DAT ("the new and better" SN) to start flying tonight

[jumbolina]

According to several sources DAT will start flying tonight, first flight being to GVA @ 1800!

After management and the union signed new agreements early friday morning, the curator was the last person to stand between the "go around", and this afternoon he gave his approval.

For the moment, DAT will start with it's original fleet of 32 Avro's, if all goes well, 8 319's and 8 330's will follow.

Naturaly (?), the pilot's are taking the biggest pay cut.
Depending position and seniority between 25 and 35 percent.
For cabin crew all stays more or less the same. :)

At least we still have a job.

Let's make it work!!!

[FL310]

In fact...SN 2719 was airborne 18:25 local time.... :D :D :D

[Horatio]

Good news, indeed. As I said before DAT were the only profitable arm of the scrambled Sabena mess. It's good to see something survive out of the chaos that existed there.

Regarding pay cuts, I'm sure most would gladly receive a 25 - 30% cut, rather than a 100% paycut.

The Guv is again right on this one; it was the unions that killed the golden goose. They want to march and protest? Bit like the case of 'shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted'! Sad, but true.

[The Guvnor]

Interesting one for the legally minded amongst us.

Sabena is being liquidated. This means the following:

1) Its assets are to be sold off to the highest bidder (this includes DAT as a wholly owned subsidiary)

and

2) The Sabena two letter designator (SN) and three digit accounting code (082) are correspondingly no longer valid.

As the creditors have not been consulted on the sale of DAT or transfer of any other assets (including asset stripping by SN by handing over traffic rights and slots to its subnsidiary - assets which rightfully belong to the creditors); how can DAT operate?

Also, how can DAT operate under SN flight numbers - especially as it has its own designator (QG) - as surely by operating as a Sabena flight it is leaving itself open to having the aircraft seized by creditors (eg Eurocontrol, airports, handling companies etc).

Looks rather badly thought out to me - I suspect there will be tears before bedtime with this one! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[sabenapilot]

You shouyld know Guvnor that under belgian law a bankruptcy does not allow the creditors to just walk in and take whatever they want.
After a bankruptcy the management is replaced by what is called a curator.
His main task is to sell all assets of the company to compensate for its depts, but unlike in other countries he also has to take into account the interests of the employees as well. A scenario where for instance ryanair would buy DAT just to close it down is legally impossible in Belgium, even if they would like to pay 10 times as much as the new investors will do.

[jumbolina]

Guvnor,
The creditors HAVE been consulted, in fact, awaiting their approval is the one and only reason that DAT didn't fly on friday allready.
Besides, I think a flying company with profitable expetations is worth a whole lot more than one sitting on the ground, don't you think???
The SN number...they are working on that one, it's just that SN is (how silly it may sound) commercially more attractive for the moment.
But, I have got a question for you: do you think a couple of euro's for the creditors more important than about 1000 to 2000 jobs? (not counting indirect jobs).
If the creditors would not allow this, it would mean AT LEAST another 4000 people on the street, including 400 pilots. I mean, who would buy a bankrupt DAT in these days anyway?
Another fact: If one would buy DAT a week ago, they would have to pay it's employers their orriginal wages (stupid, I know, but Belgium law!).
Now, the pilot's have given up 35 % of their pay, in order to make this work (and believe me, at this company, we want to make it work!).
So, when do you think DAT was worth more, a week ago or as from 1825 lcl?
The Curator will make sure that DAT is being paid for eventually, that's his job.

Although I agree with you often, I would like to ask you to give us a break, we are trying real hard here!

"one for the money, two for the show..."

[lostinBRU]

Well done DAT!!!!

As a Brit who worked there for nearly 3 years, I say well done and good luck. I always had faith that this part of Sabena would survive. Why? Because it works!

It makes me sad (and angry) to see some of the **@!it comments on this forum about the situation out there. Belgium does have its problems (who doesn't ?) but it's like saying all muslims are terrorists. These guys always had the ****ty end of the stick with terms and conditions compared to their "mainline" peers and were very much looked down on as a poor relation.

But, what goes around, comes around, and these guys are getting what they deserve.

DAT "the new and better" SN ? It always was!

It lived in the real world and now they are getting the reward.

P.S. The contract reductions. Do they apply to SN guys going to DAT or to the existing DAT guys (who had worse pay & conditions anyway)?

[greybeard]

Good to see DAT up and running, did nearly 2 years there also and apart from the usual Contract rumbles mainly due to the used pilot salespeople who held it, was the good fun.
Then our fleet had onlt 7/8 crews and it worked well, good time off, plenty of flying and fine people to work with. Some of the F/O's went to KLM as a better deal as to get to SN you had to be born in the SN camp. Some of that lot really did look down on DAT and activley worked to prevent those F/O's getting in to SN.
Go for it DAT. :)

[Grumpfuttock]

Although DAT only made a profit because Sabena gave them a lot of money for every flying hour, regardless of passengers carried, they are a hard working bunch of people and deserve to succeed.

Good luck.

[jumbolina]

Lostinbru,
The reductions (25-35%) are for DAT cockpit personnel.
At this moment they haven't hired anyone from Sabena mainline, but if they do they will have to accept the new wages.
For cockpit it will mean AT LEAST 35% pay-cut; for cabin: Wages at DAT remain the same, but at SN CC earned 30% more, so IF DAT is going to hire them, they will have to take the pay-cut.

:) thanks for the support guys & girls :)

[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: jumbolina ]

[jimbob]

Good luck to all of you!!!!

[thewwIIace]

rather ironic that the only routes DAT are doing are the ones VEX now do in their own right, surely they would want to do routes they have no competition on for ALL Belgian airlines sakes, ie VEX and DAT. why do LHR, FCO, BCN, ZURICH etc, while there is no competition on vienna, venice, paris, marseille, etc. stupid or what!

[jumbolina]

Ace, rather interesting, were do you get this info??
DAT is not flying to BCN, FCO, LHR.
VEX is, under a SN flight number and a VEX nr :rolleyes:
In fact, they did fly to Venice today :D
If you would have studied the departure screen more carefully, you would have probably figured it out yourself :)

[ 11 November 2001: Message edited by: jumbolina ]

[thewwIIace]

sorry, but youre wrong, they flew 3 pax into LHR on saturday pm with their RJ and flew 1 out this morning. they start tommorrow all ex SN flights (85 destinations) using SN assets, slots, flight numbers etc, so much for companies trying to get there money out of SN as DAT using it now!! with no pax and costin a fortune now!!

[682ft AMSL]

EICAS

DAT have signalled they will commence LBA ops with a 2 x daily frequency, probably with an ATR72. The start date is a bit 'fluid', could be tomorrow but might be later in the week. bmi do start tomorrow, 3 x daily with an -145. The a/c to be used has been released from CDG duties - one of the LH 146 was ferried in this afternoon to take over this particular route; for how long, I'm not sure?

682

[cantillon]

Well done DAT! There is a terrific enthusiasm and dedication within this airline that I am sure will change people's perceptions of european airlines around. Ryanair and Easyjet will not be the only shows in town as far as lean and mean operators go nor will they have it all their own way within europe.

[FreezingFog]

thewwIIace, you are stirring a bit hard...reduce the destinations to 18 and you will be very close to reallity.

EICAS V18.5, if you would follow the proceedings a bit closer, such nonsense comments would not be necessary.

Always remember that there are people involved who did not support the SN-mainline strikes. Also, this startup helps to keep a lot of flight crew from flooding the market
On pax view, why should someone pay SMB 75% for another ticket, if there is a valid ticket on hands.... :eek:

[Aerienne]

I'm the only one to see the irony in piper's post?

[Saab 2000 Driver]

The reputation of Belgium is in the hands of foreign pilots!!!!

Well, I´m glad that the BeCA is doing such a wonderfull job of representing the ´real´ Belgians.

[BLEKE]

[ 13 November 2001: Message edited by: BLEKE ]

[ecam action]

To BLEKE and JUMBOLINA

I really don't appreciate the tone of your postings! i suppose you 've been with DAT max 2 years or even less and you 're lacking of experience in the aviation business.
So watch this forum in 1 month time. There is high risk that you too will be looking for another job.
It could be very sad for the good old friends i still see at DAT...you 2 ; you will learn the hard way...I hope you will stop then your silly childish postings

[jumbolina]

Ecam,
May I ask you what I said to make you this agitated?
I just re-read all my postings and I can find nothing childish about them.
Please quote me(if anybody else can-please do!)
Only my answer to the wwIIace was a bit off and I was probably wrong their too (sorry ace).
With regard to bleke's message, maybe it was a bit unpolite to all SN guysngirls who lost their job, so inconsiderate would be the word there, but I am sure he doesn't mean it that way-at least, not to the majority anyway.
He's probably meaning the millitant minority who preffered EVERYBODY out of a job, including BIAC airport (remember the blocade last thursday?)

I've been at DAT well over your 2 years now (was this meant as in insult-where do you get that number from anyway?), and I've been through some pretty tough times before that, how 'bout you?

I do agree with you, and the others, that it's going to be tough to make this work.
But we're all going for it with a positive attitude, what's the use going for it if we believed it won't work.
Hey, who said life was going to be easy?
At least the others wish us luck and have an open mind (thanks again guysngirls!!!).

By the way, how about a nice in depth (...) comment on piper737's comment, or...than again, you're probably right, it's to shortsighted and ....... to even comment about.

By the way piper737, are you doubting the skills and abelities (sorry for the speling)
of your dutch collegues?

I'll leave you with that, hope to hear from you soon (hey, that's the same way I finish my applications.... :D )

J.

[682ft AMSL]

EICAS

I'll see what I can find out for you but I think its been a slow start. There has been no real marketing push on the part of bmi (surprisingly) or by LBA (unsurprisingly) and SN ticket holders only receive 25% discount.

It seems that bmi will run the service along the lines of the CDG operation, e.g. point-to-point pax only, high fares in the week, reasonable deals with a Saturday stopover. Once up to speed, this should give them 4k-5k throughput per month. (Sabena averaged 9k-10k). Still room for DAT for the transfer pax perhaps? (

I can't actually believe that bmi didn't go with LBA-FRA instead of LBA-BRU. It would have given them the same high yield point-to-point traffic, and they woould fill the rest with Star Alliance transfer pax.

DAT are introducing destinations on a daily basis. MAN and NCL are due on line tomorrow.

682

[Up & Away]

Good News for Dat crew Flight deck and cabin. Its great to see Dat finally get the credit they deserve. Hope they have the services of some clever lawyers just in case. I wish them well.

topilot or to pprune
:) :rolleyes: :)

[VBO]

Putting D.A.T. back into business by the Belgian government and their associates is more a morale booster than it is long-term solution for everyone involved. Don't forget that D.A.T. is now operating on government money for at least one month untill possible investors will make a decision whether D.A.T. is worthwhile to operate. This scenario gets the heat off for the politicians for the time being. Sadly for those that have their hopes raised, they might be in for a chilling shower. A stand-alone D.A.T. with a bolted-on long-haul operation to satisfy the Sabena gang isn't a solution that fits the needs of the market. Conclusion: 3 months down the road, D.A.T./Air Belgium will have to reimburse government funding of 5 billion BFR and no investors ready with the cash! :D

[thewwIIace]

caveman is right, they will shortly run out of cash again, loads of 0 - 5 pax no one will invest in such a dead horse. again, why compete on routes where there are already 3-4 airlines operating with a track record - suicidal i think. crashdive, remember VEX is a belgium company and making a profit so throws that theory out of the window. anycompany well managed will be profitable. in my company we are doing bad now but have a strong past which will out see these trying times due to strong brand awareness

[WANDERLUST]

Advice for DAT.
Beware of bringing in ex Sabena into the operation. When DAT was under the leadership of Tony Van Grieken the company went from light aircraft to the BAe146 which were operated very sucessfully. We had a continuous fight with SN (Pilots Union) to be allowed to operate the aircraft. We were not qualified in their opinion. Of course nothing was done correctly in the opinion of the then Pilots Union and eventually Tony Van Grieken was ousted. Tony although was not liked by SN he was the only one with the b.... to speakup. To no avail. The results are apparent today. You cannot change the attitude of people brought up under the govt. umbrella. Do not let DAT follow the same fate as SN.

[dreambird]

Just check out the new web site DAT-airlines
http://www.dat-airlines.com/en/index_en.htm

and check out the board of directors

NO FURTHER COMMENT

[Hudson Bay]

Whispers in the city are that the banks are to pull the plug on DAT Monday 19 November.

[ 18 November 2001: Message edited by: Hudson Bay ]

[The Guvnor]

According to Belgium's VRT news, former DAT and VLM CEO Freddy Van Gaever has plans for a new airline, which would operate long-haul services only. He wouldn't compete with DAT+ or Virgin Express, so he won't fly to Africa, Europe or the Eastern USA.

Nothing is final yet, but Van Gaever told VRT that he was leaving for Bordeaux to talk to some owners of Airbus aircraft, including ex-Sabena A330s, and that he was talking to possible investors. The decision on whether to proceed with this project should be made by the end of next week.

Incidentally, Hudson Bay - the 18th is today (19th is Monday!) :D :D

[FL310]

Hudson...guess you had a long sleep and you felt the urge to say something. Beside the fact that you put up a day and do not mention a year, you also state that this is the word in town...which town?
If you do not have any actual facts than do not start something which will not help the industry at all.
With all the rumours and threating scenarios employees all over the places accept now new arrangements which have been available in writing decades ago.
Also, if one would be so lighthearted to believe your words, it is very new to me that banks do announcements or spreading words on a sunday....
Hopefully you can find a good rest and keep your fingers off the keyboard for some time... :mad: :mad: :mad:

[VBO]

D.A.T. is flying under responsability of the court for another 21/2 months. They are now using government money, intended for SABENA. Meaning if the 5 billon BFR are dried up, they need cash from the private investors. And those investors are not queing to be first in line! Result: very unsure future for DAT! Plan F. Vangaever is tricky: 3 or 5 Airbusses to serve respectively the USA West coast or the East&West coast with at least one aircraft in reserve in both cases!

[alterego]

To all at DAT, I wish you luck. That's from a 146 Driver who knows he's redundant soon.