Station Commanders rank

[A20DEK]

Can anyone help with a simple request:-

At RAF Leuchars the Station Commanders rank is Air Commodore, whilst at RAF Coningsby the Station Commanders rank is Group Captain.

To an outsider Coningsby looks to be the larger station i.e more squadrons etc. so why the lower rank?

First post, please be gentle!

[camelspyyder]

At Leuchars the boss is AOSNI (Air Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland)

At Coningsby he's just the CO...

cs

[taxydual]

The Leuchars staish is dual hatted. As well as being Station Commander he is also Air Officer Scotland. Hence the post is filled by an Air Commodore.



Ah, answer crossed in the ether.

[Paul Chocks]

OK - curiosity has the better of me - what is AOSNI's role? Do we have regional Air Officer's? Is the Staish at Valley Air Officer Wales? Scotland isn't a seperate command yet is it, or is it all gearing up for the planned Scottish independance when AOS will lead his stations in the defence of Bonnie Scotland against the southern hourdes!

[sisemen]

what is AOSNI's role?

Meetings, conferences, tea drinking, morale boosting inspections, tea drinking, cocktail parties, dressing up in glittery medals for morale boosting inspections, tea drinking etc etc etc

[Mr C Hinecap]

Yes - there is an Air Officer for Wales - and not the Princes.

[sitigeltfel]

What, in anyones experience, has been the lowest rank held by a Station (not unit) Commander?

[Biggus]

Flying Officer.......

[ian16th]

It depends a lot on how you define a 'Station'!

Do you mean a flying station with at least one operational squadron? Or will you accept some odd signals unit up Troodos?

[serf]

The Courier: Taking you to the heart of Tayside and Fife (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/03/13/newsstory12767013t0.asp)

Harry Staish

[Blanket Stacker]

Now that the Stn Cdr, Leuchars, is only Air Officer Scotland, the Stn Cdr at Aldergrove is also titled Senior RAF Officer, Northern Ireland, which is a GOTBO, given the lack of competition!

[Ivor Fynn]

Finger Poking,

You t!t, I suggest you have a look at CAS's career history and see exactly what he has done in his time.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Ivor

[larssnowpharter]

One recalls that in the early days of TTTE at Cottesmore the staish was an Air Commodore.

SRAFOR

(Senior RAF Officer Rutland?)

[tornadohotas]

For many years, the Station Commander at RAF St Athan was 'dual hatted' as Air Officer Wales in the rank of Air Commodore. I would imagine that now St Athan is a shadow of its former self in the guise of MoD St Athan this is no longer the case.

[Pontius Navigator]

How about having an Air Cdre staish in each county? Air Cdre Norfolk has a certain je ne c'est quoi.

OTOH the Rutland SO could be a sqn ldr or wg cdr.

I guess Waddo, Digby, Scampton and Coningsby would dip out to Cranwell but as there are 4 stations maybe they should have an AVM. The Commandant would be pleased if he got promoted.

BTW, this is not as daft as it seems. Under the old group and command structure there were plenty of stars in the bazars - Bawtry, Mildenhall, Brampton, Rudloe Manor, Pitreavie, Mountbatten, Upavon, Bentley Priory and I can't remember where 11 Gp and 12Gp, and 23Gp had their HQ, and 90Gp, Maintanance Command, Signals Command etc etc.

[bspatz]

Whilst a number of stations have had an Air Cdre Staish, very few have gone the whole hog and escalated the whole management structure to match. One exception was Lyneham in the late 60s/early 70s which not only had an Air Cdre but also had three GP Capts - Ops, Eng and Admin. I believe one of the reasons it was discontinued is that 46 Gp HQ was forced to operate one level higher in order to match rank levels which distorted the whole staffing process.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

And they are not still distorted today :eek:

[pr00ne]

bspatz,

Was that not the case for both Brize Norton and Akrotiri at one time?

[Duncoffin]

To the best of my knowledge the lowest I've seen a squadron leader at RAF Woodvale.

Mind you the station only holds two UASs and an AEF.

[bspatz]

Pr00ne

Not sure about Akrotiri but I do not believe that Brize followed the Lyneham example.

[gibbo568]

For a short period, RAF Leuchars had a WC as station commander, about 2001, according to:-

Station OCs (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Station%20OCs-Scot.htm#Leuchars).

If its the same PC, I knew him as a J/T at Finningley, and he is now an Air Commodore.
Not bad for a Halton Brat!

[Get me some traffic]

I was Oi/c RAF Mona as a Pilot Officer once. Does that make me the most junior Staish?

[Pontius Navigator]

bspatz,

Was that not the case for both Brize Norton and Akrotiri at one time?

I think at Akrotiri there was only one gp capt - he was Gp Capt Ops - Admin had to make do with a mere wg cdr. Ops had a gp capt as he had a Bomber Wing, fighter sqn, transport sqn and sundry other things to look after.

I would not be surprised if they decided to introduce a gp capt ops to over see a 3 sqn wg - part of the expeditionary air wing structure - and leave a gp capt, rather than a wg cdr OC Base Support. A bit like the USAF structure?

[sisemen]

RAF Rudloe Manor was a sqn ldr post when I pitched up there as a newly graduated fg off.

And now - your starter for 10.....

Which operational (flying) base had 2 established Station Commanders?

[PARALLEL TRACK]

Slightly off thread. There was a retired Naval aviator worked in the sim at Lossie known as SNOWMAN - Senior Naval Officer West Morayshire And Nairn. Thoroughly nice chap too!

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was at Kai Tak in 1968 the CO, a colourful Gp Capt called Rex Williams (Sexy Rexy to the wives) styled himself Commander RAF Hong Kong, an entirely spurious title invented by him. It didnt do him any good in the promotion stakes though, as I dont think he ever made the jump to air rank.

[EODFelix]

Pontius, there is a Group Captain in the EAW structure but he resides within 83 EAG spending most of his time in the CAOC at that giant US air base. However 83 EAG does have a resident Air Commodore as boss. Reporting to him are 901, 902, 903 (soon to go) and 904 EAWs.

[threeputt]

My old man was a Sqn Ldr CO of RAF Redbrae, which was the Military Air Traffic centre based at Prestwick airport, in the early 60's.

3P:ok:

[lightningmate]

sisemen,

I will offer Gütersloh when it was the RAFG Harrier home.

I x Gp Capt to look after the visible bits of concrete and 1 x Gp Capt to command in the field when the sqns lived in the woods.

Hearsay, but I understand it was not the best of arrangements; hardly surprising considering some of the 4-ring personalities that had to work together!

lm

[Pontius Navigator]

Felix, ty, however that of course throws up the other question. What exactly is the purpose of an EAW at a UK base? I can buy in if the entire 'forward' element deployed as a wing but they don't. Only a flight tends to deploy and then they form part of, as you say 83 EAW.

It would make sense if UK Base "X" deployed as the EAW with flight of its aircraft forming the teeth but with the majority of the aircraft 'rear' on maintenance or workup I feel the concept fails.

[AdanaKebab]

I believe RAF Portreath Staish is currently a Flt Lt.

Do I win a prize? Do I...

[MadsDad]

Not a full time job, I know but isn't it the case that when everyone senior has gone home for tea the Officer of the Day becomes the effective Station Commander? (as in the navy when everyone else has gone down the pub the Midshipman becomes Captain of the ship).

In which case I know a Pilot Officer, of 1 month seniority, who was Station Commander at Leuchars.

[4mastacker]

ISTR that RAF Holbeach had a Flt Lt as OC quite a few years ago - but as Holbeach was parented by Marham does that count?

[Satellite_Driver]

There's a difference between a Station Commander and a Unit or Detachment Commander. In a nutshell, if a base has its own Stn HQ and manages its own admin rather than being parented by another unit, then it's usually deemed a Station and the OC gets to be Stn Cdr, with various extra powers and responsibilities (e.g. enhanced powers of punishment).

As late as the early 90s there were a lot of small stations; my first tour was at RAF Staxton Wold, where the Stn Cdr was a sqn ldr FC post, from where I went on to RAF Oakhanger which was run by a wg cdr Eng. Several small Signals Units were counted as stations, and friends of mine from EngO training ended up as 2nd tour flt lts as Stn Cdr RAF Boddington and RAF Bampton Castle.

However, the inexorable rise of 'The Borg' (aka DCSA) put paid to all the little independent SUs; they were closed, contractorised or made into subordinate detachments of larger sites. By the time I went back to Oakhanger as CO much of it was handed over to the PFI contractor, and the bit that was left lost its own admin support and instead was parented by RAF Odiham whilst being organisationally subordinate to DCSA HQ at Corsham. As such I was Unit Cdr of DCSA Oakhanger, rather than Stn Cdr RAF Oakhanger. The main upshot of this was that I had no ensign to salute :-(

[sisemen]

.....and the answer is.....

RAF BENSON

In the days of The Queen's Flt the Gp Capt stn cdr post also had a busy role as a member of TQF (Deputy Captain??). Therefore, there was also a Deputy Station Commander (wg cdr post) formally established. The rest of the station hierarchy was therefore one rank down; ie as a sqn ldr I was OC Admin. The system started to change just before I left when the "wing" posts were being upgraded to wg cdr. The thieving bar stewards never gave me substitution pay for filling a wg cdr slot before I left to come to Oz.

There was also an AVM established as Captain of TQF but generally he didn't mix with mere mortals.

[Pontius Navigator]

ISTR that RAF Holbeach had a Flt Lt as OC quite a few years ago - but as Holbeach was parented by Marham does that count?

Indeed all the ranges had a flt lt at station commander. The station was a directly administered unit of Strike and although Marham did its parenting that was only for those functions that Holbeach did not have. The establishment was in the region of 65 and included MT, Catering, Admin etc. The organisation was slimmed down with contractorisation and from about the late 1990s was almost entirely run by contractors. Marham however had no input on the running of the unit, they merely provided personnel and services to fill any gaps.

Perhaps the record was held by Sam Curtis, late OC RAF Jurby who, when closed became OC RAF Wainfleet. I think he held both jobs for a total of 23 years and dropped in rank from sqn ldr to flt lt and RO when he retired.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Felix, Pontius

I'd counter that the 900 series EAWs are not EAWs - they are not expeditionary. They are now essentially bases that happen to be in operational theatres. If a deployment goes beyond 6 months, I'd say it wasn't expeditionary but a new 'fixed' base. The EAWs on UK bases are totally different creatures and should be identified as such - they are for up to 6 months - anything longer and it would be roulemonted via DWR.

[BEagle]

A few years ago, OC Ascension Island (with a staff of about half a dozen people...) decided to appoint himself the grand title of OCBFASI - Officer Commanding British Forces Ascension Island.....:hmm:

To the HQ staff at Base Aerea Gringo, Islas Malvinas, he soon became known as SCAFA - Supreme Commander Allied Forces Ascension Island....:E

Not a bad job - sitting around in the sun for most of the week then watching the odd TriShaw stage through.

[Pontius Navigator]

Felix, Pontius

I'd counter that the 900 series EAWs are not EAWs - they are not expeditionary.

I agree.

They are now essentially bases that happen to be in operational theatres.

I disagree. The 900 series EAW are no more than a patch on the greens and are in the UK rear area.

If a deployment goes beyond 6 months, I'd say it wasn't expeditionary but a new 'fixed' base.

Agree again. What they are is TACTICAL not EXEDITIONARY.

The EAWs on UK bases are totally different creatures and should be identified as such

Agree again and much of the espirit de corps that they were supposed to encourage went out the window with the reversion to blues.

- they are for up to 6 months - anything longer and it would be roulemonted via DWR. ie a Tactical posting. Indeed TSW, TCW, TMedW etc etc all showed the way. The only thing they don't have is a number.

How about we bring back 224 Gp? Right theatre even.

[sunshiner]

bspatz,
Harry Staish was Air Cdre at Aki but was downgraded to wg cdr just over 2 years ago as part of the BFC re-structure programme. The Army CO posts were also downgraded at the same time at Episkopi and Dhekelia. Imagine the uproar when CBF (RAF) at the time upgraded the Aki CO post to gp capt whilst keeping the 2 Army units at Lt Col rank. It had the Army ROs in HQ at Episkopi spitting feathers -it was a sight to see....!!

[Lou Scannon]

A navigator I once knew claimed, at one time, to be Station Commander of RAF Akaba (read T.E.Lawrence to check spelling) in the rank of Flying Officer.

Approach (he was also SATCO) was the radio in a wrecked DC3 and tower was the radio in a wrecked Valetta.

The groundcrew modified his service bike with a pennant flying from the front mudguard.:ok:

[pr00ne]

Pontius Navigator,

Wasn't 224 Group a tad further East, as in FEAF at Seletar?

[The Oberon]

R.A.F. Waddington has the usual compliment of a Group Captain Staish and Wing Commanders. The lodger unit, The Air Warfare Centre, is commanded by an Air Commodore with a gaggle of Group Captains. One of the previous Air Commodores, now AVM, had a star plate on his bike.

[Strictly Jungly]

RAF St Mawgan currently has a Wg Cdr as the Staish...............

[Arfer Minnit]

Back in the days of 'Are you a real sqn ldr or a VC10 captain?' Brize had an Air Cdre as staish when Jock Kennedy was promoted in situ. IIRC, when Air Cdre Kennedy moved onwards (and, eventually, upwards), he was replaced by 2 x gp capt entitled Stn Cdr (Ops) and Stn Cdr (Protocol)! Can't remember the names of these worthies and I left Brize soon after so I don't know how long this quaint arrangement lasted - I suspect it went down the plughole during the massacre of the Strategic AT Force in 1975 (if it lasted that long).

[CounterSunk]

I may be mistaken, but was this chap (http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/defence/raf/aa) promoted before the end of his recent tenure at BZN therefore, he was the Staish, as an Air Commodore, for a spell?

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius Navigator,

Wasn't 224 Group a tad further East, as in FEAF at Seletar?

Pr00ne, indeed they were, when they were disbanded but in 1942 they were at Chittagong. This link is fascinating:

Commands - Iraq/India/FE_P (http://www.rafweb.org/Cmd_O3.htm)

While there is a similar site for MEAF/NEAF it is the FEAF one that lists Iraq and thus, by extension, AFG falls within the old FEAF area.

As 224 was known as a mobile HQ group it could be resurected.

[reynoldsno1]

ISTR the CO of RAF Worth Matravers was a Flt/Lt and lived in the local pub.....

[The Old Fat One]

At St Mawgan circa 1989 pretty much the entire collection of top knobs managed to gather together in Ops for a shift handover during a full on taceval.

Way to good an opportunity for the NATO umpires to resist, so they just "blew up" Ops and we called Op ClusterF**K - or something - and manned up Standby Ops (an old shed somewhere on the airfield, with a battery powered HF in it).

Having been in the station car park on route to my shift as duty flying officer gofer, I duly found myself as duty ops controller standby ops AKA duty force controller AKA Harry Staish. It took about an hour for us to locate a Sqn Ldr to take over the controls.

My bid for substitution pay was rejected.

[GasFitter]

I think you'll find that the Staish is a substantive Gp Capt and an acting Air Cdre for the AOSNI role .... so he's only pretending!

[ian16th]

Gasfitter,

But is he 'Pretending Paid'?

[moony]

Re two Group Captains. The Harrier Force did have two but I don't think it was at Gut, certainly not when I was there 83-86. But we did have two at Wildrath when I got there in 73. Paddy Hine and Peter Tetley I seem to recall.

[BobbyT]

My mate has just taken up the position, Senior Commander British Forces South Carolina, USA. That just about trumps everyone. Admittedly he is the only British serving officer there, but it still counts!

[taxydual]

I know they weren't Staishes per se, but in the RNEFTS days in the late 70's/early 80's, we had:
SNOL Senior Naval Officer Leeming
SNOLOO Senior Naval Officer Linton on Ouse
and the Senior Naval Officer Topcliffe, who, for some reason or other, wasn't totally happy with his acronym.

[Wensleydale]

On a detachment to Keflavic back in the early eighties, the Flt Lt aircraft captain was introduced in the O Club Bar to a senior USAF Officer as "DETCOM SHACKLANT". Said USAF Officer called him Sir for the rest of the night...

[chippy63]

Just loved the description of Air cdre Eliott as [I]aide de comps [I]! And in an official publication as well.:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

In ASI we had SNOW, SLOPS and SLATS. We didn't dignify the ex-RN scribbly with a title.

[The Old Fat One]

On a detachment to Keflavic back in the early eighties, the Flt Lt aircraft captain was introduced in the O Club Bar to a senior USAF Officer as "DETCOM SHACKLANT". Said USAF Officer called him Sir for the rest of the night...


Just love them spams. Reminds me of 42 farewell tour at NAS Brunswick circa '92. Well renowned senior AEO borrowed some Masters rank tabs and introduced himself to a mega-stressed B52 co-pilot as a rear-admiral. Dude was fetching and carrying drinks for him in the O club all night.

[Cyberhacker]

One thing that does puzzle me is the "rank inflation" that has happened within flying squadrons... although I do accept that there is generalisation...

Flight commanders tend to hold the rank of Squadron Leader
Squadron commanders tend to hold the rank of Wing Commander
etc

[Wensleydale]

Cyberhacker,

Things used to be much more logical.

Pilot Officer - Commissioned Junior Pilot
Flying Officer - Organised the flying programme/duties.
Flight Lieutenant - Commanded a Flight
Squadron Leader - Led a Squadron
Wing Commander - Commanded a wing
Group Captain - in charge of a Group
Air Commadore - Supervised the Fleet.
Air Vice Marshall - Made sure that the strippers arrived on time....

However, since the advent of Green Shielders, and rank connected pay, we all went up one ( rank that is - not the strippers).:ok:

[ian16th]

Sqdn. Ldr's tended to command fighter squadrons and Wing Co's commanded bomber Sqdns.

Just think, a Sqdn of 12 Fighters, Spitfires or Hunters, had 12 engines and 12 drivers seats. Calculate how many aircrew and ground crew the Sqdn Commander had reporting to him.

Now take a bomber Sqdn, WWII or V-Force. Same 12 A/C, 7 or 5 aircrew per mission, plus spares for sickness, courses and leave, 4 engines and associated hardware per A/C for the ground crew to look after. Look at the kit behind the driver, in the Nav's and Wop's positions in a bomber, again WWII or V-Force. Someone had to keep it working. This in turn meant more NCO's and SNCO's.

The head count reporting to the OC Sqdn was very much larger.

Commanding a bomber Sqdn was a much larger job, particularly from the none flying, man-management aspect and easily justifying the higher rank.