Replacing Cessna seatbelts - GA

[papa oscar]

One of the results of Part M is that our seatbelts need replacing. As Cessna give a ten year life to the seatbelts and the seatbelts in our aircraft are original (35 years old) they have to be changed before our maintenance organisation will issue an ARC.

Has anyone come across this and is there a cheaper way of complying without replacing with new.
The belts are standard static ones with a shoulder strap on both front seats.

If the seatbelts are re-webbed, who could check them and issue a EASA Form 1 so they can be used.
The companies who do the re-webbing don't issue 8130's, only a Certificate of Conformity and new TSO tags for a further 10 years.

[NutLoose]

I have had belts rewebbed in the past and it is a lot cheaper, but it depends on the make, Pacific Scientific can be rewebbed by them in the UK see

Pacific Scientific (http://www.pacscieurope.com/index.asp?page=seat)

Amsafe not sure about but try

Amsafe Aviation (UK) - U.K. (http://www.airframer.com/direct_detail.html?company=120219)

You don't tell me the aircraft model or make BTW so I am a bit limited in what I can help you with..

Part M to be honest just sucks....... It is so full of holes you could drive a legal horse and cart through them........ define manufacturer... Cessna I believe gives the Aerobat belts a 5 year life, but the makers of the belts if I am right do not.

Cessna as the Aircraft manufacturer tell you you must do the valve guide inspections in accordance with Lycomings SB, now if it is a later guide that tells you to extend it to 1000 Hrs, but the EASA AD tells you to ignore it.....
But on the other hand EASA part M tells you you must go with the Aircraft manufacturers recommendation...... Bit of a chicken and egg situation......


Cessna on a 152 give a life of 5 years on the brake hoses.. but if you do a really critical search you will find a newsletter issued in 1985 telling you if it has the teflon hoses installed they are on condition and they will update the manual presently...........................24 years later and I am still awaiting the manual being corrected............ such is Cessna!

[papa oscar]

Thanks Nutloose and those who have sent PM's. The aircraft is a Cessna.

One of the issues is that the Cessna Maintenance Manual does not allow for overhaul, only replaced, but allows the belts to be rebuilt in accordance with FAR 42.3.
Still wondering what the difference is between overhauled and rebuilt as you can replace them with rebuilt items :ugh:

NOTE: The terms overhaul and replacement as used within this section are defined as
follows:
Overhaul - Item may be overhauled as defined in FAR 43.2 or it can be replaced.
Replacement - Item must be replaced with a new item or a serviceable item that is
within its service life and time limits or has been rebuilt as defined in FAR 43.2.

[NutLoose]

I would be interested where they found that information, I went through the Cessna Current manual today and bar the 50 Hr inspection it has no special requirements to replace the belts at 10 years, and the servicing section also simply calls for inspection, if there is any wear etc then yes, but a quick look I could not find any calender period on them, not trying to step on toes, just I have them on my approvals so was checking to see if I was missing something.

[Granite City Flyer]

I would be interested where they found that information

They found it on page 2-25 of the current Cessna 177B manual, its in a similar location of all the current Cessna SE service manuals. Page was ammended with temp. revision 4 dated 7 Oct 2002. It states a 10 years replacement life with no option to overhaul.

[camlobe]

The 10 year life statement from Cessna is definately in the MM for the 'new-build' 172R/S models. Don't know if it is in the MM for the Legacy models, as we don't look after any old 'un's. However, nutloose can't find it so maybe it only affects the Restart models. Anyone else here got access to up-to-date Legacy Maintenance Manuals? Is papa oscar about to get ripped off?

Just had to replace a set in one of our locally based 'S' models. The CAA wouldn't budge as the manufacturer (albeit of the airframe) gives a life of 10 years. The second 'S' is coming in in a couple of weeks, and it is also 10 years old. The full set of belts from Cessna is F***ing expensive, and as far as Cessna is concerned, it doesn't matter if they have never been used. After 10 years they are required to be replaced. 5-11-00 Component Time Limits refers.

NOTE: This limitation only refers to Cessna-supplied units. Refer to my comment on BAS units below.

The CAA are unwilling to use any descretion, issue an exemption or make any decision, thereby ensuring they will not be in a potentially exposed position (i.e. they will not permit any form of common sense to attract perceived American-style litigation).

Therefore, once again, the 'just-in-case' mentality makes light aircraft ownership and operation unnecessarily, and prohibitally, expensive.

Digressing slightly, I quote from EASA themselves (NPA 2008-07 refers):

"On the available evidence, the heavier regulation of the regulated sector does not appear to have resulted in any safety benefit".

There is a firm in the US who market an STC for four-point harness' for Cessna's. IIRC, they are BAS (Google is your friend) It may well be cheaper to get one of their kits and have it installed. And, no, it shouldn't be an EASA Major Mod through an horrifically expensive Part 21 design organisation as BAS belts have been fitted to numerous G reg Cessna's over the years. Hence, EASA Minor Mod only due to precedence.

Hope the above is of some help.

camlobe

[Granite City Flyer]

Definately in alot of the current SE Cessna service manuals I have (Most of 100/200 series). Same section gives lives for trim tab actuator (3 years/1000 hour OVERHAUL), vac filter (500 hours), Vac hoses (10 years), pitot and static system hoses (10 years), Engine hoses (10 years for teflon, 5 for rubber), Air filter (500 hours/36 months), Engine control cables (at TBO), Vac pump coupling (6 years or vac pump change), dry vac pump (500 hours), standby vac pump (500 hours). Passenger, pilot and co-pilot restraint assemblies - 10 years.

BAS belts already approved, see bull**** castles website for AAN's (including generic one issued by the CAA).

[NutLoose]

I have the full ATP Cessna Single Library on DVD it is current BLOODY EXPENSIVE!!!!!! and the page which you are referring to and I know about already shows this, as you can see its change 4 BUT NO LIFE LIMIT SHOWN........ now it covers the 177 series, so though you check either the A or B it brings up the same manual, also in the seat belt servicing section, it too gives no life limit. The Manual IS giving 7/ 2000 as the last ammended date :mad::mad::mad::mad: WTF are we paying for!!!!!!!

http://www.skonk.net/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=662&g2_serialNumber=1

Definately in all of the current SE Cessna service manuals I have (Most of 100/200 series). Same section gives lives for trim tab actuator (3 years/1000 hour OVERHAUL), vac filter (500 hours), Vac hoses (10 years), pitot and static system hoses (10 years), Engine hoses (10 years for teflon, 5 for rubber), Air filter (500 hours/36 months), Engine control cables (at TBO), Vac pump coupling (6 years or vac pump change), dry vac pump (500 hours), standby vac pump (500 hours). Passenger, pilot and co-pilot restraint assemblies - 10 years.#

Don't forget on the likes of a 152 changing all the rubber brake hoses every 5 years and EVERY seal in the brake system, that means stripping the lot down!

Tempest Vac pumps do not need the 500 Hr life I believe as it has an inspection window for wear.

Additionally if its called up in the manual as items like tappets are, then it's 100 hrs NOT 150 hrs as before..

The only way around this is to write a maintainance schedule and get it approved, thought about calling mine CAA/LAMS/A/2007 ;)

[Granite City Flyer]

The last ammendment I have for Cessna SE manuals is change 5 dated Jan 15 2008. The page you displayed is 1 revision behind. PM me your e-mail and I'll send you a scan of page 2-25 that has these time limits on.

[Granite City Flyer]

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/GraniteCityFlyer/2-25.jpg

[papa oscar]

Yep, I've got the same manuals from Avantext.
Just waiting for a reply from the CAA regards rewebbing the belts.
In the USA they can have them rewebbed and a 'Certificate of Conformity' issued and everything is fine. In EASA land it appears to be different, so being in EASA has put me at a disadvantage - so what the f**k is the point of EASA when the country the aircraft is made and hold the Type Certificate accept different rules.:ugh:

[jxk]

Also in the nonsense category: How about small dents in the wing skins caused by hail? How would you convince a surveyor that the aircraft is airworthy with them? You and I know that the belts and wings are perfectly OK but how do you satisfy these requirements without vast expense?
If your Part G organisation is approved can they still do an ARC recommendation despite these minor problems? In the old days a licensed engineer could sign these things off - I think!

[Granite City Flyer]

Also in the nonsense category: How about small dents in the wing skins caused by hail? How would you convince a surveyor that the aircraft is airworthy with them?


Your surveyor actually looks at the aeroplanes?:eek: What a terribly old fashioned and potentially troublesome way of doing business.;)

[cessnarepairman]

I have just done an ARC renewal on a C177, as far as I could tell there was no life limit on the seat belts. There is on the C182, as we know it is 10 years, notified on a temporary revision. The C152 on the other hand, no lives on the seat belts I have checked the manual & the TR's.

On the 177 BTW the belts were in perfect condition & in a colour to match the interior, I bet you could not match those again.

The trouble with EASA & part M, If you ask me, they are trying to take away the engineers role of decision making. In the past, belts in good condition, leave them. Belts frayed change them. Simple.

Now they do not trust us to make our own decisions, if the book says change it, then change it. In the past the manufacturers lives were a recommendation not the law.

[Granite City Flyer]

Just looked in my manuals. A 1977 Cessna 150 has the 10 year life according to the service manual (page2-27 date 7 OCT 2002), the same part number harness is listed in the 152 IPC, but the 152 service manual has no life limit.:ugh: Glad the harness knows what aircraft its fitted too, maybe that explains the cost!

However, all 3 of my current 177 manuals (68-78FG, 71-75RG and 76-78RG) have the 10 year life for the harness.

[papa oscar]

I have just done an ARC renewal on a C177, as far as I could tell there was no life limit on the seat belts. There is on the C182, as we know it is 10 years, notified on a temporary revision. The C152 on the other hand, no lives on the seat belts I have checked the manual & the TR's.

Best get it back in and change the belts!!!

[cessnarepairman]

It's in Poland now, It's their problem!

[NutLoose]

Just got my update from ATP and it is Still NOT in the manual :mad::mad::mad:

[papa oscar]

Good news. Managed to find a company who can rebuild the seatbelts and issue a 8130-3 at a very good price.:)
The belts have been done and are now back in the aircraft. All sorted.
If anyone needs any belts doing, drop me a PM.

[RAY QUINN]

hi papa oscar, I think I am about to be hit with the seat belt problem would greatly appreciate the name and details of the company you used they are for a 177a 1968 and I think are probably original any info would help Thanks ray quinn e mail address [email protected] Thanks again

[Bus429]

Good news. Managed to find a company who can rebuild the seatbelts and issue a 8130-3 at a very good price.

8130-3 with EASA release if fitted to CAT aircraft? :ok:

[NutLoose]

The companies I posted do this, after all they are the manufacturer, I have used them for years to reweb belts as they come in under 1/2 the new price.

It's like engine hoses, tell me you do not buy those from the likes of the then CSE etc..... I used to buy them at a fraction of that price.

[Bus429]

Sorry, nutloose, I should not have been flippant. When auditing, I often come across buyers, Stores and certifying staff who are not aware of this (MIP-G) requirement when procuring for commercial operators and/or 145 AMOs. This has resulted in groundings or quarantine of expensive stock.
There is a bit more alleviation under Subpart F for parts for non-large, non-commercial aircraft.

[NutLoose]

Oops I didn't realise you were being :) I was replying to the post before yours :\

[aquamon]

Cessna? NutLoose, I know what you mean. The IA-232 on a Caravan for example, is well over $1,000.00 from Cessna I can get it for $199 and that's the LATEST Rev.! 8130 included may I add... Do a re-web.

[jxk]

Just as a thought, what would a company have to do to be able re-web a seatbelt and issue a part 21 or equivalent? For a welder to obtain approval they have to submit samples to test-house, perhaps a seatbelt fixer needs to submit to samples to a EASA knitting circle!

[Bus429]

You could not issue a Part 21 Form 1 for a re-webbed seatbelt; that would be classified as maintenance, even if it restores a product. Re-webbing would be a Part 145 activity.

[NutLoose]

yep, that is why I was sending mine made by this company to them, AMsafe are similar too


Pacific Scientific (http://www.pacscieurope.com/index.asp?page=quality)


Located in Maidenhead, UK and Kassel, Germany the facilities are staffed with experienced technicians fully trained on all aspects of repair and overhaul of aircraft Fire Extinguishers, Pressure Vessels, Oxygen Bottles, Crew Oxygen Masks and Crew Seat Restraints. Pacific Scientific holds the relevant approvals from the regulatory authorities in order to undertake this work.

[jxk]

Can I reiterate my question? What would (say) an upholster have to do to prove he could replace webbing and issue a release cert.

Supplementary question: If you have your aircraft reupholstered do you require a minor mod or some sort of approval as this would not be original equipment.

[ACX]

jxk

There is two ways in which the belts could be reupholstered legally for an EASA aircraft.

1. They could be re-webbed by an appropriately approved Part 145 facility, using a C (component overhaul) rating. This is providing that they the approved data to do the work, i.e. the manufacturers repair /overhaul manual. Note: Pacific Scientific have such a manual, but it is approved only for use by their service centres, no others.

2. The work is carried out to an EASA approved minor change (modification) by a Part 145 using the fabrication of parts route or the C rating route. The change approval reference must be quoted and if the belt has an original TSO tag installed, the TSO approval must be scrubbed through as this is invalidated when another organisations change is made to it.

I can personally vouch for Pacific Scientific, having been involved with there UK and German operations in the past.

Hope this helps
ACX

[jxk]

ACX thanks for the information.

BUT this doesn't answer my question - what would I have to do to become approved to change the webbing on a seatbelt? Surely, it wouldn't be necessary to be a part 145 organisation, but if it is then what kind of process would it require?. I know that approved welders just have to submit test pieces to a test-house but as far as I know they don't have to be a part 145 organisation to do welding work.

I'll try and pose my question to the CAA - see what they say.

[Bus429]

JXK - see your PM
Bus

[140KIAS]

Im in the situation of having to replace the belts on our 182rg.

I have details of organisation who can reweb from Papa Oscar - many thanks.

Maintenance organisation state that we must be replacement. Refurbishment/overhaul not permitted. Therefore rewebbing is not acceptable.

The page below is reproduced from an earlier post from Granite Flyer which would support their position that the belts must be replaced.

Does anyone have experience of rewebbing Cessna belts where the maintenance manual states they must be replaced ?

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/GraniteCityFlyer/2-25.jpg

[Granite City Flyer]

If you have them "rewebbed", what actually happens is you send your old belts away, they refurb the metal parts as required, re web (in your choice of colour) and they come back with an 8130 (equiv. to a form 1). So for the paper trail its looks like you've fitted new belts.

I had a set done for a 150 Aerobat (hugely expensive & difficult to obtain from Cessna), cost about £800. I used APS at Lasham (they send them somewhere in the US), door-to-door was about 14 days. Very good quality. (Aeroplane in Perth if you want to check them out).

When I did my Rocket, I put BAS belts (4 point inertia) in the front. There is no calendar life on these belts, and they are very good.
B.A.S., Inc. - Aircraft Safety Equipment and Accessories (http://www.basinc-aeromod.com/)
There is an AAN to cover most installs, PM if quote required for supply and fitting (in North East Jockistan).

For the rear belts I used a Cessna service kit that added the previously missing shoulder belts. The cost of the all in kit is much less than buying the individual elements, and worked out cheaper than a reweb.

[NutLoose]

Just had a look for you in the R182 and TR182 manual and it is the same, overhaul no, to be replaced every ten years.

I looked into it ages ago and I believe the Makers give no such life, rumour was the CAA/EASA were looking at going back to the on condition state on this, as said earlier the Cessna 152 and 150 have the same belts, one is on condition and the other is lifed, simply because the belts were missed out of one of the manuals.....

If an aircraft is used for 1000 hours a year then over 10 years you can see it, if its used for 50 and is hangared then the other way is sensible, again this used to be down to the engineers judgement and the system now just sucks, we even used to proof load test them.

Back to your's, read this, if you can ask the manufacturer of the belt if they have a life on them, then para 4 may help you, you might be able to go by the original manufacturers life and not Cessna's

see
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AIRCOM200918.pdf

The belt won't be made by Cessna, look on the back of the lap buckles, it will normally have the makers name on it, Pacific and Amsafe both have repair facilities in the UK, of which I have listed in posts above. Again it is down to your maintenance facility if they are happy with this and you may find they will want to clarify it with their Surveyor.

[toolboxstickers]

Quote from Cessna MM page scanned by 140KIAS:-
Replacement- Item must be replaced with a.......serviceable item that.......has been rebuilt as defined in FAR 43.2.
Therefore I would definitely argue that rewebbed/overhauled belts are perfectly acceptable as a "replacement".

[johns7022]

24 Years of flying Cessnas, never had a guy flag 'your seatbelts are out of date'....did have some guys try to pull the 'your seatbelts are rated for 1500lbs not the required 2500 lbs' or my favorite...'we can't find the load rating on your seatbelts, thus can't verify the poundage, so we will have to replace them'

This all translates into some very, very bored mechanics trying to make a buck, when more pressing items can't be found.

[toolboxstickers]

Further to my previous post here`s the relevant para from FAR 43.2:

(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

So I think the No in the overhaul column is from the Cessna Legal Liability Avoidance Department!

[Malcom]

I'm told these Cessna belts dont have to be replaced now.

Its only stuff in the Airworthiness Limitations part of the Maintenance Manual or TCDS that you are obliged to comply with eg. spar life or engine mount life.
:ugh:

[NutLoose]

Would love to see that in writing and there is the crux of the matter, it isn't.

[robin]

Wasn't there something in the press a few months back where the German equivalent of the CAA raised an exemption from the seatbelt replacement nonsense.

How different from our own dear CAA

[Malcom]

http://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/storage/gamag/oct09/p5-20.pdf

Nutloose - this seems to be as official as it gets FFS!:ugh:

[OttoB200]

no... we have had a life limit for any seatbelts of 12 years (national requirement of our NAA (LBA))

This life-limit is now canceled and we have to look for what the manufacturer tells us about the restraint.system.

But anyways... there are a few german Part-145 companies that have done an overhaul (or re-webbing) of our seat-belts. BUT... they have done it in absence of the manufacturers CMM (because they were not approved by AMsafe, Pacific Scientific or whoever was the OEM of these seat belts).

Now we have another problem: Just look for EASA SIB 2010-15

Of course this is only informational, but EASA informs us that all these re-webbed seatbelts are considered as "unairworthy"

so... please tell me what to do...

[NutLoose]

You could get them rewebbed, what make are they? AMsafe, Pacific Scientific do have the facility to do them in house in the UK....... Possibly you have them in Germany too, they hold their own approvals under 145. you may find they can inspect them and recertify them for you.....

[NutLoose]

Malcom, isn't it stupid they cannot simply issue a statement or send out a letter, and they wonder why no one has any faith in the CAA any more....:ugh:

[papa oscar]

There are companies in the USA that can 'Rebuild' the seatbelts and issue an 8130-3. This includes re-webbing, and inspecting - replacing as necessary (IRAN).
I've had mine done and so are a number of other folk who have contacted me.

As long as the belts have their TSO tags, there isn't a problem.
As per the Cessna Manual, rebuilt seatbelts are allowed to be refitted.

[Malcom]

Yeahbut, that would mean admitting they got it wrong at the outset knowing full well the regulations were still evolving,and panic set in when a few MOs who also jumped the gun with Part M started bleating.

Clarity from the CAA?
Any statements issued by the CAA are wrapped up in so much gobbledygook and spin, coupled with so much mis-information spread by their staff (and a worrying apparant lack of knowledge after a few recent phone calls on various matters) that they are clearly having troubles of their own. Blatant back-pedalling isnt an option, sweeping under carpets is.

I raise your:ugh: with a :ugh::ugh:

[NutLoose]

http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iaopa.eu%2FmediaServlet%2Fstorage%2Fgam ag%2Foct09%2Fp5-20.pdf&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fengineers-technicians%2F365092-replacing-cessna-seatbelts-ga-3.html


Its all indicitive of the way the CAA are these days Malcom.........poor, to find out what the head of policies and standards thought on the matter by having to read someones magazine is piss poor..... Indeed it is an aspect that is not viewed by all of the surveyors as legitimate I believe....

They seem to have little, no guidance or little idea as to what they are doing and it varies from one to another, so you get one company playing from a different rule book to the next, a lot of the staffing are no longer engineers but simply university fodder that simply do not have a clue......

When the first Engineering licencing guide was released I was dismayed to see under examples to qualify for twin piston pressurised metal aircraft they had listed as the examples. the Cessna 441 ( Conquest 2 Turboprop) and also the Cessna 500 ( Citation Jet ) :mad:

When companies listed their types for part M approvals some were made to list such as Cessna 152, 172, 182, 210 etc where other ( different surveyors no doubt) were allowed to simply add Cessna piston single..

I was then totally dismayed at the farce of it all when I saw one company had been succesfull in having Cirrus twins on their approved listing.......... I do hope someone tells Cirrus about this imaginary aircraft.. at that point I felt like applying to put Hans Solos Millenium Falcon on our approval.. If they could have fictitious types, why can't I :p

[rotormatic]

The 10 year replacement interval for the "restraint assembly" is only for the newer Cessna's that have airbags in the shoulder harness. This replacement interval is not applicable to older Cessna's that have seat belts.... They should be maintained "on condition".

[papa oscar]

The 10 year replacement interval for the "restraint assembly" is only for the newer Cessna's that have airbags in the shoulder harness. This replacement interval is not applicable to older Cessna's that have seat belts.... They should be maintained "on condition".

I suggest you go and read the maintenance manual again. It clearly states that seatbelts are to replaced with a new or rebuilt serviceable item every 10 years.
The aircraft such as my C177 never had airbags in the seatbelts, nor was it ever an option.

[OttoB200]

correct,

you should look for the temporary revisions of the applicable maintenance manuals of your aircraft.

for example:

Cessna P210N - TR 6 dated 7th October 2002 states that restraint assy pilot, copilot and passenger seat is to be replaced every 10 yeras. As well Cessna tells you that an OVH is not allowed.

Remark: These Temporary Revisions are NOT incorporated into the Service Manuals of any aircraft - You have to look on your own where to find these Revisions.
By the way... i´m still using ATP-Microfiches with update service.

One more thing:

Cessna tells us to replace all vacuum system hoses and pitot static system hoses as well every 10 years. According to Cessna PTFE engine hoses are to be replaced every 10 years as well.
All these items are "new" to these aircraft.

[Malcom]

But they are not airworthiness limitations so are not mandatory, just need to be assessed as part of your customised maintenance program.

From the IAOPA thing earlier: ""Jim McKenna, Head of Policy and Standards, was very clear that such manufacturer’s stipulations had no legal enforceability, and the situation could be avoided by simply agreeing with the maintainer an appropriate approved amendment of the LAMP"".

On condition for me.


EDIT: This is of course only in the UK section of EASAs level playing field!

[OttoB200]

true as well, BUT...

just need to be assessed as part of your customised maintenance program

it will not be assessed in the maintenance program if someone tells you that only new cessnas are affected.

[Malcom]

They will not be assessed only if that someone is Mr Cessna.:)

[latajacyholender]

2.5 years later... where do we stand?

Our 2003 C172 is coming up on 10 years and our mechanic tells us we have to do sth about those seatbelts. the quote we got if we do it through UK is close to 3000 USD!! and not much better from Germany.
I got a quote from Cessna dealer in Florida and brand new(all 4 seats) would be around 1700 usd but that doesn't include tax nor customs nor shipping to EU.
Is there any rule that finally allows common sense to take effect and not replace perfect looking seat belts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[NutLoose]

The new servicing schedule we were due to get in the UK was cancelled as they are looking into the whole thing I believe to bring out a more sensible less stringent programme, as they realise it is killing the lighter side of the industry, and without that it has a knock on effect for airlines.

As for now, I have had belts rebuilt, but not at work until the end ofnext week

For now best I can say is read page 4

http://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/storage/gamag/oct09/p5-20.pdf

[jxk]

@Nutloose
That PDF doesn't seem to have a page 4 and the article is dated in 2009.
It's still my understanding that the seatbelts need replacing every 10 years as it's in the Maintenance Manual.
Whether a Part M could come up with and get approved a programme amending the seatbelt replacement requirement would be interesting. But then they would probably take the legal consequences should a failure happen.

[smarthawke]

NutLoose

Re your note about the 'twin engine Cirrus' comment a few posts (and years) back. I saw the same thing when going through the Part-M Subpart F/G(I) saga.

At the time we were told we could only have on our approval, types for which we held current airworthiness data. I therefore requested (in writing) that we put Captain Scarlet's Angel Interceptors on our approval as I was sure there was more maintenance data available than for a Cirrus twin....

My understanding on the Cessna seat belt issue (comes up every CAA engineering seminar) was that if you could justify not doing them to the authority with a sound reason then that would be acceptable. A 10 year old privately owned, hangared, aircraft is unlikely to have belts suffering the same as a club hack that lives out doors in the sun and rain.

As you say, jxk, what a judge would say if there was ever a fatal involving insurance/compensation claims it would be a difficult case - especially for the engineer/organisation involved.

I do believe that there is a company in Scandanavia who can re-web Cessna seat belts and issue an EASA Form One for the work.

[A and C]

Amsafe in the UK have the approval to overhaul the Cessna seatbelts but won't do them, it would seem that they have a deal to supply only new seatbelts to Cessna.

I think that this is called a Monopoly and is illegal in both the UK & USA but to bring it to court it would cost a whole lot more than you would save on a few seatbelts.

[cockney steve]

Re- A&C's post above,- IF the company concerned is withholding services which it is licensed to perform (or making the supply of those services prohibitively expensive for the customer, )then one could argue that not only are they in a monopoly position* BUT they are abusing it with the knowledge and collusion of the license -issuing authority.

Unless the CAA are aware, they can't to anything about it.....surely it's time for a Cessna Owners' group to inform them and put a few bob in the hat to rattle their cage.

From my experience of Public Service Mandarins, they'll look for an easy way out....confrontation and adverse publicity would affect their carreer prospects.

The National Press could surely pick up a story on this legalised robbery and unjustified ecologically unsound destruction of perfectly serviceable equipment.

* I appreciate that in SOME esoteric fields, there is simply not enough business for more than one commercial undertaking, but if their profiteering becomes excessive, a competitor becomes viable,-UNTIL the original monopoly "reviews" it's costs and undercuts the competitor.

Unfortunately, I've seen it happen several times in the Motor-Trade.

[NutLoose]

More bad news, see

http://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/easa_ad_2013_0020_R1.pdf/AD_2013-0020R1_2

[Aboveitall]

Can you give me the name of the company that redoes seat belts.
Thanks

[NutLoose]

Fraid I can't in the USA, I believe rewebbing them there is not a problem.

As for the EASA AD, if this IS an airworthiness issue, then surely any belts rewebbed before EASA came into play should have been included, which they are not.

[aelkaim]

Hello,

I am the owner of a 2006 C182T, EASA reg'd
Next year I will have to change the seatbelts (AMSAFE) as they will reach 10 years
Quotation for new ones is a bit north of $4500

I am looking for rebuilding as far as possible.
I guess AMSAFE alone would be able to do that ?

Does anyone would have a contact with them (nothing on the website) ?

Finally, Papa Oscar, could you tell us who you dealt with ?

Regards

[onetrack]

Sounds to me like you blokes are being reamed mercilessly - and without lube as well.
We have a local company (Perth, Western Australia) that repairs seatbelts for every type of vehicle and aircraft ever made.
Their Vehicle seatbelt reconditioning meets all road and vehicle safety requirements and laws - and their aircraft seatbelt reconditioning arrangement is an approved CASA facility, that meets all Australian aviation laws and standards, and each repair or reconditioning comes with full traceability.
The reconditioning cost is nothing like the figures bandied around above. I have not had any aircraft seatbelts reconditioned, but I have had a truck seatbelt reconditioned by them recently. It took less than two hours, it cost AU$110, it came back looking like new, and it came complete with paperwork and certification for road vehicle use.

What's to stop you U.K. or European aircraft owners from sending your aircraft seatbelts to Western Australia to be reconditioned? Surely airworthiness certification for Cessna in Australia would meet airworthiness requirements in the U.K. and Europe??
What happens if I take an Australian VH-registered aircraft with locally-reconditioned seatbelts to the U.K. or Europe?
I'm sure it wouldn't immediately be declared un-airworthy, simply because the seatbelts were reconditioned overseas.

The cost of getting aircraft seatbelts reconditioned in Australia, even including allowing for freighting to Australia, would appear to be a fraction of the prices quoted above. Someone is having a very large rort in the above U.K. and European pricing.
We live in a global world today, and airlines regularly recondition and maintain their aircraft in far-flung locations, to keep their costs down. These arrangements seem to be able to be organised without any drama.

http://www.aircraftinteriors.com.au/main/page_aircraft_restraints.html

[NutLoose]

Hello,

I am the owner of a 2006 C182T, EASA reg'd
Next year I will have to change the seatbelts (AMSAFE) as they will reach 10 years
Quotation for new ones is a bit north of $4500

I am looking for rebuilding as far as possible.
I guess AMSAFE alone would be able to do that ?

Does anyone would have a contact with them (nothing on the website) ?

Finally, Papa Oscar, could you tell us who you dealt with ?


Regards

Amsafe in the UK should be able to reweb them and overhaul them as required, I have used them in the past, details here

AMSafe Aviation
Aviation Consultant
Unit V1 & V2 Forest Road, Feltham, Middlesex TW13 7EH
020 8754 2700

France's details are here for airbags at least, call them.

http://www.amsafe.com/products-services/general-aviation/find-a-service-center/europe/france/


.

[vector4fun]

FWIW, Alpha Aviation in U.S. sells replacement Cessna Belts and kits to replace the fixed shoulder straps with inertia reels. I've installed the IR kit in my 172 and prefer them much better than the original fixed straps, which forever dangle haphazardly from the retainers.

FOR OUR INTERNATIONAL CUSTOMERS: All of our belts are stocked with domestic 8130-3 Airworthiness Certificates. If this is acceptable to your aviation authority, we can ship from stock. If a location specific 8130-3 is required, please allow 4 weeks to shipment as we will need to be created at the same time as the belts. EASA; we do not have formal EASA approval. Our belts have been sold & installed all over Europe and the United Kingdom without issue.

About $400/seat plus shipping in US.

Alpha Aviation Inc. - Aircraft Belts - 3 Point Diagonal Shoulder Harness Restraints (http://www.alphaaviation.com/Belts.html)