Military aircraft and minima

[flog]

I was at YMAV last night for the airshow and late in the piece there was a cloud base at about 250'. The ILS was out by NOTAM. How the hell did the F/A18 and the F-111 make it in without breaking every rule in the book?

[Arm out the window]

When the weather's too bad to go IFR, go VFR!

[AussieNick]

the DDTL approach mate :}

[VH-XXX]

The military use night vision equipment in some aircraft and the F111 from memory is equipped with terrain following radar. I don't think getting into the flat open plains of Avalon would cause them much grief. I think I could get into Avalon with 100ft cloud base and a Garmin 296.

Remember that Civilian rules don't apply to the military anyway, hence why you will see the Roulettes exit a loop over or towards the crowd when everyone else keeps more like 500 metres away.

When your equipment fails as Nick says, the DDTL approach is the most appropriate.

[The Green Goblin]

How the hell did the F/A18 and the F-111 make it in without breaking every rule in the book?

PFM Mate :D

[Konev]

as XXX mentioned, military jocks are not bound by civilian rules.

"sorry sir, we cannot bomb that building as a falling object from out aircraft might hurt or damage people or property on the ground"

yeah its a overboard example but its slightly amusing.

[palm3]

The minima for the ILS-Z approach to YMAV RWY18 is 290FT (258FT AGL) - consistent with the provided cloud base.

Edit: Oops, should have read harder - no ILS. The only plausible answers are:
a) the NOTAM was incorrect or cancelled (scheduled ILS maintenance is never allowed to proceed in IMC if it can be deferred, and the NOTAM covering such maintenance is typically longer in duration than the planned works), or
b) the cloud base was wrong. Another 150FT buys you a VOR approach to RWY36.

[Capt Fathom]

The ILS was out by NOTAM

Actually, the notam says the GP is out. Unless it has been changed?

[man on the ground]

The GP isnt out because of any fault or maintenance. It is switched off for the duration of every airshow at AV due to ground infrastructure infringing on the appropriate ares. Thus it cannot be switched back on quickly; not until next week and everything is cleared away.

[the reo]

No offence but if you're on the ground you don't have a minute by minute assessment of the cloud base. Without a defined height marker do you really think you can pick the difference between a 250' and a 350' cloud base.

scenario 1 (you can write the others) - hold melb as your alternate, arrive with enough fuel to shoot X many approaches at Avalon then divert to Melbourne. Just because the met man says there will be low cloud doesn't prevent you from flying the approach. If you have sufficient vis etc at the IAP minima, Guess what - Go ahead and land, if not shoot the MAP and come back around.
Nothing illegal about it.

[VH-XXX]

Today was interesting at Avalon.

The F111 didn't fly because the cross-wind was too great and there was water on the runway.

"Sorry Sir, we can't bomb the enemy because there's too much crosswind!"

[gutso-blundo]

Too much crosswind for the 111 maybe, but the bombs don't have such limitations :E

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Not privy to the Mil gear. If say our F/A 18s have the full mil GPS which they should....then I wouldn't mind guessing they do not need a GS to get down.

Good effort just the same. Went missed once and got down the second time. Pig down in one. Good TFR demo during the shoot-up. Pig was below the fog deck..very impressive.

Saturday wash-out, and son went today for another near wash-out. At least he got to talk to Ricardo for five minutes after his show. Not bad, pretty cool test pilot and still takes the time to talk to a group of air force cadets.

[bentleg]

Too much crosswind for the 111 maybe, but the bombs don't have such limitations

There are risks that would be taken in wartime that it is not necessary to take in peacetime. The B1B did not fly either for the same reason. A Mustang had a go today but aborted the takeoff (and finished on the grass) due to excessive crosswind. CW was consistently at 20 knots (and often higher) directly across the runway. Have a look at the weather obs for Avalon (http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDV60901/IDV60901.94854.shtml)

I dont think the cloud base was ever as low as 250 feet. The viz did however drop substantially during heavy showers both today and yesterday. Yesterday J* orbited until the shower had passed.

[oldm8]

It is written somewhere that mil acft are not bound by civvy rules but in a practical sense this is not what really occurs. I am quite sure the hornet driver was using the same plate and the same cat d minima that anyone could print off the Airservices website. I know of one operator that decided not to obey a civvy clearance on one occasion and believe me it ended in tears!

[Tmbstory]

Maybe they installed a private GCA, zero,zero, no problem!

Tmb

[Konev]

think the RNZAF crosswind limits is 8 or 9 knots.