first hand in Japan not so long ago when having a few drinks in a bar with a relative who works for JQ and the rest of a JQ crew,we noticed two obvious crew members from Oz standing on their own and looking like they would like to join in the fun, we invited them over, they turned out to be two QF pilots, who by the end of the night stated and I quote " you people are nowhere as bad as we have been told" unquote, at first we thought they were joking, sadly they were not, I hopefully put it down to the grog talking, and hope I am right. By the way I am retired, but after a lifetime in the Airlines, still think I am entitled to a point of view, and sorry, still cannot help but have a chuckle at QF'S discomfort.

[Stubby]

Just quitely, I'm chuckling as well!:}

[golfjet744]

There is a common misconeption amongst older aus aviators that AIPA pilots hate Jetstar pilots. What absolute rubbish.

Most of the guys i work with are smart enough to leave their emotions at the door when it comes to contract negotiations. It is not about picking a team to barrak for. It's about ensuring the future stability of your careers.

There are no winners in this game. It's all about contract negotiation.

The stronger the union the more power it has to negotiate a better contract for you.

[maui]

-438

Throughout the history of aviation in Australia, there is only one organisation that has consistently endeavoured and expressed a desire to represent all pilots. (unity).

There is only one organisation that has ever achieved that ideal.

And there is currently only one organisation that has the structure the constitution and the will, that will allow for the representation of all pilots.

Guess which one.

Maui

[Hugh Mungus]

Hmmmmm let me see..."The Salvation Army"

[Oxidant]

Ho Hum & there we have it again:ugh:
A few people (at last) come to the boards with some common sense, but sadly & all too quickly it goes down hill to the Kindergarden.
Yes, you can see why GD (& his like all over the World) laugh(ed) at you. Pilots are cr*p at negotiating for themselves. The results speak for themselves with the constant decline of terms & conditions.
Unless you get professionals to negotiate, the rot will continue......Sadly it is of your own making, which is why I (& a few others decided on a different career path) negotiate for ourselves & yes, can only blame ourselves if we screw up!

[What The]

Pilots are cr*p at negotiating for themselves

I would hazard a guess to say that the contract that Qantas Longhaul pilots work to would have to be one of, if not the, best contracts available for any carrier worldwide today.

Negotiated by pilots, for pilots.

[WhoFlungDung]

For the past 25 years that I have been a member of AIPA, my T&C have only got better - every year. Even the bloody mindedness of the past few years looks set to be reversed under the new management regime, headed by no other than the previous JQ boss. AIPA? Guess who have the runs on the board. To the dreamers who are still dreaming about winning the war, keep dreaming. Your pissing into the wind. If your serious about your job, join AIPA.

[Going Boeing]

I have to agree with WhoFlungDung. Most of the EBA's have resulted in good payrises as well as many improvements in conditions. The Certified Agreement is a very thick book with good reason - every time a manager tried to "screw pilots", it would be negotiated at the next EBA which would normally result in a clause being inserted in the CA to prevent a repeat.

The new team are genuine blokes who will look after the interests of junior pilots (probably more than senior ones because any changes will have the greatest effect on them) and in the case on QLink and Jetstar pilots, they have the freedom and responsibility to determine their own paths but have the industrial expertise (& connections) of AIPA to give them more clout in their negotiations. From what I've heard (& read), this is a lot better than what the AFAP is offering to the QLink & Jetstar pilots.

[Oxidant]

Guys, I (will not) don't want to get into a slanging match.
But, you are cherry picking here. I was making a Worldwide general comment on our T&C's.(See Cpt Sully elsewere on PPRUNE)
The whole point many here were making, was that conditions were going down with J*, Pac Blue, Rex (Plus all the new Euro. low cost guys) et al paying less.
So, saying "I'm alright Jack" is hardly helping the greater pilot body, when greater unity perhaps would?

[Captain Sherm]

My understanding of pilot industrial history suggests that the whole issue boils down to whether those with the negotiating ability and muscle and patience can get a Scope Clause.....or not. If the union(s) representing the disparate groups of pilots flying aircraft owned by the Qantas Group can get a Scope Clause THEN the issue of a Group wide seniority list might mean something. And it would put a stop to newer and newer subsidiaries being created with ever worse conditions.

If there is no Scope Clause then it will be one group of pilots wanting to cherry pick the others jobs, fighting over an ever-diminishing pool of flight deck seats while for example Qantas 787 (Christchurch) Pty Ltd offers a vast array of Dreamliner jobs based on non-union, non seniority, peasant conditions.

Are those (leaders and members)with the negotiating ability and muscle and patience ready to do something?

[blow.n.gasket]

A scope clause would be great, very much doubt it though.
Whatever happened to the Group opportunity List?
Wasn't that a concept that tried to emulate a claytons type scope clause?

Going Boeing, don't choke on your own rhetoric now mate.
"The new team are genuine blokes who will look after the interests of junior pilots (probably more than senior ones because any changes will have the greatest effect on them"

Is that why most of the executive are A380 pilots ensuring that conditions are just right on that beast. Just look at the angst thats being caused by some of the pay anomolies that this aircraft is raising. Sounds more like Keynesian inspired trickle down economics to me. Genuine blokes hey? Could you explain the current "night of the long knives" that is presently going on in the AIPA office regarding any staff that have been deemed unacceptable to these genuine guys because of what I can only see as being their percieved political allegiances.
The more things change the more they stay the same me thinks!

[Going Boeing]

Blow.n, it seems that you don't know these guys well. Anyone who does, knows that they will put the members ahead of their own interests - especially the junior members who have to endure the consequences of any decisions. The fact that a number of them are currently A380 captains is simply a consequence of the stage of their career. One of them has been on COM since being a junior F/O whilst the other two were elected whilst being junior B767 Captains. Anyone who discredits these fine gentlemen obviously is very emotionally attached to the ARG movement and hasn't accepted the wishes of the majority of members that it was time for a change.

Wrt what's happening in the office, there are very valid reasons for what's going on but it would be inappropriate to discuss them on this forum.

[struggling]

Right on Blown.

While Scope probably is all but impossible to pull off without downing the tools, a Group Opportunity Allocation List (GOAL) is realistically achievable by a union with foresight and determination.

Pity about the imminent departure of AIPA's GM, WoodenEye and others from the AIPA COM. Lost is the clout AIPA used to wield with the Politicians and Qantas Shareholders.

The real test for Team Bazza is not rolling over EBA 7 and accepting 3% pay rises, but ensuring the GOAL is implemented before Qantas is merged into a global mega carrier.

Thank goodness Work Choices is now dead as I don’t think the new team would have the balls to keep the company in check.

[Don Diego]

All of you AIPA supporters might like to consider the following.For over 20 years they were in a comfortable cocoon,they looked after themselves and didn't give a rats about the rest.Then along came you know who?The bunker thought a little ridicule here and there and we will just look down our nose at them and who will want to fly with them??That was never going to work,GD saw to that.In the swamps of aviation the regionals were also growing.Back over in the bunker the CB had been reset and the lights came back on and the writing on the wall could be seen.The whole charade over the past few years has been for one reason and one reason alone,to save their own bacon.The urgency of their posturing will ramp up as the delivery of the "Dreamliner" approaches,this is perhaps why they have now decided to embrace all professional pilots.Time will tell.:ugh:

[max autobrakes]

Sorry Boeing but I'm going to have to side with Blown on this one.

"hasn't accepted the wishes of the majority of members that it was time for a change."

Sorry I must have missed that General Election.
I thought these fine gentlemen came to power through an Executive Election by convincing a majority of Com to vote for them by running a fine political campaign of muck raking and obsfucation yet their election platform was based upon one of transparancy of power.
You're right President Bazza is a fine gentleman ,only it's appearing more and more so every day that when push comes to shove he can't or won't make a decision .
Even though the constitutional power lays with the President it's appearing to some that the real power actually lies in the hands of a few let us say ,company sanctioned individuals.
Here's a hint to anyone out there wanting to negotiate with AIPA, if you want to get Bazza's ear you must first convince "The Stockbroker" who's been running around like the Queen bee, and more importantly the companies rumoured favoured next President, old Capt "DFC with bar and tailscrape" and to a lesser extent, everyones favorite next fleet manager and all round good guy Young Liberal "Jabba the Pontificator".

Don in many ways you are correct, AIPA can only do what it's contitution will allow it to do and the people it can cover.
Who actually saw what's transpiring now back say even 5 years ago.
Well there were a few people but no one took heed.
Believe it or not, AIPA is actually evolving and despite my little dig above ,I believe they are evolving for the better.
Despite whoever is in power at AIPA they have always been fair in the long run despite short term hiccups along the way.
Just look at the Integration of TAA/Australian into Qantas.
Compare that integration document with what the AFAP managed back with the Ansett- EastWest integration, chalk and cheese.
I believe even one of Australia's highest Industrial Judges even referred to AIPA during the court case for JetStar coverage as the quintessential Union.
Even the AFAP are no longer what they once were, they too have evolved. Have they evolved enough since "the dispute" and "the great breakaway" to actually get on with it? That sir is the $64 question.
I know AIPA is willing, if it's taken what's transpiring for AIPA and the Qantas pilots to have "woken them up" so be it ,better late than never.
Because united ,we all stand a chance ,divided we all most certainly will be worse off if we continue to allow airline management to play one pilot group off against another.As you rightly pointed out ,even the Qantas pilots have finally woken up to this.

In summation I believe the greatest fear from the JetStar and Q-Link pilot's point of veiw is their relative seniority in a group situation .
As it's been pointed out before ,AIPA's bonafides in this type of situation has already well and truely been proven.
As it's playing out now ,without a unified pilot's voice even the JetStar pilots won't benifit in any meaningful way on the 787 without fair and decent working terms and conditions.That I believe ,can only be negotiated to a mutually benificial conclusion from a collectively bargained position.Could the JPC or the AFAP or AIPA ,for that matter do a better job negotiating individually or would working together on this create a better deal for all future generations of Australian pilots to share?

[WoodenEye]

Apologies for having to publicly disagree with you Don, but can confirm that every since I was a elected to AIPA's COM in 1999, I can recall many attempts by AIPA to unite Australian Pilots. Yes! some committees were keener than others I admit, and some Presidents more obstructive than others.

But this doesn't change the fact that little portrayed in the media is absolutely accurate and much of what is written on Pprune and/or Qroom is simply pitifully wrong.

Notwithstanding, implementation of an Opportunity List is the most obvious way to provide the best career for all Qantas Group Pilots. IMHO, if it isn't implemented, all Qantas Group pilots will lose when the relevant law eventually allows Qantas to base its aircraft offshore and crew them with whomever.

Fortunately all is not lost. There is vey good reason for Management, Pilots and Engineers to work together but just like pilots, management aren't united in their view either. Hopefully the Government will ensure common sense prevails all round. If they can’t, regretfully it is airline employees, not shareholders, who have got the most to lose. :ugh:

[newsensation]

Despite whoever is in power at AIPA they have always been fair in the long run despite short term hiccups along the way.
Just look at the Integration of TAA/Australian into Qantas.

I think Don might be able to shed more light on this but as i remember, Eastern Australian Airlines were then owned by Australian Airlines but the then regional pilots were never considered by AIPA for integration along with the Australian Airlines pilots, they were only interested in pilots who threatened their jobs, other jet endorsed pilots.:rolleyes:

[Don Diego]

Wooden Eye,thank you for that response.I would like you to cast your mind back to the coverage case that AIPA ran some time ago,evidence was given by a COM member who is a regional pilot and an ARG chap,remember him???The part of his evidence that contradicts your version is that he stated the reason he wanted AIPA as his industrial representative was that they ONLY represented Qantas Group pilots.Do you remember his evidence???In fact, when he was cross examined he was left out on a limb as it appears you forgot to tell him about the inclusion of Virgin pilots in your claim.There is no doubt from his offering at that hearing that he was interested in nothing but Qantas Group pilots and he was the representative YOU had flogging your wares in the regionals,and have no doubt,he was faithfully saying exactly what you told him to.(You should have checked his statement prior to the hearing )So how is that uniting pilots in Australia??? As for the GOAL,you have never disclosed how you were going to get Co. to agree to it,and you still have not done so and until you do it will remain just another ruse on your(AIPA) part.:=

[teggun]

I believe you are correct Newsensation, my memory of the events were Australian Airlines/TAA fully owned EAA at the time and I think a large percentage of Sunstate.

EAA had an intergration case running at the time with Australian Airlines/TAA, QANTAS then purchased Australian Airlines/TAA.

After that purchase QANTAS had exactly the same relationship with TAA/Australian Airlines as TAA had with EAA.

That being QANTAS fully owned TAA/Australian, and TAA/Australian fully owned EAA.

Now many of the pilots in Australian/TAA had previously missed out on QANTAS interviews or didn't have the desired requirements to be accepted into QANTAS, just the same as many of the Regional pilots.

However AIPA accepted the TAA/Australian pilots without question, they then backed the companies view and didn't want anything to do with the regionals.

There was a token 200 numbers that were withdrawn after a period of time.

I can still recall the President at the time saying at one of hearings, "they are good turbo prop pilots but wouldn't make good JET pilots".

That was 15 years ago and the same process is repeating itself, AIPA didn't want anything to do with Jetstar, as they thought they would still get all the jet flying.

Now they are expanding they feel threatened, and they want a part of the action.

Once again nothing really has been mentioned about the Regionals, at this stage they are still only flying the turbo props, however take a close look at the latest C series Bombardier, starts at 110 seats goes all the way up to 149 seats.

The 737-400's are going out of service and the 717 are nearing the end of their life, these things are being looked at as I speak.

I can gaurantee that unless some sort of intergrated list is sorted prior to an announcement regarding the C series, the Regionals will tell AIPA to go and jump.

Remember these things go up to 149 seats, the jet rate is in the current EBA.

What better way for managemnt to reduce the Short Haul cost structure than to place these C Series into the Regionals.

When it does happen don't blame the Regionals for reducing the overall payrate in the industry as you do Jetstar, this was created by AIPA many years ago with there attitude BUGGER THE REST.

:ok:

[Tankengine]

teggun,
You should talk to some of the ex EAA crew now with QF who are now QF Captains about the deal and "token" 200 numbers.
All EAA crew had the chance, some did not take it for various reasons.

Some thought they could get better seniority by continuing the court case against QF which they had previously taken against TN - they were wrong!:ugh:

AIPA has been trying to get an integrated list for years to no avail, have the EAA Pilots [through the AFAP I presume] been trying as well? :confused:

It's time we all started working together, you seem to continue the race to the bottom with you last statement.:=

[Going Boeing]

Teggun, perhaps it's a suitable time to look at the history of AIPA. During the late 70s/early 80s, the AFAP was a professional body that was dominated by the interests of Ansett pilots - simply because they had the numbers in their own mainline plus the many subsidiaries. Generally, the interests of the TAA pilots were in line with the AN pilots thanks to the "Two Airline" policy. Qantas pilots were in the "Overseas Branch" of the AFAP & for many years, were frustrated with their inability to get improvements through if there was any chance of a future conflict with AN's expansion plans. The subs paid by QF pilots to AFAP was a very substantial percentage of the AFAP's income but the QF pilots saw very little value for their money so eventually the decision was made to break from AFAP and form AIPA with the sole intention of looking after Qantas pilots who numbered approx 500 at the time. There was never any plan for AIPA to "grow" and poach other pilots from AFAP.

The AFAP was a very stong industrial body until the Domestic Pilots Dispute in 1989, which resulted in its industrial power being significantly reduced as well as its income stream as most of the new pilots in TN & AN didn't join the AFAP. In 1992, Qantas (then Government owned) bought Australian Airlines (TAA) from the Oz Government for $400m (SQ bid $115m as that was all it was worth with all the debt it was still carrying from '89) and AIPA was confronted with expanding coverage to include the TN pilots. There were some opinions against this - Some QF pilots wanted the organisation to continue remaining focused on international operations and the majority of TN pilots were very hostile to TN being bought by QF and they didn't want QF pilot controlled AIPA having any input to their award (all 2 pages of it). AIPA's constitution was changed & Arbitration Commission processes were carried out to include coverage of the ex TN pilots (Australian International Pilots Association became Australian and International Pilots Association). AIPA's attempt to include the TN subsidiary pilots in the extended coverage was strongly opposed by QF management - TN had always kept the regional pilots at arms length from the mainline operations and QF management decided to keep that status quo going. They said that the regional operation could not afford to become the training ground for mainline pilots.

Once QF management made it very clear that they were opposed to Regional pilots being covered by AIPA, the support for them dropped which, in hindsight, was a big mistake as their coverage would have reduced the ability of the next generation of QF management (Dixon) to use "divide & conquer" tactics. AIPA remained focused on it's own issues for a number of years after that and dropped the ball again when Dixon set up Jet Connect in NZ - the majority didn't see that this was the thin edge of the wedge (although many would say that the NJS regional operation set up by TN was the first use of this industrial tactic). Some in AIPA started getting vocal about the threat that Jet Connect type operations posed so that by the time Impulse was bought by QF, AIPA's COM wanted to act swiftly to include coverage of the Impulse pilots. AIPA's President and Industrial Manager had a meeting with a group of Impulse Pilots, advised them that the AIPA constitution would have to be changed to allow the Impulse pilots to become members and suggested that they set up their own Council (IPC) (something they could not do while they worked for Jerry) to carry out industrial negotiations until they became members of AIPA. AIPA's resources & industrial expertise were also offered in support. AIPA's COM was dismayed when some months later, word filtered back that the President had subsequently told the Impulse pilots that they were not wanted by AIPA. That was against COM wishes and was very short sighted (unless you wanted a job high up in QF management as that President subsequently went to). That unilateral action resulted in the Impulse (later Jetstar) pilots feeling very angry at being rejected and so when AIPA made attempts in subsequent years to mend bridges and include them in AIPA's coverage, they were met with distrust and resentment. In the background of all this were the QLink pilots who were not being given the career options that they deserved or decent industrial coverage.

WoodEye's ARG run AIPA started in the right direction with GOaL but with such distrust (& disinformation) amongst the pilot community, it proved very hard to bring to fruition. I have confidence that the current AIPA president will try to unify the various pilot groups so that we can achieve more in our dealings with management.

[teresa green]

Going Boeing, quite correct in what you posted, but it runs deeper than that, as long as QF pilots see JQ pilots as threats to their own pay packet and standard of living, there is always going to be anomosity, lets face it some of the rank and file in QF would prefer to see the whole box and dice blown of the face of the earth, and while that attitude continues it is hard for both these groups to face off in the same union. This suits management down to the ground, united we stand blah blah blah. As one from the dreaded 89 debarcle, I just wish I could get you blokes to have some unity, LCC are here to stay, far better the money from JQ is going into QF'S coffers than into say Virgin or SQ's,there is room for all, and nobody wants to see QF become a "boutique" airline as the AIPA fears, and probably rightly so, if ALL join the one big union you have management by the short and curlys, if not they will do as they please, its as simple as that, and in the current climate who knows what is down the track. DON"T END UP LIKE US!:(

[Oxidant]

Having read #17 through #29, I rest my case. "Divided you stand":ugh:

[Don Diego]

Tankengine,had the 200 numbers been the real deal as opposed to the token offer,then I ask you what EAA pilot wouldn't have taken one??There was a catch and you know it is well as the rest of us!!!As for AIPA trying to get an intergration deal up for the regionals,they talk about it and that is about it(WoodenEye we are still waiting for the plan).
Oxidant,before we can all move on together it may be a good idea to acknowledge the past.The regionals were virtually ignored until Jetstar came along,it is only recently that AIPA refer to all professional pilots as opposed to Qantas Group pilots.This is a refreshing change and hopefully there will be more in the near future.DD.

[What The]

What was the catch?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

I distinctly remember CMs comments. He is now the Chief Pilot.

DM

[Flava Saver]

No he's not. He WAS the Chief Pilot.

[vigi-one]

They said that the regional operation could not afford to become the training ground for mainline pilots.


How times change. Thats exactly what Qlink has become with a large number of Q Cadets now at the link. But still no progression for those that train the cadets (whom i might say are all great blokes and sheilas)

[WoodenEye]

Don D,

The following quote by GB:
..."AIPA started in the right direction with GOaL but with such distrust (& disinformation) amongst the pilot community; it proved very hard to bring to fruition..."
Has real relevance I believe.

In the circumstances, believe it is better for the pilot group if you contact AIPA, AFAP or NZALPA for a briefing on how the GOAL would work.

Recall that it has also had much debate here of Pprune, and a search of the archives should be fruitful for you.

cheers

[Don Diego]

WoodenEye,I know what the GOAL is and how you thought it might operate,what I do not know is how AIPA is going to get the Co. to do a 180 and accept it.You could not give the answer whilst you were Pres. and nor could your predecessor.I suspect the whole thing may have been just part of the membership drive and that there is no answer i.e.there was never going to be a GOAL just new members??

[Tankengine]

Come on Don, you say we don't want you and then reckon GOAL was all about us wanting new members? Why? We don't need your subs to run mainline, only to try and unite all the crews so as to benefit all of us.
Times change, people change. [some]
Progression from Cadet through dash8s to a380 Captain via regionals/jetstar/mainline SHOULD be possible, and work FOR the company but they wish to divide & conquer!:ugh:

What the, Gr12 I believe.

[Don Diego]

Tankengine,that is no answer just polly speak.

[Capt Kremin]

Excuse me if I have a bit of a giggle here.

Human nature...what a joke.:ugh:

Fact: Of the 500 or so QF guys who were in AIPA at the start, approximately 120 remain. That's out of 2500 current QF pilots.

Call it 5%.

We have people on this thread who are tarring 95% of QF pilots, people like yourselves who are generally apolitical and simply wish to make a quiet way in life, and blaming them for the current state of the piloting profession in Australia.

Fact: Jetstar pilots are joining AIPA in droves. If the current recruitment numbers continue for just a couple more months then the magic 50% + 1 will be reached. These people are joining AIPA for reasons unrelated to the attitudes of the fossilised die-hards we see who can't get their minds out of the late 70's. They don't care about what happend 25-30 years ago... they see that things have changed and disunity is death.

Times have changed. Industrial landscapes have changed. Personalities have changed.

Attitudes need to change or there will be nothing left but pleasant memories of the "Good ol days".

Build a bridge, get over it. AusALPA, AFAP or AIPA I don't care. As long as there is ONE organisation that stops the rot. Think ahead lads... not what happened back in 1981!

[max autobrakes]

Hear Hear ,
Capt Kremin, well said!

[teresa green]

Capt Kremin it was 89 ol chap, and all the fossils are hoping you lot can get your act together, and combine with one strong union, call it what you will, and than and only then will you lot be a force to be reckoned with, and you are going to need to be such a force as management twist and turn in the years ahead, to get what they want, and bugger you. The fossils DON'T want to see another generation of pilots end up on s#it street, there is nothing pleasant about it at all. Take it from a lot of fossils, including me.:(

[Keg]

Kremin wasn't referring to THE dispute, he was referring to when AFAP (overseas branch) formally split from the AFAP to form the AIPA. That some are still so caught up in the events of '89 that it impacts on their comprehension skills is telling.....or it was simply an honest mistake in which case it means nothing! :}

[max autobrakes]

Hi Keg
after reading your post I was afraid I too may have misinterpreted Capt Kremins post. Fortunately ,no, there can be no possible way of misinterpreting what Capt Kremin meant from the context of his post.
He was in fact talking about "The Rift" not "The Dispute", about that there can be no dispute.
Maybe age is catching up Teresa.
What was that term,cheeky F/O's use in situations like this,"Capt SOC" isn't it?

[Tankengine]

Don,
You can call it Polly speak if you like, however I am not on any committee for ANY union and never have been!
Just a line driver who thinks! I joined QF in 88 so not involved directly with any of "the split" or the "dispute" I have nothing to gain.
If I wanted to be quiet I can just sit back as a mainline LH Captain, none of this will affect me - but I feel for others. :ugh:

[Jimothy]

Teresa

You want all pilots to get their "act together, and combine with one strong union" and yet you start this thread off in a provocative manner towards QF pilots. What hope do the current generation of pilots have in forming a close bond with sniping from the sidelines from "fossils"like you. It is time to move on. Having just read AIPA Insights (newsletter for AIPA members) I believe they are doing their very best to support all Jetstar pilots in the current situation.

[maui]

So Kremin, you are suggesting that those 500 involved in "the rift", remained isolated and passed on none of their thoughts or ways to those that have followed.

And then we have the disgraceful contempt of all things non-mainline, until recent times. New concept, or was that something passed on by those "ineffective" 500.

Get a grip, you have an organisational culture that has not changed since the inception of the organisation in the 80's.

Your history speaks for itself.

Maui

[Reeltime]

Teresa Green, what are you trying to achieve with your posts? Don't you think someone else could come up with similar anecdotes regarding Jetstar pilots bagging QF pilots. Your liberal use of the term 'Skygods' says it all.

It would seem one of your offspring are flying for JQ? Don't you think it would be to their advantage, to be involved in a body that wants to further the interests of professional pilots? Instead you're just dragging up all the old animosity.

I have family connections to the era you speak so fondly of in another thread, so I may even have met you, though I hope not. You are retired and should be enjoying that...yet you throw petrol on the fire in difficult times.

[Keg]

Maui,

Whilst you feel that QF's history speaks for itself it appears unfortunately that your dislike for mainliners means that your view of that history is being distorted significantly. Given the articulated stance of many QF drivers on this forum (Going Boeing, noip, myself to name just three), it's pretty malicious to suggest that we have 'contempt' for things other than mainline. It's also pretty narrow minded to suggest that the organisational culture hasn't changed over the last decade when a) you're not part of it and b) it actually has- considerably- and for the better.

What is truly sad is that irrespective of the history, it is those with a good view of the future that see the need for unity, all the while you remain mired in your gloom and doom of the past. There is none so blind as those that will not see.

The options are plain as I see it. You can continue to view the world through your dislike and distrust or you can get on board and work for the future of the profession. As the J* adds say, you have a choice.

(PS: I have only contempt for individual PPRUNE posters when their comments indicate that they deserve it. Some of them are J*, some of them are QF drivers and some are DJ drivers. All of them tend to have a pretty big chip on the shoulder. Again, it's your choice).

[Capt Kremin]

Maui, I joined QF during the mass recruitments of the late 80's. My "cultural indoctrination" was a brief history of what had happened at the beginning of the decade. It meant little to me then and it probably means even less to those who followed me. Very little gets mentioned about it ever by the line guys because 95% weren't involved and don't give a rats!
People don't care why it happened or who screwed who or about some unforgiveable slight at some long forgotten conference.
Your constant references to the dim past merely serve to prevent what could be a better future.
The Company rejoice when they see this sort of thing. Ian Oldmeadow gets a nice little bonus and pilots get nowhere.
Not one of the guys on the current AIPA COM was around in 1981. Col Adams was the last and he has retired.

FFS give it a rest.:ugh:

[teresa green]

Jimothy, go read it again. What I am trying to say, that until both the groups can get it together you are pushing it uphill. Sure QF'S attitude over the years would get up anybodies nose, and it is not a attack on anyone in person, but the culture still exists, and by the way I also have one flying for QF, so that ends that theory. I just think it would be great if you all could get your s#it together and stick it to management thats all.