VMC at Night (again)

[Camp Freddie]

I have been operating under the assumption that to fly VMC at night in Class G in the UK you must do this accordance with the basic IFR rule i.e 1000ft above highest fixed object within 5 miles of track,( MEF + 1000 or SSA)

it has been suggested to me that you only need 500 ft separation from terrain at night as long as you remain VMC and have read several old threads looking for the answer to confirm this but remain confused by conflicting answers

Q. can you fly with less separation i.e. 500 ft from terrain at night in class G, or do you need 1000ft ?

what I need is a source reference for your answer

hopefully

CF

[misterbonkers]

500ft when your SVFR in controlled airspace?

[Camp Freddie]

misterbonkers,

to confirm my question relates to class G only

regards

CF

[ShyTorque]

CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 19
SECTION VI INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES
Instrument Flight Rules
28 (1) In relation to flights within controlled airspace rules 29, 31 and 32 shall be the
Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In relation to flights outside controlled airspace rules 29 and 30 shall be the
Instrument Flight Rules.
Minimum height
29 Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 5, in order to comply with the Instrument
Flight Rules an aircraft shall not fly at a height of less than 1000 feet above the highest
obstacle within a distance of 5 nautical miles of the aircraft unless:
(a) it is necessary for the aircraft to do so in order to take off or land;
(b) the aircraft is flying on a route notified for the purposes of this rule;
(c) the aircraft has been otherwise authorised by the competent authority; or
(d) the aircraft is flying at an altitude not exceeding 3000 feet above mean sea level
and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

Freddie, See Para 29 (d).

In view of that, the 500 foot rule still applies.

[Camp Freddie]

thanks Shytorque,

thats just what I need, so as long as you are below 3000ft altitude, 500ft separation is OK, but as soon as you are in the high ground and have to fly >3000ft QNH you need 1000ft separation.

do you concur?

regards

CF

[ShyTorque]

I think that's what the rules say.

But it's just an English plot to finally get one over on the Scots. :E

[Camp Freddie]

ShyTorque,

thankyou very much, all is clear now, at least until tommorrow morning :)

regards

CF

[212man]

and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface

That's the key to not following the 1000ft requirement.

[ShyTorque]

Effectively, a pilot can comply with the IFR in Class G under the same "easement" as when under "Special VFR" inside CAS.

[Camp Freddie]

ShyTorque,

armed with this new and exciting info, I checked JAR-OPS 3 3.250 and that says that basically minimum flight altitudes shall be determined by the operator in his ops manual, subject to national limits etc.

so i checked my company ops manual and that says minimum 1000 AGL doh!,
so I am back to where I started, but at least I know that the national limits are more generous :)

regards

CF

[JimL]

Camp Freddie,

It appears from your profile that you are an offshore pilot; if that is so you also have to comply with JAR-OPS 3.465(a)(2) - VFR operating minima. Whilst not placing any constraint on your cruising level this rule does require that, at night, you have a cloud base of 1,200ft and a visibility of 5km when flying overwater and out of sight of land.

This is the rule that keeps you above MSA unless the required conditions are met - i.e. no en-route descents unless all forecasts and reports indicate compliance.

Jim

[SASless]

JimL,

Under FAR Part 135, for Air Taxi (commercial) operations, Night VFR has a requirement for adequate surface lighting to control the aircraft. How does one do that offshore at night in areas where there are no surface lights? (Assuming the minimum weather exists....overcast, no starlight, no Moon visible).

§ 135.207 VFR: Helicopter surface reference requirements.

No person may operate a helicopter under VFR unless that person has visual surface reference or, at night, visual surface light reference, sufficient to safely control the helicopter.

Does CAA/JAR/EASA rules have a similar restriction?

US FAR Part 91....Non-commercial Rules does not have a visible light requirement as does Part 135.

The question begged is if there are no surface lights, no natural lighting, no visible horizon....and control of the aircraft requires use of the instruments as no outside reference is visible.....are you not IMC and not VFR thus requiring IFR be complied with and not VFR despite the weather minimums being at or above VFR standards.

Would this situation also apply to offshore night operations similar to that existing during the latest accident? Do the rules allow one to operate VFR in IMC conditions thus setting a trap for the unlucky?

[ShyTorque]

CF, At least you can fly iaw "1,000ft AGL" and not "1,000ft above the highest obstacle". Using a bit of prior planning and a radalt, that's sensible enough.

(Thinks....my days of "n.b. 150ft agl" for NVG night transits are hopefully and thankfully over).

[Camp Freddie]

ShyTorque,
good distinction AGL v Obstacle, it does give a reaonable amount of latitude.

JimL,
I am aware of the VFR weather minimum in 3.465, what I was really talking about was absolute minimums over land.

generally speaking any mention of VFR at night is confusing, because we have already established that under the ANO we are talking about VMC under the Instrument flight rules, even if you are flying your 206 around.

regards

CF