Adler Tag

[mach78]

This morning,August 10th 1940 the Luftwaffe's attack on RAF targets began, marking the start of the Battle of Britain proper.

Spare a small thought for your appreciation of "The Few" and what they were about to achieve over that small but intense period in 1940- against all odds- today please gents.

[banjoyboy10]

Hear hear

Puts a lump in my throat just thinkiing about the terror those poor blokes must have gone through.

Thanks for the reminder mach 78

[The Guvnor]

Never before, in the field of human conflict, has so much been owed by so many, to so few.

Winston S Churchill, October 1940

[HugMonster]

...to which some of them, said "He must have heard about our back-pay owing".

The sheer effort it must have taken to fly three, four or five sorties a day, initially on very few hours' experience in fighters, seeing the attrition rate among colleagues, in aircraft only semi-serviceable after the last sortie, against some very experienced and battle-hardened pilots astonishes me.

Churchill's other appropriate words on the subject were, of course, "...this was their finest hour".

[CrashDive]

Many of us in here today, with our hours, would have been considered 'aces' - thus all the more humbling to think just how inexperienced many of 'the few' were, flying very high-powered aircraft, in a life-and-death situation.

But, and whilst not discounting the contribution made by fighter command, it might also pay to remember/reflect that during the nights of the 1000 bomber raids more bomber flight crew lost their lives every single night than were killed during the whole of the Battle of Britain !

Many's the time I've passed overhead Dresden, on our schduled service to Prague, and whilst sitting there at FL's in the +300's, in short sleeve shirt, drinking tea, watching the glass stuff do its magic w.r.t navigation et al...... I've thought of those blokes in their Lancasters, freezing cold, no nav aids, scared, being shot at from the ground and in the air, and in an aircraft full of high explosives and petrol - it brings me out in goosebumps every time !

[mach78]

Quite right Crashdive wrt to the Lancasters and their crews.However the fate of the war had already been decided by then.
In 1940, Britain stood alone, with the only thing preventing Operation Sealion (the invasion)was this Thin Blue Line, The Narrow Margin.
America had not yet entered the war, and Russia had still to be invaded.
Defeat was on the cards, a real possibility.

The country was, quite simply, fighting for it's survival.

[InFinRetirement]

Hate to be pedantic but Adlertag (Eagle Day) is officially recognised as 13th August 1940. The assault by the Lufftwaffe was codenamed Adlerangriffe (Eagle attack). It lasted for three days and culminated in the massive attack on the 15th August, launched due to a misunderstanding by a junior officer who thought the weather was good enough, while Reichsmarschall Goering had ordered a hold - though this was not known to him. This attack was made against the whole East Coast of England and Scotland. The main thrust however was directed against Hawkinge, Hornchurch, Biggin Hill, Croydon and Kenley.

I was a small boy living just 4 miles from Croydon and re-call that day because of the masses of bombers and escorting fighters. The aerial fights that followed remain indeliblely imprinted in my mind.

That is why, now, 60 years on I personally give thanks to those who flew in a battle that will never be fought again. A battle led by leaders, both in the air and on the ground. This was indeed, Their Finest Hour

The Few get fewer, but the many can ensure that they will always be remembered.



[This message has been edited by InFinRetirement (edited 10 August 2000).]

[pigboat]

Gentlemen, may the skin of your ass never cover the head of a banjo.

[UnwellRaptor]

I am both proud and relieved that my country was not defeated.

Might this be a time to recognise that those who died in the air sixty years ago were all aviators?

There is nothing unpatriotic about admiring the sacrifice made by the soldiers of a former enemy.

Isn't it time to admire the courage of the dead, and to give thanks that we were too young (or not yet born) to be among them?

[The Guvnor]

Personally, I'm deeply disgusted that the National Lottery refused to pay for a memorial to the Few - on the grounds that it was not 'nationally representative' yet they shelled out hundreds of millions of pounds to the Millenium Dome and dubious 'marginal' organisations. :mad: :mad:

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[zzz]

sobering thought.

more Englishmen died during the first day of the Somme in 1916 than in the whole of the Battle of Britain.

[UnwellRaptor]

zzz:

Point taken, but the overall Bomber Command casualties in the offensive on Germany were more or less the same as those incurred on the first day of the Somme.

The bomber crews went 'over the top' night after night, which is not to belittle the soldiers on the Somme, but to point up the enormous, day after day, courage of those aircrews.

Whenever we pass a war memorial or a Tomb of the Unknown Warrior it is decent to pause a while, to think, and to be thankful.

[mach78]

Infin, I knew that Adlerangriff was to come into force on receipt of the codeword Adler Tag, which was, I understand on the 10th, but with the attacks themselves beginning on the 13th.

Whereas Battle Of Britain day is always held on Sept 15th, interestingly as you pointed out , there was a massive attack on August 15th.This in fact represented the day of maximum effort by the Luftwaffe when no less than 1786 sorties were flown in 24hrs.

It must have been fascinating, but frightening to a small boy to have been witness to such a sight.

[fifthcolumns]

I'm not British so there is no emotional
baggage in saying this.

The 'few' quite simply preserved freedom and
democracy in Britain, yes, but ultimately in
Europe as a whole, ironically even the enemy
of the time owes it current status to it's
defeat back then. It would not enjoy the same
freedom and prosperity now, if it had won in 1940
If Britain had lost in 1940. Europe
would have been fought over by two gigantic
and terrible ideologies. Communism and Nazism.
The winner would control ALL of Europe, Middle
East and most surrounding countries.
Quite simply without Britain to act as a base for
America when it came into the war, if it came into
the war. Either the Soviet Union would have swept
up to and across the Channel or the Nazis would
have defeated them without the distraction of a war
on three fronts. Without the United States involvement
that would be our fate to this day. Critics of American
foreign policy please note, this fact still applies.
I'm not American either by the way.

So in my opinion it is impossible to
overstate the importance of the Battle of Britain
for all of us in Europe.

We owe them our freedom and for many of us
or lives. No amount of revisionism can change
that. It was the single most important moment
in modern European and world history.

We would do well to remember that every day.

[Yossarian]

When I fly out over the Channel and see what "the Few" must have seen every day, it makes me pause a second.

It is apt that we should all remember their sacrifice and the heroic nature of their endeavour.

[BoeingBoy]

Yossarian? You and me both, each time I descend into Gatwick I start off in the 20's imagining the view from a Flying Fortress, then into the ten's with the white cliffs in view I look into the sun and imagine the feelings that a rookie pilot in a Hurricane or Spitfire must have felt wondering if an ME109 was about to end my chosen career path.

It is so sad that the youth of our country no longer even know what a Spitfire is or what it meant to their freedom. Such is the effect of 'Political Correctness'.

[Charly]

All my respect and deepest condolance for the british fighter and bomber pilots, the civilians and soldiers.

When i fly to the UK, i feel sorry for what we Germans did to the world and to your country.

But I´d like to remind you (esp. "Crash Dive"), that the bombers over Dresden, Bremen, Hamburg and Köln (Cologne) didn´t kill Nazis, but civilians!! (a lot of them)!!

War is a dirty business

[ID90]

For more info on the actual history of events, check out the day by day account as recorded in Fighter Commands diary of events at www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940) Glad to see that the Daily Mail has supported the BoB Historical society attempt to raise funds for a plinth recording the names of all of "the few" at Victoria embankment on the Thames. I think they have raised approx £200,000 and require a further £50,000.

[AeroBoero]

War is anything but fair or clean. Lots of people payed the ultimate price so that each one of us that have born here in this or other continent could enjoy what we enjoy today and what the kids and younger people take for granted.
Almost thirty million people died. From all nationalities , races and religion.
And what people do today ? Don't even remember.
In seventy of eighty years from now , this will be just another chapter on a history book. Most of us will be gone to the final flight and almost no one will be able to pass on why we are free or why millions of people died because they were in the wrong place or the wrong religion or just out of luck.

German or English...don't matter. They all deserve respect for what they did and died for.

I cant imagine (and will never be able) of what those men went trough wen they were going to a Bomb Raid over some city with the uncertainty of the next second. Every second could be the last one...and that for me is pretty much a damn situation.

[PilotsPal]

Guv

Surely the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight exists as a official memorial to all aircrew who flew during WWII. I can think of nothing more fitting.

[HugMonster]

Yes, the effort that "The Few" put in was quite extraordinary. Yes, a lot of innocent civilians were killed on all sides, as were a lot of combatants, many of whom, during the Battle of Britain, were extremely gifted aviators, and our profession is the poorer for not now having the benefit of their teaching.

It is, perhaps, worth recording that Britain did not win the Battle of Britain - Hitler lost it. The best German move was the switch (inspired by Goering, a former fighter ace himself - he took over command of the "Flying Circus" after Baron von Richthofen's death - and an able tactician) from attacking convoys in the channel to hitting RAF bases in the southeast (and further afield). The German Admiralty had refused to contemplate an invasion until they had total air superiority.

Later on, the further switch to bombing London instead of airfields allowed the RAF fighter squadrons to regroup and recuperate. Had they not, however, had the fortitude to survive until that point, there would have been nothing to regroup.

It is also worth pointing out that neither the Hurricane nor the Mosquito had Government orders placed when they were developed. Hawker and de Havilland respectively had more imagination and intelligence than all Their Airships put together. Later on, when people said "Thank God for the Hurricane", what they really meant was "Thanks God for Tommy Sopwith". Moral of the story is never to trust politicians.

[con-pilot]

ID90;

That is truly a great wed site. I recommend that everbody looks at it. Believe it or not there was a newpaper article in the local paper in Oklahoma City, were I live, about the wed site ("The Daily Oklahoman").

To ALL the brave young men and women.

[ORAC]

AeroBoero, ZZZ. Less of the "English" please. This was battle fought not only by us but also by fleeing pilots from Europe and other Empire nations. A full list scrolls at the end of the film. But for a short list, remember also those who fought when it was not even their country at risk:

American
Australian
Belgian
Canadian
Czech
Free French
Irish
Jamaican
New Zealand
Palestinian
Polish
South Africa
Southern Rhodesian

[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 11 August 2000).]

[AeroBoero]

ORAC ;

Well , you forgot the Brazilians then.They also had nothing at stake and fought too.On the ground and flying P-47 in Italy.

I'm not forgetting all the other nationalities who fought in the WWII. But it would make a BIG list to cite all and I'm sure everyone here knows who fought and gave their lives in the field. Flying or Not.



[This message has been edited by AeroBoero (edited 11 August 2000).]

[The Guvnor]

PP - True, but for how much longer will the BoB Flight remain operational? A much more lasting memorial is the plinth - which the Lottery Fund people refused to contribute a penny for. :mad:

ORAC - you forgot to include Trinidad & Tobago on the list. There's a fascinating military museum here that documents each and every one of the Trinis that flew for the RAF in all sorts of roles - from flying Spits and Hurricanes in the BoB to Mosquitoes in the Pathfinders.

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[InFinRetirement]

Guv. The plan is 50 years. ALL the Mx has been geared to 5O hours a year for 50 years.

The Lancaster undertook the most extensive re-fit in Exeter a few short years ago.

Long may they continue.

[ORAC]

My apologies for the omissions. I deliberately said it was not inclusive. It was taken from the BoB list I have. I apologise for any omissions either in the BoB and later. Please feel free to add. If anyone wonders on names/ranks etc, I am sure I, or others, can provide the details or the sites to go to.

[The Guvnor]

That means that the aircraft will be more than 110 years old by the time they are finally grounded!!

You wouldn't know where I can get a similar life extension programme for some L1011s, by any chance?? :) :) :)

Seriously, that's fantastic news and it is great to hear that my children will be able to hear the unmistakeable growl of a Rolls Royce Merlin.

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[Ignition Override]

You all made some excellent points! It is impossible for me to imagine flying a Hurricane, single-pilot four-engine Lancaster, not to mention an Me-110 with a flaming-engine prop which won't feather, against responsive fighters with machine guns and high-velocity, exploding cannon shells...

Charly's and HugMonster's remarks were certainly thought-provoking. Just to continue: after enjoying Prag, my wife and I were in Meissen (very nice, alte, gemutliche Stadt) last Sept and visited the Dresden Museums, just a short train ride up the Elbe River. We had just seen a tv program the night before our trip, describing how terrible it was for the civilians in Dresden, which contained thousands of war refugees from the east, who were attacked three times in one night, in order to wipe out the "Florenz on the Elbe".

How sad it is to see cemeteries with thousands of Allied troops in Europe, and in contrast, to enjoy a bike path between small Central European villages (i.e. Baden), and suddenly finding memorials to numerous men in two different wars. Small villages in the peaceful countryside, where many fathers, husbands, brothers, especially sons never returned. It is bad enough without imagining the wives, mothers...

Somewhere, there must be memorials to the civilians killed, also. I have just one youngster, a son, who I am crazy about. Whether he ever becomes interested in aviation, time will tell. I pray that he will never be needed in a uniform, except as a volunteer.

May we all question political leaders whose careers benefit by creating armed conflict, often quite indifferent as to whether they sacrifice my family, or yours.

[This message has been edited by Ignition Override (edited 12 August 2000).]

[The Guvnor]

Very true, Ignition Override.

Indeed, it would be a very nice gesture of reconcilliation between our two great European nations if the propose BoB memorial included the names of all the casualties, on both sides.

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[Davaar]

Re The Guvnor's suggestion, my recollection is that the Scottish National War Memorial at Edinburgh Castle already does list units, if not individual names, participating from both sides in the references to major engagements, with the exception of Japan in World War II. I suppose that exception is for fairly obvious reasons, if anyone remembers that time.

On the other hand, in the matter of seeing bravery where we find it, the same museum contains a samurai sword taken from a Japanese artillery officer at, again going by memory, the battle of the Irrawady. His battery was attacked and overrun by British tanks. He counter-attacked a tank with his sword, killing the commander and one crewman before being shot with a revolver from a third man inside. I think any unit would be proud to number him on its roll.

[Rommel]

I dont know about the rest of you chaps,but I reckon I could probably do a ciruit in a Hurricane or a Spitfire,elegant it would not be,but I suggest we could all probally do it.

There the dreaming and realism end for me,since your opponent is now unseen,experienced from Spain already in the art of killing,and he is daring and often fearless in the pursuit of his quarry...you and your mates.

I for one would need a large supply of Y-fronts,for not only were the guys inexperienced in aerial combat,they were defending a small island in broad daylight against a very formidable and undefeated foe that had steam rolled its way to 22 miles from Calais.

Take a look on a clear day on a departure from southern UK,and at 10-20,000 ft just see how close the Huns were.

Sterling stuff indeed,their finest hour it was,bloody marvellous really.

[Neil Ivanovich]

Mind if I join in?...Just wanted to add a few things to this (response laden) topic. I agree with all that we in the UK (as well as the rest of the world) should never forget the sacrifices made, for our life today. But the future of rememberance rests with the likes of my little who asked, last week, what was the Battle of Britain dad? His experiences are limited to having grown up in the former USSR, but of his (limited experiences) he can tell me why they have a 'Victory Day' in Russia, maybe this public holiday should be instituted here, for some its a day of reflection, for some thanks for a day away from the grind..but they all know why.
Secondly, I was in Gallipoli for ANZAC day a couple of years ago, and its is here that a big Turkish Colonel said something along the lines of '....what happened before is past, they are all brothers under the soil now'. Maybe that's something else we could learn, it should be at the very least a European rememberance. (although my Grandmother would disagree since she lost her brother at Monte Cassino).
Finally (thank god they say), I rememeber reading somewher that Winnie didn't come up wih the 'never in the field of human conflict...' bit, and that it was King Leonidas of Sparta, some 2000 years before..can anyone confirm this?
Be Lucky

Neil

[LowNSlow]

IFR, it was great to find out that the BoBMF will be going for another 50 years. The USAF B-52's will still be in service as well! Imagine flying a plane in service that your grandfather flew.

Good points earlier regarding the Bomber Command losses. My dad was an F/E on Halifaxes 1944-45 and lost a lot of friends.

On a slightly different tack, could the invasion have taken place even with air superiority? The invasion fleet predominantly consisted of towed river barges. The Home Fleet may have taken terrible losses, but 3 or 4 capital ships ploughing through that lot would have sent thousands of soldiers to the bottom of the channel without having to fire their guns. Throw in a few cruisers and destroyers as well and it would have been chaos. Remember, the German navy at that point was not large whereas ours was in the top 3 in terms of size. Compare the German fleet with the Allied fleet of 1944, specialist amphibious craft, landing craft for troops and amoured vehicles and more capital ships than you could shake a stick at. Plus their rear areas had been pounded by medium and heavy bombers in the day before 6th June. Admittedly, the Allies were going against a much more heavily fortified coast that the Germans would have had to attack but there is still one hell of a discrepancy in levels of preparation and equipment. This is not meant to decry the efforts of the RAF pilots of all nationalities who daily gave more than anybody should ever have to. I am just wondering how critical to Britain's ultimate survival the Battle really was.

------------------
When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...

[fly4fud]

What would have happened if Britain (or the rest of the world as a matter of fact...) had lost the war. Say everybody had surrended and now what?

- zillions of people not dead?
- might have to speak German now?
- all this money not spent?
- no heroes?

Remember, fire needs three elements, war only two...

[HogWash]

LowNSlow - I have, the C47!

[ockham hold]

The fate of the whole world depended on the Battle Of Britain

[Man-on-the-fence]

"Remember him?

He was no Galahad, no knight sans peur et sans reproche.
Sans Peur? Fear was the second enemy to beat. He was a common, unconsidered man, who for a moment of eternity held the whole future of mankind in his two sweating palms
And did not let go.

Remember him, not as he is portrayed, but as he was. To him you owe most of what you have and love today"

AIr Chief Marshall Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris 1990

......says it all really

Thank you,whoever you are

[Capt Homesick]

I can recommend "Sky Spy", by Ray Holmes. He was on the 2 part ITV programme about the Battle in August, talking about the day he chased 3 Dorniers over London, shooting down 2 and ramming the third. I liked the line about "if you wih to travel incognito by bus, do not carry a six foot long metal propellor blade with bullet holes in it."

[Vmike]

Yo Rommel,
If you think you could fly a Spitfire or a Hurricane, I'd love to see you try! I take up any number of pilots, and non pilots, flying in Tiger Moths, most weekends and I have yet to see a pilot who didn't train on old aeroplanes show the vaguest ability to fly a Tiger Moth, let alone a Spitfire.

Most guys 'n' gals who trained on Cessnas/Pipers et al don't have a clue.
That said, I am told by various members of my club who fly these things, that if you can fly a Tiger moth, even half-competently, then you can sure as hell fly a Spitfire. I'd love the chance to find out.

[fifthcolumns]

FlyforFud your glibness does you no credit.
Read what I said in my first post, read it and
think about it. YOUR right to make comments
like that was hard earned.

Low n Slow your suggestion that a couple
of capital ships ploughing into an invasion
fleet would do the trick even with Luftwaffe
air superiority falls flat in the face of lessons
learned later in the far east.
Perhaps those two ships might have been
the Repulse and the Prince of Wales who
found out the hard way what air superiority
means for capital ships. Instant destruction
and obsolescence.
The RN wouldn't even have reached the English
Channel with an unopposed Luftwaffe overhead.
That's the reality.

[Davaar]

Don't know what Rommel has flown, so don't know if Rommel could. Don't know what "we all" have flown, so don't know about them either. Never flew a Spitfire (Merlin) or a Hurricane (Merlin), but did fly Tiger Moth, Balliol (Merlin) and Firefly T.2 and T.7 (Griffon), plus Cessnas and the like. If "we all" think we can fly a Griffon just by stepping up and strapping the seat to our bottoms, we have something to learn about torque. Very long nose, too. Three points are more difficult than two in a 150.

[mach78]

In regard to flying the Spitfire, probably best to hear from those members who do.
Davar is correct about the length of the nose causing problems,especially on landing with the need to fly an arc on approach.
Also as stated, they were as mentioned earlier "torque machines", needing bootfuls of rudder.However once at altitude things weren't so bad, unlike Me 109 whose pilots used to sufer from leg strain caused by rudder forces.
Ailerons forces were very sensitive except at speed when they became very heavy.Sensitive in pitch,she was said to fly like a fiery horse.
Could you fly one?-I would have thought it wouldn't have been impossible.One must remember the very low flying experience levels of those pilots put into combat in 1940-if you had to, you did.I remember the story of one govt minister turning up and having a circuit never having flown one before.
As regards the effectiveness of airpower over naval aircraft, the Luftwaffe was unique in that they loved the dive bomber of which they had several types.Of course these would have been particularly successful against ships, even a battleship.In fact a very young Hans-Uhlrich Rudel, a man you may not even have heard of, was at that time just beginning to hone his skills on the Stuka.The most decorated German in the entire Wehrmacht in WW2, let alone Luftwaffe, he was, alone, able to sink the Russian battleship Marat single handed.

[This message has been edited by mach78 (edited 12 September 2000).]

[Vx]

Did this exercise happen ? If so it is the best answer to the question.


http://rhino.shef.ac.uk:3001/mr-home/hobbies/seelowe.txt

[cox]

ORAC: You state that the nationalities on your list fought, although it wasn't their country at risk.

I beg to differ: The pilots from Continental Europe were well aware of the fact that if The United Kingdom folded, the war was as good as lost, and with it the chance of regaining freedom for their respective countries. So IMHO and by extension, every non-axis country in Europe was at risk.

I feel that any memorial re the second World War should be neutral in honouring the men and women who died, as therein lies the path towards a more peaceful world.

I always feel ashamed when I see people being nasty to Germans just for being Germans, as there is no call for this.

The local chapter of The British Legion in Aviemore, Scotland counts at least one German amongst its members, and possibly two. What better way to resolve old differences (if any at all) over a beer, swapping lies and playing cards...

By the way, Norwegians and Danes should be added to your list. Interesting, I didn't know that Palestinians fought in BoB...

[This message has been edited by cox (edited 13 September 2000).]

[Skylark4]

I flew over the Somme at low level in a Jodel on my way to the French homebuilders Rally a few weeks ago. That was very sobering.

Mike W

[NudgingSteel]

A bit of a link to the thread "Pilots and the Pen", but this reminded me of a short story by Richard Bach in his book "A Gift of Wings".

In the story entitled "Tower 0400" there is a thought-provoking couple of paragraphs in which the author considers just how much of a bond there is between pilots, regardless of which country they fly and fight for; this bond goes far beyond nationality, uniting people in a common skill and life.

If you get the chance, read it - just one in a whole book of stunning stories.

[DOWN WIND TO ROLL]

just as matter of point chaps...on the first day of the Somme there were 58000 british casualties,of which 20000 were killed.
Bomber Command lost 55000 killed in WW2,almost all were Officers or NCO'S.

[Seaking]

The Few

And most of them are gone,the gay the bright ones,
Whose laughter was too spiral for the earth,
Who sought above the clouds a swifter mirth,
And found a strange peace there,the winged,the fleet ones.

Dawn with its gradual bulges saw them soaring,
And sunset made of earth a kindly toy,
A place of sleep and warmth to eke their joy,
And bring them loves release from their exploring.

And all of them were young,their lustihood
Full-set for zenith,vibrant as a flute;
They knew hopes blossom,not its bitter fruit,
Nor aught of life except that life was good.

We knew them not;they lived with us;we loved them;
We knew their tricks of gesture;how they smiled;
What food and books they liked;but not the wild
Meridians of the heart that fired and proved them.

But now,behind the stars,beyond all sweetness,
Hid in heart of music,voiced in song,
They are ours.The fall of evening finds us strong,
And kind word bring to us their rich completeness.

Anon

"To those who gave their lives to England during the Battle of Britain and left such a shining example to us who follow,these lines are dedicated"

John Gillespie Magee

Per Ardua

They that have climbed the white mists of the morning;
They that have soared,before the worlds awake,
To herald up their foemen to them,scorning
The thin dawn's rest their weary folk might take;

Some that have left other mouths to tell the story
Of high blue battle,-quite young limbs that bled;
How they had thundered up the clouds to glory
Or fallen to an English field stained red;

Because my faltering feet would fail i find them
Laughing beside me,steadying the hand
That seeks their deadly courage-yet behind them
The cold light dies in that once brilliant land...

Do these,who help the quickened pulse run slowly,
Whose stern remembered image cools the brow-
Till the far dawn of Victory know only
Night's darkness,and Valhalla's silence now?

This was his last poem.

[This message has been edited by Seaking (edited 15 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Seaking (edited 15 September 2000).]

[LowNSlow]

fifthcolumns & mach78, good points, I sit corrected. Just watched the film Battle of Britain and the TV coverage of thh Biggin airshow. Great way to spend a day! The perspective of the other side was given by The One That GOt Away.

[Wiley]

Cox, the Palestinians who fought in the RAF were Jewish, and I do believe I saw ‘Palestine’ included in the list of Allied combatants and killed at the end of the ~1970 BoB movie. Today, they’d have been called Israelis, but there was no Israel in 1940. It was then the British Protectorate of Palestine.

Interestingly, in that same list, the Australians suffered the highest percentage of killed from among the very small number of pilots they fielded for the BoB. Whether that says more about their flying skills that it does about their bravery is a moot point and probably best not pursued here. (The Empire Air Training Scheme was still in its infancy in 1940, so very few of the huge number of aircrew from the Empire had actually arrived in England in time to take part in the BoB.)

Let’s give credit where it’s due. The man whose leadership prevented defeat for the British on a tactical level, Keith Park, was a New Zealander. The man who, without a shadow of a doubt could be said to have done the same on the strategic level, Hugh Dowding, was summarily sacked (as was Park) by the RAF hierarchy immediately after the battle and their two most vociferous critics, Leigh-Mallory and Bader, of ‘big wings’ fame, promoted. Had these two latter gentlemen had their way in how the battle was conducted, it would almost certainly have been lost. (Interestingly, the German commanders who ‘lost’ the battle were also promoted.)

I don’t want to douse the passions of anyone here – it’s very good to see that there are so many who still feel so strongly about the BoB and WW2, but please don’t be too ready to fall for the blatantly false propaganda that surrounded the battle. Churchill was a master propagandist, and after the crushing defeat in France earlier that year, he needed something to rally the British people.

If you want a ‘warts and all’ (and accurate) account of the BoB, may I recommend Len Deighton’s excellent book, ‘Fighter’. In that, you’ll see that for the RAF, it was anything but the ‘pip, pip, tally ho, jolly good show’ rubbish we’re so often sold by some so-called ‘historians’. There’s another book, only recently released, that I saw in W.H. Smith only a week or two ago that seems from a quick browse to give a similar account to Deighton’s ‘Fighter’ and to debunk conclusively the myth of ‘the gallant few against the many’. The two sides were almost evenly matched in aircraft and pilot numbers and the British pilots who were committed to the battle were almost all quite well trained and relatively experienced (That early in the War, they were almost all pre-war RAF or RAF Reserve.) However, I accept that ‘experienced’ is a relative term.

After reading ‘Fighter’, (which gives a detailed account of the battle from both sides), you’ll see that, as in most if not all battles, the British, (I daresay like all combatants in every war), blundered from mistake to mistake right up to the end of the battle. The Germans just happened to make a few more, not the least of which was not fitting the long range tanks they had sitting at their French airfields for their fighters. The Bf109s had ten minutes ‘on station’ over SE England. Imagine how the battle would have gone if they had been able to stretch that even by another ten minutes, even with the performance penalty the tanks would have imposed on them? (Which is why the pilots resisted using them.) The long range tanks would have given them much more than that.

Have to agree with those who get a bit goose bumpy when on descent into Gatwick or Heathrow on a fine summer’s day. I often find myself imagining what it must have been like in those very skies in the summer of 1940. (Isn’t it a small area?) In debunking some of the myths, I do not wish in any way to belittle the young men who, when the proverbial blowtorch was applied to their bellies, stood firm, many of them right to the bitter end. We’d all like to think we’d have had the courage to have stood there with them if we’d been there, but (thankfully?) we’ll never know. And most importantly, let’s say a little prayer that our sons will never be asked to do anything even remotely similar some time in the future.

[WebPilot]

Wiley - don't take the Deighton book 'Fighter' as a definitive source. It has many factual errors and Deighton is best known as a writer of fiction after all. I'm not disagreeing with all you say, but prudent researchers never rely on one source!

[Wiley]

Give me a little credit, WebPilot. I've read one or two books on the subject other than 'Fighter'. But to defend Deighton in this case, 'Fighter' was not a novel. He set out to debunk the myths about the battle and tell it like it was, which did not please some people when the book was first published, particularly Douglas Bader’s apologists.

Single-minded hero Bader was, of that there is no doubt, but people who knew him say he could be a very unpleasant character if he put his mind to it. (Let’s face it, to overcome the hurdles he overcame, you’d have to be willing to ruffle a few feathers.) He was also a nightmare for his immediate commanders, being a relatively junior officer in 1940 on first name terms with the very senior officers of the RAF - his old contemporaries pre his 1931 accident. He constantly went straight to the top around his commanders, pushing, among other things, (and in direct conflict with Keith Park’s tactics), his idea of the ‘big wing’ – massed squadrons engaging the Germans in overwhelming numbers.

It was a tactic that worked very well LATER when the RAF had more warning to get their squadrons airborne, but in the BoB itself, such tactics meant that the German bombers were reaching their targets before the RAF squadrons could form up and manoeuvre into attacking position. (Anyone here with any experience of getting three Wings – that’s nine to twelve squadrons – into attack formation? And with aircraft with little more than an hour’s endurance?) Park’s piecemeal, engage-as-quickly-as-you-can attacks, were the only way to break up the formations before they obliterated the Fighter Command stations.

How many people know that at the height of the battle, Manston was briefly abandoned by Fighter Command? And how many know that the only way the fighters kept flying from Manston as long as they did was because the night fighter pilots based there refuelled and rearmed the Spitfires and Hurricanes that were based or staged through there because the ground crews refused to leave the shelters? (the night fighter pilots still had to fly each night as well.)

Anyone who’s flown over southern England will agree that the area of the main battle was incredibly small. The closest German bases were less than 30 miles from Dover, giving the British very little warning of a raid, even with radar.

There was an outcry over Deighton’s mentioning the admittedly isolated incidents where some squadrons refused vectors to engage the enemy – and how the fighter pilots cheered when Goering switched his attacks to the cities, as it took the attacks away from their bases. Deighton was also very critical of the way the RAF kept squadrons not in 10, 11 or 12 Groups completely in the dark about tactics, lessons and developments that were very expensively learned by those front line Groups. The Air Lords were afraid that morale would suffer among the pilots of the squadrons not engaged if they learned how desperate the situation really was. So when a new squadron was committed to one of these Groups, they had to learn all the lessons already learned by the veteran squadrons for themselves – the hard way – where a simple liaison visit beforehand by the new squadrons’ commanders with squadrons already involved would have saved many lives.

Fortunately, the German leaders made even more mistakes.

[fifthcolumns]

The battle continues, but as for snooker
in war victory goes to the side which makes
the least mistakes. We can quibble about
the errors made and I have little doubt
that cowardice and imcompetance were
rife on both sides.But that's war.
But rarely do the events which Deighton
mentioned in his books, come to light.
Nobody really likes to acknowledge that
they happened. It's the nature of things.
Reading between the lines in many books
detailing personal experiences you do
find references. Pilots with 'engine
problems' turning back, others 'escorting'
them back. Others split essing out of every
fight. You find mention in every wartime
memoir of pilots being replaced, sent home
or grounded for one reason or another.
In Mike Spicks book the ace factor he
relates that 40% of engagements were
won by 5% percent of pilots. The other
95% are just cannon fodder.
In the end the result is what matters so we
can appreciate that.

[WebPilot]

I agree with a lot of your comments - Big Wings etc. The only thing I was getting at was the accuracy or otherwise of the Deighton books, but I've no problem with digging into the accepted history, so long as it's based on fact and not conjecture or assumption, which Deighton is sometimes guilty of. I'm not saying Deighton is constantly wrong but there are problems with his books which makes you wonder what else is questionable.

Don't know if you've read the books 'Burning Blue' which is new out this year and 'Battle of Britain New Perspectives' but they're both very good.

[mach78]

LowNslow,what a film, the Battle of Britain.
Giving my age away here, but I saw it when it first came out.In those days, they gave a booklet out which came with the film in 1969.
I still have it.
I enjoyed the coverage from the BBC.I noticed when it came to the 2 Geman pilots, as far as I could tell, they never even gave their names.
Of course one was Gunther Rall, whom I believe had around 280 kills, that with a broken back.
None of the allied pilots approached this kind of figure.Then of course there was Hartmann with 350+ kills-but again that was on the Russian front-where incidently Von Werra ended up -and died

[WebPilot]

Giving my age away too, but I saw BoB on release as well. Probably one of the things that got me into aviation was being taken to Dux in summer 1967 to watch filming. My dad parked ourr car in the lane that used to run up the eastern edge of the airfield before the M11 was built and I recall a Spit and a Hispano/Me tailchasing and coming in low right over our heads. Also recall driving down the lane along the back of the airfield and seeing the 'Chateau' that is in the background of the opening Battle of France shots - just painted flats on scaffolding!

Obviously had an effect, I've been BoB and Spitfire obsessed ever since!

[Wiley]

Off the subject of the BoB, and probably more suited to another current thread on good reading for pilots, but if you want an absolute 'warts and all' read about the bomber offensive, read 'Bomber Command' by Max Hastings, (not to be confused with 'Bomber' by Len Deighton, which is a novel - and for you computer nerds or trivia buffs out there, the first major novel ever to be written on a word processor. How things have changed in such a short time… ;)

This is an excellent read and to be thoroughly recommended. I read it way back in 1972, mostly while sitting in a crowded Squadron crew room. When it mentioned the average loss rates of 10%, (and the much higher loss rates on particular targets, like Berlin), it was very sobering to look up from my book at a group of young men wearing virtually the same uniform as those Bomber Command crews wore and put familiar faces to those losses. I can remember saying to myself “Two aircraft from one squadron failed to return from one mission. That’s fourteen men, or over half the people in this room. From one trip. And this or worse happened on virtually every trip.”

The mathematics say it all. An RAF crew was required to fly thirty missions to complete a tour, (The USAAF usually flew 25, but this varied.) Given average losses of 10% per trip, that meant that statistically, you ‘died’ on average three times to complete a tour. The sad fact is that the vast majority were lost in their first five missions.

Think about it. Early twenties, single pilot IFR, usually with less than 300 hours total flying time, with maybe fifty at the most on operational aircraft. Freezing, and I mean freezing cold and maybe heavy icing. DR navigation and possibly - (if you were lucky) - IMC most of the way. No precision landing aids if you made it back.

And everyone trying to kill you.

Simply put, they knew they had little to no chance of completing a tour, but night after night, still they went up.

The irony is that the bomber offensive grew, at least in part, from the deeply held feelings among senior officers and politicians that they should never ask another generation to go through the horrors they themselves were put through on the Western Front in 1914-18. So, with the best of intentions, they put the cream of another generation through something equally as terrible. The scale might have been not so great, but the attrition rate as a percentage of those involved was immensely higher – and even more sad was the fact that it was the absolute cream of that new generation that was lost. It was a bit like sending only the subalterns and the pick of the senior NCOs over the top to face the Germans machine guns. Britain and all the Commonwealth countries have suffered mightily in the years since from the loss of the next generation of leaders. One look at the calibre of politicians we’ve produced since then is stark testimony to that.

Another book to be highly recommended is ‘No Moon Tonight’ by Don Chalwood. His crew, (from memory, 100 or 101 Sqn?), was the first crew in ten months to complete a tour with the squadron. There are two versions of this book on the market. I believe ‘No Moon Tonight’ was written back in the '50s and pulls a few punches so as not to offend some people. (He’s very coy about his love life etc.) He was asked to rewrite the story some years later. This came out under another title, which I can’t remember, and includes the training in Canada and a bit more grit. If anyone knows the title of this later edition, they might like to post it here. It’s an even better read than the original.

Another highly recommended book, but very hard to find, was written back around 1950. If you can get a copy, grab it, for it is a collector’s item now. ‘They Hosed Them Out’ is a very bitter account of the Air Gunners’ War, both with Bomber Command and the Tactical Air Force, where they flew daylight raids into Holland and the Low Countries in light twins (Bostons, Valettas etc), usually armed with a hand powered twin .303 turret against FW190s and Bf109s armed with 20mm cannon. Their losses were even higher than Bomber Command’s. It was from this book that I first learned the term ‘LMF’, or Lack of Moral Fibre, which was stamped in the logbooks and personnel files of airmen who could not face another mission. Such aircrew were posted to a punishment camp in Northern Scotland where they were treated abominably by RAF Service Policemen guards.

We don’t know how lucky we are.


[This message has been edited by Wiley (edited 20 September 2000).]

[WebPilot]

My personal library has a well thumbed copy of Bomber Command and also No Moon Tonight. Both excellent books. I'd also recommend the The Eighth Passenger by Miles Tripp if you can find it - it's still in print according to Amazon but it's not usually in the bookshops. Tripp was a rather unruly crew member on a Lanc squadron that was on the Dresden raid. They were unusual in having a West Indian rear gunner. It's an excellent book, showing the human side of a war that none of us can really imagine. It includes a postscript chapter which describes Tripp's attempts to make contact with his crew again many years afer the war and how they had coped.

Much respect.

[Wiley]

How about Lord Tedder's autobiography, which dealt to a large degree with his time as OC of the Desert Air Force? There are lessons in that book that would still apply to this day. Very good read.
I don't remember the title. It may have been "With Prejudice".

[WebPilot]

I've not read the Tedder book, but it sounds interesting. Picked up a copy of Sir Arther Harris; war despatch on bomber operations 1939-45 the other day in a book sale for a fiver! V. interesting.

[skua]

Wiley,

Valettas? Michells maybe, but Valettas were fifties evolutions of the Wellington for troop carrying/ para dropping/ bomb aiming training, etc.

I agree Charlwood's book is exceptioonally well written. Unfortunately I leant mine to a "mate" who has yet to return it. I must get hasting's book. Incidentally his autobiography about being a war correspondent is a very good read.

[fifthcolumns]

I saw a documentary recently, ITV I think,
late at night called the Battle of Britain
I watched it somehow expecting it to
be one of a series. But have never seen
a part two. It wasn't all that well made but
it made quite an impact on me.
Essentially it drew on the experiences of
several veterans from one squadron,
the number escapes me. They used
mostly stock shots and BoB film clips.

But it was the way the introduced us to
various members of the squadron, the
two Polish pilots and other characters
showed us photos, described their activities
on and off duty and in a form of chronology
described daily events and what happened
to them. The two poles were lost as were
many of the others. Survivors described
them and their own fate, shot down wounded,
burned.
A woman read a letter from
her fighter pilot fiance, then we learn his
fate.
It was all quite affecting, for the first time
I saw it in real personal terms. I've lost a
couple of friends in accidents, but to see
it as an unremitting daily toll put a whole new
perspective on it.
I don't how I would react if on a daily
basis friends of mine, better pilots and
people were lost in a bitter cycle.

As for bombers and their fate.
Aircrew flying medium and light
bombers like the Blenheim and the
Beaufort who suffered enormous
losses on daylight raids and shipping
sorties must have been of very
strong stuff indeed to carry on
as they did. Stories of whole
squadrons wiped out in a couple
of weeks were common.
I find it difficult to imagine
what it would be like.

[Slasher]

Ive got a VHS copy of "Wings Of The Storm", a bloodey first class Australian-produced documentary of Bomber Command with interviews of former Hali and Lanc pilots/gunners/crew.
Thoroughly recomended.

[Wiley]

Thanks for the correction, Skua. I did hesitate on 'Valettas' at the time of posting, and of course, you're right.

There was a v.light day bomber with a name something like that. I think it was a militarised Lockeed twin, one of the many types the Brits bought in quantity from the U.S. on Lend Lease early in the war, not because they were what they wanted, but because they were available. (Mitchells didn't come until sometime later in the war, at least not in any great quantities.)

The crews of these light twin bombers were little short of Kamakazis. In 'They Hosed Them Out', the author describes a 36 aircraft daylight raid (3 squadrons) into Holland that was bounced by 60+ FW190s and Bf109s. The leading squadron lost eleven (ELEVEN!) of its twelve aircraft in a matter of minutes and the following squadrons, four or five more. The senior surviving pilot in one of the following squadrons aborted the raid and ordered a return to base - and was charged with LMF when he returned.

[WebPilot]

<<Valetta>> Ah-ha! Chance to get the old anorak on. Ventura, by any chance? Slightly souped up Hudson.

[ORAC]

If you ever get a chance to buy a copy, the VV best book on the BoB (IMHO) is "Battle Over Britain" by Francis K Mason F.R. Hist.S., A.R.Ae.S., RAF with German research by Martin Windrow, A.R.Hist.S., C.R.Ae.S.
"A history of the German air assaults on Great Britain, 1917-18 and July-December 1940, and of the development of Britain's air defences between the wars".

As an air defender of 30 years experience, I am in awe of this book, it's knowledge, and it's erudition.

My only sad omission is that I discovered it in a library, could not, despite extreme efforts, find a copy to buy, and had to "lose" it and pay the penalty. As I write it sits beside me with the Norfolk County library stamp on it (1975, forgive my youth).

Sorry for all those I denied the privilege.


(SBN 901928 00 3, published in GB by McWhirter Twins Ltd. 24 Upper Brook Street London, W.1. 1969)

(And if they are/where the same twins who started the Guinness book of Records, I call it quits!)

[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 22 September 2000).]

[WebPilot]

I'd agree on the Mason book. V good, but I'd also give Narrow Margin by Wood & Dempster an honourable mention. Just bought The Most Dangerous Enemy by Bungay - no idea if it's any good yet - havn't read it!

[ORAC]

The Spectator, 16 September. Letter from: Peter J Farrell.

"Sir,

As we celebrate the 60th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, the true story of that battle should be told.

It was not the Spitfires nor the Hurricanes or their pilots which alone won that battle. The victory was due to a remarkable piece of British technology. The Mark 7 - or Bluenose - bullet. This bullet, so called for it's blue nose (in contrast to the rednose or tracer bullet, or blacknose or armour piercing bullet) exploded when it hit it's target and blew a hole a size of your fist.

This was Britain's complete answer to the German air forces self-sealing petrol tank. There was no defence against it. On 15 September the bluenose bullets were issued to all fighter aircraft used in the defence of Britain. On that day 185 German aircraft were destroyed and the next day Goering stopped daylight raids." END

- Now, I am not an expert on such things. What I have suggests that the 15th was a cusp. (RAF losses 35. German 80). However, it seemed to be repeated just over a week later when the weather cleared on the 27th (RAF losses 41, German 67) so I cannot, hand on heart, justify a sudden change in losses which, cause unknown, would seem to have changed the Luftwaffe tactics. And, as I say, the figures seem wrong anyway.

I am more interested in the concept. It would not have been the first time an new engineering idea solved a problem for the glory to be taken by the pilot, particularily in war (Cat's eye Cunningham and AI radar for example). Even if it was not over one day or one week, are the facts about the round correct and was it that dramatic an improvement?

Any professional knowledge out there?

Anyone wishing to respond personally to the letter the address of the magazine is:

[email protected]




[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 24 September 2000).]

[redsnail]

Great posts folks.
ANZAC day is not celebrated as a Victory over any one. Indeed it was the successful retreat off Turkish soil with no casualties is one of the reasons as to why it is remembered. It was Australia's baptism of fire. I can't speak on how it is handled in New Zealand.
WRT to WW2. My dear ol' dad was a lad in Glasgow during WW2. Yeah, he saw some horrible things, things that he finds difficult to talk about even now. My grandfather was in Air Sea Rescue on the Mediteranean Sea. He told me this story. He was watching a dog fight high above him. It was between an American and a German. The American shot down the German but he managed to parachute to safety. My grandfather and team set off to get the downed aviator. As they got him on board they noticed his hands were badly burnt. Eventually they got back to shore and waiting for them was the American aviator. "hello" they all thought. The American approached the German and saw that his hands were burnt and bandaged. He asked the German would he like a smoke (how ironic), the German indicated yes. So the American lit a cigarette and placed it in the Germans mouth so he could smoke it. I suppose it was a "no hard feelings" gesture. I think they respected each other for their skill and let's face it, bravery.
Much of the detail is left out and sadly my grandfather passed on a while ago so I can't get any more stories like that one.
Thanks to all that fought for our freedon.

[PA-28]

I'm afraid the information about the Mk VII .303 round is incorrect. I don't have access to any referance books at the moment but the Mk VII was a spire pointed round. It superceeded/ was introduced to replace, the Mk VI which was round nosed and parellel sided in 1910 ! Basically the pointed tip gives better supersonic performance and reduces drag at sub sonic speeds. Basically better retention of muzzel velicity, giving a flatter trajectory, less aim-off and a greater terminal energy transfer.

The Mk VII z used a nitrocellulose based propellant and this would have been virtually universal by the time of the Battle. Manufacturers coloured the primer annules, black prior to 1918 and after purple for Ball, red tracer, explosive orange and incendiary blue. Apparantly to ease identification bullet tips were also painted, initially this would have been done by service armourers so the blue colour is not necessarilly incorrect, local variations being known. However Blue tip - incendiary, white air to air short range day tracer, gray air to air short range night tracer, black - observation (flash on impact), no colour ball.

Explosive/inceniary rounds were used, some being derived from the Buckingham designs of the First World War, however they tended not to be terribly effective, bear in mind that the bullet diameter is only .303 (7.7 mm)There simply isn't a lot of free payload in these calibers. Also the vast majority of rounds would have passed straight through a wing or fuselage section, very likely the exit hole being larger as the round would have been upset and accompanied by high speed fragments from the entry hole. But certainly not fist sized. (viz. Fabric patches on Hurricanes and I believe that one of the Memorial Flight Spits still has battle damage repaired wings, not BoB though ?)

The Mk VII was in service, I have dug then out of the sand at Dunkirk with mfg date stamps in the mid 36s.

To improve performance you need to go up to 20 mm or so, as the german cannon and later marks of the Spit and Hurricane. Slower rate of fire, worse trajectory, slower muzzel velocity so harder to deflection shoot. If anything it would have been the mechinical computing gunsights coming into service that would have improved the average pilots lot as these would at least allow accurate shooting of cannon.

Interestingly enough the ADEN cannon series is a reworking of the German MG 151/15 and MG 20, both of which the Luftwaffe would have used in the BoB.

[PA-28]

More details in :-

British Aircraft Armament Vols 1 - 2
Aut R Wallace Clarke
Pub Patrick Stevens Ltd.
ISBN 1 85260 223 6

[mach78]

The incendiary ammunition was I'm sure better known by as de Witt.

The contrast in the use of firepower was interesting between the 2 sides.
On the one hand,the British with the relatively small calibre .303-the 8 Brownings on the Spitfire and Hurricane I suppose was similar to a shotgun effect,of course very effective at short range.

The Germans on the other hand with the (20mm?) cannon on either wing, and (7.92mm?)
machine guns was probably more potent in the hands of a good shot.However it would be easier to miss the target, but when you hit, you sure did.

Much is said of the lesser experience of the British, sometimes described as the gentlemen V the players.Perhaps the scales were more evenly matched by their choice of weapons.

[PA-28]

A link to a series of charts comparing weight of fire and energy :-
http://hipe.uia.ac.be/~gustin/scratch/fgun/fgun-ta.html

The Brownings would be 'synchronised' so that a cone of 0.303 fire converged at 300 yrds (I think)I seem to remember that individual pilots would arrange for this range to be considerably reduced and only open fire at much reduced ranges if possible. There was quite bit of debate as to the desirabillity of using cannon, a number of Aces were able to arrange to fly in the eight gun fighters. Differing wings were built, the type A, retrospectively applied to the original eight Brownings, type B two Hispano 20mm and four .303, the type C which could be fitted with type A or B configurations, or four 20mm Hispanos, also known as the 'Universal' All but about 30 of the spits in the BoB were type A, these being B wing Mk Is. Type E carried two 20mm and two .5 inch but came later.

Regarding the original Spectator post it turns out that there was a Mk VII incendiary Mk 7 bullet, incendiary not explosive, but I think that the comments above still hold. Aircraft could be very difficult to shoot down, I've just come across a page, and promptly lost it, where a US Carrier fighter returns to land on with two 37mm AA hits, six 20mm and 270 rifle caliber bulletholes.!!

Anybody know how many rounds a Spitfire or Hurricane would carry?

[Man-on-the-fence]

Sorry for splitting hairs but I believe the Incendiary bullet was called de Wilde (apologies if spelling is wrong).
Much loved by pilots because the could see where they were hitting.

Thanks all for some very interesting posts

[mach78]

Cheers M-O-F -I wasn't exactly sure myself.
Interesting link PA-28.