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Mr. Hat
8th Mar 2009, 05:20
Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/10/eveningnews/main4791429.shtml?tag=main_home_storiesBySection)



Capt. Sully Worried About Airline Industry

CBS Evening News: Flight 1549 Pilot Exclusively Tells Katie Couric His Fear About Future Pilots
Feb. 10, 2009 | by Katie Couric


(CBS) The amazing story of US Airways Flight 1549 might have frequent fliers thinking more about something often taken for granted: the experience of the pilot. The captain of Flight 1549 told CBS News anchor Katie Couric that he's concerned the industry will soon have trouble attracting experienced pilots. The reason? Money.


"One way of looking at this might be that, for 42 years, I've been making small regular deposits in this bank of experience: education and training," said US Airways Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger. "And on January 15, the balance was sufficient so that I could make a very large withdrawal."

Sullenberger is uncharacteristically worried. He's worried that when it comes to the bank of experience for airline pilots, there may someday be a significant shortage.

"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.

There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.

But now: "The airline employees have been hit by an economic tsunami. Pay cuts, loss of pensions, increased hours every day, days per week, days per month," Sullenberger said. "It's a heavy burden."

Last year alone, more than 6,000 commercial pilots were either furloughed or permanently laid off.

Couric said: "What effect do you think that is having on the industry itself and on the people's it's attracting?"

"I know some of our pilots, who have been laid off, have chosen not to return," Sullenberger said. "I can speak personally, for me and my family, that my decision to remain in this profession that I love has come at a cost to me and my family."

Sully says five years ago he and the rest of his fellow pilots at US Airways gave back almost $6.8 billion in pension, wages and other concessions, to keep the airline flying.

And while annual salaries can average anywhere from $37,000 for a first officer and well into the six figures for a captain, the shrinking workforce means pilots are often spread very thin.

As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.

"It started with deregulation in 1978. The onset of low-cost carriers really started to put stress on the system," said Peter Goelz, the former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board. "Then you couple that with 9/11, the spike in fuel costs, you've really got the prescription for a very challenged industry."

The majority of pilots hired today are civilians coming out of flight school, who began their career at smaller airlines. And few have the military background Sullenberger had flying for the Air Force.

In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.

"I think that there will always be people who want to do this," Sullenberger said. "It just may not be the same people who are doing it now."

"Are you concerned that that means if another situation like this one comes up in the future, you won't have as qualified a pilot flying the plane?" Couric asked.

"That just follows doesn't it?" Sullenberger said.

But despite the harsh economic realities, for the first time in jet aviation history, U.S. commercial carriers have gone two consecutive years without a crash fatality.

When contracted about Sullenberger's concerns, the Air Transport Association, which represents the principle U.S. carriers, had no comment.

The story of Flight 1549 has been a boost to the country. But it's also given those who work in the struggling industry a shot in the arm.

"Probably the most important words I've heard have been from my peers. That I have made them proud," Sullenberger said. "That they feel pride in themselves - a pride in their profession they hadn't felt for years. Sometimes decades. And they also tell me, especially ones at my airline who know me, that they were glad that I was the one flying that flight that day."

"Why does that make you feel so good?" Couric said.

"Their praise isn't given easily or readily," Sullenberger said.

But this pilot hopes his moment in the spotlight will remind the airlines - and those who fly - that attracting those with the right stuff may make all the difference.


Sums up the current thoughts of many.

Hudson River Plane Crash: Hero Pilot Chesley Sullenberger Slams Airline Pay Cuts | World News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Hudson-River-Plane-Crash-Hero-Pilot-Chesley-Sullenberger-Has-Pay-Cut-And-Pension-Stopped/Article/200902415228851?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15228851_Hudson_River_Plane_Crash%3A_Hero_Pilot_ Chesley_Sullenberger_Has_Pay_Cut_And_Pension_Stopped)


Hero Hudson River Pilot Slams Pay Cuts


11:03pm UK, Tuesday February 24, 2009

The hero pilot of a jet that crashed into New York's Hudson River has told an inquiry that pay cuts like his threaten the safety of passengers.

Plane crash in Hudson River

Landing plane in river was a 'death sentence', air controller tells inquiry

Captain Chesley Sullenberger revealed the news during an inquiry into last month's accident.

Danville Holds Celebration For US Airways Pilot Chesley Sullenberg

Sullenberger: fears over safety

Taking a swipe at the state of the US airline industry, he said the most important safety equipment on a plane was a well-trained pilot.

He said the industry had been hit by an "economic tsunami" and that many airline staff were finding themselves unable to cope.

He told the hearing he had recently personally suffered a 40% reduction in his salary and his pension had been "terminated".

He added he did not know one pilot who would be recommending the profession to their children.

"We must not let economic pressures detract from focus on safety," he said.

Cpt Sullenberger glided the Airbus A320 into the river after it collided with birds and lost power in both engines. All 155 people aboard survived.

During the incident, he told the hearing that crews had to "expect the unexpected".

An air traffic controller told how he believed he thought the decision to ditch the plane was a 'death sentence'.

Controller Patrick Harten, in command of US Airways Flight 1549, said: "I believed at that moment I was going to be the last person to talk to anyone on that plane alive.

"People don't survive landings on the Hudson River. I thought it was his own death sentence."

Both men were speaking at the US government's house transportation and infrastructure committee in Washington.

The inquiry is examining what safety lessons can be learned from the accident on January 15.

Falling Leaf
8th Mar 2009, 07:09
In 1992, roughly 90 percent of those hired by major carriers had flown for the military. By last year, fewer than 30 percent had.


That is an amazingly high percentage of military pilots in 1992, I wonder how the percentages in Australia and NZ compare to these?

As an ex military pilot myself, I was a little incensed that I had to do a Instrument Rating in a Duchess to prove to CASA that I knew how to fly an ILS. I guess all those instrument ratings in fast jets didn't quite meet the grade when compared to the Duchess.

Back to the bigger picture, I myself would not recommend a career as a commercial pilot to my children. Sign of the times I guess. Good article.

Van Gough
8th Mar 2009, 07:19
I myself would not recommend a career as a commercial pilot to my children.

agreed. As much as I enjoy it, there are much better career options.

mcgrath50
8th Mar 2009, 07:39
But if you kid had the bug that you guys had at that age, would you stop them?

I find it a little ridiculous that he imply's that a pilot who didn't have military experience couldn't have made that landing. A good pilot is a good pilot, no matter what the background!

jokova
8th Mar 2009, 07:43
As an ex military pilot myself, I was a little incensed that I had to do a Instrument Rating in a Duchess to prove to CASA that I knew how to fly an ILS. I guess all those instrument ratings in fast jets didn't quite meet the grade when compared to the Duchess.


Grounds for exemption? Just a tad precious? No more hoops for Sully?

ozaggie
8th Mar 2009, 10:26
Well I have read some crap in my short time on the old orb, but ', as much as I admire Sully's effort over and on the Hudson, I cannot and never will agree that we are less well off vis a vis Airline safety because less than 90% of crew are comeng from the military training system. Did I read it wrong? Am I mistaken? In 21 years of comm. flying, almost all ag., I have never found a military pilot that successfully transitioned to the real world. The saviour of Hudson River was no doubt Sullenberger and his f/o, but I fail to understand how it was anything military that assisted. He is experienced, highly airline trained and very current. That is what saved the day. Thinking out
side of the square is what was required, and that is the first quality that the military bashes out of you in boot camp. Anyhoo, that is my theory...

Mr. Hat
8th Mar 2009, 10:51
Yeah not intened as a military vs civilian thread. More to the point it was about how the industry isn't a place that will attract the best candidates anymore due to the steep decline in conditions.

"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.

There was a time when airline pilot was a coveted job - glamorous, respected, with plenty of benefits.

Experienced intelligent crews are likely to gather skills and experience and leave for overseas where conditions at least partially resemble what the did years ago.

paulg
8th Mar 2009, 10:54
This statement is not attributed in the article to Captain Sully. Perhaps it came from background research by the journalist. Sully himself is quoted as talking about declining pay and conditions. :ugh:

Kangaroo Court
8th Mar 2009, 11:55
I notice that he takes no responsibility for hitting the geese that showed up as a radar return in the first place.

Watch the birdies guys!

F Scaler
8th Mar 2009, 13:23
Think Roo thought Sully pre-ordered the Foie Gras from the business galley:}

Lodown
8th Mar 2009, 15:42
No one disagrees that Sully did a stupendous job. The stars were aligned that day for him. If I can add my own interpretation on the matter...His comments military vs civilian should be taken in view of the USA experience and not the Australian experience. Military pilots in the USA fly all over the world in all types of aircraft and get additional training throughout their military career. Same happens in Australia. The experiences the military receive are diverse. (Not saying that the USAF or RAAF is better or worse.) The GA industry in Australia has received diverse experiences as well. Different from the military in many ways, but diverse nonetheless.

Compare this with the pilot route to airline flying from private training in the USA. Many privately trained pilots in the USA have a cushy route to the airlines in terms of flying experiences. Most would not have experienced an engine failure, or had to tell passengers that they can't get to the destination for X reason. Very few would have flown in and out of dirt strips or had the experiences associated with extended dead reckoning navigation or had to make decisions based on being unsure of position and unable to access radar coverage. The time between getting let loose with a CPL and IR in a piston aircraft and a multicrew turbine in the USA has been short. It has made for a sheltered pilot.

I suspect that that is what Sully is meaning, but with his background, he has used the terms "military" and civilian.

The Stooge
8th Mar 2009, 21:15
As Capt. James Ray of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association said: "Twenty years ago, the average airline pilot would maybe work, oh, 70 to 80 hours, about three times a month. Now, that pilot's working 70 to 80 hours every week," he said.

What are we bitching about, CAO 48 is apparently kind to us. We can only do half of that. :ok:

RENURPP
8th Mar 2009, 22:41
Australia's finest :yuk:

In their own lunch boxes.

Those years of ego building becomes an issue :eek:

kotoyebe
8th Mar 2009, 23:18
Think Roo thought Sully pre-ordered the Foie Gras from the business galley

A US domestic service serving Foie Gras? More like he'd be ordering a twinkie and a half a cup of coca cola. And that would be US domestic First Class!

Horatio Leafblower
8th Mar 2009, 23:40
He has used the opportunity of this fleeting moment to highlight what is the greatest threat to our careers, and he has linked "pilot pay" with "safety".

What other opportunity did we have to deliver the message? None.

Pilots are all silvertails and are all paid $300k to work 6 months of the year... we ALL know that! :bored:

Any bleating made by the general pilot population (or worse, the union) about the way things are going would be regarded the same as Macquarie Bank executives demanding $10m bonuses this year. :=

Sully has capitalised on this opportunity to make a statement FOR ALL OF US.

He has done it in a way that has caught media attention and made the all- important link to safety. What a champion :ok: :D

Trojan1981
8th Mar 2009, 23:46
There are mostly great guys around but idiots pop up from all backgrounds
Have to agree, they exist in both the ADF and in GA.
Not really worth a debate.

Tankengine
9th Mar 2009, 01:30
The fact that he is an experienced glider pilot also helps.
Not the gliding per say, as much as a well rounded 40 years of experience - gliding, military and airline.:ok:
The ability to "think outside the square":}

Captain Sand Dune
9th Mar 2009, 02:10
Have to agree, they exist in both the ADF and in GA.
Not really worth a debate.
True. A couple of good examples from both sides on this thread.:hmm:

Capt Kremin
9th Mar 2009, 03:20
Getting away from the infantile discussion re:military pilots, F/O Jeffrey Skiles made the following observation...

"People want to relate it and say it's luck, divine intervention or heroism, but my thought was everybody was just doing their jobs,"

I happen to agree entirely, well almost, some luck played out in that the altitude of the birdstrike was such that they at least had the option of the Hudson, the river was dead calm, no pleasure boats were operating in the landing zone, plus it was daytime.

Otherwise what we saw here was a bog standard, albeit well-trained Flight and Cabin crew doing their jobs, ably assisted by ATC and the rescue craft. I'd like to think that just about any professional aircrew, given the same situation could have achieved much the same result.

Am I wrong?

The Bunglerat
9th Mar 2009, 03:51
No Kremin, you're not. I watched Sully and Skiles on the Late Show with David Letterman recently, and whilst they were gracious and at times even quite entertaining in their own right, even they were the first to admit that they're sick and tired of all the attention being lavished on them. Yes, they did a great job, but they didn't do anything that any other well-trained crew wouldn't have done exactly the same way in the same situation.

goddamit
9th Mar 2009, 08:32
sorry I don't read it like most of you. Sully was from the military, his remarks about experience just used the military as an example(better choice of words etc may have worked more) I regarded his intention as comparing a long time in the military to a short time in GA(in some countries a B737 FO may only have 500hrs tops when he starts off). If I had to say something similar, it would be like: a guy who has 5000hrs clocked up by his own will through GA & regionals with turboprop command time would be an 'experienced' & seasoned pilot. Not to ever intend anything less of the ADF since I didn't mention them. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe skygods & ADF are really the epitome of the aviation.
just kidding, no please don't shoot, noooo :ouch:

Slasher
9th Mar 2009, 08:57
No one disagrees that Sully did a stupendous job. The stars were aligned that day for him.

Yep they sure were. Not taking anything away from the bloke, have a look at the variables that couldve turned it the other way (which Im sure Sullenberger realises):

1. It was day not night
2. The wx was good not bad
3. No crowded boats in his way
3. As a follow-on from the above he managed to arrest the sink rate at just the right time
4. No one drowned despite the Ditching button not being pushed (understandable given the circumstances).

If this hadve occured in crap wx at night, or just 1 or 2 unknown holes in the swiss cheese it wouldve instead been a tragedy. The lawyers wouldve had a field day.

Compare that to the Ethiopian 767 ditching years ago. Perhaps the driver of that aircraft would've been in the Hero cage too if that bloodey hijacker hadntve grabbed the controls at the last minute. He mightve made it onto Letterman too.

Any outcome depends on many variables, and can cause you to look good or bad. Recall the A330 glide to the Azores - the boss stuffed up when he suffered "conveniant thinking" by believing it was computer error when fuel was obviously p!ssing out of the aeroplane (just as 2nd Officer Hobie did in "The High And The Mighty"). But, given the ensuing circumstances he did what he had to do and made it to the Azores. So he became a Hero in the public eye. Variables? If the Azores was 100nm further, if it wasn't in daylight, wx crappey etc.

Again not taking anything away from Sullenberger, the heroes of this damn industry are those who take the gray (non black and white) decisions that prevent their flights from making page 1 of the papers. For example had the A330 boss ignored commercial pressure and made the hard decision to divert when fuel first became doubtful, the event wouldnt have occured and we'd therefore wouldntve heard anything about it.

Kangaroo Court
9th Mar 2009, 16:39
A380,

There so many geese they showed up as a primary return on the ATC radar tapes when they went back to look at it.

By the way, he got up above 3,000 feet. There's absolutely nothing remarkable about hitting the Hudson River, only that nobody died.

Metro man
9th Mar 2009, 23:23
"I don't know a single professional pilot who would recommend that their children follow in their footsteps," he said.

Indeed, I will encourage my son to become a doctor, unless he is absolutely determined to fly. Government paid training, better pay and job security, recession proof, no medicals or base checks.

In my experience the military intensifies what the pilot is when he goes in. Someone with good people skills comes out better, having been taught leadership and managment. But an a**hole going in just comes out even worse.

distracted cockroach
10th Mar 2009, 00:26
Horatio Leafblower wrote:

" Good on him
He has used the opportunity of this fleeting moment to highlight what is the greatest threat to our careers, and he has linked "pilot pay" with "safety".
What other opportunity did we have to deliver the message? None.
Pilots are all silvertails and are all paid $300k to work 6 months of the year... we ALL know that!
Any bleating made by the general pilot population (or worse, the union) about the way things are going would be regarded the same as Macquarie Bank executives demanding $10m bonuses this year.
Sully has capitalised on this opportunity to make a statement FOR ALL OF US.
He has done it in a way that has caught media attention and made the all- important link to safety. What a champion."

Entirely agree HL:ok:
He was under no obligation to make this statement, and the fact that he did means he really wanted to make a point. He does us all a favour by doing so. If anyone else had said it, they would have got NO media coverage.
All the hoo-haa about civil v military etc is irrelevent. It is about pay v experience v safety.
The decline of standards of pay in our industry is all over these boards. Many of the lower paid jobs will be taken only by the inexperienced, trying to gain that experience so they can apply for better paid jobs. In the past the lower paid jobs were flying in GA and commuter airlines. Now they are flying jets. It is world wide phenomenon and I'm glad someone who is actually listened to, has made the point very publicly.
Unfortunately it will make no difference. Jetstar NZ (for example) isn't going to increase the amount it pays F/Os just because Sully says so.
It will only make a difference if the REGULATORS listen and start imposing minimum experience levels for certain positions. Then the "airlines" may have to offer more attractive packages to get suitably qualified pilots.
We live and hope!!