NVFR

[TOPendFLYER]

G’day,
I have been thinking of doing my NVFR and was wondering what the expected cost would be? Also what would the difference in price be for twin? Could I do initial as part of the NVFR? How many hours is it?:confused:

[WannaBeBiggles]

Hi

all the minimum hours and other info for NVFR can be found in CAAP 15.3-2 (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/CAAPs/ops/5_13_2.pdf). This will also give you a rough idea of costs involved as you simply multiply those by your schools hourly rate ;)

As for twin NVFR, I wouldn't do it unless you already have your initial twin. Most good schools will give you a night twin nvfr rating along with you MECIR if you have a NVFR as I think the only extra requirement is to do an engine failure in cruise (though I would confirm this in the CAAPs first.)

Many would argue (including myself) that NVFR is a great introduction to instrument flying and is just a whole lot of fun. Why not just enjoy the rating, save some money and worry about the twin when it's actually going to be of use, as I'm guessing you've not finished a CPL yet and a twin job is not something you'll be using straight away anyway.

A night V is also a great way to get some more command time towards your CPL as I found even the more critical friends who don't find the idea of getting up in to a light aircraft too appealing can be swayed to chipping in for a few orbits around the city :ok:

Just my two cents. :)

[TOPendFLYER]

Thanks for the info Biggles, answered most of my queries.
For the record I do have CPL :ok:

[bushy]

NVFR in the outback on a dark night will really test your IF skills. It can get really dark away from the towns, and often is not visual flying at all. It's not like flying from one well lit town to another within the J curve.
Make sure your IF skills are good.

[TOPendFLYER]

Bushy
Any flying jobs in Alice? I'll be there in a matter of weeks :\

[bushy]

I think the aero club are looking for an instructor.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

You don't have to have a CPL and if you already have a multi-engine endorsement you can train single and test multi.

[TOPendFLYER]

I dont have CPL?

[Capt Fathom]

TOPendFLYER:
For the record I do have CPL
I dont have CPL
You seem a little confused!

[Tmbstory]

Beware of "black hole" airports especially on the take-off.. There is very little VFR about it after the runway lights are behind you.

Tmb

[Kickatinalong]

I'm with you Captain.:ugh::ugh::ugh: I think?
Kickatinalong.

[The Green Goblin]

You can pull a Kiwi NVFR out of a pack of weetbix!

I'm surprised it is so relaxed over there with a couple of circuits and a stint up and down the coast and you're all sweet. With their terrain/icing/wx etc I would have thought it would be rather strict!

There are also two NVFR ratings in AU, don't get the ag one or you will not be able to operate NVFR on multi engine charter ops.

[185skywagon]

There are also two NVFR ratings in AU, don't get the ag one or you will not be able to operate NVFR on multi engine charter ops.


See below for NVFR Ag requirements. You would be unlikely to choose the wrong one by mistake.

CAO 40.2.2

1 AERONAUTICAL EXPERIENCE
1.1 For the purposes of subparagraph 6A.1 (c), the aeronautical experience must include at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot in command, or as pilot acting in command under supervision, of an aeroplane that is engaged in spraying operations conducted in daylight.
1.2 For the purposes of subparagraph 6A.2 (c), the aeronautical experience must include at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot in command, or as pilot acting in command under supervision, of an aeroplane, or a helicopter, that is engaged in spraying operations conducted in daylight.

[The Green Goblin]

1.1 For the purposes of subparagraphs 6.1 (b), 6.2 (b), 6.3 (b) and 6.5 (b), the aeronautical experience must include:
(a) instrument flight training as required to reach the standard specified in subsection 2 of this Appendix; and
(b) at least 10 hours of flight time as a pilot that was flown at night and that includes:
(i) at least 5 hours of flight time in an aircraft of the category appropriate to the grade of rating to which the paragraph relates; and
(ii) at least 2 hours of flight time in an aircraft that is flying in a traffic pattern; and
(iii) at least 1 hour of flight time in an aircraft:
(A) that is flying in a traffic pattern; and
(B) that is of the category appropriate to the grade of rating to which the paragraph relates; and
(c) 5 hours dual navigation night flight time including:
(i) 2 hours visual instruction by an approved pilot; and
(ii) in the case of subparagraph 6.1 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements:
(A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours;
(B) the flight must cover at least 100 miles; and
(iii) in the case of subparagraph 6.2 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements:
(A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours;
(B) the flight must cover at least 100 miles; and
(iv) in the case of subparagraph 6.3 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements:
(A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours;
(B) the flight must cover at least 100 miles; and
(v) in the case of subparagraph 6.5 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements:
(A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours;
(B) the flight must cover at least 40 miles.
1.2 For the purposes of subparagraph 1.1 (b), the same flight time may be counted towards as many of sub-subparagraphs 1.1 (b) (i), 1.1 (b) (ii) and 1.1 (b) (iii) as describe the flight time.

We have these requirements for a bare NVFR rating

A particular grade of command instrument rating authorises the holder of the
rating to fly an aircraft of the category concerned within Australia as pilot in
command, or co-pilot, using the navigation aids endorsed in the holder’s
personal log book in the following circumstances:
(a) Private and aerial work flights under night V.F.R. procedures provided
the pilot meets the aeronautical and recent experience requirements
applicable to a night V.F.R. endorsement.
(b) Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:
(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.

Yet we need the above two requirements to utilize the rating for any real purpose.

I suggest doing an extra "dual" nav in your training, or after achieving the rating conducting a solo nav to meet the above requirements.

[Mark1234]

Green Goblin, I'm confused - your quotes seem to be non-sequitur?

The first refers to night vfr, the second appears to be a requirement for an instrument rating? Or are you making the point that you need to meet the instrument rating night flight requirements to make the instrument rating useful?

[Tinstaafl]

I think the point is that *if* you have an IR - or are training for one - and no NVFR rating then doing the small additional bit of flying will then let you use NVFR procedures- without having to hold the NVFR rating. Otherwise NVFR procedures are a no-no.

I advocate getting the NVFR rating even if you'll get an IR. Using an IR, NVFR procedures are only allowed as long as the instrument rating is valid. Let the IR lapse and so does NVFR procedures until the IR is renewed.

[TonKat]

When conducting NVFR training - do instructors take you away from the East Coast area to experiance some real night conditions or is it more a case to do the three hour 100 mile track where the towns are?

I imagine there are a few tricks to learn that vary from day VFR.

[jportzer]

Does a night VFR rating remove you from the obligation to maintain a visual reference to the horizon? I thought Night VFR was only allowed when you had either good city light coverage, or enough moonlight or starlight, to still see the ground and horizon. That said, I can fully understand how being instrument proficient would be helpful.

[Mark1234]

@TonKat, in my (recent) experience, yes; it's part of the requirements to conduct landings at an aerodrome away from 'significant lighting'. Tricks wise - basically a significant element of instrument flying (flying by reference to the instruments, rather than flying IFR), and radio nav as a primary means of navigating - intercepts etc, rather than just tracking. I also had to demonstrate (in sim), recoveries from unusual attitudes on instruments, and an ability not to kill myself on a partial panel - but no UA recoveries on partial. Lastly I was given a severe lecture on the potential to kill myself, and warned not to treat it as a ticket to rush in where angels feared to tread just 'cos I'd got a little instrument appreciation :=

@jportzer, I'm aware of no such limitation - nor am I aware of a requirement to have a visual horizon for day VFR (it may be a sensible thing to have, but I don't know of a requirement). If you have a reference, educate me quick!

I will add that I think it's rather worthwhile - not because I'm going to do much night flying, but because it removes the time pressure around being a bit late in the day, and for me at least, it brought a more disciplined approach vs the standard daylight bimble.

[jportzer]

Sorry for not thinking straight, the requirement to navigate "by visual reference to ground or water" (not necessarily visible horizon) is only when under 2000 feet AGL. I should have noted I am a PPL student and am still learning the requirements of navigation. I probably mistook advice on when I *should* fly day and night VFR with what the actual requirements are.

[Mark1234]

Cool - was genuinely wondering if I'd missed something!

As goes visual nav, you have a requirement to have a positive fix of your position at not less than certain intervals, which in practice means you need to have regular sight of the ground even above 2000 - I believe the guidance is over no more than 4/8ths. If you're signed off to be able to navigate by specific aids (NDB/VOR/DME), you can fix that way, and need not see the ground. You generally do that with the night rating. Although it's perfectly reasonable to get that signed off for regular day VFR it's not normally part of it.

Obviously that doesn't mean you can't use them to supplement visual nav, but not soley.

[The Green Goblin]

Folks,

What I was pointing out to you is that if you are going to do a NVFR rating, try and get the points covered in your training so that when you have a MECIR you have the requirements to operate NVFR on charter operations.

The standard syllabus does not cover you for IR NVFR requirements.

Another option of course is to have multi engine added to your NVFR rating (something I never did)

I recommend the SE NVFR rating, it may save your bacon one day if you get to close to the soup. After completing a NVFR rating you are almost as proficient on the dials as a MECIR pilot without the IFR theoretical knowledge and approach training. (and of course the IF time counts towards your CPL if you do it prior along with your CIR)

Have fun!

[TonKat]

Tks mark1234 for the info.

And sound explanation from TGG that a NVFR is a stepping stone to CIR for CPL and ME to make it worth while.

Advice from those more experianced than I - is that a NVFR is the bush is more used to depart prior to first light or for completed missions after last light and getting home.

Sounds good to me;)