Re-introduction of Commissioning opportunities for NCA

[baffy boy]

Bargain. The policy of non commissioned aircrew not being able to apply for a commission in branch has been reversed.
Has someone in ACOS Manning retired, or this an acknowledgement that the policy was flawed?
What next? Brevets that reflect specialisation? On v neck sweaters maybe?
Congratulations to whoever made the U-turn, this is a victory for common sense and good news for NCA.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Wonder if they will follow the route of applying via the AFCO as per Airman - Commission application or if it will be administered 'in-house' as they've already done OASC (albeit assessed for NCA).

[mad eng]

Standby for the smallprint.
I think you will find that it will be a very limited number and not to become a leader, but to disappear into the system. They need Sqn Ldrs, so pick NCA with relevant skills and groom them to fit the bill. This is not a policy reversal to commissioning within branch.
Sorry fellas

[camelspyyder]

On a positive note for older folk, the age limit appears to be 47:)

[Gnd]

I believe that this is only a finger in the hole to stop the NAO getting its way - NCO Aircrew (front as well as rear). There is no reason (no Nuke) to pay exorbitant wages to non position holding Commissioned Officers when an NCO can do a better job at less cost - it has been proved to work. Officers for the Exec positions - NCOs to give long return of flying duty; cheaply!!!!

It has been done before and looks to be inbound - re-treads are just as expensive!!!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I've never really understood where all these savings would come from if we looked at NCO pilots.

If it were run similarly to current NCA, then a new Sergeant earns as much on starting as a top-tier level 10 Fg Off, and costs you over than £10k more than a similarly-aged A/Plt Off or £7k more than a Plt Off. Sure, they're capped at a lower level, but even your top-level Sgt only saves you a few thousand a year over a Flt Lt.

Starting them as Corporals means you'd be saving a not-very-spectacular £2000-odd a year over a Fg Off.

Besides, if you didn't up flying pay to cover the gap, wouldn't all your new NCO pilots being paid less than their officer equivalents be even more likely to PVR their way to airline jobs as soon as they had a bunch of hours under their belts?

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

stop the NAO getting its way

'NAO' anyone?

[Gnd]

National Audit Office.

I agree that there seems little change at the sprog end but at the other, e.g. a great reduction in the SO2 onward range is substantial.

More SO2 posts filled by SO3s (e.g. Sqn Ldr incharge of a Sqn for instance and a Flt Lt incharge of a Flt???) and capped at L22 PAS. This workes around the world and the NAO have been muting this for a while. We will see but in this climate - so much is under threat and remember, to PVR now is a little brave and the RAF have used this to great effect in times of war before?

Another point to ponder is that not every one flies for the pay - some enjoy it and would jump at the chance - even for a pittance which is NCO aircrew!!!!!

[Truckkie]

We're all officers first and Pilot/Nav second.

How would you run a career pattern if you only had officers for exec positions?

Where would your junior pilots come from?

I wouldn't have joined to be a pilot as a Sgt - it's a career choice as well as a profession.

Then you get the problems of SNCO pilots trying to hold their own in a HQ/TGHQ/DOB/FOB with a whole host of junior/senior officers making the decisions.

Don't get me wrong - almost all NCA could easily be Pilots/Navs as they have the aptitude, but for instance would they have the presence to be a multi-engine aircraft captain? Dealing with 14 crew and over 200 passengers, stuck halfway round the world can be quite challenging:eek:

Especially if they all seriously out-rank you.

This subject has been around for years - the best NCA are going to get in the current climate is the chance to be an S02 in a specific post to cover the shortfall of Sqn Ldrs

[Gnd]

Unfortunately, the answer is yes they can hold their own - ever fronted up a stroppy Army WO? even worse and American WO 1/2/3/4/5 who hold Officer Status – we normally follow the US so why be different this time

It works and the bean counters have, and are looking at it. If the Army failed - the RAF might have and argument but they are not flying an aircraft that has, and is by the RAF, thought of in the same way as the Harrier.

5 SO2s in a flight is very expensive and it does happen. I do think this may be more appropriate to the RW fraternity; in the short term anyway.

Just out of interest - how would a junior Flt Lt do when confronted with a stroppy Wng Comd 200 miles around the other side of the world - pull the Aircraft Captain card like any Army WO maybe or get help from the MALM?

[Cornish Jack]

almost all NCA could easily be Pilots/Navs as they have the aptitude, but for instance would they have the presence to be a multi-engine aircraft captain? Dealing with 14 crew and over 200 passengers, stuck halfway round the world can be quite challenging
Really??
Perhaps just as challenging as captaining a multi engine aircraft ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WORLD as used to be the case with stalwarts such as M Plt Jack Huntingdon et al. Done, I might add, in aircraft considerably more demanding than the 'over the weather' pressurised comfort of today's crews. Those crews descended directly from their counterparts who operated in even worse conditions 'cos they were flying over countries which had a habit of firing nasty big explosive things at them. Oh yes, by the way, our nco captains flew their multi-engine aircraft by themselves - one pilot, one pilot's assistant and one Nav, and, would you believe it, they actually managed to do it quite successfully.:rolleyes: I'm afraid that I still fail to understand what supposed 'magic' attending the 'Rupert Factory' works on highly competent pilots. I do know that ALL of those nco pilots that I flew with were quite exceptionally gifted - not necessarily something which could be universally applied elsewhere.:mad:

[Truckkie]

Gents - don't take this the wrong way.....but

Can you actually see a Sgt pilot flying Typhoon?

How about A400M/FSTA/C17 etc

How many Sgt pilots will make Sqn Cdrs/Stn Cdrs or AOCs etc?

Junior Officers become senior officers and unfortunately most Air Ranks are GD branch.

Yes - I agree, might suit the rotary world. But then again wouldn't it suit better if all SH/AH were operated by the Army with their SNCO pilots?

We're not dealing with WWII or the immediate post war years any more - SNCO Pilots are a thing of the past.

With the demise of the Air Eng trade shortly and reduction in some fixed wing fleets could we not save more money by removing SNCO status from AEops and ALMs?

Do you really need to be a SNCO in these jobs? Sounds like the same argument for Officer pilots to me:ok:

[davejb]

Good grief,
somebody really DOES believe that attending OTU magically confers the ability to make decisions and stand up for themselves, if not the ability to leap tall buildings etc

Okay, I'll bite.... what amazing difference would there be then between an NCO who had passed the aptitude tests and the subsequent flying training courses before graduating to the front line and Typhoon, and a Fg Off who had done the same? Pixie dust in the blood or something?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

dave,

Forgive poor old Truckkie, I suspect a bit too much to drink early doors made him post like such a silly billy.

I think he works south side where I am and unless I am mistaken there is a chap over there, surname is the same as Sherlock Holmes side kick, who was a Sgt ALM and now happily drives Albert round the sky and with the impending demise of his current steed will no doubt be off to "A400M/FSTA/C17 etc" Whilst the name escapes I am sure an ex ALM is now a Harrier or some other pointy thing pilot, not forgetting the couple our side an ex Air Eng and an ALM, so it's not as if it's never been done before.

I am sure once he sobers up Truckkie will be back to apologise.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I am an ex-RAF Officer, Tornado GR1/GR1A & GR4 Navigator and now Airbus Training Captain in Civvie Street. Loved the RAF and now love what I am doing now. Long story, but that is for another day....

All those people saying that NCA are not fit for command and are not fit to command complex aircraft should perhaps read an excellent book I have just read called 'Apache Dawn'. It follows the Afghanistan adventures of British Army Apache pilots - the odd officer among them but mainly NCOs. The Apache is infinitely more complex than the Tornado GR4 in terms of operation and what they have been doing in terms of Close Air Support beats anything I ever did - including a number of low level missions in the first Gulf War. If I was an army squaddie on the ground, the guy I would want above me in that Apache would have loads of experience and not some army Major with 700 hours total time who knows all about 'commanding men'. I want someone who is knowledgeable, experienced, tenacious, motivated, keen and courageous - give me a Sgt pilot any day.

Being an officer is all very useful if you aspire to be the Squadron Boss and want someone to makes hearts and minds speeches in front of our wives and children. We have all known highly intelligent officers who would struggle to work out how to flush the toilet correctly. By the time I left the RAF, I had really had it with many senior officers who were just utter buffoons in posh suits. These are the same people that decided not to put a gun in the Typhoon or Harrier incidentally (the Typhoon gun is back in I hear). They are also the same people who decided not to put any ECM on the Tornado F3. Put a hard-bitten WO1 with a bit of savvy in the decison-making chain and none of that would have happened. I had also spent a little time with the army and was incredibly impressed by the nouse, wit and ability of the common British soldier. If I was in a tight spot, I do not care whether the people around me are officers or not - I care that they are well-trained, competent and courageous. All very useful as it is to be the best Wines Member in the history of the Mess, that sort of thing really counts for diddly when the rubber hits the road. There are some great officers in our nation's history but there are also some fantastic NCOs who can and do command men significantly more effectively than the officers over them.

[Gnd]

There is no right or wrong opinion here but a Civilian get a CPL at 150 hrs!!!! Even the lowliest Army Cpl gets 200hrs before promotion and a very low brow pilot’s job (oh and no CPL - yet - watch this space!!!). If he can be seen as suitable and pass all the hurdles (same as the RAF and Navy) he will command and get promoted.

By the time he has 500hrs he is looked at for Command - similar to an RAF Flt Lt if up to it. Having seen all 3 sides/colours of our trade - there isn’t much difference.

My point still is that in the long run Sgts will not Command the last RAF station still standing (even if they think they doo) but could easily, after a very long and distinguished creer, fly the last plane having cost a lot less to the bean counters/NAO.
Enough Officers will continue past their 16 yr point and if more GD guys and Girls get the AOC slots, why have Commissioned aircrew at all?? We may all be forced to be sensible and protect the present and future capability not the tradition and past.

[Truckkie]

Gents

Despite the numerous bites etc...

Can you honestly see the RAF doing away with most of its Officer Aircrew?

I think not - aptitude is one thing. Do you think the purple-blooded Air Officers would want 'enlisted chaps' flying their new shiny jets/helos etc?

think he works south side where I am and unless I am mistaken there is a chap over there, surname is the same as Sherlock Holmes side kick, who was a Sgt ALM and now happily drives Albert round the sky and with the impending demise of his current steed will no doubt be off to "A400M/FSTA/C17 etc"

Almost correct - I do know the bloke you're talking about above and unless I'm mistaken he's just taken promotion to Sqn Ldr - wouldn't have done that if he was a SNCO pilot!

Why did he get a commission then? Was he not happy being a Sgt?

:eek:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

No, I think he took a commission because he had to be commissioned to be a pilot, unless you can think of a another reason?

[Chugalug2]

Cornish Jack:

stalwarts such as M Plt Jack Huntingdon

Well he was a Flt Lt by the time I became one of his apprentices, CJ, but that didn't seem to affect his ability to produce a pithy Yorkshire expletive when the occasion called for it. If Ops Wing came up with some new super duper revolutionary way to dramatically increase the Hastings' Range/Endurance or whatever, they would nervously produce their paper for Jack's perusal. 5 minutes later he'd put it down and deliver his verdict; "f...ing stuff and f...ing nonsense"! The proposal would die there. On the other hand if you, by some miracle, produced a three pointer on the piano keys of a Tactical Landing from the RHS, Jack would take over with a "F...ing sow's ear lad, I have control". Bliss!
Oh as regards the OP my best instructor, other than Jack, was a Master Pilot on the JP. Don't know if that helps, but it did me!

[Gnd]

Can you honestly see the RAF doing away with most of its Officer Aircrew?

I think not - aptitude is one thing. Do you think the purple-blooded Air Officers would want 'enlisted chaps' flying their new shiny jets/helos etc? I do not think some over pompous RAF minion will have much sway over a bureaucratic, penny pinching bean counter. Do not think we are anything less than a pain and money swallowing organisation to them. Tradition and personal opinion will be very low on their reasons to keep things the way they are – lean proved that our opinion meant nothing!!!

Just don’t get to sad when you sit in the air with a very capable NCO – he will still be in charge if the auth sheet says so.

[Pontius Navigator]

5 SO2s in a flight is very expensive and it does happen. I do think this may be more appropriate to the RW fraternity; in the short term anyway.

Round the buoy again? In the mid-60s a V-bomber sqn with 55 aircrew had one wg cdr and one sqn ldr. Senior flt lt covered the QFI/IRE, plotter, radar, AEO Ldrs and a Training Officer. Many of these were Cranwell officers and destined for the stars. The rest of the billets were filled with 38/16 men.

Then came Hodgekinson and the creation of an additional 300 overborne sqn ldrs from which to increase the pool for wg cdrs. Unfortunately the sqn ldrs were not happy being sqn ldr gash-shag and wanted a role in life.

The same V-bomber sqn that previously had an SO/SO2 gained two SO2 flt cdrs, an AEO ldr, Nav Ldr, Pilot Ldr, and Training Officer. Overnight the SO2 role was diluted to just 20% and the SO3 billets abolished. Even Spec Aircrew sqn ldrs bumped career flt lt from useful employment.

Just out of interest - how would a junior Flt Lt do when confronted with a stroppy Wng Comd 200 miles around the other side of the world - pull the Aircraft Captain card like any Army WO maybe or get help from the MALM?

It has been done. If done properly it can be the wg cdr that trips on his knickers.

So, what has rank inflation actually achieved? It achieved a big put lift in retention pay but also led to major redundancy packages within a year or so. Promote, see how they manage, then promote further or make redundant.

[Gnd]

All good stuff and accurate but my point is - do not have as many SO2 posts and the ones you have, are meaningful.

Things have moved on from the V force and I, with no great opinion as I know many who hover in the useless SO2 post bracket, just think that the cost of too many higher ranks will be frowned upon in the corridors of civilian power.

I do think the FRI was divisive and would have been better spent on the 16k pa end of the scale or on JR accom - but I will never be in a position to sort that out.

[Pontius Navigator]

All good stuff and accurate but my point is - do not have as many SO2 posts and the ones you have, are meaningful.

Things have moved on from the V force and I, with no great opinion as I know many who hover in the useless SO2 post bracket, just think that the cost of too many higher ranks will be frowned upon in the corridors of civilian power.

Gnd, quite. I was just citing the V-force as the point at which it changed and the effect of the change. Other than that things really have not moved on.

Where a leader was a 2nd or 3rd tourist in role an SO2 is as likely to be parachuted in to the job and other than inate ability is no more role experienced as your 1st tourist in role but by virtue of rank is 'the expert'.

The pool is certainly bigger but also shallower. As you as, far more SO2 slots, many of which are not meaningful. OTOH I have seen far more SO3 at Air than used to be the case; SO3 used to be a rarity.

[Gnd]

True and the dilution of experience, in my opinion, is critical at the moment. This would account for the SO3 at Air.
This further strengthens the possibility of NCA being commissioned; this feeds experience in very fast albeit you would need to be on the ‘NCOs can’t command’ side of the fence or –
You accept that the Officer cadre is allowed to mature, in peace, using the SNCO to do the soldier ant task. This has its benefits allowing the experience to grow (Officer) as well as stay on the front line (SNCO) while allowing the luxury of maturing the competent SO3/2 who then can go into Air and Command.
I am still convinced that we can see the pitfalls easily but once you get into politics Mil or Civil – a lobotomy dulls the optical nerves – that can’t see beyond the end of their noses (unfair to tar all but you get the point). I have often wondered how a young blade can be fantastic then when they reach SO1 morph into ‘le Grand Idiot’ – bizarre – an NCO wouldn’t do that, they either are or are not idiots from day dot and remain so!!!

[Arty Fufkin]

Sorry for dragging this back to the NCO pilot argument, but Here's my viewpiont:

Anyone who has the necessary qualities to be a pilot in the military also has the necessary qualities to be commisioned. So why hold someone down at the rank of Sgt? The guys who flew in WWII as NCO pilots were similarly worthy of commisioning but were held down at NCO rank becuase of fears about watering down the "offficer class" with the influx of people from all backgrounds that was necessary to keep pace with the demand for aircrew. Thankfully those attitudes are a thing of the past.

To have Plt Off as the minimum rank for a pilot is no more absurd than having Sgt as the minimum rank for Air Eng, ALM or any of the other NCA trades.

I work alongside many NCO aircrew who I would be far happier training up to be pilots than some of the guys the training system throws at us. They are in many cases more reliable, harder working, cleverer, and more fun to have a beer with. I would however, want them to recieve the same pay and conditions as all the other Sqn pilots though, so they would have to be commisioned first.

The biggest question I really cannot get my head around is why on earth someone would want to be an NCO pilot rather than a commisioned pilot?

If it is because they will be cheaper to employ and this is a magnanimous gesture to save the treasury money, then good on ya. That is however a viewpoint not often expressed on PPrune.

If it is because you believe that officers work so much harder when not flying, what with all that officering to be getting on with, then you are sadly mistaken. The guys I work alongside have just as many ACRs to write (more actually) or struggle under reams of secondary duties in order to chase that next elusive promotion.

If it is because you believe that all officers are toffs and you would rather not have to mix with that type, then you are probably not one of the clever reliable, sociable, leaders that I mentioned in a previous paragraph and therefore probably shouldn't apply in any case.

If it is because you believe that all pilots get treated as officers first and therefore suffer frequent "staff tours" at the expense of their profesional experience then you are once again, well off the mark. I have enjoyed 15 years continuous flying. The only sacrifice?.... no promotion to Sqn Ldr:cool: (they do get staff tours!!)


I really can't see why anyone would want to be an NCO pilot rather than an officer pilot, anymore than someone would want to be an SAC loadie rather than a Sgt loadie. Please explain.

Come on, get a commision and become a pilot, ITS ACE:ok:.

Arty Out

[Gnd]

Every point well made and correct - it is not the 'Pilots' it will be the NAO or some such other faceless tyrant.

The Army has LE Officers (Very expencive!!! eg PAS L30+ ) to fill Command/Officer posts. The NCOs are flyers and I would love you to find one who felt it was required to be an Officer; there are the odd few - normally to extent their career.

(before we get into the grunt argument - I for one wouldn't be able to do what an Army Sgt does in his AH overseas so would never try to use a rude and wrong argument to prove a point) It's about the people and the faceless few.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Arty,

Top post and in total agreement with your thoughts. I don't think anyone here is advocating NCO pilots, certainly not me for sure, it's was simply the airing of the notion that to bean counters it may seem a logical move to make.

The main reason the thread got off track was the oft trotted out tripe that a Sgt could not possibly have what it takes be a Typhoon pilot, but if you put the same Sgt through IOT then somehow he suddenly may well have what it takes to be a Typhoon pilot, it's utter tosh and always has been :ok:

[Cornish Jack]

Chugalug2 -
'Captain' Jack's turn of phrase ... ahhh, yes!!! Dishforth Mess bridge school was not for untutored ears. Much consternation when Auntie Betty introduced FEMALE AQM's!! Considerable efforts were made to moderate the comments but all came to nought with " Dash it, partner, you've trumped my :mad:ng ace"!!
Great days and, of course, even more notable than JH was Johnny Loveridge holder of TWO current Transport Command A categories and training Captain on Bevs AND Hastings. The rush to make multi engine captains all 'shinies' had the two of them sent to Jurby. There was not the slightest possibility that their sojourn there could have 'improved' either one.:=

[davejb]

I think a big part of the answer to 'why would you want to be a Sgt pilot...' is the result of the commissioning process as observed by said NCOs.

Every NCO knows x people who were damn good at the job, excellent at running their wet/dry team and so forth, who got knocked back while some complete weasel who couldn't be trusted to read the FRCs unsupervised seemed to absolutely waltz it. I realise that the process isn't actually trying to locate Dan Dare/Biggles - but the amount of times Frank Spencer makes it tends to disillusion at times.

So if you don't have much faith in the commissioning process but want to be a pilot, then NCO pilots looks to be a good move....to an NCO. That NCO would almost certainly prefer a commission, but the pilot slot is the main draw.

It might also help retention on the frontline - NCOs eager for frontline flying for as long as possible, without the distraction of wondering whether the career would be better served by becoming a tea boy at MOD.

For the more dismissive on here - try checking the educational qualifications of your NCOs, when it comes to learning how to fly was the Modern Studies graduate up front really a better bet than the Maths graduate in the back?

[Arty Fufkin]

Davejb,

Might just me being a slow pilot with minimal qualififcations, but I still don't get the attraction to NCO pilot. The commisioning / OASC process is certainly imperfect, but it would remain so when selecting NCO pilots as well. We all have wondered at the stupid decisions made by commisioning and promotion boards from time to time, but are you telling me that is why someone wouldn't want to be a commmisioned pilot? Incase they fail selection? As I said before, the necessary qualities seen by a board to offer someone a job as captain of one of HMs aircraft, are well in excess of those required to offer someone employment as OC chips or some other bastion of bluntness. I can't ever see a selection board say " Yes, I'd like that chap to be in charge of X million pounds worth of jet or a crew of 20 and 250 passengers, I just have doubts as to whether or not he is officer material!!"

As previously stated, the MOD teaboy thing is a fallacy, provided you actualy want to remain flying and don't want to climb the greasy pole to Sqn Ldr and above.

Also, I would agree wholeheartedly that many NCOs have better academic qualifications that many officers. That is exactly my point. Dont consider a commision as a prerequisite for a pilot slot, see it as an added bonus, a welcome pressie for being picked to do a rather cool job!!:D


As for navigators.......bust them all down to corporal I say. Useless B**gers!


Arty F

[St Johns Wort]

Your premise that if someone has the smarts to be a pilot he has the smarts to be an officer is wrong.
I know several NCA that, having displayed the aptitude for pilot training at OASC on initial application, were knocked back on officer qualities (usually because they were deemed to be a little immature).
There are several NCO pilots from the AAC who failed on officer qualities when trying to transfer (no offence chaps).

[Gnd]

Whoa Arty - who is better to a board and which board would that be ? Maybe the Flt lt who hauls Doggy doo and 250 plus grumpy pax to an unscheduled tech stop or the A cat QHI Sgt that is mission Commanding an AH in dire conditions abroad?

He chooses to, and has worked hard to, be a SNCO with the kudos and privileges that entails. There is more than one benefit to being a SNCO in HMF and many of them similar to the Officers. Commissioned NCOs (ex NCA) are very similar and I know many an MALM that would happily remain WOs but would prefer to be front end, and could easily be.

[Truckkie]

And how long would it be before SNCO pilots look at the Officer pay scales and wonder why they are not getting the same basic or flying pay?

Lowering or capping(PAS) Officer Aircrew wages would have a knock on to recruitment and retention

Why go through all that flying training for 75% of the wages and 25% of the flying pay - just accept that you are better off being an officer - if you didn't make the grade at OASC that's the selection process!

Commissioning of NCA has been re-established to back fill various gapped or empty SO2/SO3 posts around the bazaars.

With the demise of C130K, VC10 and Tristar plus the possible cancellation of MRA4 and A400M the question is do we need NCA at all???

Surely SH crewman could just be airman much along the lines of various other air forces/armies - after all they fulfill much the same job as a Lynx door-gunner:ok:

[Arty Fufkin]

Gnd,

Are you really 43 or are you using your dad's computer?

SJ Wort,

There is a difference between passing an aptitude test for a job and passing the interview or selection proceedure. You could probably pick 20 people off the street and 10 of them would pass pilot aptitude tests. Not all of them would be suitable to be employed as a pilot. This whole hang up on "officer" qualities is clouding the issue. They are the same qualities looked for by any employer recruiting for pilots. The only difference is this: In the airforce, if you display those qualities but can't find your ar*ehole with both hands, you can still be commisioned into a ground branch (or as a nav)

Cheers

[nice castle]

Truckie, doing a bit of fishing are we?

"Surely SH crewman could just be airman much along the lines of various other air forces/armies - after all they fulfill much the same job as a Lynx door-gunnerhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

Average banter at best, undermining your argument and making you look pretty ignorant at worst, old chap.

[camelspyyder]

and his location gives it all away...pension due in 2012 is it???

[Truckkie]

and his location gives it all away...pension due in 2012 is it???


Nope - take over as SO1 (NCA) Manning.

[ProfessionalStudent]

This thread has drifted further and further away from the original post - not to say the points aren't valid, but...

Re-starting the commissioning of NCA is a really good way of keeping the more talented and enthusiastic guys in the branch/specialisation they're in now. I've seen many many NCA commission into ground trades over the past few years, the vast majority of whom have been a real loss to the branch. They were generally the cream of the crop and highly motivated and obviously frustrated at being "capped" at NCO level. As a result, they decided to commission to regain a career path and were lost to other branches (in particular the Flt Ops branch, but that's a different thread altogether...)

With the new scheme, the same guys will still rise to the top, but now they have a career path within specialisation resulting in their expertise and experience being retained where it is needed the most - the frontline. The old scheme was flawed in that there was no coarse filter at sqn level which meant any numpty could enter the OASC lottery, strike it lucky and come back as the relevant crew position leader - irrespective of professional ability or reputation (all those who work with NCA branches will know examples), thus causing the old scheme to lose credibilty over time. If the new scheme is to work effectively, careful filtering needs to be done at sqn level to ensure only the best candidates succeed in order to maintain credibility. Competition will be fierce enough but it will ensure that the good guys are retained.

I think there is a need for commissioned rearcrew to help bat for their side at sqn exec level and higher too. With the best will in the world, few MACR will hold real sway execs (though there will always be execptions) - many senior offrs still look down their noses at our non-commissioned brethren...

So, with careful execution and selection, commissioning of NCA will a) retain experience and expertise at the frontline and stop the bleeding of talent (or brain drain, if you prefer) from the NCA branches, b) offer NCA quicker and more extensive career progression and c) offer better representation for the boys and girls on the shop floor at exec level and beyond (to my knowledge, there are no NCA branch, branch sponsors).

Of course, some NCA will continue to commission out of specialisation but I will stick my neck out and suggest that the majority of those will apply for other flying roles - ie in the front, whether that be pointy, shiny or rotary.

So that's my opinion - as you will notice, I think it's a positive thing. And for those wondering about my provenance, I was a crewman for 8 years before commissiong to the front end 9 years ago (because I had to, in order to get there...). I feel very strongly about about my old branch and believed the stopping of NCA commissioning was a mistake - I hope the new scheme is a success and wish all candidates the very best of luck.

[Could be the last?]

What hasn't been clarified is how they (Com' NCA/Offrs) will be employed on the Sqns.

One would hope that they are given the chance to use their previous experience effectively, and not become someone's whipping boy.

Thoughts????

[ProfessionalStudent]

OC HQ Flight with a "Secondary Duty" (and please don't take that the wrong way, NCA!) of rearcrew "leader" (with a deliberate small L...).

Just a thought...

[davejb]

perhaps there are issues here that result from the fleet you are from - I suspect that in some parts of the RAF commissioned NCOs were the right chaps for the job etc., and there is genuine puzzlement as a result. In other fleets it has been rather difficult to work out exactly how the selection process worked in a fair number of cases...

You could probably pick 20 people off the street and 10 of them would pass pilot aptitude tests. Not all of them would be suitable to be employed as a pilot.

And therin lies the rub - an opinion shared by many a commissioning board... which is why a number of NCOs I have been crewed with eventually said 'sod this for a game of soldiers' and promptly took the gratuity and any other source of income going, and ended up as airline pilots and captains...

Look at what you wrote, and ask yourself where the logic went - they passed the aptitude tests but aren't suitable for training. (In the role the aptitude test is supposedly suppose to be testing for).

While a significant proportion of officers actually believe they are somehow endowed with a quality that cannot be defined or tested for, the RAF will continue to reject perfectly good candidates.

As for NCO pilots looking at commissioned rates of pay - spec aircrew is an example of how to make staying on a sqn attractive.... and dare it be said, after Sgt Bloggs has got onto his 2nd or 3rd tour perhaps somebody might realise he's a good egg and might be commissioned ready for a Flt Cdr role.... just as happened in WW2.... Was Ginger Lacey correctly appraised originally, do you think?


NCO commissions (in current specialisation) - good idea, but commission the guys who get B or A cats, not the weasels who run the cub scouts etc but who leave the answerphone on when short notice taskings come up.... the RAF's job is projection of airpower, too many people seem to think it's something to do with running clubs.

[St Johns Wort]

ARTY
Your last diatribe would indicate that the only 'hang up' with officers seems to be your own personal angst. The RAF recruit officer only pilots, thats the policy, it works very well, get over it.

Pro Stude
Nicely put.

Could be the Last
As I see it officer rear crew will enter the melting pot on a Sqn and, on merit, compete for the SO2 slots with the front enders. If one of them is made SME for the rear crew NCA then that would be a good idea but I believe that the reincarnation of the old style crewman/loadie/rearcrew leaders is a non starter. However, if it did happen how much better would it be if a Sqn Cdr had a pool of officers to choose from.

[Gnd]

Arty - Dad's gone, so no.

Front end aircrew are all on the same rate - in fact NCO aircrew (front) get more as they stay in trade up to enhanced normally. The only difference is PAS - L22 for NCO and L35 for Officers; this looks as if there will be a change soon (L28 for NCO)

IT IS ABOUT COST - not the paranoid concerns of the Officer class. We will not decide whether NCA become Commissioned or they remain NCA and end up in the front. Chaps get over your petty idiosyncratic parochialism and find the best solution for us all to remain in a job before FRA gets the Military contract – Arty (aren’t they deaf??) – some big words to prove I am older than 12 3/4!!!!!
I am not having a go at any opinions or persons (maybe a little retaliation here and there) - just pointing out the system may decide soon regardless of our wishes. We may need to embrace it or go.

[Arty Fufkin]

Dave JB,

Aptitude tests are just that. They are nothing more than a gross numpty check that filters out candidates who have no coordination, mental capacity, or SA. If someone commes up to you and says they passed pilot selection but failed on officer qualities, they mean the following:"I wasn't shown the door on day one becuase I was OK at the computer games, but couldn't find Afghanistan on a map" OK thats a litttle extreme, but my point is aptitude testing is a minor part of the process. That process is geared up to selecting a rounded military pilot first and foremost. If they have the qualities required to be a train as a pilot, they will by default have the qualities to hold a commision.


SJ Wort,

I have no angst, I am a commisioned pilot and as I said before would love to train up more NCOs as pilots ONCE THEY ARE COMMISIONED. For individuals of the same ability in the same job to be on different payscales at different ranks would be bonkers.

Gnd,

T'was a little banter:). If I am correct, I understand the thrust of your concern to be that NCO pilots would be cheaper and therefore may be foisted upon the RAF any way. I personaly can't see that happening, but it should be opposed if it were ever suggested.

I cannot comment on how the army do business. An appache captain / commander or whatever, is undoubtedly a proffesional whose abilities outstrip those of many RAF pilots. I would contend that all army pilots be given the option to be commisioned if they wanted it. Whether or not it would be an attractive option for an Army WO to become a Lt is some thing I cannot comment upon. But to have a pilot in the RAF wearing Sgt stripes would be doing the bloke a disservice.

[Blighter Pilot]

Having read this thread I am somewhat disappointed by the attitude towards NCA/SNCO Aircrew displayed by fellow PPRuNe members. Particularly worrying is that several of you appear to be currently serving as officers in the RAF:mad:

I happen to be an RAF Pilot, commissioned from NCA several years ago. To your surprise I managed quite well with the aptitude tests but IOT was a whole new experience!

24 weeks taught me nothing about leadership or man-management that I did not already know as a SNCO. The only thing IOT taught me was sword drill!

The argument will always be there for and against NCO Pilots within the RAF - I for one could see it working quite nicely in the SH world and within certain other fleets.

If the guy's got the aptitude then let them have a crack at flying training - I have seen some utter tw:mad:ts make it to the front-line who are nothing but an embarrassment to the 'officer corps'.

You do not need a commission to be a pilot - it's about time the attitude changed towards NCA and SNCO pilots.

Rant over, back to the thread:-

Good to see NCA commissioning coming back - there's a whole pool of talented SNCOs out there who will make excellent SO3/SO2s in the near future.

Good luck and about time:ok:

[Gnd]

Been done before:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/LowMozzie.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

If they have the qualities required to be a train as a pilot, they will by default have the qualities to hold a commision.

Arty, in one sentence you have encapsulated the whole thread.

If a someone has the aptitude and qualities to be a pilot why do they have the qualities to hold a commission.

Chalk and cheese maybe?

[Sideshow Bob]

Why do officers think that everyone strives to be an officer? I'm an above average Sgt Air Eng, I have been for some time. The Air Eng promotion board is one of the least contested boards, there were only 14 people A grade last year to fill 4 slots, why you may ask, well most of us can't be bothered to play the secondary duty game that is now a requisite for promotion. I'm quite happy being a Sgt, I'm really not into all that jumping through hoops stuff, but I do take pride in my job and do it to the best of my abilities.
You see, I think there is scope for people like me to step into the seat in front of mine without being an Officer. Just because you managed to get through IOT does not suddenly make you a great leader, many Officers have proved this point to be correct.
Personally I'm working on promotion by attrition; I know that by the time I leave in 2023, there won't be many, if any, other Air Eng's left, so they'll have to promote me at some time, lol :ok:

[Gnd]

True,

There are some NCA that have departed, done their licences and now fly as Captains – they most certainly were not Officer material as I can attest to in one very boorish Sgts to Officers Christmas function; the Boss still has nightmares and his hat never did recover!!!!!

I think the last post articulates the 'why would they want to be SNOs' answer very well, and it is from a SNCO so should be regarded as true, more representative than a guess anyway.

Apparently some of the Army pilots became successful Civilian Airline pilots too – would you credit it!!! And they never even tried to Commission?

[Arty Fufkin]

Oh for pity's sake! Let me try to spell out my (pro NCO) viewpiont in simple terms. As many of you seem to have completely misread me.:ugh:

1) NCOs are top blokes and I would much rather train up more of them to be pilots than many of the commisioned pilots the training system throws out. That is because nearly all of the NCO aircrew I work with and drink with are more mature, harder working and well rounded.( in more ways than one!)

2) Because they display such obvious personal qualities, I think it would be a shame that on completion of their training, they were paid any less than their cohorts.

3) The ones who would seriously consider retraining as pilots all display so called "officer qualities" in abundance.

4) Given that IOT is an attendance course these days, a hoop to jump through, and point 3) above:

Why not give them a commision? I don't care if the scroll comes in the post or they do the full 24 weeks of triv.

5) I agree that YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE AN OFFICER TO BE A PILOT!!! But whats the harm? I am no better than any one else just because I have a commision, but I appreciate the 60K a year.

I come in peace (except if you're a nav!)

Arty Fufkin


PS, Sideshow Bob, If you can't be arsed to get your Flt Sgt up (you said it ) why do you think you'd be competetive to be given a pilot slot? A little bit of work would be reqired mate.

[Pontius Navigator]

Arty,

3) The ones who would seriously consider retraining as pilots all display so called "officer qualities" in abundance

Arty you are also missing it. Sideshow Bob wants be a pilot but does not want the hastle of being an officer.

Years ago this sort of person has a Suplementary List commission - professional aircrew and permanent fg off!

[Gnd]

Now there is an idea - or - we could call them WO1/2/3/4.

OOO that sounds a bit yank to me.

Arty, I get your point and I agree with most of what you say. The difference is that some people want to be SNCOs and want to fly. It is, on the whole, cheaper to keep them that way so let them do it - if they choose.

Actually that isn't my point, it's my feeling. My point is the NAO or some other numpty organisation will probably realise this too and force it on us in this time of LEAN, Commissioned NCOs become very expensive as they normally come with PAS L35 and 05 - lucky them I here you say, a SNCO is L22 capped and cheaper than an SO2 behind a desk.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Someone starts a thread about future commissioning opportunities for NCA and it's immediately hijacked by a bunch of O's telling us what's best for us............................:eek:

[Blighter Pilot]

Bloody Royal's


Hey - don't tar us all with the same brush!!!

Some of us still remember our roots:ok:

[Gnd]

And others as well - been there.

It seems that most are actually telling you what is NOT good for you – i can see both sides of the argument and am happy I can.

[Arty Fufkin]

I give up!

Those of you who want to be Sgt pilots, fill yer boots. Bring back 75% allowances while we're at it I say.

:mad: Knockers!

[Gnd]

SNCO pilots, not capped on rank I hope.

Allowances - need to be in a trade that can get them for that to make a difference - don't get them in Hampshire!!! or on Ops.

[Arty Fufkin]

75% bedspace then.

Although capping it at Sgt would save alot of money. It could be spent on giving an extra helping of Swan to each officer for lunch in the mess.

[St Johns Wort]

Sorry arty, cant take you seriously whilst you spell commission with one s. Perhaps you are an SSAC.:O

[Door Slider]

I welcome the opportunity for rear crew to get commissioned within branch. Although, as pointed out they will probably not fill the same old loadie leader slots etc they used to. However, for young ambitious and eager lads to get ahead and fill SO2/3 jobs then that’s great for them, but also the RAF. I'm fed up deploying and having some numpty making critical decisions who have no idea what they are on about, having no OP experience or the ability to listen to the experts. Clearly you will never stop this but by having commissioned NCA who have been have been deemed suitable by OASC then it has to be a good thing.

The thread has drifted slightly towards pilot selection. As an ex ranker and a 10 year crewman I would rather see the current system stay as is. It has been said already, why anyone would want to be a pilot and not be commissioned? I don’t understand it. There are NCA who would not make suitable officers but there are also officers who should not be officers, that is the way of the world. If someone is prepared to undertake 3 years of arduous training then they would surely be prepared to do IOT, if suitable.
Just because the Army do it one way it does not mean the RAF should do it too! Would it really save money, I don’t think so.

[broguster17]

If you're NCA on PAS can you still apply for a commission?

[Door Slider]

Yes, the new rules allow you to apply upto the age of 47 and take PAS with you.

[mayorofgander]

The only difference is PAS - L22 for NCO and L35 for Officers; this looks as if there will be a change soon (L28 for NCO)

Hi Gang;

Thought it was Level 20 (Hey Ho)...and what's this vicious rumour about L28???

Regards;
MoG

[Biggus]

Not all officers can get to L35, only pilots. Other Officer aircrew trades have different capped maximum levels of attainment, for me it will be L30.

As for talk of L28 for SNCO aircrew (and I'm not saying they don't deserve it), that seems to contradict the concept (as supposedly pushed by the NAO) that SNCO aircrew will be cheaper!? There won't be much of a saving in terms of the difference between L35 and L28...

[Gnd]

All of this is true but you need to look at the wider piece. If a SNCO does time served then this is a good argument - quite expensive if taken as a single point.

If you add in the training burden for Pilot Officers (IOT and flying trg) who do only 6 or 16 then it adds up to a saving. A steady wage is easier to manage on a 3 year basis (gov way!!) but a roller coaster training pipeline is not easy to manage - remember the MFTS piece in this - a Civilian company with budgets fixed well in advance of the moment - might be a factor.

NCA Commissioning is great in branch and a full career path is a must but it gets very tight at the top, a better way might be to allow them (the great) to move within a band associated e.g. not on the ground (not that ATC/ground trades can’t apply – I know they are out there and quite highly qualified at that)


L28 would be used as a retention incentive, as PAS is at the moment, but I think it is to keep Army SNCO AH pilots in the main; not a bad thing if it helps others but must be bought into the mix of this thread.

[Sideshow Bob]

PS, Sideshow Bob, If you can't be arsed to get your Flt Sgt up (you said it ) why do you think you'd be competetive to be given a pilot slot? A little bit of work would be reqired mate.

There's a big difference between my professional ability and my attitude to the current RAF promotion selection process. I had the drive to become Above Average in the Air on Tristars within 2 years of my posting there (no mean feet for an Air Eng), I just don't believe in spending all my spare time working when I can be spending it with my family. The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted. If you are absolutely brilliant at your job but don't do the after hours stuff then you definitely won't. The thing you miss Arty is that not everyone wants to be Chief of the Air Staff, some people just want a good job and a family life. By the way I was competitive enough to get an Aircrew slot after 14 years in a ground trade, so I think I'd be able to do it again if I had to!:ok:

[Len Ganley]

The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted. If you are absolutely brilliant at your job but don't do the after hours stuff then you definitely won't.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Couldn't agree more.

[R 21]

"The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted"

Sounds like the talk of dead wood NCA who is bitter and twisted and will never make the cut to be a FS and that is coming from an above average NCA FS who doesn't do pet projects and odd jobs and is professional as a SNCO and in his role as NC Aircrew.

Heads down for in coming !!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"The problem with the current promotion system, even after all the tinkering, is that if you one of the breed who makes up for a lack of ability with doing all the bosses pet projects and odd jobs then you will probably get promoted"

Sounds like sound reasoning from an individual who has properly assessed the situation and made his own decision accordingly, and that comes from an above average Master who, because of the pension trap chose to jump through all the expected hoops to gain promotion :ok:

Maybe someone needs to do his CMT Pt 2 in order to brush up on his management skills :p

[Gnd]

Sounds like we are getting bitchy and even further off thread!!!

[Sideshow Bob]

Sounds like the talk of dead wood NCA who is bitter and twisted and will never make the cut to be a FS and that is coming from an above average NCA FS who doesn't do pet projects and odd jobs and is professional as a SNCO and in his role as NC Aircrew.
R21,
Please explain why I must be bitter and twisted to want to put my family before my job. (By the way how many secondary duties where you doing when you got your promotion? Come on be honest now:ok:)

[Vage Rot]

I believe that this is only a finger in the hole to stop the NAO getting its way - NCO Aircrew (front as well as rear). There is no reason (no Nuke) to pay exorbitant wages to non position holding Commissioned Officers when an NCO can do a better job at less cost - it has been proved to work. Officers for the Exec positions - NCOs to give long return of flying duty; cheaply!!!!

It has been done before and looks to be inbound - re-treads are just as expensive!!!

An excellent idea!! We could send the NCA crews on the really dangerous missions!!

On a serious note though, it would only cost less until the airline industry picks up again - then all the NCA pilots would demand more cash to stop them leaving! Bu99er!!

[R 21]

Sideshow

reading between the lines you complain about the system which you obviously know so well but refuse to do anything about it! As a professional NCA and a SNCO you surely realise these extra duties come with the rank?

I had only 2 secondary duties on promotion which I still have.

[davejb]

Sideshow Bob,
I'm with you mate. R21 - assuming SSB isn't making it all up (and I see no reason to assume he is) then he doesn't sound much like dead wood to me.

Oddly enough the standards unit (or whatever they're called these days) are pretty good at evaluating the professional capabilities of those they spend the week beasting... but secondary duties, and prowess at sports, have always (until I left at least) been the route to promotion - FS ought to be based on getting a B cat, MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team. (Other fleets etc will surely be able to suggest a sensible way to assess leadership that involves the actual work done rather than being Akela of the local Cub scout pack).

It's even more annoying when you see people on ground tours, who have perhaps successfully evaded a sqn for surprisingly long periods of time, getting promoted and/or commissioned....so here's another radical idea, no promotion if you aren't on a sqn....

Commissiomned NCO's - the good ones - should be considered as either 'people who needed longer to mature, but managed it' or 'people who were incorrectly assessed first time round'. Both should be very capable, and I don't honestly see why they shouldn't rise as far as anyone else - perhaps a surprise to some who aren't familiar with NCO aircrew but the ones I flew with weren't that bad at tactics, current affairs, geopolitics, common sense (often by the bucket load) etc - what else do you want in a senior officer on a battlefield? I've known a lot of officer and NCO aircrew, I didn't find them all that different - you had a similar mix of intelligence, common sense, knowledge, integrity, backbone.... both groups have their kippers (2 faced and spineless), both have people who could run the RAF frankly, given the experience.

[R 21]

Quick question:

Does anyone think this will increase the number of NCA applying for ground commissions. ie apply for WSOp commission sucessfull well done you return to your respective force after IOT or unsucessfull take a gnd commission as a second choice?

Personally I see more people taking commissions either flying (if your one of the lucky 10) or on the gnd but this will increase the out flow from the NCA Cadre.

Just a thought.............................

[bangin0ut]

davejb

'MACr resulting from displaying good leadership, which on the kipper fleet would mean you were a B cat FS lead and you ran a good team.'

A nice idea in principal and I agree 100% with this assumption! However in the world that has been created by our lords and masters, its a sad fact that an average or poor FS Lead is more likely to get promoteed over a good one if he is doing all the 'additional duties' that seem to be the prerequisite for promotion.

The same also applies to being assimilated to PA Spine, although I would have thought the clue was in the title for this one:ugh:

[Gnd]

FS Pilot 2008/9 (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article2332481.ece)

How could this possibly be wrong - I told you it might happen.

[camelspyyder]

not so good at rank tab recce eh Gnd...

this young lad though not a pilot is also not a FS

some GSK revision required for you...get yourself down to Force Development Training ASAP

CS:ok:

[Gnd]

Well done Camel, 1st place in the 'I'm a tw*t for stating the obvious' Oh how I wish I could recognise Pilots and RAF rank after 20+ years - get some time in and a sense of perspective. It was Ironcalism. (you’ll be able to tell me how silly I am for not knowing English now)

PS it was the Sun so there is no way it would be true - bet you didn't know that hey?????

[camelspyyder]

sorry Gnd, didnt quite understand your post - which of us is a t**t???

something else aircrew are taught to avoid is ambiguity!!

The SUN never said he was a FS...you did!:D

Oh and get some bl**dy time in yourself young 'un

[Old Fella]

Truckkie questions the capacity of a SNCO pilot to act as the Captain of aircraft such as the A400M, which is still not on any inventory and may yet "die on the vine", and also the C17. Just what extraordinary flying capabilities does being commissioned confer on an individual? Truckkie also says "We are all Officers first and Pilots/Navs second". What a pompous comment and certainly not one which is indicative of a team player. Truckkie, how do you feel about having a female pilot appointed as the Commanding Officer of a squadron at the time of the introduction of the C17 into service? We may only be Colonials out here in Oz, but we are way ahead of those with your mind set, so back to your O's Mess bar and sip on a few more chardonnay's, Pip Pip Old Boy!

[Gnd]

Camel,

You!
Read all the post s before thinking you are clever and adding nothing to the thread - hope your profile is accurate as mine might need amending - think on before you make assumptions!!! Never trust things at face value.

[Biggus]

Old Fella

I don't want to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but feel I should amplify/respond to the "..Officer first, aircrew second..." comment made by Truckkie which you consider "pompous" and not indicative of being a team player.

First of all I should point out that this is not (necessarily) Truckkie's personal view - rather it is the formal RAF approach/line.

Although it is a long time ago for me, when I went to OASC applying for Officer Aircrew I was very much told I would be an Officer first (with all the accompanying responsibilities) and aircrew second. Like most young men who just wanted to fly I nodded sagely, and gave back the answers I thought would sound best and hoped/looked forward to getting on to flying.

Then off to IOT, where officers of all trades are trained together, and the mantra "Officer first, pilot/nav/supplier/engineer....etc second" is drilled into everyone, responsible for those underneath you, etc, etc...

And so on generally throughout ones career, until fairly recent. At that point you can now criticise Truckkie, as he has indeed got it wrong.

It is now WARFIGHTER first, Officer second, Aircrew third.

So, if you still consider Truckkies comments pompous and not indicative of being a team player, which you are perfectly entitled to do, remember to have a go at the entire upper echlons of the RAF (all Officers) as it, with the Warfighter amendment, is the party line. Which doesn't necessarily make it right (although now unfortunately, as an older and wiser individual, and a Flt Cdr responsible for people's welfare/career development, I think it is...)

Indeed, are RAF NCA given the mantra SNCO first, aircrew second, during their initial training? I would suspect it might well be the case. No doubt someone will shortly enlighten me......(timing)....!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Truckkie questions the capacity of a SNCO pilot to act as the Captain of aircraft such as the A400M,

Just what extraordinary flying capabilities does being commissioned confer on an individual?

Truckkie also says "We are all Officers first and Pilots/Navs second". What a pompous comment and certainly not one which is indicative of a team player.

Old Fella, you are off the mark here.

The first bit - capacity and captain - are both hall marks of a pilot but there is no guarantee that any pilot, commissioned or not, has the capacity or captaincy skills to command an A400 or any other aircraft with an exacting role. The Captain is actually responsible for his passengers until such time as they can be handed over to a system. If the aircraft were to divert to some unusual airfield it falls to the Captain to negotiate with a handling agent or whoever parking, fuel, services, transport, accommodation etc.

By virtue of previous training the selected captain will be capable of these non piloting duties. If your SNCO was capable of all this then he would have been recommended for a commission to match the responsibilities of this enhanced role.

As for officer first, pilot second, sorry, you are way off beam. This is doctrine and taught from day one. It is aimed squarely at the wanabee who thinks that OASC, IOT, FTS and an OCU lead straight to a green growbag and a life exclusively at the sharp end.

You mentioned women, an irrelevancy in this argument.

To sum up, of course some SNCOs etc would make very capable pilots.
Some officers might also be best suited to the SNCO Pilot role.
Aircraft Captaincy of large passenger aircraft is an extension of a pilot's role and not one that all pilots can aspire to without lots of experience and capacity beyond piloting skills.

As an aside I remember a commercial pilot diverting to a military airfield. The taxi arrived and the crew departed with scarely a glance at the hundred or so passengers abandoned on the military airfield. That was poor captaincy.

[Old Fella]

Biggus In the 23 years of sevice I had most of the Pilots and Navigators I flew with were "Team" players first and foremost. The Officer aspect was rarely pushed to the fore which, in my humble opinion, went a long way to promoting harmony in the crew and did nothing to reduce the respect we had for those of senior rank. Rarely did the "I'm an Officer and you are not" be an issue. As a Warrant Officer I think I had the best of both worlds. I still keep in contact with many of my former crew mates, both commissioned and non-commisioned. Thankfully, rank is never discussed, just good memories of time spent working and having time off together. I accept that the mantra "Officer first" is drummed into those at OTS, however some take it far too literally. As for a commission being required to be a good captain, that I think is bunkum. As others have said, in the era of NCO pilots many were great Captains and could still be if given the opportunity.

[Pontius Navigator]

most of the Pilots and Navigators I flew with were "Team" players first and foremost.

Rarely did the "I'm an Officer and you are not" be an issue.

Thankfully, rank is never discussed, just good memories of time spent working and having time off together.

I accept that the mantra "Officer first" is drummed into those at OTS, however some take it far too literally.

in the era of NCO pilots many were great Captains and could still be if given the opportunity.

Team player - that is stressed too - "there is no I in teamwork".

"I'm an officer . . . " Quite. Good leadership does not require rank pulling.

In the NCO era these great Captains should perhaps have been granted commissions unless they did not wish to accept the trivia jobs that do go with a commission - OIC Wives Club for instance.

I was lucky to meet my uncle once at Amberley. He had been a Digger and had the idea that we would get out of our aircraft, swagger sticks and riding boots, and rest in the shade of a parasol, sipping tea, while our engineer (two Crew Chiefs) serviced the might beast.

He was surprised when we all mucked to, opening panels, plugging in power, connecting fuel etc etc.

Bottom line, officer pilots are no different from NCO pilots when operating the aircraft. The difference comes in application of air power. The commissioned equivalent of NCO pilots in the RAF was created in the 1950s and 60s with creation of direct entry commissions - the difference was in the educational entry requirements and assessed leadership.

[Biggus]

Old Fella,

I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that officers should go around with some stuck up, toffee nosed, "I'm an Officer and you're not" type attitude!

I was simply pointing out that the RAF expects, and treats, its Officer Aircrew as Officers first, in terms of career development, staff courses, postings, etc.

As a WO would you walk past some airmen acting improperly simply because you are aircrew, and not really a WO, or do something about it?

I have been in for nearly 30 years, on ME aircraft, and generally rate many of the NCA I have met as better aircrew, and dare I say nicer people, than some of the officers. I consider it has been a privilige to have flown with NCA.

I differientiate between somebody being an Officer, and being a career driven individual out to climb the greasy pole, looking down on those beneath them. One should not necessarily mean the other, (neither should officers not be team players) if in your experience it does then you have been unfortunate!

[Old Fella]

Biggus Is the inference that only airmen act improperly? To answer you question, if the situation dictated that I should make an issue of "improper behaviour" it would not, indeed did not, make one ounce of difference to me whether the individual concerned was an airman, a NCO or an Officer. By the same token, my whole point is that being granted a Commission does not necessarily make an individual any better than one without a Commission, whether it be in relation to flying skill or organisational ability. I am also intrigued by your line "simply because you are aircrew, and not really a WO". You might like to expand on that for me. As I said before. most of the Pilots and Nav's I flew with were team players first and foremost", so I feel fortunate to have known and worked with them. Every team has to have a Captain and that was accepted by all. Those that were not part of the team, whether Commissioned or not, I couldn't care less about.

[Pontius Navigator]

being granted a Commission does not necessarily make an individual any better than one without a Commission

I disagree with this although concede you need to define better.

Accepting that there will be even better indidivuals without commissions and some poorer ones with commissions, that's life. There will be others who, solely because they hold a commission will step up to the plate and accept responsibility.

You could see this on multi-crew aircraft will an all officer crew. Most will happily stand back and let the captain take responsibilty and give leadership - even sqn ldrs who will happily let a flt lt captain get on with it. This is team work in action as well with them practising followership. Without that commission many officers would possibly be happy to stand back in the crowd. Indeed on Myers-Briggs tests about 90% of the officers taking the test are natural followers not leaders.

[c130jbloke]

PN,

Bugger, you beat me to it with a very well written post :ok:.

Having SNCO pilots - good luck but I cannot ever see it happening. If it does come in, then it spells the end of SNCO rear crew. Why then have the same rank grade doing 2 dispirate roles on the ac and what is then to stop the RAF doctrine of down delegation and have JNCO (or SAC ) NCA and SNCO pilots instead ?

Just a thought.

PS Any NCA reading this and thinking about applying, my advice is DO IT, It was the best thing I ever did in my RAF career. As for the line about you have to be a good operator to be the leader - cr@p.

[Len Ganley]

c130jbloke

Why then have the same rank grade doing 2 dispirate roles on the ac

So why have commissioned back-enders then? Surely the same argument applies in both cases?

[c130jbloke]

They were the chief for that particular tribe of indians and took care of the admin / ACRs / bollockings, etc. You are correct, but they were the exception and were expected to take on a lot more than the line NCA guys/ girls ( more cash too though:) ). Then in 2004 somebody thought it was rubbish and stopped it.

And now its coming back.







Funny old world:uhoh:

[Len Ganley]

c130jbloke,

I am well aware of the functions of commissioned rearcrew, I was hoping you would elaborate on your argument that having SNCO pilots would mean the end of SNCO rearcrew, as there would be no justification for having the same rank grade carrying out differing functions on an aircraft.

Surely this already happens?

Certainly did when I was flying.

Pilot and Nav springs immediately to mind.:hmm:

[c130jbloke]

OK.

I see what you mean about Pilot / Nav ( both officer positions ), but my point is this and I am going to be blunt as I am looking at this from a political + cost aspect:


Pilot - get that, is in charge, has all the responceability and the greatest potential for screwing up, killing everybody and trashing a very expensive bit of kit.

NCA - does not have all of the above and ( to be blunt ) the status of the pilot - so why give them the same shiny badge (and cash, which is what this is all about) ?

Right now, BA and VA are not headhunting in crewrooms but that day will return. So the MoD has an interest in retaining its very best (ie from a trg + replacement cost / experience aspect) and in this senario that means pilots.

Now, if they do downgrade the pilot role /status to SNCO (and again there is a business case if they can save cash ) then the logical progression is to extend that to the aircrew who don't sign the F700 for accepting the ac and downgrade their status (+ pay too:*). IMHO, if you want to drive the bus, take the pain and do IOT.

Before anybody looks to flame me about dissing NCA..


I was proud to be one for a long time.

Now with being in the hard arse commercial aviation market, I know for a god given fact that no senior manager (= polititian) will pay more than absolutey necessay to get the product / effect required and will always look to undercut if they can (and NCA don't have the luxury of a union :hmm:) so this was not about being nice, but being brutally honest.

75% rates ring any bells ?

To finish, if you want somebody to fight for all of this, then get some officers........

[Wader2]

elaborate on your argument that having SNCO pilots would mean the end of SNCO rearcrew, as there would be no justification for having the same rank grade carrying out differing functions on an aircraft.

Can I jump in? End of some SNCO rearcrew maybe, like the stewards on the ST perhaps?

To add an historical persepective, at the start of WW2 there were certainly JNCO aircrew, usually WOpAG or telegAG if I am correct, essentially ground trades pressed into aircrew service to put bums on seats.

Later all aircrew were either promoted to SNCO or commissioned. That is probably the start of the rank creep and intended to compensate for the extra hazards and responsibilities associated with operations. The army might have made similar arguments for tank crews but they didn't.

If we accept down ranking from commissioned to SNCO pilot then you might argue by extension that you don't need all SNCO rearcrew either. Indeed it might make sense for sensor operators to be SAC/Cpl, in much the same roles at ATC or Air Space Management assistants on the ground, with a Sgt team leader and FS/WO above that.

But what about pay? Do you then have to pay additional pay to attract and retain suitable personnel? If you do, is there a cash saving?

Then we have a slightly weak argument of the accommodation and messing issues on detachments. The greater the rank spread - SAC to wg cdr - the greater the separation on the ground and the loss of crew adhesion. At least with an MPA crew they are only split into two messes or one hotel.

So really SNCO as a base rank will help crew adhesion whereas adding JNCO and airmen could create dissention.

[c130jbloke]

W2

Fair point(s).

One thing though, if you were alluding to the AS on 101 / 216, then they are not classified (from the RAF perspective) as aircrew. They are a ground trade currently assigned to a flying / flying related role - hence their crew pay as opposed to flying pay ( another can of worms when you look at PJI vs low seniority WSOp (ALM)).

[Len Ganley]

c130jbloke,

you appear to be indicating that all pilots should be officers because they sign for the aircraft and take all the responsibilities. This certainly isn't true on every aircraft type (I'm thinking kipper fleet here) and we know from long threads here that not every nation ( or even every branch of the British military) requires their pilots to be officers. I, like many others, have met individuals who could be held up as examples for both sides of the 'Could NCA make aircraft captains or do you need a commission to handle it?' argument.


When you mention retention, why do you think that the situation would be any different between officer and NCA pilots?


Now with being in the hard arse commercial aviation market, I know for a god given fact that no senior manager (= polititian) will pay more than absolutey necessay to get the product / effect required and will always look to undercut if they can (and NCA don't have the luxury of a union http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif) so this was not about being nice, but being brutally honest.


So there goes your argument for having only commissioned pilots. If NCA are cheaper, then why not?




To finish, if you want somebody to fight for all of this, then get some officers........

Precisely why commissioning opportunities in branch for NCA should be re-introduced and why people should go for it (although the bigger pension might have an impact as well:ok:)

[Wader2]

if you were alluding to the AS on 101 / 216, then they are not classified (from the RAF perspective) as aircrew. They are a ground trade currently assigned to a flying / flying related role -

I was and I was making no distinction as the WOp/AG early in the war were not classified as aircrew either. On the Mighty Hunter the case could have been made for a professional telegraphist to operate the comms suite rather than 'mis-employing' one of the sensor team. On rotation one of the dry team, and occasionally the wet team, would provided a communicator.

At the time, the AEOp had to create a perf tape off-line before sending a RATT message whereas a professional teleg could have transmitted online. The AEOp, OTOH, was fully trained in tactical voice comms but there was no reason why a teleg could not be brought up to speed there too.

The crux is crew pay, tiered flying pay, PA, FRI and flying instructional pay as was. Everytime trying to parr back to the least amount of money that can be used to buy the services of the willing.

Imagine a Harrier or Typhoon pilot giving up flying pay for the priviledge of flying those FJ :)

[c130jbloke]

So there goes your argument for having only commissioned pilots. If NCA are cheaper, then why not?

Because at the end of the day, the RAF is a (commissioned ) pilot centric force with its top level management diminated by.....:} Furthermore, as for looking at it from a commercial sense, forget it which in someways is correct as the RAF is about flying and fighting. Also, this is as much about status as it is money and with ever fewer numbers of pilots you can afford to keep the "quality". Last of all don't forget the (flawed) arguement that CAS has to be a pilot - tosh.


Perhaps its been tried before, but prior to the staffwork getting to a desk that would make the decision on NCA pilots, it would have to get past a lot of filters and at the end, the top guy from day one has always been a.....:} and a....:}







Quote:
To finish, if you want somebody to fight for all of this, then get some officers........

Which is just what the pilot cadre has, lots of them.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Because at the end of the day, the RAF is a (commissioned ) pilot centric force with its top level management diminated by"........................

Bit like this thread then, which was supposed to be all about NCA commissioning chances, no real surprises with the hijacking then :rolleyes:

[c130jbloke]

Not hijacked - it "evolved" :ooh:

[St Johns Wort]

No, it was hijacked by the 'NCO pilots for the RAF' lobby who are as bigger bores as they always were. It isnt going to happen, get over it.

Rear crew commissioning is underway as I understand it, with applications invited. Good luck to to all who feel the need.

I do believe that this thread is dead.

[ProfessionalStudent]

:D:D Well said StJW :D:D

I have it on good authority that SH Crewman Leaders will not be coming back on the forces that lost them, rather the new WSOs will have as full a career as any other Fg Branch officer. I don't see why they couldn't take on rearcrew issues as an SME either - it would appear that being Above Average in the air is one of the prerequisites for application.

So OIC Rations it is then... :E

[Old Fella]

St Johns Wort Those NCO Pilots for the RAF can probably use the correct wording as well as being "bores". ( Big a bores my highly educated one), just as C130jbloke needs to learn to spell (responceability???).

[Door Slider]

I have been a rotary crewman for ten years with time as a ground trade before that. I do not wish the current system of NCA and officer pilots to change; I fail to see any serious cash saving. Furthermore, with such a small air force the RAF can afford to be very picky about the calibre of pilots it recruits. Why settle for a SNCO pilot whom would not be deemed suitable for a commission when you can employ the cream?

It is good to see though, that a crewman is shortly to become the boss of a rotary Sqn. Well done!

[c130jbloke]

just as C130jbloke needs to learn to spell (responceability???).

More like get my spell checker sorted out :ooh:

[Pontius Navigator]

DS,

Well put. I have now served with two ALM sqn ldr and also met a wg cdr ALM. The wg cdr was 17 years ago and must have been off the shinies as he was too big for a Puma; a cnut.

The two sqn ldrs, one a quater century ago and subsequently OC the AA Training at Finningley was possibly the best SO2 I had come across at that time and I had worked with some very good ones. As an aside he was replaced by a nav, Wally by name, wally by nature - the contrast!

The other more recently and also far superior to the two navs be replaced.

The good guys do thrive and deserve to be commissioned.

[St Johns Wort]

:D Bravo Old Fella Bravo:D Thats the ticket, if you dont have anything constructive to add.............be a bore.

Its not RAF policy to have NCO pilots. It wont happen, I say again, get over it!

P.S. Go on admit it, you think that Im a pilot dont you?:cool:

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

"It is good to see though, that a crewman is shortly to become the boss of a rotary Sqn. Well done!"

Who? Where?

Be cryptic, I'll get it.

[c130jbloke]

I have heard of one ( unconfirmed ) who will be OC Ops at a secret helo base in Hampshire, but a Sqn boss .... ?

Hope its ture and best of luck to whoever it is.

:ok:

[m+m]

I have it on good authority that he's an ABBOriginal!

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Got it, ta.

[Blighter Pilot]

:mad: me! Really?

If it's who I think it is, we were Sgts on different fleets at the same time!

Good for him and the crewman mafia in general:ok:

[ProfessionalStudent]

And, yes, the new OC Ops at the aforementioned Hants airbase is indeed a crewman.:D

[c130jbloke]

And used to live in the room opposite to mine in the Sgt's mess - top bloke and very well done to him :).

[TheWizard]

Can't wait for all those 'Should have tried harder at school' comments when the new boss arrives:ok:

[ProfessionalStudent]

Can't wait for all those 'Should have tried harder at school' comments when the new boss arrives

And I should hope so too. He's not a pilot, after all...:E

[c130jbloke]

And I should hope so too. He's not a pilot, after all...

But he was an SNCO, so maybe we should bring back NCA pilots............:uhoh:






















Sorry, could not resist, i'm going now, bye........................:ugh:

[St Johns Wort]

Now that its underway and the stampede is on I suppose that only one question remains; are they going to get the same flying pay as Pilots?

[ProfessionalStudent]

StJW

Yes, they'll get the rates commensurate with their experience (ie a stepped increment every 4 yrs) with all non-commissioned breveted time to count (as before). The only thing they won't be entitled to, obviously, is Pilot's enhanced rate (after 12 yrs in receipt of fg pay).

[PFMG]

So seven months on has anyone actually been picked up yet?

I heard of a trawl mid-summer but no results that I know of yet.

Also did the CWO ever happen?

[TheWizard]

The second OASC Board has not taken place yet so no results will be out for a while. Possibly mid December.

[PFMG]

So when was the first?

Anyone know how many slots will be open this year for the successful few?

[PFMG]

The second OASC Board has not taken place yet so no results will be out for a while. Possibly mid December.


I've been (un)reliably informed the second board is sitting this week!

Seems like a long time for the guys who went mid-summer to have to wait for a decision.

[Flat-Rated@32c]

I attended OASC well over a month ago for the CWOS board, along with 7 other MACr. The second part of the regular board finished today, and manning will decide who gets the job/s over the next couple of weeks.
On the OASC morning and just prior to interview, Gp Capt OASC chatted to us and said that "the job of OASC today is to grade the candidates like a promotion board, and that would be there only part in the process". They would then pass the graded results over to manning. Remarkably, he then said that even if you were to come last on this selection board, you may still be the only guy to be offered a commissioned job ??
The talk of numbers for CWOS from this years' board is 1 X ALM (or possibly Eng - unlikely) and 1X AEOp. This is only rumour though. Awaiting results, but not holding my breath as there are some bad rumours out there.
:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

So,

you get an invitation to apply, OASC only grade you, its fairly safe to say that even if you do well, its a bums on available seats game. And, even if you are graded and come last, you may still make the cut.

Seems like a well thought out and transparent system. Perhaps next year, we could introduce an X Factor format, with Sqn Cdr's phoning in and voting.

(Good luck to all those awaiting results - I think commissioning is a positive step, but find the process a little puzzling)

[TheWizard]

We finally agree on something!!:)
It certainly is a bit of an eye opener!!

[TheMightyHunter]

It is my understanding that the first "new tranche" of NCA in branch commissioning volunteers will find out if they are succesful during the first week in Dec?

Rumours have it that they will not get near an aircraft for at least a tour and maybe not even then depending on the aircraft type or training throughput of ab-initios.

Sounds a bit up in the air to me!! I wait to hear Cranwells (obviously correct) decision with baited breath!

[PFMG]

Out some time this week apparently.

[TheMightyHunter]

Well?

Has anyone heard anything?

I heard a chap from Waddo got it and he didn't even apply for NCA, he was trying for 2 winged master race!

Anyone else?

[Spit the Dog]

I fella from Cranners and the selection boys didn't have to walk very far to tell him he had been successful.

[minigundiplomat]

SH STANEVAL Ch rep got it.

[R 21]

CWOS chap selected is a thoroughly decent rotary ALM well done big man ! Also there has been 2 back door offers to former WSOps who applied for commissioning as ATC, etc and whilst at Cranditz where offered to return as Commissioned WSOp's !

[camelspyyder]

Well R21, what would you do if you were halfway through IOT to be a stacker, and Manning suddenly offered you flying pay on top?

Bit of a no brainer for the 2 in question I would think.

CS

[R 21]

Camel

do you not think they should have competed against their peers to ensure we get the 'best of the best' ? Or should we just offer it to any old Joe?

[Diablo Rouge]

R21: Old record and not even a new tune.

They did compete against their peers, they put their head above the parapet, applied for and got a commission, (or at least a place at IOT, which for any NCA with the right attitude is a forgone sucessfull conclusion).

Yes they struck lucky; not the first and I doubt the last, who cares. Like all former airmen/SNCO they will either be awesome in their new career or oxygen thieves because experience suggests that few are simply average shags. Lets just hope that they are up to the job and are able to balance career and new responsibilities (to their subordinates) without being a tit.

[R 21]

Diablo

I agree, I truely hope they are the business and look after the lad's and lasses as best as they can. My only question is if they had gone into the current competition mix would they have been sucessfull ? They might have been but I guess we will never know !

Wishing them all the best !

[camelspyyder]

R21, I did have a similarly dubious attitude to the 2 in question when I heard about it.

To be truthful we didn't welcome them with open arms when they arrived on our unit.

Since then both have been given a lot of responsibility and are putting in the sort of effort we all expect, without alienating any of the NCA in their areas.

Whilst I agree commissions should be offered to the best candidates, no-one can blame these guys for accepting the generous offer they received.

I hope more of us get the chance of commissioned service in fact, then we can stop moaning about our leadership and try and do a better job than the poor ones do at present.

Seasons Greetings

CS:)

[Unchecked]

When you talk of CWO, do you mean College Warrant Officer, or a different post?

[Tiger_mate]

When you talk of CWO

Commisioned Warrant Officer: ..or fast track commission??

[R 21]

CWOS - Commissioned Warrant Officer Scheme

[PFMG]

Flat -rated said,

Remarkably, he then said that even if you were to come last on this selection board, you may still be the only guy to be offered a commissioned job ??

And it appears that the only CWOS offer was to a Loadie (not taking anything from his achievement - well done) but does it follow that there was never an AEO position available. If so it makes a bit of a mockery of getting the guys to OASC just to jump through a pointless hoop.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Flat -rated said,



And it appears that the only CWOS offer was to a Loadie (not taking anything from his achievement - well done) but does it follow that there was never an AEO position available. If so it makes a bit of a mockery of getting the guys to OASC just to jump through a pointless hoop.

Not for one minute saying it was the case but it could simply be that none of the AEOP's were up to the mark :ok:

[Flat-Rated@32c]

Guys,
be carefull what you say on here, because even last Friday, the Sqn Boss could not get a straight answer out of manning. It would be unfair for all the guys waiting for news to hear through the grapevine.
Also the Sgt WSOp from Waddo who has been selected for PC, applied for and was selected for Pilot last year, only to discover he was too long in the leg. He then applied for and deservedly was selected for PC from this competition, unlike the two Cranwell cadets.
The grapevine suggests that the ALM has been offered CWOS, and that he has been openly discussing the fact that he has been selected for quite a few weeks. This all fits together nicely, as at the very outset of this process, it was suggested from a number of extremely reputable sources that only an ALM would be offered a CWOS slot.
I do not personally know the ALM concerned, but I wish him well. It will be interesting to see if he simply changes rank and remains in post flying? It was stated by manning that anyone selected for CWOS would be doing a shi$%y desk job for the rest of their career?
Hopefully their will be some actual news this week - good luck to all!!
:ok:

[PFMG]

Sorry SFFP I can't agree with that train of thought.

All the CWOS candidates were pre-boarded via a vigorous sifting process. I cannot think that a bunch of high calibre Masters went through that then were deemed to be a load of no-hopers by OASC.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sorry SFFP I can't agree with that train of thought.

All the CWOS candidates were pre-boarded via a vigorous sifting process. I cannot think that a bunch of high calibre Masters went through that then were deemed to be a load of no-hopers by OASC.

Next time you are at work have a look around you and ask yourself that question again. There is no rhyme nor reason at times as to how the selection process works and in this case it could be that all the AEop candidates were simply not good enough.

If you work on the premise that it's not a numbers game then there really can be no other conclusion :ok:

[PFMG]

If you work on the premise that it's not a numbers game then there really can be no other conclusion


Ahh. My point exactly :ok:

[St Johns Wort]

Perhaps you should obey the 1st rule of holes.......

[Could be the last?]

CWOS aside, Why would we want more AEOs/TACCOS? There are already more than we can shake a stick at, and with limited platforms for them to work on, how can they be justified?