BA Sponsorship

[LessThanSte]

I remember reading something about this a few months ago, rumours that it may be coming back. Ive just got off the phone with my auntie who was in London earlier this week and read something in one of the papers about BA looking for pilots, alledgedly through the sponsorship route. A quick look at their website suggests its still closed, but has anyone heard any more about it coming back?

EDIT - This is the post i was referring too - http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/355552-british-airways-cadet-programme-start-again.html#post4606514

[James D]

Ive just got off the phone with my auntie who was in London earlier this week and read something in one of the papers about BA looking for pilots, alledgedly through the sponsorship route

Sounds pretty conclusive then?!

[LessThanSte]

Thanks for that helpful reply. The reason i put this post was because ive not, as yet, spotted it anywhere else!

[shgsaint]

It is just a rumor and would highly doubt BA would actually go through with it. Why would they want to risk the financial burden of setting up an ab-initio scheme which would likely cost £70k+ per person. Especially when there are 3-4 very good FTO's about that are doing this for them and still churning out cadets every month? BA don't need to pay any up-front costs and they can still have the pick of recently qualified cadets.

I'm sure BA have better things to spend their money on. Or should I say not spend their money on. If they sponsor someone to go to one of these FTO's that are already set up then I would question why they're wanting to take on that financial risk with no guarantees that someone who passes their selection tests actually get through the course. The failure stats maybe very low but BA would still be accountable for the costs. At the minute they avoid that risk by only paying for someone who is already qualified. Thus all the major training costs have already been covered.

Sorry mate but I think this is one rumor that will never materialise. At the minute I would say it just doesn't make good business sense. If it does turn out to be truen then I'll be interested to read BA's justification of doing it. Especially in todays economic climate.

SHG.

[LessThanSte]

This is more or less the view i was taking on the whole thing, having not seen the 'article' in question. She had mentioned that it said something about the fact that their flight crew is getting quite old and theres a requirement in the next couple of years to head towards recruiting new pilots.

When i heard it i pretty much said the same as that in the post above, but thought it would be worth an ask none the less

[David Horn]

I wonder if BA will ever take cadet pilots again? Presumably it makes better business sense for them to accept only DEP in future, especially if they turn up with an A320 type rating and an unfrozen ATPL.

[HeathrowAirport]

This is good news, considering an Airline I have expressed prior interest working for. Whats the min age I can start Training, and is this method via oxford or some other organization?

Regards,

Robbie

P.s: I do know it has not started up yet and just a rumour. But just any Info on what I have said would be good.

[LessThanSte]

Robbie, i dont know specifically, as details dont appear to exist at the moment (oweing to the fact that the schemes been closed for 3 years or so!). Im assuming that IF it reopens the industry publications would be a good way to find out first of all.

As for qualifications, i'd expect it to be tough. A degree would i expect be prefered.

[HeathrowAirport]

LessThanSte,

Yes I am working on me GCSE's at the moment, I already have one, I took one early so thats a good thing I suppose, taking GCSEs Early. I got a C in maths predicted an F, So I was very pleased. Now I am targeting a B/A, its amazing how life changes aye?

I am on an A with my coursework for ICT, and I havent even entered the exam yet. I got a B on my science ISA, and I got a C on the Year 10 Modulars, Now I am getting C's in the mocks. But I am pushing all the way.

Lets just say I am predicted for the 5 A*-Cs including maths, english and Science. I have chosen 4 A Levels, ICT, Maths, English Literature & physics.

And Becuase I have done some sort of recording/interview and due to my special needs (behaviour issues when I was younger) I get a good chance of getting into Oxford University or cambridge were I would take a Physics Degree.

I dont know if the above is good, I am impressed with it. The shocker is maths though, my least favourite subject I am cruising at.

Regards,

Robbie

[nick14]

They have 150 pilots in the hold pool waiting for courses,

They also have a huge selection of out of work pilots, people wanting to move due to lowered T+C's.

I have very little hope of the scheme ever returning.

Good luck all
Nick

[skyhighbird]

Yes,

I remeber the original post and if true, made me want to never fly BA ever again, let alone fly for them.

Hundreds of low hour cadets looking for jobs, integrated schools (with "affiliations to BA"...) still spitting them out as if the recession has by-passed them, many pilots made redundant etc so why on earth would BA want to start up a sponsorship scheme with money they haven't got???

Apparently the reply to this question on that thread (not posted by me) was that BA don't think the pilots coming out of flight training (including those at OAT et al) are not only technically NOT good enough, but don't have the "personality" to work at BA - hence they wanted their own selction scheme intitially before feeding them into OAT or whatever.

If this is true, my only reply was WTF!!!!! Who do BA think they are. Hundreds (perhaps thousands) of low hour cadets on the market now and in the next few years and they can't find a handful with "BA personality"?

:mad::mad::mad:

This post I have quoted below from Corsair hits the nail right on the head?

'When the quality of qualified pilots is not good enough'. I have to say that is breathtaking in it's arrogance and snobbery. British Airways is just another airline. Just another bloody airline, like all the other airlines. BA pilots are not supermen, not the topguns of the airline world. They're just airline pilots. More than that they are people just like everyone else. They are no better than Virgin pilots, BMI pilots, Ryanair pilots and Aer Lingus pilots, some of whom I have to say have a similar attitude to BA.

I know several BA pilots, they don't walk on water or leap buildings with a single bound. They're just people. They also tell me that BA isn't the be all and end all of being an airline pilot. It's just another job.

If BA's recruters can't get snough 'superior' pilots to apply to the 'world's favourite airline' then maybe then they probably believe their own hype.

The truth is that for the most part BA recruiters came through the Hamble system and they can't can't seem to let it go. It's nothing more than snobbery.

Dicuss!!!!!!

I hope that this scheme does not take off. It would be an insult to the people I read about every day (and at times make my heart break) here on Pprune who have sold their life away and can't get an interview let alone a job.

[ford cortina]

It won't there are hundreds even thousands of new 250 hours pilots out there looking for a job. Then there are all the pilots who have lost jobs recently. BA is a business, it does not make commercial sense to start training lots of Pilots at BA's expense.
The shareholders would never go for it..........:eek:

[skyhighbird]

Ford Cortina,

the sad thing is that even the most ridiculous of rumours are made based on some element of truth.

Which means God Airlines (oops Ba sorry) don't think that the thousands of pilots out there are good enough.

250hr Mod guys aren't even good enought to tie BA's shoe laces so I wouldn't put this little stunt past them. :mad:

I hope this rumour is exactly that. Because if it came to fruition during a time when thousands of pilots out there don't have a pot to p!ss in, I would see BA as lower than Ryanair in the way they treat low hour cadets.

[ford cortina]

Skyhighbird.....so true.

I did some of my type rating at BA's training camp, Cranebank. I remember talking to a BA TRE, he had two new cadets with him and was telling us that even they had to pay for their type rating with BA.......

[nick14]

Ford Courtina,

I really struggle to believe that BA cadets are paying for their TR......

They do an additional JOT course paid for by the company and then start on TR at a cadet salary. In BA its the seniority that matters.

Nick

[ford cortina]

Nick14, only reporting back what I was told.

I am a fellow 737-NG driver, but not for the flying harp.
best of luck

[air_wolf]

New entrants into BA dont pay for type ratings.

Chances of BA starting up a sponsorship scheme in the next couple of years = 0. Not gonna happen.

If BA were flush with cash I think they might be interested in some sort of part sponsorship, mainly because they'd get far more applicants to chose from (rather than the relatively limited pool that come out of oxford,ctc,fte etc) and they could also get the flight school to tailor the training.

skyhighbird (& corsair), think your posts are way off the mark and unfairly critical. what's wrong with BA wanting to pre-select their future pilots from a larger pool of candidates? Flybe, cityjet etc already do it. I assume you also think that "250hr Mod guys aren't even good enough to tie Flybe/cityjet shoe laces so I wouldn't put this little stunt past them"???

[ford cortina]

As I said a British Airways Type Rating Examiner, told me and my TRE at Cranebank, Heathrow Airport, London, England, in 2006.

He would have no reason to lie, neither do I as I am one of those ex Modular guys, who has a very good job on the Boeing 737 Classic and NG, with a very good company, no training bond and no debt.

Just passing on information that is all, what you choose to do with it is your concern not mine and for the record there was no grassy knoll.

[air_wolf]

Well I'll just choose to dis-regard the information cos I know from first hand experience (ie not something i heard off my auntie who read it in the paper) that its incorrect. :ok:

[ford cortina]

Not worth my time:=
Head and sand comes to mind.
Now if you will excuse me I have to fly to France:ok:

[Re-Heat]

BA has struggled to find modular people who fit their mould. This is not to say that they lack skills, but there is something of a culture at BA into which people have to fit to ensure the operation works smoothly. They are at liberty to pick and choose, since they offer some of the better terms in the industry, and as such are entitled to hold their views. It is not the be all and end all of a flying career.

Furthermore, BA take people who are mature and of low risk. They tend to have an aversion to people who literally bet it all on a training course and have absolutely no backup plans or career.

Having said that, there are also many exceptions, and indeed modular chaps with low hours who succeeded in BA in the past, and will indeed do so in the future.


BA have severely cut capacity. 2 Jumbos parked at Cardiff, all 757s sold to a third party, along with a 25% reduction in s/h Gatwick flying - this necessitates no further cadet recruitment.

However, they were on the verge of launching a new cadet training programme last year (reputed to be along MPL lines), but in light of the dire economic climate have placed that on hold indefinitely. New recruits over the past 5 years have been integrated only (CTC being the exception as it was not until recently an approved integrated course, but instead had the facets of an integrated course - continuity of training etc).


BA have never charged for TRs.

BA do operate as a commercial operation, and will happily take your cash to teach on a self-funded TR, or indeed charge for other operators. Never for their own new employees.

[air_wolf]

ford cortina - having (struggled) through a BA type rating i know for sure that you dont have to pay for it.
enjoy france:ok:

[ford cortina]

I stand corrected and I will, the down side is, that I am an the Classic today not the NG as promised, bummer:ok:

[jez d]

However, they were on the verge of launching a new cadet training programme last year (reputed to be along MPL lines), but in light of the dire economic climate have placed that on hold indefinitely.

Re-Heat is correct.

jez

[cc2180]

The comments about not getting good applicants from the FTO's is describing the fact that other airlines had their own sponsorship schemes and were taking the best cadets before BA could take a look at them.

Its not about piloting skills, its about being the right person to fit in at BA.

[skyhighbird]

Air Wolf (and also to Re-heat),

this thread is regarding BA - hence my comments pertaining to BA.

So my comments are "unfairly critical and way of the mark". Sorry but I think Re-heat made my point completely.

"BA has struggled to find modular people who fit their mould. This is not to say that they lack skills, but there is something of a culture at BA into which people have to fit to ensure the operation works smoothly"

Excuse my lack of "David Brent" terminology knowledge but what does the above paragraph mean in non-BS English?

"Don't fit their mould"? "Ensure the operation works smoothly?":mad:

Are there any other BA guys out there to explain the above?
Have we now added more fuel to the mod Vs Int debate?
Integrated students have better personalities?
Better pilots?
The type of person you "can sit next to on a 8 hour flight"...zzzzz.
Do they speak differently?
Do they walk differently -i.e its required to walk around with a banana stuck up their ass?

No offence BA pilots out there - But if you are all of the same culture and agree with what re-heat said, then I wouldn't particularly want to sit next to you for an 8 hour flight.

P.s I look forward to comments saying "If that's your attitude, you will never get into BA..."

[corsair]

Seeing as I was quoted. I might as well join in. It is likely that if there ever is any cadetships again they will be along MPL lines. But I would doubt there will ever be sponsorships as such. Maybe a partial sponsorship but most likely a loan arrangement. what's wrong with BA wanting to pre-select their future pilots from a larger pool of candidates? Flybe, cityjet etc already do it. The answer is nothing. My comments at the time are slightly out of context on this thread and referred to a specific post which I quoted at the time. The implication of it was that of all airlines, BA only took the best pilots and were struggling to find pilots good enough to fly for them. That seemed to me to be the height of hubris as if BA pilots were some kind of elite and all the rest of us were some kind second raters not fit for a command. Particularly modular trained pilots. Whether this really their attitude is another point altogether. No one would accuse Flybe or Cityjet of this attitude and there are excellent reasons for pre selecting cadet pilots. But to imply BA is some kind of exclusive club is ridiculous.

Of course a lot of starry eyed youngsters fall for this as witnessed here. Only BA is good enough for them. As it happens this is unlikely to help them get into BA.

In any case, no one should hold their breath hoping for sponsorship from any airline into the near to medium term. They'll just have to settle for second rate training and have to work for a second rate airline like Virgin or BMI. :suspect:

[skyhighbird]

Corsair,

as you posted on a public forum, I took the liberty of copying and pasting your post of which I hope you don't mind.

You are right there is nothing wrong with BA and whoever if they wish to ignore the thousand low hour cadets out there. That is up to them - just like it is up to MO'L to squeeze every penny out of cadets.

However I am annoyed by the very reasons you mentioned - the perception that the BA pilots are an elite force.

Re-heat's reply (which I quoted in my rant) illustrated my point perfectly. Weird and wonderful management words stringed together to make some nonsense paragraph that only fuelled my rant.

However I am here to learn and would be very grateful to have a translation of exactly what Re-heat said. Please - don't wrap it up in cotton wool. Tell it how you feel :ok:

I was also amazed at the contradiction.

BA have an aversion to cadets not having a back up plan and beting it all - i.e integrated.

So in that case, surely the mod guy who had a house, family and kids to support, full time job, distance learning ATPL and all the organisation that goes along with that is the best candidate for BA? I'd rather be sitting next to that guy with all those life expereinces than the 19-25 year old who went straight into integrated training who can only tell stories about the time they went to the pub.

Am I missing something here?

[wobble2plank]

skyhighbird:

Am I missing something here?

All you are missing is that BA still have the ability to pick and choose who they wish to recruit.

BA pilots are no more 'sky gods' than any other pilot working the line for a big company. The assessment that BA gives on its interview process is purely based on commercial and personal preferences. The commercial side wants to train you as quickly as possible for as cheaply as possible but to the standards and SOP's that the training department wish to achieve. The personal assessment, done by the HR weirdos and a pilot, looks at whether, they consider you to be suitable to fit into the organisation. Other companies do it differently, BMED was a friendly chat with the Chief Pilot, different approach but, ultimately, the same result. If they don't like you, you ain't getting in.

There are many, many perfectly ordinary guys flying the line at BA and most, if not all (bound to happen with 3500 pilots), are great to fly with both from a professional aspect and a personal.

Don't get hung up about the colour of the plane, just enjoy the job, fly without the need for paperwork and always land rubber side down.

Unless the situation gets dire and the T's & C's of BA plummet even more, then this is likely to be the scenario for the foreseeable future.

edit:

Forgot to add, the only reason AFAIK for the preference between modular and integrated is that the training department can pretty much 'guarantee' the previous training structure of the integrated cadet as averse to the possibly 'unknown' training background of the modular. Thats all there is to it.

[skyhighbird]

wobble2plank,

you are right and I completely agree with you - BA can pick and choose who they want when they want.

However what gets up my nose is the way they shut out low hour mod cadets without any good reason apart from - we can so we will. When this is questioned by those on pprune, the replies come across as arrogant- from those that are actually flying for them. (there are some replies that obviously come from current employees).

I can't tell from your post whether you are a pilot with said airline but even your explanation "the training department can pretty much 'guarantee' the previous training structure of the integrated cadet as averse to the possibly 'unknown' training background of the modular" has the same arrogance and discrimination. - even though as I said you may not be a BA guy.

I find this an insult to mod students (I am not one btw). Does this mean that a mod structure may have some "quirks" that mean a low hour cadet might raise the flaps when he should have raised the gear instead?

Does this mean that the guy who juggled a full time job, family and ATPLs and still managed to get his/her fATPL is less worthy compared to the 20y/o that put his parents' semi at risk?

Frankly, as our NATIONAL airline and "WORLD's" favourite airline, I think the recruitment (if they ever did low hour cadets again) should be from a national spectrum rather than just getting those from Oxford.

[Re-Heat]

I see why you are confused - let me explain.

Every company - aviation or not - has a culture. There is not such thing as absolutely subjective recruitment - no such thing as simply selecting those with the best grades. It comes down to impressions made on the day, and ability to gel with those interviewing you. This is not isolated to BA alone, but is common across all businesses (at least those in a position to choose).

BA has, what it believes, a honed training system that has been developed from years of experience. Others have other systems, that differ in many respects. What they want therefore are people that fit that training system and culture.

So long as you are not one of the starry-eyed people focussed only on BA, you should not be offended by this. It is pragmatic, suits some people, and won't suit others. An organisation tends to be set in its ways - if you don't agree, a one-man army to change it is hardly conducive to a positive working environment.

Integrated v modular in BA is somewhat developed from the self-selection argument. Self-selection is not thought positive, both in BA and many other airlines - not for the reason that modular students can't handle it (many can) or that they will never recruit them (they have), but that the likelihood of success on an intense type-rating was demonstrated (a number of years ago) to be significantly lower. With the ability to choose whomever they liked, their preference remained for integrated students - the supply was there (and they of course knew the exact product, having developed it with BAe at Prestwick - now Jerez, and working with Hamble / Oxford / Cabair students in the past as well).

Of course, this does not apply if coming from another airline with experience.

They don't like piecemeal training, lack of continuity, and any possibility that retraining will be required in the sim / on the line. Hence, high preference for integrated people who have planned a continuous training course at one location, where their records are available, with a known quality product. Hence, why they don't like people who are starry eyed, train at each stage as and when they can afford it, and bet the ranch on the less safe option (in their eyes).

The business itself is quite frankly a palava as well. They need people who can deal with waiting 20 years for command, a disaster of an operation at Heathrow, and operating at a high level with premium customers.

It is one of many companies in the UK, but one that employs just a huge number of pilots.

The question is - do you prepare yourself for any eventuality, and be in a position to step into a business that controls half (the present - perhaps not the future) of UK pilot jobs, or turn your back on that segment entirely.

Does the culture fit - RAF types, old sponsored types, recruits from other airlines - many who were modular, tours, longhaul, shorthaul. Or do you prefer to be at home every night with easyJet?

Suits some, not others - they need to match people to that operation, and in the simple fact of selecting people and rejecting others, that is not arrogance in itself, but simply a measure that they can indeed pick and choose.

[LessThanSte]

All this debate is great (if not repetitive!), but isnt really answering my question which was;

'In a London paper there was a story/advert (i dont know, i havnt seen it) about British Airways and 'Sponsorship'. Has anyone else heard anything that may suggest its coming back?'

The rights and wrongs about whether or not they 'should' could be debated ad nausem but its quite a simple question, really. Yes theres a few answers that would suggest that it isnt, in which case why would the story have appeared in the first place?

P.S. Im attempting to find out which paper it was in and will let you know when i find out (IF i find out!)

[cc2180]

You have real complex about thinking other ppl are better than you.

I dont know how on earth you get arrogance from wanting to guarantee someones training, it is sensible. They can obtain as much information about you aswell as confirming a standard of training.

Stop trying to turn it into a social class debate. Take the chip off your shoulder.

Lessthanste: It has been answered many times, both here and on previous threads. It wont be back for years. They were planning on it, and will probably start things rolling in a few years when the economy is back.

You have as much chance getting into BA through an FTO now, as you would at getting onto their sponsored scheme if and when it starts.

Dont plan your life around a potential BA cadet scheme.

[Re-Heat]

I did answer your question. It was postponed and never advertised.

Re-heat's reply (which I quoted in my rant) illustrated my point perfectly. Weird and wonderful management words stringed together to make some nonsense paragraph that only fuelled my rant.
It was most certainly not management speak. It was a way to illustrate what became policy at a time when very few people were doing classic modular training at all - people at that time took integrated courses, came from another airline, or were ex-RAF. And why would they change when the pool of people who qualify for their requirements is still sufficient, known, and low-risk.

[wobble2plank]

Simple, it's down to money. It's also nothing to do with any of the pilots except the training department as to who gets accepted and who not.

Financially and statistically it has been proven that low houred (as in ab-initio) modular pilots have more difficulty in passing the type rating than those who have completed an integrated course. The ability to assess a student (SEP entry pilot) based upon concise, coherent written reports is a whole lot more enticing to a bean counter counting the training budget.

It is nothing to do with which is better and which is worse it is all to do with reducing the cost of the training package by picking those students that, in the opinion of the training managers, have a greater chance of passing the course to the required standard first time without repeats if possible. Next time you want to take a look at the cost of a 4 hour sim detail. As to the same quirks between the MOD and Integrated, then the integrated student will, hopefully, have had these 'quirks' reported thus enabling the selection to be done knowing those quirks and not after ward in the sim.

BA do take modular pilots, however they tend to take them as DEP after they have had a few hours in other companies. There are an awful lot of Easyjet and Ryanair pilots in the RHS at the moment who were, previously, modular.

There is no arrogance, holier than thou or malicious attitude. It is purely down to cost, cost and more cost.

Some might say that you have a particular axe to grind on this one?

As to the sponsorship, as Re Heat has constantly replied, it was toyed about last year as an integrated scheme to be run along the lines of the old Prestwick college. With the downturn all ideas have been shelved. When the up turn arrives though the company will, undoubtedly, want to be in a position to 'just add water' and expand to a position where they can take advantage of the up turn. Start looking then! Flight International always carries the BA recruiting adverts.

[skyhighbird]

Reheat

I think that was perhaps the best explanation I have seen on pprune - or anywhere else and I think that post should be a sticky and substituted for the Mod Vs Integrated debate posts that regularly appear here.

CC2180 - this is a pilot wannabee forum. Wannabe Frueds should visit a different one. I have no complex of ppl being better than me. Perhaps I was just trying to get to the bottom of why a majority have the door closed in their faces before they even knock.

I now know that fingers were burnt once (I wont ask for possible reasons why) with mods on an intensive type rating course - hence the reluctance to take the blinkers off. Fair enough.

Air-wolf. BA haven't lost my bag. I have an "understanding" with our team sec that if I have to be posted out somewhere for a meeting, BA should always come behind 2 certain middle-east carriers, and one south east asian carrier. Nothing personal - with the ability to choose whoever I like my preference remains with another carrier :E

[skyhighbird]

No axe to grind. I certainly do not have ill-will towards BA that because I will choose the lesser-risk, more secure way of financing my way through flying the mod way, I won't get to sit in a BA jet as a low hour cadet (if they did indeed re-start this recruitment).

My love of flying came from trips to Duxford with plane spotting mad daddy, and enjoying watching a brother make air-fix models of Lancasters, B-17's, Spitfires and the totally cool TU-95 bear.

Unlike other wanabees, I have no intention of sitting in anything remotely "jet", at least not until I'm 40. Give me a Dash-8 (no jokes pls) or a Junkers 52 (dreaming) over an A320 anyday of the week - thats proper flying :)

A secure way of training (part time mod) means i never have to risk my house/car which is all fully paid for, so if I have to spend the next 10 years on 12K a year flying piston a/c, then I'll be living the dream and have no debts at the same time.

Thats flying the dream :)

[corsair]

Skyhighflyer, no problem with you quoting me. I think it's still relevant.

Lessthanste, it doesn't matter what newspaper it was in. It clearly isn't going to happen soon. Why would any airline spend money training ab-initio when they have the pick of direct entry pilots both employed and unemployed?

Reheat, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here:They don't like piecemeal training, lack of continuity, and any possibility that retraining will be required in the sim / on the line. Hence, high preference for integrated people who have planned a continuous training course at one location, where their records are available, with a known quality product. Hence, why they don't like people who are starry eyed, train at each stage as and when they can afford it, and bet the ranch on the less safe option (in their eyes). Now is that your opinion or one you attribute to BA or both? Your emphasis on the word planned is interesting. Of course it implies that only integrated pilots plan their training. My friend, now flying with an airline planned his training by going to a flight school and staying there until he qualified. It was full time, his records are available, and the main reason he didn't go to an expensive integrated school was because he didn't have the money. But because it's officially a modular course he is to be classified as a starry eyed risk taker (in their eyes).:suspect:

As far as I'm concerned the only difference between self sponsored integrated people and self sponsored modular is the amount of money they can raise for training. The implication that all or most modular trained pilots are poorly trained is insulting and wrong.

If BA has a problem with the quality of cadet pilots, then it's self inflicted. They have a preference for integrated often from 'certain' schools. Rightly or wrongly that's their decision. But there is a smaller pool of integrated people. At the moment all of them are self selected and have access to the money to pay for it and the time to spend at a residential school.

That's all that differentiates them from modular people who are self selected too but have less money and may or may not be able to spend a year and a half away from home.

I'm not surprised they can't find suitable people in integrated courses to fit in with their 'culture'. It's a smaller pool and given that the only basis for selection is their desire to be a pilot and having the money to pay for it, there's bound to be a disproportionate number who simply wouldn't fit in with BA's view of their ideal pilot.

None of that means they will sponsor pilots soon. Far more likely the mentored method as per CTC and others. I very much doubt the fully paid for sponsorship will come back for major airlines. Times have changed.

[Re-Heat]

It's not a policy of my design. Don't shoot the messenger.

[cc2180]

CC2180 - this is a pilot wannabee forum. Wannabe Frueds...
Im 24, and my posting history will confrim to you, I am indeed a wannabe. You have an inferiority complex. BA dont take cadet mods because they are an unknown risk, not because they are poor/dumb/common as you imply :rolleyes:


Ridiculous statements as above of conspiracy amidst other posters experienced backgrounds in this thread help to prove it.

Grow up.

[LessThanSte]

I think your missing the point. This isnt a discussion about whether it should or should not come back. WHY would there be something in the paper, unless its based purely on a rumour, if it wasnt going to happen. Surely something like that in a paper if untrue would be a pretty good way of getting sued?

As for me, im not really that fussed one way or the other. I realise its probably unlikely to come back but still.....!

[Otto Throttle]

Contrary to what appears to be the general consensus here, I don't find the idea of full sponsorship schemes returning to be all that far-fetched.

Training is becoming increasingly expensive, finance is going to be a great deal harder to raise, and the industry is becoming increasingly less attractive to prospective candidates.

Given that in the medium to long term, airlines will need to recruit once more, those airlines who do not generally attract their pilots from other airlines will therefore have to consider exactly where they intend to get their pilots from. Fully sponsored schemes may very well be the answer.

If you think I'm talking total cr@p, take a look at the situation the Aussie regional Rex found themselves in prior to the credit crunch.

As for BA, well, maybe they will, maybe they won't. Provided they continue to be able to maintain their relative position to the competition with regard to T+Cs, fleet variety and route structure, then they may just be an attractive enough proposition to satisfy their pilot needs through recruitment from other airlines. If they have a need for low hours guys, then if conditions are such that insufficient numbers are entering training who meet the criteria for employment at BA, then they too will have to consider sponsorship.

The rest of the discussion above is somewhat pointless. If you don't like the way BA or any other airline do business, then it's quite simple - don't apply to join them. I don't, so I didn't and I have no hang up about it one way or another. I have nothing against the airline or the people in it (I trained alongside the last BA sponsored course and the majority were a good bunch), it just isn't my cup of tea, so I went elsewhere and I'm perfectly happy with that choice. I suggest you all do the same.

[skyhighbird]

It's not a policy of my design. Don't shoot the messenger.

Re-heat,

you may just be the messenger but you explain so eloquently the BA mission statement for recruitment of integrated cadets with such swagger and arrogance that probably everything you said insulted every low hour mod out there. And your writing gives the impression that you are actually proud of the reasons behind the policy. Only integrated students PLAN their training? Wow.

Anyway. What I will do is apologise for taking this thread on a tangent. It was not intended. However it has been very valueable to read the truth.

[Re-Heat]

You missed the point. It is an explanation of why, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter.

The reasoning would be - one could plan all they like to do modular training through one school, but (with the exception of old CTC, or modular courses attached to Oxford or Jerez), you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.

Now, we all know that in this day and age, you can indeed get adequate training through Bristol, walk off to do a very robust training course at Exeter, and be in a great position. Simply put, in the late 80s / early 90s, the system was different, and BA had some incredibly negative experiences.

However, the powers that be want to maintain their present policy - they have yet to experience low-hour modular chaps (apart from the aforementioned minority) who have succeeded.

I would find it far more insulting to have this information hidden from me until the day I applied to BA, rather than - as is the case - them being very upfront that they do not consider low-hour modular people at the moment.

At least then, as a wannabe, I can make an informed choice.

For what it is worth, I think Otto is probably right.


I'm not going to reply again on this thread - I have tried to assist with some very independent and informative advice. I really won't bother if people are going to dig into my motivations for doing so. This is an anonymous forum for a reason.

[corsair]

My opinion for what it's worth is that airlines will no longer sponsor cadets. The bottom line is all important even for BA. It's fantasy to think otherwise. Times have changed. If and when BA select cadets again, the trainees will pay for their own training. The precedent has been set and is quite successful.

Re-heat with all due respect and I really do not want go down the ad hominen route but if you are a wannabee you have some serious illusions about the flight training business. you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers. Where are you getting this stuff from? Do you have any idea what you're talking about other than repeating some guff you've been fed from somebody or other with an opinion?

It's total bollicks. Sure it's possible to point to some flight schools that have a spotty record with students. Frankly I've met some integrated trained pilots who have been ripped off. Because they can't fly properly.

It's one thing for BA to have some sort of absurd attitude the modular pilots are somehow second rate and not worthy of consideration. It's quite another to actually believe it.

I suspect you have never been through the training process modular or integrated and are just repeating stuff you heard. Most of the time there is no fundamental difference in training integrated or modular. In an ideal world everyone would do an integrated course. This isn't an ideal world and people have to work their ambitions around their real lives. Hence the need for modular courses.

[Artificial Horizon]

I went modular and have been with BA for the past 4 years. Saying BA doesn't like modular students is b*llocks.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.

I disagree with this. Equipment and instructor experience is a demonstrable issue and none of the Integrated schools have much to shout about compared to several Modular schools out there.

However, going to certain schools does help to get into certain airlines at certain times. Those times are gone and not coming back anytime soon.

There is now one golden rule and one silver rule: minimize your debt & go slowly.


Modular wins.


WWW

[skyhighbird]

you are unlikely to get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers.

Wow. This just gets better and better :mad:

It is probably best you don't respond anymore. Because each thing you say gets more and more insulting that the hole you have dug is something you could never escape from.

[Re-Heat]

I am explaining their past reasoning, not my opinion.

AH - as you clearly know, since you yourself came from another airline, modular is irrelevant as a DEP. We are talking about low-hour cadets.

Corsair - I am not a wannabe, and you are far too sensitive. Take some perspective. If you had read my post, it would be quite clear to you that I personally do not believe in BA's modular restriction to some extent.

skyhighbird - as far as I understand, you don't actually yet have experience of the professional flight training market. Some modular training that people devise for themselves can be utterly terrible if they don't think about what they are doing. Some smaller schools can indeed rip you off entirely with no support network, poor continuity. Some are also fantastic. Take it as an education - not as an insult about something that you don't have any reason to be insulted about.


And for christ's sake, take WWW's advice in this market. This whole thread is completely irrelevant as BA are not hiring. I only got involved to counter some of the complete tripe on here, and yet it continues.

If you are going to post, have a read of the lot first, and realise that this is not my opinion but a statement of past fact on how BA recruited.

[clanger32]

I believe what re-heat was saying - and I actually can't quite see how anyone else is failing to comprehend this, perhaps READING all of his post before getting in an indignant rage and posting a reply might help - is that in times gone by it has been considered by some that the modular courses had sub-standard texts and course materials. I.E. this is a statement of how it was perceived [by a perhaps only a subset] historically. I don't believe that this is a statement of how Re-heat perceives modular training to be right now.

In fairness to re-heat, (s)he even goes on to say that this is clearly not the case any more and anyone with their licence knows that there are some excellent modular schools out there.

However, this doesn't change the opinion of those that are of such an opinion in the first place. Which brings us back to the original point of BAs recruitment policy. Perhaps in time it will change.

One other point. Generally speaking there is some form of vetting process to get into an integrated course, whereas there is not for modular. I am NOT going to enter into whether those entry tests are worth the electricity they use - it is true to say that undoubtedly they could be more 'selective'. The point is merely that they do have some selection. The ONLY selection criteria for modular is whether you can meet the requirements for a class 1 and if you have the money to pursue it to the bitter end.

It may well be that this is another contributing factor...99.99% of all the modular students I met were absolutely brilliant people, intelligent and very talented....but there are a couple of notables who stick out. You wouldn't have to employ too many of these (like the one who on partialling his CPL at the third attempt was celebrating 'passing' it wildly, not understanding that he HADN'T) before thinking there might be another way...

I should add, given that no-one appears to be in a "read it and try and understand what the author is saying" mood, that this IS NOT to say integrated is better. It's different and offers different pro's and con's is all.
I shall now await the flaming....*sigh*....another problem of pilots...every man Jack of us thinks they have to be the alpha male in the room...

[Rapha_BA]

I think Wobble2plank killed the arguement with extreme success....
Guys just read what he/she wrote,simple and straight to the point!

You are under ilusions and is a complete fantasy that an airline in the situation that BA is at the moment,would start such project.
They would P:mad:s off alot of crew,engineers,ground staff,unions,specially with the plan,for example,to save up to £82millions pounds from IFCE....

"so,lets save all that cash,in every sector,or even better,let's suck the blood of the majority of our work force,make them save for us,meantime we keep our wages unaffected,and ,by the way,lets do a cadet programme"....tutut,does this make sense?

I would not waste my time on this...

[Propellerhead]

Reheat is spot on with his objective look at the reasons behind the recruitment policy. Leave emotion out of it, this is business. End of story. If it aint broke then why fix it? If BA's recruitment policy works for them, why would they change it? If in the future they find it isn't working, then maybe they will change it, and maybe they would take modular people. Until then, they won't.

I think a lot of wannabe's perception of who the best airline's to work for is naive - mine was when I was a wanabee. bmi / Virgin / BA / EZY all have broadly similar cultures and people working for them, they all just offer different rewards, opportunities and different types of flying. It's all very well saying you don't want to fly a jet till you're 40 but most people are realists and have to compromise their dreams to fit in with wives, children, mortgages etc. The best advice is get to the company that provides the best career opportunities, the widest variety of flying, the best rewards, the most secure future, and the lifestyle that suits you. The younger you are, the more choice you have, as this starts to narrow due to seniority. Trying to find a company where you respect their ideals or philosophy is b*****cks. They're all broadly the same and are all run by fairly ruthless business realities. You are a comodity and they will get as much out of you as the market rate allows. Unfortunately the industry is currently in a race to the bottom in terms of terms and conditions and the latest downturn is just the latest example of this.

[corsair]

Trying to find a company where you respect their ideals or philosophy is b*****cks. They're all broadly the same and are all run by fairly ruthless business realities.

That's absolutely the truth. There may have been a time when an airline or any company was almost family. Some companies still pay lip service to it. It came from the time when you joined a company you stayed there to the pension. Not any more. It's even fading a bit from the military. The old Imperial Airways mentality.

Whether or not you are devoted to getting into BA or whoever, it doesn't matter. It's just another job at the end of the day. Except that in BA you'll have to wait that much longer to get command.

Take the first job you're offered because it may be the only job you're offered.

[smith]

Next time your auntie is in London can you ask her if she can find out what's happening at BMI? Thanks, Smith

[TheBeak]

To say you really know what you are saying so vehemently you really need to back up your position. What is the position that you hold that makes you such an expert? A GUARANTEED job huh? Until how recently? Your figures sound like those quoted by CTC (i.e. the 3-4% pass rate). So how are you qualified to give such great advice?

[TheBeak]

Then you wont mind sharing which FTO you are at and with which airline......you are already on and already GUARANTEED A JOB after all so you wont mind sharing......In what way is your training part sponsored? I would be very, very surprised if you are guaranteed a job and I think you might be very, very surprised when you finally qualify......

[agent.oen]

Really, the level of sarcasm and sneer can be too much on this forum. I've decided to remove my previous comments about European part-sponsored training actually in existence.

TheBeak, with selection pass rates of 3-4% and the few airlines offering part-sponsored training, don't you think that giving out details such as FTO, airline and other details will hinder my anonymity?? I'd have to be daft to post such data on a public forum if I want to remain anonymous.
And yes, the job is guaranteed. No 'nasty surprises' as you are trying to imply.

To the other readers, some of you may choose to believe in what I'm saying; the majority would probably do their best to prove my words worthless for whatever twisted reasons they may have. It's your call.

[TheBeak]

I doubt VERY much that it is guarnateed......The only people I have heard say that are the Cityjet guys who were out in S.A. ......so that narrows you down:E......Though you may think otherwise I doubt anyone really cares who you are. I am not being sarcastic nor sneer, I am merely telling you that I know of a fair few people who though they were sponsored and guaranteed a job and......BLAMO - no job. I bet there will be clauses with your guarantee and I bet they didn't expect the econonmy and market to go like it has done. I am sorry if it feels like I have tried to shoot you down but optimists often feel that way when told the truth. Come on agent.oen don't get wound up, after all you have a guaranteed job on the way.

[corsair]

There are not guaranteed jobs even with full sponsorship. Aer Lingus came close to it, though. Their last batch of sponsored cadets found there were no jobs for them after finishing their training in Spain. But to fair to Aer Lingus when they were recruiting again. They gave the cadets first refusal. Which is decent of them.

What was interesting and gives an insight to the type of people who go for sponsorships. Several had quit flying despite having the best training someone else's money could buy. Makes you wonder about their motivation for becoming a pilot in the first place.

Aer Lingus are like BA in their fussiness about pilot selection and are known for their preference in selecting integrated over modular pilots to the extent that they will recruit non nationals over Irish. Which for a small country's 'flag carrier' is unusual. But to be fair they have taken modular pilots.

They even put their direct entry, experienced pilots through the same aptitude tests as cadets.

[skyhighbird]

Afraz must be loving this thread.

At least someone is.

[Re-Heat]

TheBeak - why the vehemence?

Lufthansa still fully sponsor. Without the technicalities of a "guaranteed" job, there is one there at the end of the training if you pass the course and they are not in financial trouble. Surely we are all adult enough to understand that is the approximate meaning of a guaranteed job in this industry.

[TheBeak]

I am not the one who was being vehement......Well perhaps now I am! I would say this forum is full of desperate people who really want this as a career. Everyone is racking their brains trying to work out how is best to train and how to afford to train and THEN beyond that how on Earth to get a job. And then you get someone who comes on arrogantly saying that they know of at least 3 airlines who are DEFINATELY sponsoring and that they have a GUARANTEED job so what's all the fuss about. And he/she isn't even qualified yet but he/she thinks that they are an expert saying 'really believe me-I know what I am talking about' Uhhhhh no you don't fella, you sound like another arrogant 'sponsored' student who has been spun a yarn by their FTO and has believed it. I am just trying to give them an eye opener. It is the people who can't see the wood for the trees that often cause the accidents. And with regards to Lufthansa, exactly, there is a big IF there and at this current time that big IF is in full swing.

[skyhighbird]

Guys,

Questions have been asked previously about Int Vs Mod etc (I've read all the stickies) and I think the things Re-heat has said has explained fully why Integrated is preffered in BA.

Fair enough, I accept all of those things and agree with the notion - if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

However you must be able to see why I and a few others are frustrated at this. Like I said, I am probably the few that actually would love a non-jet job. So I never started my training with an ambition to sit in a jet. But if I decide to go modular, it will always be in the back of my head that senior members of aviation (Re-heat - former concorde pilot?) will sub-concioulsy look down at Mod students due to failures that have happened before.

According to Re-heat and others, the school I choose will most probably not have the right equipment, tools, teachers or discipline required, and that my planning won't be as good as integrated cadets.

Now you say that this is policy and not your opinion. Really? is this what is written in stone outside the BA low-hours recruitment office? Do you have this written on serviettes in the canteen? I haven't seen this written on the website.

So this is obviously your take on things, something you believe in. Like I said, with a thousand-odd posts and a name like re-heat, I guess you are pretty high up which means if you believe this, then your peers will too.

Like I said, give me a prop over a jet any day of the week. I am lucky, but other mods out there would have sacrificed life and soul, just for the one hour flying they get at weekends. Can you imagine how they must feel reading what you wrote?

Sure at a Flybe interview they would say "Ooh yes, a Dash 8 I really want to fly that. I've always liked those type of planes". But the fact is the poster on their bedroom wall wasn't a dash-8, it was probably a 747 or a BA concorde. And now after all that hard work they have put in compared to an integrated cadet's parents who have ransomed their nice semi-their national airline due to past experience will consider their training to be of a lower quality - and hence the pilot will be of a lower quality.

[TheBeak]

The difference with going integrated is:

-SOPs from the start
-the monitoring of training and continuous progress tests prevents bad habits and bad habits are hard (and expensive) to break.
-structure and progression from the start.
-The use of things like AIPs and Tech Logs which I am sure alot of Modular people who go and hire a 152 in Florida do not use properly or even touch.
- All the bits in between the licences and ratings.
-Continuity of instructors.
-A final report which is almost like an indemnity to the airline should anything go wrong in their training with the airline.

However if you do a PPL, ATPLs, and then join a proper modular course like OAA, FTE, BCFT, PAT etc. then there isn't really any difference apart from the cost.

[clanger32]

skyhighbird.
I think you're still missing the point a little....no, it ISN'T fair that modular is the only option a lot of people have for training. It ISN'T fair that some airlines have a preference for integrated cadets. It ISN'T fair that some won't even talk to modular students with low hours.

BUT. It is the way it is and no amount of stamping of feet and lobbing of dummy is going to change that. You might not like it, but thems the rules. If you want to fly for BA straight out of flight school, then scratch modular off your list - for the time being at least.

If your ambition is to reach BA one day, then do what the hell you want - once you've got 1500 hours even the glorious flag carrier won't give a monkeys of your modular past - but you see, once you've got past 1500 hours, you're likely to have had bad habits kicked out of you by another airline and those that just shouldn't be there are unlikely TO be there.

If your information is correct, you're 23 years old and in a situation that many, many people 20 years your senior would love to be in. It's not FAIR that a 20 year old can be earning more than an airline captain with 20+ years experience - but it's the way of the world. No amount of airline captains whinging and bitching at the likes of Bob Diamond is going to change that either...

[skyhighbird]

Clanger,

whenever I replied to posts, I never wanted the tone to be percieved that I was throwing toys out of a pram or stamping my feet crying that "it isn't fair". In fact whether it being fair or not didn't really come into my mind. I certainly have not missed any point.

The world is not fair and I don't expect the airline world to be any different.

But actually reading the reasons WHY they only take integrated cadets was very insulting, to me (who has no intention of a jet job but who could easily (please don't think I'm boasting) go integrated) and to other cadets out there.

I assumed (I could be totally wrong) that Re-heat with a thousand odd posts was perhaps a very high up person in BA. With a name like re-heat perhaps an ex-concorde pilot.

Either way, the things he mentioned as to why low hour mods are not taken was insulting to hear (I'd go as far as to say it was offensive), from a mod cadet POV and/or from a mod flight school.

[clanger32]

But WHY do you find it offensive? There is nothing to take offence AT!

Put it this way, there are a hell of a lot of excellent, excellent providers of modular training, but there's also a hell of a lot of "flash 'arry's flying school, PPL for a tenner - innit" out there. So whilst some modular grads will have come from the excellent schools that provide top notch training and resources, there are also others from "flash 'arrys" who will require a LOT of extra time to adapt. And you don't have to employ too many of these to start thinking "sod this, let's just go and employ those we know about..."

Think of it in terms of your current employer - whoever that may be. Say they employed a dozen graduates from City university this year, but they turned out to be next to useless, lost millions consistently and didn't fit in, where do you think they'd look to recruit next year? I bet you anything, they won't be too quick to go back to City, although it's a very good uni.....they'll be off to Oxford and Cambridge, thanks very much. And this is a good example actually - there are many equally good universitys around the country, but Oxford or Cambridge will always get the pick of jobs.

The airlines helped shape the integrated courses. Each cadet will fly broadly the same way - the way the airlines want new pilots to handle the aircraft - because it was them that designed it. Therefore an integrated cadet is something of a known value....a mod cadet can be anywhere from flash arrys to the BFCs of this world and with standards to match.

Like it or not, a lot of mod students do base their decisions on training on cost alone. And therefore the training ISN'T consistent...because it's given by 3/4/5 different providers potentially, all of whom do things differently. With BA, it's fairly well known that they did once upon a time take some mods on, didn't get on with them and one bad apple etc etc...

Also, be a wee bit careful assuming anything from someones monniker....I got caught by that one once and got nicely flamed for it. For example, I am neither a pink, mood dwelling rodent like creature from the 70s OR 32.....:}

[skyhighbird]

Some good points Clanger, some I could discuss back to you but I think there is no point really anymore - its all kind of fruitless, plus I wouldn't have a job for much longer if I keep posting here!

One thing I will ask (probably at a later date i na separate post but please feel free to answer now)is what are these "bad habits" I keep hearing about.

It's a common response to an Int Vs Mod thread - that integrated cadets have less bad habits as it is kicked out of them pretty soon. It be good to know I guess before I start doing the serious parts of training. Be good to know what to look out for before they get into the system in the first place.

Anyway like I said, that's for another time.

[corsair]

At last a bit of sense talked. But SEVENMILESUP, given that you were modular. Explain to us how all the bad habits and poor training you had was 'kicked out of you'. Clearly as we have been told here by many here that you were 'starry eyed'. You also didn't 'get the same robust course material, experienced instructors, equipment, support and discipline that a planned, integrated course offers'.

So who did you bribe to get into BA? Don't you feel any guilt that somehow or other a half trained dreamer like you is flying for British Airways?

I suggest you do the decent thing and hand in your wings at once.:rolleyes:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its lovely that certain people who took certain training routes offer pro and con opinions.

But. I have been both a Modular and an Integrated flying instructor and have worked at small, medium and the very large schools. I tell you now, the quality of instructing is best outside of the sausage factories and away from the tiddlers. Like so many things in life the sweet spot is found around halfway up the price/prestige/size curve.

What suits you, your timing, budget and situation is for you to know. What suits the hiring market varies violently.

But my opinion, if you want aircraft availabilty, instructor continuity, advantageous airfields and good confident personal training then your money ain't best spent at the largest schools. Wannabes often mistake volume for quality. So they buy the Ford and ignore the Lotus. One gives you so much more bang for your buck and added fun..

Nobody every listens though.


WWW

[air_wolf]

People don't listen WWW cos wannabes, rightly or wrongly, aren't primarily concerned about aircraft availabilty, personal training etc when choosing a training provider. They care about landing a job in the right hand seat of a jet - and integrated schools offer the best opportunity of achieving this by far.

[skyhighbird]

"They care about landing a job in the right hand seat of a jet - and integrated schools offer the best opportunity of achieving this by far."

Guys,

Let Battle Commence!!!!!

[air_wolf]

I'm not saying that an integrated course is better than a modular course - in some respects I think modular makes you a more rounded and better pilot.

But like it or not, airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.

"Let Battle Commence!!!!"........embarrassing.:rolleyes:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes - but you've clearly never worked for an employer that won't touch Integrated graduates with a barge pole. I have.

The wider point is that during a lengthy period of NO HIRING it doesn't matter which route you took. All that matters is how long you can afford to stay in the game. Which depends on your debt levels. Which hands the advantage to Modular followers who spent less to start with or spread training spend over a longer time, perhaps whilst still earning.

Strategic, not tactical arguments.


WWW

[mad_jock]

But like it or not, airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right

What a load of cock. There are just as many actively avoid integrated students as there are that solely hire them which stands at 1 just now.

You have more chance of getting knocked back for a job because you have ginger hair than you do for where you have trained.

All the "the industry works this way" rules are out the window just now.

On another thread someone from BA mentioned that BA had a course of mod grads that all failed for reasons they wern't going into. The chances that 10-15 pilots would all fail a type rating course are small to remote. There is a huge political behind the scenes method to there madness with this policy. Which could come down to personal view or elitism for corporate image.

I would like to see some some personal experience with all this airlines take more integrated.

Personally I have flown with some 20-30 low houred FO's in the last 3 years 2 of which were Integrated trained. When I trained as an FO out of the 15 that were hired the same time as me 1 was integrated. And looking at the OAT site over the next 3 years the company hired 4 from them. And at the time they were running type rating courses with 10 on every 2 months.

[skyhighbird]

airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.

air_wolf,

With what authority can you come to this ground breaking declaration?

(BA asides as we know they prefer low hr ints)

[air_wolf]

From pilotjobsnetwork.com:

AerLingus:
Integrated with A320 MCC do well. Oxford or Jerez. Modulars not doing well in recruitment unless with A320 MCC.

Thomas Cook:
2008/09 cadets from CTC (A320), Alteon scheme (A320) and Oxford (B757); family and relatives scheme(a320). Summer contracts initially offered but most have been made permanent this year.

Thomson:
Taken with minimum hours, sometimes Type Rating with hours on type specified. 2 good A-Levels required. CTC cadet scheme often route for low-hour new joiners.

Flybe:
For low hour first officers stated preference is for "one-stop" modular or integrated students. Mixed ages and experience levels at recent interviews. All F/O recruitment is onto the Q400.

easyjet:
Through the CTC wings program, you have to be less than 34. Recently also Ab Initio's from CAE-NLS are recruited via CAE and from Oxford recruited via GECAT. Accept entry up to 40.


Don't shoot the messenger......!

[clanger32]

I think there's a misunderstanding - or more precisely an inability to read what I've actually written - amongst some, where those persons believe that I THINK that integrated is better than mod, that I THINK modular are poorly trained etc. I don't. At all. I think integrated training is A way forward. And as with all such things, each way has it's own benefits and drawbacks.

For reference my point about "having the bad habits kicked out" wasn't intended to imply that ALL modular students have (or had) bad habits, it was simply to imply that by the time that magic 1500 hours is reached, pretty much anyone will be flying the way their airline wants them to, so the whole mod/int thing from that point on - and forever more for that person - is academic. Either that, or they will have been binned for not being up to scratch (regardless of training route)

Corsair, not the first time you and I have locked horns, but you must have had to REALLY try to misinterpret a pretty simple post that badly. But given you clearly think I'm talking crap, then might I suggest you have a go at INTELLIGENTLY illustrating the reasoning for BAs preference on low hours? I rather suspect that you can't do it any differently. I rather suspect that your illustration will involve criticising BA for having said policy, not illustrating any reasons (whether those are good/bad/indifferent, right or wrong) why it is there in the first place.

My point, was simply that one bad experience in any walk of life does tend to put one of the mind that "all similar experiences would have the same outcome". Think in terms of a bad meal at a restaurant you've only been to once....you probably wouldn't bother going back. But a bad meal at your favourite restaurant you laugh off as a "one off".

FWIW, I think WWW is pretty much spot on. Tactical training is required right now, and that does mean modular and as cheap as you can.....although just to muddy the waters a little, right now the only game in town is Ryanair and they seem to be interviewing in the ratio of 70/30 integrated/modular [RIGHT NOW] - based on relayed experience of about 12-15 recent assessment days. But it would be disingenuous to suggest to anyone contemplating their training right now that they should start an integrated course, purely on the chance that this statistic would remain as it is for the fifteen months until they emerge.

[G SXTY]

airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Its not right, but its the way it is.

A very misleading an inaccurate generalisation, whatever you've read on pilotjobsnetwork.com.

The UK's four biggest employers of pilots are BA, Ryanair, Easyjet and Flybe. Regarding low-hours pilots, BA will only take those from an integrated background, we know that. Easy have a well-trodden route via CTC, which presumably they are happy with.

Ryanair on he other hand couldn't care less where or how you got the licence, providing you can pay for a type rating. Flybe are more than happy to take modular candidates.

That's the big four taken care of, and for every operator that takes a small number of low-houred pilots by picking up the phone to Oxford or FTE, there's another that is perfectly happy with modular CVs (e.g. Jet2, Air Southwest, Eastern, Aurigny, etc etc).

[air_wolf]

Ok then, "some" airlines have a preference for integrated students over modular. Happy?!

Back to the original question tho, think all this off-topic knicker twisting over integrated vs modular suggests that the chances of BA starting a sponsorship programme in the near future are 0. Shame, cos I think it would bring some people into flying who otherwise might not have considered doing so.

[Re-Heat]

I agree, there seems to be a pretty poor standard or interpretation on this thread!

[152Queenoftheskies]

hahahaha! skyhighbird that quote of corsairs di make laugh a big one! I suppose that ba have told hem they dont want him. hahahaha laugh a big one i did. I think he is very angry TOO! Poor for him. My mather always told me, to open to everytime a bigness of SPIRIT, and oh it is my life prayer now! I hope he can get a job sometime. it is HARD to live with no money. I know.....

[SW1]

The only experience I have of BA is that a good friend of mine started as a FO on the A320 with them back in July last year. 21 years old, Integrated from FTE. Was the only one to get an interview along with another candidate- who was 34 and had been in a previous career somewhere.

Both had the required first time passes in exams, CPL/IR and were near enough identical, apart from age.

My friend got the job, JOC paid for and TR paid for. I think this should answer the question of what kind of person BA are looking for, young and willing to be moulded into what BA want you to be, whatever that is?

[Aerospace101]

The only reason BA takes integrated is because they (int grads) all have a verified training record from day1, with a known provider (from TEP days).

[corsair]

Actually 152queenoftheskies, Laugh away but I never applied to BA nor indeed do I have any interest in applying. I do have a job, but as it's a flying job, the pay is rubbish.

What has drawn my ire is not really the fact that BA or any airline have hiring preferences but the apparent attitude of some posters that the reason for it is something to do with the fact that pilots who come down the modular route are somehow substandard, poorly trained and 'starry eyed' gamblers.

The reality is that BA's recruitment policy is as much for historical reasons as anything else. That's simply their traditional method of hiring low timers. Either their own cadets or people using a similar route. Aer Lingus is similar. As sevenmilesup pointed out there are admin reasons too.

As it happens, if I was starting again. My preference would be to do an integrated course. I mean who wouldn't? It's the most convenient way of training. Full time and nothing else to do but fly and study. Failing that or more likely failing to obtain the ridiculous money to pay for it my second preference would be a full time modular course at a school with a good reputation. I fail to see how that could be considered lesser training than integrated. Yet apparently some people consider pilots coming down that route as second raters. Apparently, according to them so does BA.

That is ridiculous no matter which way you look at it.

[skyhighbird]

Corsair,

Your 2nd paragraph summarises exactly why I am annoyed. I have no intention for BA. I can afford an integrated but choose not to do so.

Unless anyone can correct me, the BA careers website does NOT write some of the stuff that has been written here by the likes of Re-heat et al.

If there are any BA pilots who managed to get in as low hour cadets, can you verify that your congratulations letter did not say "as you are integrated, hence better trained, well planned, better discipline...you have been offered employment.."

the point is the likes of re-heat et al really do believe the stuff they wrote. And that is why I have been annoyed at the posts.

[clanger32]

Corsair,
[Really!] Hear hear. An excellent post, I agree with wholeheartedly on all points. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. The only things I would add would be that you mention yourself ....modular course at a school with a good reputation - I think unfortunately there are also a lot of mod schools with bad reps out there - and these can potentially tar all "modular" students with the same brush (my bad meal in restaurant analogy)

Also, I don't think anyone has MEANT to imply that modular training is second rate - I think the intent was to show that there is PERHAPS a persistent (but inaccurate) feeling that this WAS the case [and hence a reason to not change]. However, this intent was missed in the hurry to jump on a statement that at first glance boils the blood...

[wobble2plank]

I fail to see, from the multitude of venomous posts on this thread from a variety of people, where the problem is.

The only reason BA stipulate 'integrated' is because they can. I have flown with many pilots both modular and integrated and, to be honest, I don't feel the need to ask 'so, what form of training did you undertake?' at the brief and then expansively suck teeth if it was modular. There is NO difference once you have the green, foul smelling, plastic ATPL folder. Everyone is qualified to the same level, irrespective of how they got there the only difference being that the LHS has completed a command course with the company and the RHS has not and, possibly, needs to build experience.

BA use the integrated as a way to cut their apparent costs. That's up to the recruiters. If they want to stipulate 'only to have flown Cessna Citations with a purple stripe down the side and a leather interior' then good luck to them. They can. The 'stipulation' disappears as soon as you become DEP and then you can join the company on the DEP payscale.

Always remember, never recruit unlucky people by throwing the top half of the CV's in the bin!

Anyway, the whole point is moot as the entire airline industry is in a downward spiral and the chances of 'sponsorship' or 'cadets' being resurrected in the near future is about as slim as an apology from Gordon Brown for the state of the economy!

Good luck, chill out and welcome to the real world.

[skyhighbird]

I fail to see, from the multitude of venomous posts on this thread from a variety of people, where the problem is
Wobble2plank,

the answer to your question is answered perfectly in Corsair's second paragraph.

"What has drawn my ire is NOT really the fact that BA or any airline have hiring preferences but the apparent attitude of some posters that the reason for it is something to do with the fact that pilots who come down the modular route are somehow substandard, poorly trained and 'starry eyed' gamblers"

I never quite undertood the last bit from re-heat or whoever said it-even though I did ask the person to explain the contradiction. Surely the least starry-eyed and the least gambling IS the person who went part time, hence having less debt and a secure job until they finished training. AND surely the starry-eyed wannabe IS the integrated cadet who put their parent's semi on the line?

[Captain-Random]

i think modular is for people who have wanted to fly since being young and spend there weekends washing, refueling planes to earn some money to get there ppl quite young. Or people who want to do it in stages for any reason.

On the other hand Intergrated is either for people who decide on a new career and have saved up a lot of cash to get there licence quickly or people who wake up one day and say "i wanna be a pilot" and have the money or take out a big loan on daddys property.

Just my thoughts so feel free to disagree

[wobble2plank]

Skyhighbird

I never quite undertood the last bit from re-heat or whoever said it-even though I did ask the person to explain the contradiction. Surely the least starry-eyed and the least gambling IS the person who went part time, hence having less debt and a secure job until they finished training. AND surely the starry-eyed wannabe IS the integrated cadet who put their parent's semi on the line?

We live in a democracy (well almost if you're in the UK) and people are posting on a public forum. Some people may para phrase certain policies of companies in many different ways. There is often a mis-conception of the reader as to the posters intent or phraseology. That's normal but then what else is normal is to concoct a well thought out missive as to the counter.

If it helps, I have never found any difference when flying with pilots who are integrated or modular. If I have to put my glove down on one side of the fence I would say that the modular pilots are often (not always) more down to earth and pragmatic as a result of their training. However, integrated, are more often a 'blank canvas', young, keen and willing to learn. In all honesty though any 'low hour' pilot can be an exceptional pain when they hit the magic 1000 hour 'know it all' barrier! Those who have seen it know what I mean.

Wait out. Enjoy the modular course as best you can. When the upturn swings in there is likely to be enough jobs for most.

[cc2180]

i think modular is for people who have wanted to fly since being young and spend there weekends washing, refueling planes to earn some money to get there ppl quite young. Or people who want to do it in stages for any reason.

On the other hand Intergrated is either for people who decide on a new career and have saved up a lot of cash to get there licence quickly or people who wake up one day and say "i wanna be a pilot" and have the money or take out a big loan on daddys property.

Just my thoughts so feel free to disagree



Absolute bull. This is the other end, extreme stereotype put out there. Just as bad, just as dumb.

Why bother? These posts only reveal your own hang-ups.

[Rapha_BA]

Anyone has any sugar?might make myself some lemonade...there's a lot of lemons in here right?well at least it feels like,..alot of bitter people here,must be the lemons tho .....

[Captain-Random]

lets add more bull then.... BA dont take cadet mods because they are an unknown risk

[cc2180]

That is the exact traditional reason, as echoed time and time again in this thread. Noone is saying it is justified in todays system.

But I guess you'd prefer to speculate its for more sinister reasons of social hierachy, and that Mod students are the only real deserving pilots out there.

Just read back your statement and realise how bitter you sound.

[Captain-Random]

Not really bitter to be honest. I'm not fussed i could go either way but i would never say one pilot is better than another because they went mod or they went int and i would never say they are a risk.

By the was it was an intergrated pilot that told me the possible reasons in my previous post.

Anyway what was the original post anyway because this has turned into a int v mod

[skyhighbird]

Captain,

I must hold my hands up to the thread going off at a tangent.

But I am glad I did. It has been a real eye opener to the truth. I don't mean truth as in what has been said about mods compared to integrated is correct, I mean the truth that there are factions out there that really believe in what they said about mods - yet try to hide under the blanket that this is what BA think.

This is why I said this thread should be a sticky. Rather than the endless Int vs Mod ad nauseum thread with hundred odd posts, this particular thread tells everything a wannabee needs to know, not just the simple facts (integrated costs more) but how a mod student may be percieved by some people.

[Captain-Random]

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/218620-never-ending-modular-vs-integrated-debate-merged-ad-nauseam.html

I think you'll find over 600 reasons for each and it really is never ending

[Jamin20]

Just been reading through this post with a smile on my face so thanks guys for the entertainment. With the flight school I went to, getting put forward to BA was the carrot on the end of the stick. When starting, most of the cadets pushed themselves harder to try and get recommended at the end of the course. We all accepted that if we did not make the grade or not "BA material" we would not get put forward as the flight school did not want to risk loosing their link to BA by sending anyone and everyone forward.
The integrated/modular debate regarding BA recruitment is fairly redundant; in my flight school at least you had to be put forward to have a chance at BA. The reason modular guys were not put forward was not just that they couldn't back up their complete training, but as part of the sales pitch for applicants to part with £50k+ for an integrated course was the promise of getting put forward to airlines if a certain standard was met.
Being put forward to BA has had a negative affect on many who went for the interview. It is pretty much an all your eggs in one basket choice, as BA did not want you being put forward to anyone else whilst waiting for an interview. In the time it took to get through and get turned down, many other doors had been closed due to not having 50 hours in the last 6 months.

[LessThanSte]

I was having a tidy yesterday and came across a letter from Cabair about a reduction in costs due to a new scheme in the US, or something. It had this written;

BA Announce the restart of their Self sponsored Pilot Scheme

British Airways have informed us that they are hoping to restart their Self sponsored Pilot Scheme in the spring.....

Perhaps this is what my aunty had read about, as i alluded to at the start of this thread. Discuss!

P.S. I couldnt give two hoots about modular vs integrated debates, and give that i started this thread for a discussion of BA and Sponsorship, am perplexed how we've managed to get to the 6th page taking about mod vs int!

[potkettleblack]

The two statements you pasted are at odds to each other. The headline states that BA are restarting a sponsored scheme, yet in the next sentence you quote "hoping to restart".

Don't be seduced by any marketing spin until:-

- there are cast iron agreements in place between BA and Cabair
- BA have publicly announced that it is restarting a sponsored scheme
- you have gone through the details of the scheme (if there is one) with a fine tooth comb and know what you are getting yourself in for

After all of that you then need to ask yourself if you are feeling lucky. A select few get put forward to BA and many fall by the wayside and aren't up to standard.

[clanger32]

May also be worth noting, in answer to the OPs latest post, that I was recently informed [by someone, the opinion of whom I would consider to be pretty much gospel] that Oxford are not anticipating anything at all with BA this year, or at the very, very least until post Q3.

Contentious it may be, but historically I don't believe [although could well be wrong] Cabair's rep with BA is as strong as those of FTEs or OAAs, so would think it unlikely that Cabair would have the nod ahead of these two (or indeed CTC).

Sad truth is I highly doubt anyone low hours will even be joining the hold pool at BA, let alone starting JOC/TR for another 9 months absolute minimum.

[BusinessMan]

LTS - quoted letter from just over a year ago perhaps, rather than recently?

[LessThanSte]

This letter was recieved earlier this year, early feb if i remember right.

Yes, i realise its marketing spin, my point is more that this could tally with what i was first alluding to in the original post.

Anyway, im not overly looking at BA sponsorship/self-sponsorship, theres other ways of getting into an aircraft out there!

But i guess we will have to wait and see!

[Propellerhead]

What route consolidation? London - Madrid and Barcelona are the only shared routes and these are already code shared with an equal number of BA and Iberia flights!

[EK4457]

If only it were that easy.

Traffic can be consolidated on one route, say madrid to south america, with a couple of 'feeder' flights from london to madrid for the uk traffic. Then you chop the London to south america routes. Airlines cut costs, pax get better fares and crew loose jobs.

Just one hypothetical example but there are a lot of savings to be made during a merger which are not obvious at first glance. Not good for bus drivers.

Or, put it this way, there sure as hell will be no additional flights as a result.

All pretty acadimic with respect to the OP- BA will not be sponsoring any time soon is the sensible answer.

[Re-Heat]

Pretty much all the savings are likely to be in procurement / distribution / IT. Consolidation of a couple of Latin American routes from London to being via Madrid is of little consequence to the workforce, and will possibly benefit consolidation of North American routes.

[quant]

BA will definetly be re-introducing its sponsorship:

British Airways said traffic dropped 7.3 per cent last month due to continuing challenging market conditions and added that 300 staff would leave the airline by the end of May as part of a voluntary redundancy scheme announced earlier this year.

Elsewhere Ryanair, the low cost Irish airline, said it carried 4.7 million passengers last month, 5 per cent more than last year, but that its planes were emptier, with its load factor falling to 77 per cent compared to 79 per cent in 2008.


BA traffic falls 7% in March as 300 staff leave (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6030256.ece) http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/nerd.gif

[Propellerhead]

None of the 300 are pilots and March statistics are distorted by the fact that Easter fell in March last year and April this year. No one said BA were going to launch a sponsorship scheme during the downturn. However afterwards there MAY be expansion coupled with pilots retiring as they aproach 60, therefore a lot of recruitement may be needed and sponsorship could be considered as an option. My crystal ball is rather hazy right now so it is very difficult to speculate.