easyjet

[Homer_J]

Hi,
I was just after you thoughts and opinions on the chances of a job with easyjet next year.

I'm currently a Captain on a Q400. I've got about another year of my bond left and was thinking of easyjet as a possible move. Projecting my hours forward to next march I'll have around 5500 or so. From what I hear the chances of a direct entry are slim to nil. So I'd be looking at a stint in the right hand seat.

My questions are.....

How long might I have to spend as an FO before command?
What are the chances of getting the base I want?

I'm asking about easyjet as the flying they do is about the same as what I do at the moment. ie sectors of around 1-2hrs. 2-4 rotations a day.

Thanks in advance

Homer J

[Ivor Fynn]

Homer J,

you could start by using some initiative and looking here;

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/300460-easyjet-holding-pool.html

Sorry to shatter your illusions!

Ivor:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Homer_J]

Yea, had a look on there, most of the posts seemed to be from a few years ago, and the last few pages were all about CTC cadets(I'm assuming low houred, but might be wrong) on temp contracts. Is that the general theme with easy, or is it any different for relativly experienced folk?

[Red Snake]

Your best bet is go to the easyJet website - they have a detailed recruitment section, but don't expect anything until the economy picks up. As for bases, you go where your are told & then join the bid queue for the base you want. There are a lot of SFOs waiting for command right now.

[The Flying Cokeman]

HomerJ,

You are right, being a prop captain only forces you to start as an FO.

When you apply it might take a long time before they let you go to the interview and assesments.
Then you will have to swim in the holding pool for a very long time with the others that have been waiting for more than a year.

If you are then offered a job then you have to wait a minimum of 6 months before you can apply for the upgrade process.
That's provided your 2 previous sims have been above standard in order to join the process.
If accepted for the upgrade process you then have to complete this which can take more than a year, as in the summertime the upgrade process is temporarily frozen.
If you pass then you have to join the pool for a command course which to my best knowledge consists of 150 people at the moment.
With 20 temporary commands for this summer and a command list that gets longer and longer for every day that goes by I predict a very very very LOOOONG time of waiting for you :uhoh:

[Homer_J]

All of a sudden my current job is looking rather good. might be staying here for a while.

thanks for the info

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

The Flying Cokeman - excellent and accurate view of the current situation. My only question is whether you have underestimated the 150 guys currently on the command list - I am given to understand it is considerably larger than that. Nonetheless, as you rightly say, whatever size the list is, it is growing every day.

Homer_J - As others have said, there is no possibility right now of a permanent job at easyJet as an FO. In the past we have taken DECs (I was one myself a few years ago), but barring a dramatic change in circumstances that would be verging on the miraculous, those days are gone. We have literally hundreds of top quality FOs now available for command courses, all of whom have thousands of jet hours - anyone joining now would therefore go to the back of a long and distinguished queue.

I am not sure if you were being serious about the possibility of going from a Q400 command to a DEC on a 737/Airbus. At no point in easyJet's history has there been DECs from turboprops, nor am I aware of any company in the UK who has ever offered that either. To go from the left seat of a turboprop and go straight into the left seat of an Airbus would be a recipe for disaster. That is not in any way to knock turboprop guys - I was one myself previously, and it was a fantastic start to my commercial flying career that I will always be grateful for. Nonetheless the jet world is a whole new deal, and it just takes time and experience to get comfortable with it. After being a turboprop captain, I was an FO for another 2 1/2 years on the Airbus before getting a command. In retrospect I am extremely grateful the chance for promotion did not come before then, as I would not have been able to do the opportunity justice.

I am not sure there is a single jet airline in the world right now where there is a quick command. That will no doubt all change, but if you have a stable job I would be hanging onto it rather than join the rat-race of summer jobs at easyJet. Although you have 5500 hours, from what you say none of it is jet time. You would need substantial jet experience to be considered for a command, but right now the limitation would not be that but the enormous group of people in front of you. If you wanted a figure, I would say that anyone joining today could wait 5 years' + to get a sniff of a command and even that might turn out to be very optimistic. Regarding bases, it is basically a case of initially taking an FO job where you are offered it. As soon as you join you can then put your name on the list for wherever you want to go. It is completely down to supply and demand when your slot comes up. For example, if you want to go to Gatwick you would get there in a few months, but if you want to go to East Midlands or Berlin you could wait several years. Once you get promoted the fun all begins again. You have to take the promotion where it is offered or it goes to the next guy. Once you are on the command list you have to apply to the base of your choice but you are now at the bottom of the transfer list - the fact you have been an FO there for years is no help whatsoever!

Best of luck!

[Iver]

Hey Homer, why not bid command on the E195 when you get the seniority? E195 looks like a nice ride too...

[Knee Trembler]

Hi all,

NSF, I regularly read your posts with interest and regard you as you are one of pprune's sensible, balanced contributors, so please don't take this as a personal attack. I merely want to take issue with your comments regarding turboprop commands.

I am personally in the middle of a Q400 conversion (not for Flybe) having moved from a command on the F100 and having earlier flown the 737 for Excel/XL. I can confidently say that anyone who can fly this rough diamond can equally well cope with a jet which is in almost all respects MUCH easier to operate.

Command qualities are common to all types and as the recession bites and as more operators look to save every last penny, the turbo prop looks likely to enjoy a renaissance.

Nevertheless, I accept that the traditional path has tended to be left seat turboprop to right seat jet and I accept that Homer J will find it difficult to circumvent this. Like so much in life, "it ain't right and it ain't fair".

KT

[seasexsun]

nor am I aware of any company in the UK who has ever offered that either. To go from the left seat of a turboprop and go straight into the left seat of an Airbus would be a recipe for disaster


That is a tremendous bulld****. I used to fly Turboprop, now on a big jet in a big passenger airline and I found the jet far easier thant the heavy turboprop I flew before.
As for airlines promoting DEC even from turboprop there is at least Cityjet (known as ****yjet :}) and Wizzair have tooken lots of ATR captain with no jet experience, straight on the left hand seat of a brand new airbus and so far there have been no accident nor incident report.

Finally, Hommer-J, with your flight hours and experience you'd better apply to Cargolux as an FO but you will be treated and paid much better than at easyjet.
easyjet=ryanair

Good luck.

SSS

[Cloud Bunny]

I am not sure there is a single jet airline in the world right now where there is a quick command.


Nah not true Ryanair will still put you on a Command Course 20 minutes after you've joined as a Cadet.

[kriskross]

I must agree with NSF, there is no chance of a direct entry to the left hand seat from a turboprop in easyJet, all ( so far ) have always had to do a little time RHS.

[kuwaitlocal]

British World.

ATP command to command on 757. ( Not myself by btw )

It's about ability and in some cases who your drink buddies are.

[sweetie76]

As for airlines promoting DEC even from turboprop there is at least Cityjet (known as ****yjet http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif) and Wizzair have tooken lots of ATR captain with no jet experience, straight on the left hand seat of a brand new airbus and so far there have been no accident nor incident report.

Not strictly true. Several of these ATR guys were employed by Wizzair as DECs and it was suggested afer a while that they would benefit from a period in the RHS. At least one actually requested that he did 6 months RHS before movng to LHS (very experienced etc but had the nouse to recognize it could be a tadge demanding to operate unfamiliar equipment in demanding environment). A few went left-to-left but had considerable jet time in the past. In any case, Hungarian law requires a very large number of LHS sectors with trainer.

This is not meant in any way to diminish skills and talents of ATR drivers. I agree, these types can be mored difficult.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Turbo-props and jets are different - period.

I have flown as FO and Captain of turbo props and as FO and soon to be Captain of a Jet.

One does not qualify you for the other.

Jets and swept wings require more attention in crappy weather than a turbo prop does, and for that reason, on stormy nights with strong crosswinds when I hit the stick off the stops on the electric jet that I pine for my old turboprop back!

Another thing about Jet flying is Energy management, and that is a skill that is best learnt from the RHS with a safety net beside you in the LHS, and the ability to hone that skill very much comes down to the individual, and even the most experienced guys still get it wrong from time to time:O

Ok, big deal, you Go around and try again, next thing about being on a jet is the alarming rate that a Go around and subsequent approach uses up your fuel, so careful energy management and fuel management are areas that a prop captain may use on his a/c but IMHO, having flown both, the Prop can get you out a spot easier than a Jet can.

Then there is the differences between Jets. Again I have flown both the bus and the 737 and they are very very different, the bus looks after you in lots of ways but it can still, and one day when your least expecting it, be flown as a conventional a/c and thats when experience on types like the 737 will serve you well, although rusty you will have seen it before.

Taking this argument up to the next level, I don't think two years in the LHS at EZY would qualify me for DEC LHS at the like of Virgin or BA LH. Bigger jets, more engines and of course long haul experience of which I would have none.

In summary I belive in the career ladder and the more rungs you visit on your way up, the more rounded Jet Captain you will make.

But to confirm what others have said any future recruitment of DEC's at EZY is a very very very long way off.

Best of luck, but I think if you have a LHS Q400 job at a base where you want to be and it seems secure, for now, if it were me I'd be staying put. Sometimes it can be hard to see how green the grass is on your present side of the fence!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I have not meant to start a storm here and maybe this will be my last post on this thread. ezydriver - I completely agree with your post. seasexsun - I would respectfully disagree with your perspective on this issue. The practices of Eastern European airlines are not necessarily those we should be seeking to emulate. We are wishing to use the very best possible practices and not the ones we can get away with most of the time. No one is saying every transition to a jet from a turboprop is impossible - what I am saying is that statistically you are significantly more open to a serious flight safety incident if you go from being a captain on a turboprop to a captain on a 737/Airbus. There will always be exceptions to that - but we are dealing with minimising overall risk and not increasing it. A turboprop to jet command in one hit is a massive increase in risk. That does not demean the abilities of pilots coming from the turboprop world (I am one!), but you are vulnerable to significant misjudgements due to the totally different characteristics of these aircraft.

I now train people from every background imaginable and I can tell you that by far and away the best command candidates we have at easyJet are FO's promoted from within with substantial time on type. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to see that - it is just plain common sense that someone who has gained experience in the right seat under the guidance of more experienced pilots will be much better prepared for the challenges of command than someone who is brand new to jets and to the company.

Another poster has alluded to problems at Wizzair - if you put turboprop captains straight into the command of an A320 you are asking for trouble. That does not mean these guys are bad pilots - it does mean they are inexperienced and as such are more likely to make errors. I have now flown thousands of hours on Airbuses and feel comfortable in that role - that does not make me good but it does make me experienced and all the benefits that brings . If I were to now go long haul and be given a command on a 747, I could learn to fly it I am sure. That is not the issue thought. What I would not be is experienced, and therefore I would not be best placed to fulfil the duties of my role. I would want considerable time as an apprentice in the RHS learning from someone who has been there, seen it, done it. That is how you produce the best quality captains. I am not getting into argument here about which is more difficult to fly - you can argue all day about turboprop or jets being more or less demanding. What I am saying is that these are very different animals indeed, and experience is absolutely critical to producing a safe operation. That experience is best obtained in the RHS.

[Seymour Skinner]

when I hit the stick off the stops on the electric jet that I pine for my old turboprop back

A bit off topic but you shouldn't be "hitting the stick off the stops" in rough weather on the Airbus. If you find yourself doing this you should just take your hand off it for a few seconds and let it do what it does best. You should know this if you're about to get your command on it...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cutting to the chase, there's a hell of a lot of brilliant SFO's gagging for a command in easyJet so if you're lucky enough to be called for interview you'll have to be grateful for a seat on the Right.

This is unlikely to change. The world has.


WWW

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Picking up a dropped wing on the bus has, and will have many pilots hitting the roll stops, all be it momentarily. I believe what you are refferring to is PIO, in which case you should take your hand off, let it settle and start again. What you should NEVER do of course is dance on the rudder.

[beachbumflyer]

NSF,
What about all the guys in the US that went from the left seat of a
turboprop to the left seat of a regional jet.
And what's with East Midlands and Berlin tha a lot of guys want to
go there?

[seventhreedriver]

Passing a linecheck as an FO is one thing, passing as a PIC is another... How can you make right decisions when you are not even familiar with the airplane and its perf limitations.

[CarbHeatIn]

Has/Is Aer Lingus not taken/taking DECs for BFS/LGW without Jet time?

[seasexsun]

According to ICAO and JAA with an atpl licence and 1500 hours including Jar/far 25 (jet or Turboprop) you can be a commander of an A380, a350, a340, a330, a320, a310, a300, b747,b767, md11, etc, etc, etc....
If it was unsafe, they would change the rule!!


The Captains I flew with in the TP world had a blatant disregard for the MEL, FTLs, the QRH, aircraft limitations, the Ops Manual....the list goes on.......



Can you explain a bit more, because I don't see the relationship :confused:

[TurboJ]

SSS - Check your PMs

[The Flying Cokeman]

Seasexsun,


Possible but NOT probable.
They don't need to change the requirements as no one gets a command on longhaul airliner with 1500 hrs total time anyway. Minimum requirements in jet airliner companies are much higher than that.

Why? You gotta learn how to crawl before you can walk.

Show me the airlines that give you a command with 1500 hrs on a Airbus 380 or similar!?

In good times with rapid expanding airlines I'm sure the airlines would use this opportunity to promote people to capt. when reaching minimum requirement.

Why don't EZY, RYR or Emirates or other similar airlines do early promotions with 1500 hrs in order to meet their demand for new capts? I mean if the JAA requirement is 1500 hrs it got to be safe as you claim it? :=

[seasexsun]

don't ask me that, ask ICAO and JAA directors, they must be more able than you and me to answer to this question .

[PENKO]

SSS, are you just trying to make a point? There is not one FO in any easyJet-type airline with 1500 hours who considers him/herself ready to run the show. They more than happy with the payrise and the third stripe that come with the ATPL.

[Right Way Up]

or an unexperienced captain ( FO A319)

Shows how much you have learnt Clara. Do you think that F/Os in a mature professional company are hidden away from the operation. All our F/Os are Captains in training from the first day they walk onto the flightdeck. I could give you a long list of F/Os at Easy who will make fine commanders when their time comes.

6 months in the RHS for a TP Captain would be about right before attempting a command course depending on ability.

[seasexsun]

They more than happy with the payrise and the third stripe that come with the ATPL.


oh MY GOOOOOOOD! the THIRD stripe!!! This is so important :ok::}:}
That's only in england you see those stupid things. in other countries we start with 3 we finish with 4 but, we don't care anyway, the most important is salary and conditions, and in Ryanair and Easyjet there is a lot to improve...

[PENKO]

Uuhhh..it is you who is going on and on about commands at 1500 hours. So get your command on an A380 if you can. We won't stop ya!

[Elephant and Castle]

JAA and ICAO give the MINIMUS that operators can apply. As with your drivers licence you may be legaly entlitled to drive a Bugatti Veyron at 17 but good luck finding a company to insure you. No airline insurance will allow a 1500 hour captain on a large passenger jet and for a good reason.

When you have 40 hours and pass your PPL you think you start to know what flying is about but when you have 100 hours you realize that you knew nothing however now you begin to know what flying is about. This process is repeated at 500, 1000, 2000, etc, etc etc If you have not realized this yet then you are even further behind than you think.

[TurboJ]

the most important is salary and conditions, and in Ryanair and Easyjet there is a lot to improve...

Do you care to expand what Easyjet can improve on, compared to other airlines in the current environment?

No company is perfect - however, they are not laying pilots off or making pay cuts?

...and the third stripe is important - its worth £10k a year

TJ

[The Flying Cokeman]

seasexsun,

3 stripes belong to England only :confused: Not quite, if you look at most national/legacy carriers in the world you will see they start off with 1 or 2 stripes. Even in your beloved Cargolux you start off with 2 stripes ! The great company that gives you an amazing 1% pension and can take your days off away from you as it suits them and with no notice. So much for good T&C :mad: I happen to know several people from there who left for other airlines including lowcost companies!

Maybe it's time for you to look beyond your Canary islands commuter airliner world as you seem to know very little about bigger jet airlines, especially about RYR and EZY :ugh:

[seasexsun]

In every spanish, french, italian, portugese airlines you start with 3 stripes. I have never had 2 stripes, only 3, but to be honnest I really don't care.
as for the rest, I will inform you about something you seem to ignore, in PM.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I would like to apologise for unwittingly hijacking this thread - I genuinely did not intend to do so. Nonetheless, an interesting discussion has ensued that is actually quite valuable. With the notable exception of seasexsun, a 'sense of the meeting' has developed as the Quakers would say!

There are clearly variations in the different learning rates and natural talent levels of different pilots. From what I read seasexsun is blessed with an unusual level of ability and skill that I, alas, never possessed. Consequently flying a swept-wing jet is easy and requires little or no past experience to do it safely and well. Indeed, having read his comments I am surprised our managers are not scouring the Job Centres of Europe as we speak, in search of likely lads to fly them at greatly reduced rates. Nonetheless, for the rest of us more limited pilots who do feel the need for experience to improve our skill base, doing the job for a considerable period of time has brought clear benefits.

It seems to me that, despite many aspects of our lives in Western Europe being wrong, there are some things we are doing well at. One of those is aviation and it is good occasionally to reflect on why our accident rate is heading in the right direction. Should we sit back and congratulate ourselves? Absolutely not! Nonetheless we should recognise that the way we do aviation is usually very professional, and a number of the practices we adopt are worth reflecting on by other sections of the wider aviation community. One of those practices is ensuring that our pilots are well-trained and have the necessary skills AND experience to carry out the duties they are asked to perform. I personally like the idea of the Captain at the front of the aircraft I am flying in having substantial experience in the role he is undertakeing - one or two people here do not seem quite as fussy. It appears to have paid significant dividends to numerous highly-respected companies. The fact that other countries outside our sphere of influence do not emulate these practices is their loss - and we should not be embarrassed to say that.

Most sensible people on this forum seem to be agreeing that it is of overall benefit to aviation to ensure that Captains on jets have flown them previously as First Officers -and it is difficult to see any other credible view. Once again, my sincere apologies to the original contributor here who was asking an altogether different question.

[EAM]

In every spanish, french, italian, portugese airlines you start with 3 stripes.

Bull****, sorry, but in Italy in every company you start with 1 or 2 stripes, some dont even give you 3 stripes, you go from 2 to 4.
In france you get 2 stripes and the same for spain and other countries.
The only country I know so far were you have only 3 and 4 stripes is germany.
Only FA and Pursers get 1 or 2 stripes there. :)

[Knee Trembler]

NSF,

On two points I agree. Firstly, we have hijacked the thread. Secondly it is of great benefit to have flown an aircraft from the right seat before moving to the left. However, I believe this has much more to do with assimilating the company culture and seeing the routes and procedures rather than acquiring any form of black art.

I want to again take issue your with your initial answer to Homer J and the suggestion that turbo prop captains moving from to jets would be a "recipe for disaster". I think you would have to admit that this is a somewhat condescending and factually incorrect statement.

My fllying career started in the mid nineties with Air UK. At that time the company was in the process of changing it's career structure from:

FO-Turboprop, FO-jet, Cpt-TP, Cpt-Jet

to

FO-TP, FO-Jet, Cpt-Jet

Consequently, there was a need for captains on the TP which was covered partly by promotions from the fleet and partly by DECs. The last of these made the "disastrous" move from Cpt-TP to Cpt-Jet within KLM in the last few years.

Now, I am working for a Lufthansa partner which traditionally flew turboprops and is now re-equiping with jets. And, guess what, they have taken the "disastrous" step of training the turboprop captains, all of whom, like Homer J have several thousand hours of Q400, to fly the jet equipment. Does anyone seriously expect that the former fleet manager be demoted and fly six months in the right seat!!! And if so, who is he supposed to fly with?

Those are two examples. There are plenty of others. I think it would be good to reflect that there was a flying industry before Easy/Ryan and there continues to be one outside the UK. If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative. But it is a somewhat insular view to say the least.

After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.

KT

[Knee Trembler]

Are you a better pilot just because you are part of management.

I take it you don't work in the aviation industry.

KT

[TurboJ]

If you want to believe that only Easyjet know how to fly, that's your prerogative.

No, thats BA :cool:

After all it's worth reflecting that a few years ago, the thought of anyone going straight from flying school to a 737 was distant dream. Now, it is considered the standard route.


No, its the standard route for a small percentage of people who have the means and to a degree, luck, to be able to go down this route. Personally, I've clawed my way up to the right hand seat of a big jet at great expense to my wallet and personal life. :D

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Knee Trembler - The problem of a discussion that has developped here is that every Alpha Male on the planet feels insulted and has to justify his own place and experience. It is therefore almost impossible to have a rational discussion on this issue whithout it turning into a rather pathetic slanging match. I will, however, try to answer as best I can.

I do not agree with you that my remarks are condescending - if you have taken offence then that is your issue rather than mine. Just to define my terms - by 'jet' I mean specifically a medium jet and above - ie 737/A320-series type aircraft or larger. I do not include small jets like Embraers etc as the same problems arise. Also, I would ask you not to put words in my mouth. At no point did I say or imply that easyJet and Ryanair were the only companies who know how to fly - I do not mind you disagreeing with what I said, but I do not appreciate being berated for some offence that only took place in your own mind. I totally agree, however, that company culture plus knowledge of routes and procedures are key factors. Those factors are, however, inextricably linked with coming onto jet operations and form part of my argument - you tend to go further afield, thus bringing a whole host of new problems that require experience to handle correctly. My point is just that - jet handling is different, as is just about every aspect of the operation that turboprop pilots have left behind. The last thing a pilot needs when every single part of his professional life has changed is the burden of command, which he is ill-equipped to handle at that stage. I stand by my view, therefore that to go from being a captain on a turboprop to a medium jet is a recipe for disaster. I could give countless specific examples to back my view, but that would not be appropriate here. If experience in role was not required you could go down the Job Centre and train up people for a fraction of the price. That does not mean that every ex-turboprop captain would make a terrible captain on a jet. It means they need the appropriate experience on jets, prior to becoming captains in order that they have that vital mix of knowledge, skill and experience. It also means recognising that an enormous amount has still be to learnt that can never be fully picked up on line training. As has rightly been pointed-out, some turboprop captains would do well - for what it is worth I would not have been one of them, even though I was foolish enough at the time to think I would. What undoubtedly is true, however, is that you are significantly increasing the risk of something going wrong. As we all know, there is an element of luck here - it does rather depend on the particular situation you come up against. If experience did not matter then ours would be a simple job that any fool could do. Experience is absolutely critical in any flying job and that is best obtained in the RHS under the ultimate command of someone who has trodden the exact same path before you.

I remember when I was a turboprop Training Captain awaiting my first jet job. I bumped into an ex-Britannia 767 captain who was over 60 and seeing out his time on turboprops - a common practice then. He said something I will never forget. He said that I should not be in a rush to get a jet command as although some people have done so in short order, they were 'vulnerable' to making a big error. That has been my personal experience and my observation of other people has endorsed that view. Being the Captain of a jet aircraft is a demanding job that carries enormous responsibility - it requires a combination of knowledge, skill and experience. If any one of those 3 elements is missing then problems will ensue. Sure, it depends on what the individual captain faces on the day, but by diluting experience you are opening the door to trouble. 'Vulnerability' is the key - one of the key ways of reducing vulnerability is to have experience.

As a little aside, if you join NetJets with 10,000 hours including command on Boeings and Airbuses - where will you go? Guess what - the RHS. Why is that? It is because the whole nature of the operation is so different to anything that has gone before, it is deemed safer by people who have been at that line of work a long time to get experience in the RHS. Is that grounds for the ex-747 captain to take offence - absolutely not! It is grounds for the ex-747 captain to rejoice that his new company have seen fit to ensure that he is adequately prepared to take-on the responsibities his new role will demand when he eventually becomes a Captain again.

[Wellington Bomber]

Knee Trembler

I think it is all about money.

I reckon the TP Fleet manager and other TP captains in the said company would be quite happy sat in the right hand seat of a jet as long as they are paid on the captains pay scale. All to get experience as NSF says.

But I also believe that Jet Captains or FO's who come the other way down to TP's think that they are superior to TP guys with experience on type, which is wrong, unless of course they have gone up from TP to jet and back down again

[captplaystation]

NSF, I think you have hit the nail on the head, and anyone taking offence has the proverbial french fry on the shoulder. :rolleyes:
The net-jets example is the clue here folks, it may be smaller /slower or whatever, but what matters is . . . . . it is a different set of circumstances to wot you is used to guv :=

[seasexsun]

Bull****, sorry, but in Italy in every company you start with 1 or 2 stripes, some dont even give you 3 stripes, you go from 2 to 4.
In france you get 2 stripes and the same for spain and other countries.
The only country I know so far were you have only 3 and 4 stripes is germany.
Only FA and Pursers get 1 or 2 stripes there. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif


once again this is not important,2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, thousands of stripes, who cares?
I am spanish, I know what I am talking about. In spain there are 3 stripes and 4 stripes, in every companies. Fulstop.

I have a friend in CCM airlines, and 2 in transavia france, all of them told me in every french airlines, you start with 3 stripes and 4 once promoted captain.



...and the third stripe is important - its worth £10k a year


this is the :mad: english style to make the company saving £10k a year on the new FO. In other words, this is not a pay increase, this is a worse pay in the biggining and normal pay afterwards, for the same job... We don't have that in latin countries :cool::ok:

[one post only!]

For someone who really doesn't care about the number of stripes we all wear you don't half keep banging on about it!

[seasexsun]

I just care about the accuracy of what I am writting, and also, what I am reading.;)

end of story.

[Knee Trembler]

NSF,

I certainly hope that by taking an alternative view to you, I am not automatically engaging in a 'slanging match'. As I was at pains to point out, I respect your experience and right to put forward an opinion. I simply expect the same of you in return.

The example I was citing relates to the move from Q400, to the Emb 195. The latter has a MTOW of a fraction under 50t and whilst I am sure someone will feel the need to point out that this is less than a 319 I don't feel the difference is significant enough to dismiss as a 'small jet'.

I also take absolutely no offence at your comments (the same cannot necessarily be said of the former colleagues at Air Berlin, some of whom also moved from TPs to 738 / A320). Anyone who knows me will also confirm that I am in no way an Alpha Male and have personally little to prove.

For the little that it is worth, I had the choice of taking an unstable job as captain on a 737-700 or a more secure job on the Q400. I opted for the latter and now enjoy a relatively secure job (the most important thing of all, upon which I hope we all agree) with Ts&Cs that most pilots would kill for (albeit at the cost of some salary).

Again, as anyone who knows me will confirm, I am the archetypal average pilot. I found the 738 neither easy nor difficult to fly in comparrison to the F100 of which I have considerable experience. The Q400, on the other hand, with its absence of auto-thrust, lower (i.e. more ice prone) cruising levels and diabolical master caution panel (setting the park brake triggers a caution warning!) demands a level of flying ability I was last required to demonstrate on the Fokker 27!

I think we have both made our point, so let's agree to differ and perhaps pursue this over a beer should we ever meet:).

KT

[seasexsun]

KT, excellent post, nothing to add :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok::ok:

I am also an ex TP pilot, now on a jet, and I reckon that TP makes you more busy at take off and landing, and in cruse where you are always in icing conditions, which is not the case above FL250.
I love both planes.

[PENKO]

Sea, sex, sun, why are you swearing so much?

[seasexsun]

:confused:

Anyway, if they ask you, just tell them you don't know :)

[rhythm method]

Latin temperament! :}

[JPHIL68]

Whitout strips i can fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but easy gave us a new strip......in the a...:D:D:D:Dt

Holdingpool .....RIP:(:(:(:(

[captplaystation]

Knee Trembler,
I am with NSF on this one . . . . . but , I can also tell you that if I had to give up a shiny 737 for some ratty ol F27 (hell even a shiny new ATR/Dash ) I would probably feel damn uncomfortable with the LACK of surplus performance/ability to avoid icing etc. So, as per the netjets philosophy it is the difference that makes the difference.
I have seen guys come off LHS TP onto LHS 737 and survive, equally I have seen a few more that all too evidently did not have a lot of spare capacity for the first 6months or so.
And that, is not IMHO a good thing.

[Knee Trembler]

Capt P

So, as per the netjets philosophy it is the difference that makes the difference.

I thoroughly agree with you. Indeed I understabnd Ryan now expect all non-rated captains to complete a season in the right seat, and as I say I would be the last to take issue with this.

Nevertheless, the question I would pose to NSF and yourself, is whether according to the same logic, you would expect to fly six months in the right seat if forced to take a TP job?

The question is not academic. At my sim test for Flybe, three of the four candidates were medium jet captains. The recession is forcing many people to take jobs that traditionally appear 'beneath' them and, as I have previously said, I was surprised at how difficult the transition in the opposite direction has been.

I guess it was the whiff of superiority in NSF's original post (not yours) that I found objectionable. I can certainly live with your quote that the "difference makes the difference".

KT

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Knee Trembler - the 'tone of superiority' you refer to was never intended. Nonetheless, I stand by my view that, taken as a whole, being a captain on a medium jet (andl larger) is significantly more involved that that of a turboprop. I have done both and am in a position to make that judgement. Unfortunately, it has proven virtually impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject due to offence being taken at some imagined slight. Talk of the need for experience to do the job properly has been incorrectly taken as a suggestion that turboprop captains are less talented than jet captains. That is never what was said.

I completely agreee with catplaystation that were I to swap my fancy Airbus for an F27, it would give me much to consider. I once used to fly a Herald with Channel Express - in a 6-month period I had 3 engine fires! As a low-houred First Officer I got to do a genuine single-engine landing. All of that is virtually unthinkable for today's 200-hour cadet on an Airbus/737. First of all, it is highly unlikely he will get a real engine failure and secondly if he did the Captain would do the landing. Any F27 pilot will tell you the nightmare of trying to handle an EFATO in the Maastricht sim - a jet is much easier to handle single-engine and has so much more power available. However, a turboprop is slower, less complex overall, does not travel as far afield and operates at much lower levels. Also, you have to really try hard on a turboprop to be 'hot and high' - energy management on a jet is a whole different world, as any honest ex-turboprop pilot will tell you. It is incredibly easy to find yourself up the creek without a paddle with an unstable approach on a jet - in a turboprop you just close the throttles and the 2 huge eggs whisks are the best speed brakes ever invented. The issue of range is also very critical - in a typical week a jet captain can find operating in the snow of Helsinki or the sun of Marrakech, Gibraltar or Funchal. Operations to these breadth of destinations tends to be a jet feature due to the longer ranges they are capable of. Each one of those destinations require signficant knowledge and experience to be able to safely operate there. Also the huge range of weather types you experience in these widespread operations (even more so on a transcontinental jet like a 747 or A340) simply require experience in order to be able to deal with them correctly. Some turboprops do not even have passenger oxygen on board because they operate at lower levels (or can get down to 10,000' quickly in the case of the Q400). When I was on turboprops, there was little talk of drift down as I never went anywhere with high enough mountains to worry about! Even the ATC was more of a problem on jets due to the fact that it took time to adjust to the wide variety of accents you heard day-to-day on the radio as you travelled to more places! I was a turboprop captain with 1800 hours total time - not uncommon in those days and I felt able to handle the role. The thought of being an Airbus captain with that level of experience is frankly alarming. As I said in a previous post, you would be incredibly vulnerable to something going wrong. It does not mean you cannot pass the course - it does mean you lack the breadth of experience necessary to deal with the enormous range of events that can occur in jet operations for the reasons I have given (range, weather, heights, speeds, complexity, handling characteristics, ATC variations).

The phrase I used previously that sent a couple of frail souls over the edge was when I suggested that to go from a turboprop to medium jet captain in one hit was a 'recipe for disaster'. I stand totally by that view - it has proven to be an enormous jump for many people to go straight from the left seat of even of an Embraer 145 or BAe 146 to that of an Airbus or 737. It would undoubtedly have been too much for me, as I freely admit. A number of people have done so successfully - but a significant number have not managed it well. It is also worth mentioning that the fact that medium jet captains are trying to get turboprop jobs does not mean anything other than the fact they are unemployed and need a job. The fact they are being considered at all tells its own story - there is a long and successful history of ex-jet captains finishing off their flying careers on turboprops.

So in answer to Knee Trembler's question, would 6 month's be appropriate in the RHS for ex-jet captains? For the reasons I have given, the answer is No. I genuinely believe that despite the clear difficulties of going in either direction, the route from turboprop to jet overall requires significantly more adjustment than going the other way. For those that feel offended by that view, I am sorry, but there you have it.

And by the way - I think the Embraer 190 is a fine-looking beast. I would be delighted to fly one myself, but it does not look like easyJet will be getting any soon!

[kuwaitlocal]

NSF

You say that as a low hour F/O you got to do a single engine landing. The question has to be asked, as a truly experienced captain that you are, would you place a low hour F/O in such a predicament? If it had all gone wrong we all know what the subsequent question would have been. In turn this brings us to the question of a low jet houred captain, who would be best placed in handling say a 'Dual hydraulic loss'? We all know we can sit back and manage the situation but at some point we have to take responsibility for the final outcome, as I'm sure those sitting behind us would like.

I'm not taking anything away from the ability of the F/O, Easy has many who are overdue their command.

[Knee Trembler]

NSF,

As I said, we've both made our point and that is that.

For my part, I am pleased that those tasked with running the concern that pays my wages have a less entrenched view and have seen fit to bestow the 737 Classic replacement with us (as well as other companies in the group). Whether that move will prove disastrous, time will tell. I personally will have no problems flying in the back of one of our own aircraft.

KT

[Lord Amberden]

That's funny Clara, thought you were still in nappies when Gill were operating. :p

[Longhitter]

NSF

First of all: you sound like an arrogant and pompous g*t.

Yes, there are handling differences between jets and turboprops. Command potential, however, has close to nothing to do with that but mostly with experience. I work for an outfit where people are trained properly and even a junior FO is allowed & can be trusted to do a single engine approach. How is that for a comforting thought for the SLF? You're basically saying that you don't trust your young colleague with handling the aicraft in an emergency. That's sad, I hope your company has even stricter rules than the CAA on medicals and crew food because God forbid that you ever become incapacitated....

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

NSF,

I respect your opinions and admittedly, I have never flown turboprops, However, for the first time ever, I tend to disagree with you. I have friends who started off in flying on the Shorts 360, an unpressurised aircraft with no autopilot. They spent their formative years unable to climb above the weather, hand flying every other sector. They never had any problems with transitioning to jets, In fact, I could argue that someone with 3000 hours doing this type of flying would have significantly more experience than someone with 3000 hours in one of our own aircraft, largely spent on autopilot. Granted energy managment is a whole different ball game, but that should be nothing that anyone who can do their three times table cannot deal with.

In reverse, I could certainly not go from my LHS A319 to the LHS of a turboprop - too many levers for one thing. Besides, the A319 must be easy - Even Clara managed to pass a line check ( Allegedly!!)

However, back to thread please (guilty as charged -I know) I cannot see this pairing optimiser working. I think our trainers are going to be very busy this summer!!! Here's hoping!

FPS

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Longhitter

Our company stipulates that in an abnormal situation, It is the captain who will be PF for the landing.

I think you are way off the mark with your comments about NSF, one of the biggest advocates for the professionalism of our F/Os and indeed, his comments here re-inforce his opinion of the quality of our F/Os and their suitability for command.

Anyway, he will defend himself much more eloquently than I could so I'm off now.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Longhitter wrote about NSF:

First of all: you sound like an arrogant and pompous g*t.



Whereas as Longhitter writes this sort of thing to people interested in joining his little air operation:

http://www.pprune.org/2649277-post5.html



Did you not pen this on the 12th June 20o6 at 11.05 GMT?



With that attitude you're not going to make a lot of friends in the business...

Like in every company: if you don't like working there for any reason you should look for something else and don't blame the company for your own misery. If you are in any way smart you will have gathered info on the terms and conditions / lifestyle before joining and since you are in control of your own life you shouldn't nag afterwards.

The financial situation of CJ is sound, fleet will expand to +/- 23 RJ's over the next year or so, best stafftravel deal in the business.

'Nuff said...




How's it going these days in ****ty jet?

Good?



I note this week 01st March 2009 08:51 you chose to write;


Since the French are convinced that their ways are best they can't be bothered to think about running their ATC more efficiently.

About the ATC Officers controlling Paris Charles de Gaulle airport. Interesting.





If you have a box, strongly consider getting back in it. Ta.


WWW

[Longhitter]

WWW

So I have strong opinions about stuff, sound familiar? I will say things as I feel them since we live in a part of the world where freedom of speech is (still, for the moment) a basic human right.

No, I will not go back in any box.

Any relevant things to add except digging up my prune history?

I do not disagree with SNF in the experience department, I just disagree with his disdain for turboprop experience and the way he described his view on what a FO should and can(not) do. I too think that going from a left seat in a prop to the left seat in a jet is not a good idea, better get some hours in the right seat to get a feel for the handling. Decision making and airmanship, however, grow just as fast (maybe even faster) operating a small jet or turboprop.

I am not the only one who felt a sense of arrogance in his point of view, hence the reaction.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A disdain only your inferred.

And I'm sure you were.

But that's fine now.



WWW


ps How is life in ****tyjet?

[Longhitter]

That was 3 years ago! Wouldn't know, therefore.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ah, no friends in previous job. I see.

WWW

[Longhitter]

That's not it, I'm just not into writing stuff here that is second-hand info. Ask them directly.

[jb5000]

Longhitter,

Don't take it all so personally, dear!

You're basically saying that you don't trust your young colleague with handling the aicraft in an emergency.

Really? Is he really saying that?? The answer is, of course, no.

First of all: you sound like an arrogant and pompous g*t.

Lovely! Can't wait to meet you in the Flight Deck. Silence between 'Set Standard' and 'Set QNH' no doubt.

As WWW says, back in the box.....

[JW411]

NSF:

Your defensive posts are getting longer and longer. The phrase "he doth protest too much" springs to mind.

The fact is that you are coming over as a bit of a pompous chappy.

I usually enjoy and agree with most of your posts but I think you have upset quite a few people with your fixed ideas (no doubt all based on your own experience).

I came to jets from 16 years of turboprops (10 years of Argosy and 6 years of Belfast). I was in the right seat of the DC-10 for just one year when I got my command and went on to cruise around the globe in one without an ounce of trouble for six years including a couple of years of line training on it.

I found it a very easy transition.

Perhaps my perspective on the problem is a little bit different from yours since flying round the world (literally) with turboprops is a little bit different to Channex doing early morning papers to Jersey and Guernsey and then fetching flowers back to Bournemouth?

(That is assuming that the aircraft wasn't broken in the process).

[Stan Woolley]

A good operator in a Turboprop will be a good operator on a jet.

Even good guys new on a type will need a while to get comfortable. IMO

Just ask many of the Britannia guys who went from 15 years on the 737-200 to the 767!! :eek:

'Can I fly it manually now.............PLEASE'

[seasexsun]

NSF said
However, a turboprop is slower, less complex overall, does not travel as far afield and operates at much lower levels.


above FL100, being at FL250 or FL340 does not make any difference, the TAS/GS/MN high or low does not make any difference on straight lines between 2 waypoints (cruise are always flown in autopilot while we read the newspaper and we drink the coffee)..
Below FL100, speed is limited to 250 kts maximum, and this is always reached with an ATR or Dash8 in descent.
Approaching speed is more or less the same with a heavy TP or heavy jet.

[ed_boy]

Apparently WWW's dad is bigger than Longhitters's dad.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And he's got a black belt.

WWW

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Thanks chaps for those that are supportive. To the Longhitters of the world, what can I say? Nothing at all.

My case is laid out, and for some it appears all too much to read. Actually Stan Woolley has said it all far better than I have in a sentence - "Even good guys new on a type will need a while to get comfortable. IMO". Much more succinct than me and absolutely correct. Anyway, that's it from me on this one - thanks for the discussion. Best of luck to those trying to get permanent jobs at easyJet, which is what this was all about in the first place.

[Doug the Head]

A good operator in a Turboprop will be a good operator on a jet.Fully agree!

I came from a commuter size turbo prop and didn't have a problem, neither did any of the other people in my class with similar back grounds, nor the people in the class before and after me.

It's one of those typical old fashioned, out of touch, ideas that people who have flown props are no good. Perhaps it was like that in the 1950's when NSF got into aviation, but believe it or not, things have progressed considerably over the course of 5 decades... ;)

As seasexsun pointed out earlier, automation levels (EFIS, Cat III etc) are roughly the same and so are approach speeds. The only thing missing in general is autothrottle/thrust. Perhaps descent planning is a bit different because jets tend to be a bit more slippery than props, but that should be nothing that any average pilot can't fix. Just different numbers, like pitch and power...

There has to be a first time for everything in life, all it comes down to is; good selection, good preparation, good training and the proper attitude.

[Homer_J]

It appeared the simple question I asked a few days ago has sparked quite the debate.

The reason I asked was that i've never had any wish to do long haul, and so easyjet with all its pros and cons seemed quite a good idea. The reason I was asking about a direct entry command was a purely financial one. I'm not sure my mortgage, car loan and multiple holidays a year would appreciate the £10 - 20,000 pay cut. Six months fine, but a few years.

As for the turboprop/ jet thing.

I'd like to make a few points.

We're not talking about going from a Q400 to a 747.

I'd like to think Q400 is fairly beasty. Its got lots of fun things like fadec and efis(makes my mate(a 757 chap) rather jelous on the efis front.).

As for its performance. if i take off after a BA shuttle, there usually isn't much in it after 10-15 mins. Granted once he gets into the cruise, they leave us for dead, And granted the best I can look forward to is a coffee and a nutrigrain bar, while they've got there sausages and egg. But thats another matter entirly.

On the approach. And take note here. If I get to FL150, and I'm sat 10nm behind a jet. I WILL have to slow down so as not to catch the jet up. its very frustrating. ATC will pop us behind on the theory that there faster. But there not. Especially below FL100.

Anyway. I was just asking.

just a wee point. I think that if I went from my Q400 to a EBM 145(which is smaller and not much faster than the 400 at any point). i could then go to the LHs of a A319. Which seems bizzare.

See ya'll later

[napolean]

Many aircraft have windscreen bird-strike limits of 250Knots below FL100 or 80, both jet and turboprop. If you have to slow down behind jets, it is not because the Q400 is faster, but that the jet chooses to slow down to 250knots or less due to company sops, atc, etc. Most turboprops can scream in towards an approach because they have better get of of jail cards than a jet for slowing down late. Like it or not, most companies will prefer to familiarise t/prop only pilots in the RS before moving them to LS, with the exception maybe of smaller jets like the EMB145.

Regards.

[seasexsun]

Like it or not, most companies will prefer to familiarise t/prop only pilots in the RS before moving them to LS, with the exception maybe of smaller jets like the EMB145.



don't worry baby, tha's an old fashioned point of view, and mentalities are changing. Cargolux used to ask jet hours in order to apply, this is not anymore the case. And as mentioned in earlier posts, lots of famous europeen companies with a big fleet do hire turboprop captains on the left hand seat of a jet aircraft.
GSS has hired turboprop guys straight onto the jumbo, unfortunataly for you and your little friend NSF, those airplanes has not crashed yet.:hmm:

[Doug the Head]

his is the english style to make the company saving £10k a year on the new FO. In other words, this is not a pay increase, this is a worse pay in the biggining and normal pay afterwards, for the same job... We don't have that in latin countriesSpot on!

Jet vs prop will always be a chicken or the egg story, especially in the UK where most employees are gullible enough to believe every line from management. Other countries take a more pragmatic view, with an equally good safety record by the way.

Prop pilots are 'no good,' unless of course they pay 23K for a TRSS type rating, then all over sudden it's 'top notch.' :yuk:

Sorry to say so, but NSF is sounding more and more like a management lackey.

p.s. How anyone ever gets to fly jets when most people start off on props is beyond me. Did they all do their PPL on a 737? :confused:

[TRon]

Anyone who knows who NSF is in easyJet or on our BALPA forum will know him to be widely be one of the most respected, reasoned and professional operators that we have here. His reputation is faultless to many of the people in easy who have never even met him.

Whenever I read one of his posts they are always balanced but with his own opinions as a caveat and I believe he has the rare talent to see two sides of every argument.

If you have taken his post to be offensive or in some way pompous I suggest that is you taking offense to some form of inferiority complex that seems to be fuelled by take off weight and how high you sit from the ground on your aeroplane. Fact is we will all look out of the window and look down on people. That's just human nature and we here aren't going to change that. I am sure BA guys look out of their 319 at our Orange dayglow paint scheme with a certain amount of disdain. Maybe they do, maybe many don't..I don't know and to be honest I don't really care. I try to go to work, enjoy it for what it is and not get too wound up about what I fly.

Fact is easyJet in their inifinite wisdom have decided a MTOW for Direct Entry Captain at the time they needed them and for non TRSS Direct Entry FO's. It was all on supply and demand. They probably turned away many many great operators with their rules and barriers to entry. Then so have many other airlines, but fact is it's their trainset we have to remember that...Now times have changed and according to WWW we are all going to spiral into years of debt ridden doom ;)

All I know is my own experience, and whilst I might quite happily pass a sim, line training and line check on a new type LHS could I really honestly say I know it enough to command it? Yes maybe I could in my own mind and with confidence operate it safely....But am I being arrogant or confident or naive..I can't answer that and by not having an incident is that down to me primarily or the world that we live in now of automation and a strong safety culture... Standards, safety records and reliability are all far better then they have ever been (touch wood!) and the actual chances of an aircraft/crew related incident are very low.

Before you all start turning to NSF and saying he is being pompous have a little look inside yourselves and see the message he is conveying. Remember it is his opinion and you have yours and I guess the truth is somewhere in between. Where the truth is who knows, but that's above my pay grade for sure ;) ..Oh well, off to Lyon in the Kyriad again for me..! :ok:

[sika hulmuta]

Well said TRon. If people actually read the wise words that NSF has written instead of heading off on a rant with an agenda, we might be spared some of the inane comments...

[olster]

As an ex easy 737 TRE/TRI I can say that NSF and TRon are spot on.It is easy to imagine that one can seamlessly transition from the LHS of a t/prop to a jet but the reality is different unfortunately.

[JPHIL68]

in the last pmail or the F... mail ......

Monday 02nd March saw the arrival of the first CTC Aviation Flexi-crew contract
pilots to join easyJet. A total of 60 cadet pilots will join easyJet this summer
between 02nd March and the end of April. All cadet pilots will have completed
type rating training at CTC Aviation and will then join us for line training and
line flying. These pilots will be based throughout the UK, operate as First Officers on the Airbus and will
fly under contract to us until the end of the summer months. A total of 11 Boeing pilots started earlier this
year in January and will also fly for the majority of our peak summer season.
In May we will also welcome back 12 of last year’s CTC wings and ATP cadets for a Summer season
under contract also through the CTC Flexi-crew scheme. More about them though closer to their arrival.
We have been working with CTC Aviation for a number of years and have previously accepted cadets
from CTC Aviation through their Wings cadet programme or ATP
scheme. The Flexi-crew scheme has replaced these pilot entry schemes
and we are pleased to be working with CTC Aviation who have
introduced this scheme to assist us in managing our seasonality.


Managing.....is it a word at easyjet??????????

so all the reflexion regarding turbopros or jet is dead........ ctc the solution:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:

and doesn t matter if it s an internal information :mad::mad::mad:

[ed_boy]

pay peanuts, get monkeys...:ok:

[Gnirren]

Why don't you jetjocks with your vectored ILS approaches to 2600m runways take a month off and jumpseat with Wideroe going into some godforsaken corner of northern Norway with the winds howling down the mountains on an NDB approach to land on a 800m runway lodged in some fjord. Then you can go back to your airbus, switch on the a/p, grab your coffee and keep kidding yourselves that you're better pilots. :ok:

[olster]

God save us from the drivel written behind the cloak of anonymity here.Airbuses/737s also fly to windy Scandinavian destinations;the challenges are exponentially worse.Low cost pilots are not the solution either.Flying Clara:I spent 6 years with easy in the training role and I never met anyone like you as f/o or s/o-you are either a wind-up merchant or just a moron.Psychological agendae abound;bigger/faster is not better but the potential for cock up is greater.Deaf ears I suppose.Out.

[Gnirren]

737s also fly to windy Scandinavian destinations;the challenges are exponentially worse.

Holy competence Batman, that's exactly what I'm doing!

I must be some kind of super-pilot :p

[Deep and fast]

You Orange boys and girls should really lghten up a bit! Clara has you seething like rabid dogs!

The real problem is the diminishing cachet of the airline pilot.

With flexi crew it is next stage in the downward spiral of t and c's The only thing that will stop it is a crash(Turkish?) or legislation. Do easy customers know they are being driven by a trainee. Whatever anybody says there is an increased risk in the first 500 hours until you gain a lot of spare capacity. When pilots are employed the risk is minimised as you only have limited numbers, these lot will leave to be replaced by fresh money.

A tv documentry is needed to highlight the matter I think bearing in mind the recent mechanical failures of aircraft.

Really the general pilot body doesn't have the balls to bring it to a halt in todays economic climate. Hopefully the lack of credit will stem the flow though.

D and F :8

[JPHIL68]

Dear flying clara ..easy will change the livery on all planes just for you...

come on let's fUC. maybe the only time for you dear clara regarding you brain:E:E:E:E:E:E:E

poor girl...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[hotelmodemetar]

What's the current situation at easyJet? I 've heard they are still calling people for interviews, but on the other hand as far as I know from what we can read on pprune is that there are still a few pilots waiting in the pool because of some priority given to cheap wannabes from CTC or ATP willing to work for a 6 months contract with a poor salary, is that right? :confused:

[Martian Invader]

Ed Boy

Are you Flying Clara of ATP fame? seems you post on the same threads that all :E

[edmooriginal]

On that note Ed Boy is not me and Flying Clara has nothing to do with ATP.

I'm sure only a select few will know what I'm talking about.

[power set]

Homer

On the approach. And take note here. If I get to FL150, and I'm sat 10nm behind a jet. I WILL have to slow down so as not to catch the jet up. its very frustrating. ATC will pop us behind on the theory that there faster. But there not. Especially below FL100.

That statement alone says you need to be taught/practice the principles of jet energy management.

[mikehammer]

Which I think reminds me of the original reason why someone suggested there were some pompous posts here.

Anyway, back to Easy. Educated guesses on when, if ever, they will be recruiting again in numbers? Closest answer wins...a new jet job (and the "jet energy" to go with it)?

[kick the tires]

I think the recruitment is very fluid at easy. They have realised the pairings optimiser isnt going to produce the miracle solutions they had hoped for.

They are looking around for contract pilots and will have a big fight on their hands if they even find any; BALPA is not impressed by their deception or their plans.

So watch this space for a last minute rush!

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Anyone on the inside heard any rumours regarding TRSS recently? Many thanks.

[ROSCO328]

I think it is pretty clear we will not see Trss happening for the foreseeable future, not while there are people willing to take 6 month contracts and then get binned! NEXT................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Yeah that's pretty much my take on it, unfortunately. However I'm just curious as to any rumours from within, more in blind optimism than hope I must admit. :)

[PPRuNeUser0178]

The only repeating rumour I am hearing is that we are about to have a very caotic summer.

We will be short, and the opposition are trying to be crafty in coming up with ways that plug the gaps and atthe same time further erode our T's and C's.

I see from this weeks flight that transavia have an opening for a COO in their new Danish operation, anyone think they'd have him back ? I'd take a pay cut to fund his departure expenses:yuk:

[Long Pilot]

Easyjet really take the biscuit! and the tea and coffee! :(

[JPHIL68]

And from inside too....

"Whilst water will continue to be provided, tea and coffee will be removed. However, milk and cups will be provided should crew wish to bring their own tea and coffee. This change to drinks pack alone provides a saving of £400 000."

close to be like ryanair:{:{:{:{:{

[nuageblanc]

Dear Jean- Philippe 68,

You seem to have now changed your mind...in the right way ! A few months ago you did not agree with me to the fact that Low cost are **** place to work, and the only thing they can do is to downgrade the conditions and salary of our profession, and make air transport worse and worse to the PAX. I told you, I told you, you and your friends, you have to get out of that ******* **** (ryanair, easyjet, wizzair, vueling, skyeurope...) , and please listen to me for god sake, GO TO MAIN AIRLINES like BA, AF-KLM, things like that, you will immediatly stop to complain as your frustration will disapear.

Bonne Chance.


Guillaume (AF) :ok:

[fiftypercentn1]

ahahahaaha i can agree with you for some things..but I really wish that getting rid of peoples frustrations was as easy as joining a flag carrier! I have heard sooooo many (sometimes absurd) complaints from major carriers pilots.
The difference is that most of low cost airlines pilots will be somewhere else in 10 years hopefully enjoying a new adventure, in a new enviroment, learning new things (this yes is good to get rid of frustrations!).
I have yet to see an AF pilot leaving for a contract in Central America!Having said that, nuageblanc it's very good you found heaven on earth and enjoy it without always comparing your situations to everyone else that is not as lucky (?) as you!

ok I m tired now..I ll go get myself a coffe:} !

[nuageblanc]

ahahahaaha i can agree with you for some things..but I really wish that getting rid of peoples frustrations was as easy as joining a flag carrier! I have heard sooooo many (sometimes absurd) complaints from major carriers pilots.
The difference is that most of low cost airlines pilots will be somewhere else in 10 years hopefully enjoying a new adventure, in a new enviroment, learning new things (this yes is good to get rid of frustrations!).
I have yet to see an AF pilot leaving for a contract in Central America!Having said that, nuageblanc it's very good you found heaven on earth and enjoy it without always comparing your situations to everyone else that is not as lucky (?) as you!

ok I m tired now..I ll go get myself a coffehttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif !


:confused::confused: please say again after "ahahahahaha" ?

[Longhitter]

Anybody objecting when I call nuageblanc a pompous git? :}

[Sick]

...just French :8

[mikehammer]

"Whilst water will continue to be provided, tea and coffee will be removed. However, milk and cups will be provided should crew wish to bring their own tea and coffee. This change to drinks pack alone provides a saving of £400 000."



Oh dear. Taking money saving to the extreme, without counting the real cost in terms of morale and staff values. It won't pay off in the long term, but it would take a set of strategic long term thinkers to realise this. It sounds like Easy can't afford such thinkers in its management at present - and not just in financial terms.

[Dan Winterland]

But he has a point. "Low cost" really means "low overheads". Pilots are overheads.

[Homer_J]

If pilots are overheads and we need to lower the overheads, then I might just have a plan.

Shorter pilots!

ta da!

[TurboJ]

Why don't you jetjocks with your vectored ILS approaches to 2600m runways take a month off and jumpseat with Wideroe going into some godforsaken corner of northern Norway with the winds howling down the mountains on an NDB approach to land on a 800m runway lodged in some fjord. Then you can go back to your airbus, switch on the a/p, grab your coffee and keep kidding yourselves that you're better pilots.

Sounds like far too much work; I'm just gonna grab the coffee....I mean get some out of my bag and ask someone to make it for me.....:cool:

[thebeast]

is this tea and coffee thing for real. I m always embarrassed when i have to tell friends we ask for 'hot waters'....but thought EasyJet was an example of what working for RYR should be like....but perhaps not. Even with union backing ...

This is depressing..are any carriers actually suitable for long terms careers, where will we be in 20 years time......


'where re doomed'

[puma230]

Tosh.....Flying Clara your initials aren't TM are they? Sounds like you've swallowed the Ezy guide to bad management!

[easyme]

FC,

Your latest post shows how ignorant you are - how do you suggest we get these hazardous liquids past security?

[jb5000]

How are we supposed to get those through security?

Have you ever actually worked for an airline? Ten quid says no.

[ROSCO328]

Stop biting Guys and gals!! FC is a wynd up merchant! We do not see it on the private page because it is not an employee.....simpoles!!!:)

[Kiwi red]

Flying Clara I'm assuming for your sake that you don't work for an airline (and lets hope if you do it's not easyjet).

I agree you can bring water, coke cola, orange juice on board the aircraft if you buy them airside or if they're brought through security empty. Ryanair has it's crew room airside and they are able to fill their containers up from water machines available to them. Unfortunately easyJet does not have crew rooms airside so this is not possible, also no water machines, so a little difficult to do this.


Stop biting Guys and gals!! FC is a wynd up merchant! We do not see it on the private page because it is not an employee.....simpoles!!!

Yes I know Rosco328 but it's so much fun to bite sometimes and she makes this thread so much more interesting to read. I read it to have a laugh at her comments!

[veetwo]

Clara what on earth are you on about. At Gatwick where I work, you are certainly not allowed to bring any liquids through security (regardless of ID and Uniform). There is neither the opportunity nor the time to buy liquids airside having passed through security, so exactly how are you supposed to take any drinks with you?

[Dropline]

Flying Clara

In the UK you can still only bring liquids through security in 100ml containers. Not a practical option for bringing drinks to work with you. Airport staff and flight crew are NOT exempt from these rules... The only option is to buy overpriced drinks from an airside shop or vending machine - that's assuming you have time to queue up with the passengers or can find a machine that actually works when you put your £1.60 in, (yes it's £1.60 for a bottle of coke!)

[Waggon rut]

Flying_Clara you really talk a load of sh*t, you know nothing about this business

[mikehammer]

I work for a small bottom feeder cargo airline. We have no liquids available on board, paid for or otherwise. If we're organised we load up with drinks when outside of the UK, but generally we're not, and the aircraft is devoid of coke! It IS a problem. We operate in a dry (well drier than on the ground) atmosphere, and it's thirsty work. I used to envy bigger airlines like Easy with their coffee perks (no pun).

Although this sounds like a small issue, when you work day in, day out, and have to buy drinks airside, it does become expensive.

Heaven only knows when things will pick up in this industry, but, if in the future it did ever happen to boil down to (okay, pun intended) a job offer with a company who look after you on the flight deck, compared to Easy who now seem to be driving towards you incurring more and more high costs whilst at work (often, no doubt, having to buy from Easy themselves to top up your water allowance), I know where I'd be inclined. After all, it's the small things which often display how you'll be valued as an employee in the long run.

Regrettably I cannot forsee myself ever being in such a situation of choice. For now....

[PENKO]

Clara, please, stop it. Are you in easyJet already?

[fiftypercentn1]

sorry nuageblanc I forgot the fantastic level of english you guys have in France.. you are right, I should explain with different words, but it would be wasting time..enjoy your wonderful airline,life,nightstops,trips etc.much better than anyone else's.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Clara,

Are you flying for an airline at the moment, or ever have done?

My suspicion is "no", and give it a few years and you will be the first to gripe about those new entrants who appear to be raping the terms and conditions of your beloved job, and will swear blind that it wasn't like that in your day!

Just remember....

Your general attitude is atrocious, and the fact you refer to Easy as "we" and sign off as Easy Clara, does your arrogance know no bounds???? Apparently not...

Your knowledge of the general industry is obviously limited re. the security issue, but more the problem, your ideas of what makes pilots tick is non-existent.

I'm guessing you have paid for a rating, and have no other experience in TPs, night freight, air taxi, apprenticeships generally????

The truth will find you out is a wonderful saying......

What a pleasure you will be....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[captplaystation]

If "it" really is a "she", is it possible for a woman to be a w@nker ? or is there another derogatory term that I should be familiar with, & therefore able to apply to the opposite sex ? :ugh: :yuk:

[ROSCO328]

Dear all,

Please can anyone tell me how to report FLYING CLARA?? It would seem I hit a nerve with my last post and in return I recieved a very offensive private email which I would like a moderator to view. My thanks in advance.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Rosco just private message a mod and explain, I'm pretty sure they can access your inbox if needs be. I'd also advocate the use of the ignore function with Flying Muppet. He/She/It is a waste of space.

[mikehammer]

Cmon-Pullup

I agree that a lot of people will jump ship from Easy, when they can, exactly the same happened at Ryanair a few years ago, they were bleeding pilots main artery style, until they realised that they had to at least give them a fair crack at base choice, and also stabilise the roster situation. Arguably the situation there now is the minimum basic requirement to keep people, I won't say happy, but to keep people or rather to lose a lot fewer than previous figures.

Management, in any company, need to realise that the imposition of change in terms and working conditions needs to be tackled with kid gloves. Negotiation and agreement is the only way, unless you don't care if you replace your whole workforce, or a substantial, formerly valuable, part. Some changes are just not worth the cost saving because of the damage to the way people will work for you due to their changing attitude towards management and the workplace. I think that this damage is occurring now at Easy, from what I read here, and from those I know who work there.

Question is, when will they be able to move on, how much will it cost the company - I am guessing they have projected figures for the financial implication, but it is simply not possible to guess how the company will change as a result of changing attitudes.

I think one thing is certain: there will not be a problem replacing those who leave, however you are right in that there is a financial cost in this, and a hidden cost also. Perhaps interestingly, Easy will possibly become more like Ryanair, with far fewer career Easyjet pilots than before, more and more might join, serve their two years or whatever is their goal, and move on. I hope management have accounted for all of that.

For myself, I would still, one day, like to work for Easy, but it is now more an opportunity to progress temporarily, rather than to settle there long term. That way I can let the current management style wash over me and not be too concerned about it. Frankly I can think of no other defence to being valued how Easy appear to be valuing staff currently.

[EGCC4284]

Simple solution here

Join BALPA

Get your CC to tell Management what you’re not happy with and give them 30 days to come back with a solution.

If you’re still not happy, ballot for industrial action.

You then watch Management **** themselves and when the dust settles, watch the re shuffle of Managers.

BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA

Clara, fancy dinner sometime. Your funny

[Localiser]

Clara, you really are a tosser and indeed a shining example of why myself and many other professional pilots rarely use this site anymore.

Unbelievable. Get back to Flight Sim on your PC. Thank goodness I will never have to share a flight deck with you.

Rant over :*

[zumzum]

EGCC,
I think you are absolutely right and I think that at some point we will all end up in a ballot. In my base this is what the workforce is ready to do. BALPA is not happy and in the last newsletter released say it clearly.

Our professionalism is not up for sale...:=

Regarding the Crew Food I would like to encourage anyone to fill out a fatigue report if he/she thinks food and water ( only 1 liter of water for 5 hours of flight duty) is not enough and report it to the CAA as well. There is a matter of safety here!

Please be united! and be READY!

Regarding Clara: she is not even a professional pilot. let her talk and do not reply. I doubt she'll be never ever seated on an airline jet, or maybe yes...but having paid a ticket...:hmm:
thanks
zz

[Localiser]

Yes you're right. I got irritated then and felt unable to be quiet any longer!

And we must all be united on all issues. But don't you think that all this stuff may be better discussed on the private forum rather than airing dirty linen in public? (even journos can read this!). Please don't think I'm criticising, merely a comment or open question really.

[ATRISGREAT]

Does easyjet hire low hours pilots. I have a jar25 type rating and about 300 hours total. I would love to fly an easyjet airbus a319.
Do I have to apply directly with easyjet or ctc or atp?
Many thanks for your help.
PS: I don't mind if there is no food/drinks on board. I have been working in a bank where they don´t provide you with any food/drinks, so I am used to it. :cool:

John.

[sika hulmuta]

Flying Clara is a Troll either from, or trying to get into Hangar 89. Ignore it.

[wind check]

Join BALPA


Balpa has lost lots of members (and I am one of those) because they are just USELESS. The only thing they want is to suck you 500 pounds a year on your bank account for doing nothing. :yuk:

[Localiser]

Wind check - well they'll definately do nothing for you now you're not a member!

Seriously though, please put your past experiences and expectations aside and consider joining again. Please. We need all the members we can get now. These are dark times. If after a few months and hopefully all this has calmed down a little then leave again.

But please consider re-joining.

[BSmuppet]

Why the slating of Clara?

She seems passionate about the company she works for and is adopting the "don't give me problems; give me solutions" approach.

I like her style. I certainly would not be complaining - there are 1000s of low hr cadets out there ready to fill in the shoes of those dissatisfied.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Because she is a total muppet, BSmuppet. She has no idea what she is talking about and has the square root of :mad: all experience in the job, yet preaches to those who have worked for the company and been in this business for years, telling them they should be grateful that easyjet see fit to employ them. At best naieve, at worst completely ego-centric and unable to comprehend anything beyond her own nose.

She'll make a great manager.

[Right Touch]

BSMUPPET

CLARA does not and will never fly for Easyjet , she/he is a TROLL , ignore her/him.

Those of us in BALPA in Easy are defending our Terms and Conditions and those of the 1000's who would like in the future to fill our shoes.

Your attitude and those 1000's like you, only serve to drive pay & conditions at Easy (and all other airlines) further into an ever increasing downward spiral, fuelled by your blind ambition to sit in a shiny jet and the acceptance of the lowering terms and conditions in order to do so.

Please look at the wider bigger picture.

At the moment you are an Airline Managers wet dream.

[mikehammer]

This message is hidden because BSmuppet is on your ignore list (http://www.pprune.org/profile.php?do=editlist).

This message is hidden because Flying_Clara is on your ignore list (http://www.pprune.org/profile.php?do=editlist).

Ah, sigh, that's better. Now back to the thread.

[MX16]

I'm pretty sure that in the past Clara has claimed to have been one of the ATP pay to fly gals/guys from last summer. If that's the case then she/he is probably returning for another 6 months this year.

[Right Touch]

Nobody from the ATP pay as you go scheme was ever offered employment from Easyjet.

The temps or "flexicrew" FO's for this summer all come from the various CTC schemes one of which is also confusingly called ATP :confused:

[carbheatout]

Absolutely priceless!

Watching you lot get wound up by a phantom internet poster (FlyingClara). Do carry on though, it’s far more entertaining than the rest of the same old drivel being discussed here :zzz:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I have it on very good authority that some of the ATP pay to fly people will return this summer. It remains to be seen whether the company will charge them £7.50 for speedy boarding each time they get on after a walkround. I vote Clara makes tea in the lgw crewroom every morning. (you will need to bring the teabags clara)

[stakeknife]

Guys, this latest communication from the company is only pushing us in one direction and that is a ballot on industrial action. At the start of the summer schedule the management has lost all goodwill from their pilots. Fatigue reports will be through the roof. Get those rosters off to the FRMS team and play hardball with crewing. To quote the company, these measures 'simplify' our hotel facilities, so let us simplify our working lives, it is more simple to...
-not do discretion
-carry extra fuel
-call in fatigued after a night at the ibis.


We have fought hard to get what conditions we have, it is time again to stick together and ensure the company are under no illusions as to where this attitude will take them.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!!!!

rant over

[smellster]

I just removed FC from my ignore list and had a great laugh reading this thread... he/she/it is a great wind-up merchant, and I can't believe how many people get sucked in.

If you're really that bothered check out he/she/it's previous posts dating back to Feb07 when he/she/it claimed to have been virgin cabin crew for 5 months asking about training at Airmed Valencia but not being able to speak Spanish. Then there's the parents having a house in Murcia, then there's the initial Class 1 medical in Jan08 in Madrid, converting the Spanish licence to a UK one. That's when the inquiries about various companies begins: netjets, ryanair, air nostrum, Air europa, Vueling (in basic Spanish) swiftair, the ATP scheme and then Easyjet, and then the windups begin.

So..... I doubt it's an Easy management windup (much too intricate and would require planning unless there's a bonus in it!:ugh:), more likely a failed and very bitter CTC/ATP cadet if he/she/it got that far.
But in the unlikely event he/she/it does make it to Easy then it shouldn't take too long to find him/her/it out.
Word will get around and then soon he/she/it will become every skippers "beatch (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beatch)" for the day.

Looking forward to "working" with you Flying Clara! ;) Feel free to PM me.

[HighHeeled-FA]

Flying Clara,

I have read this thread with interest and amusement.

I have not checked smellster's remarks but it seems that you are not what you say you are due to your history of posts.

So a lot of people are understandably annoyed with you. As has been pointed out, pilots took a pay cut inorder to save certain "perks" if you can call it that. Also it isn't very motivating for them to hear that their water is being taken away yet management still get payrises and get as much water as they need from the water cooler in the office!!!!

[HighHeeled-FA]

Clara,

I must apologise earlier for jumping on the bandwagon and thinking you were not "real". Going by your past posts, then perhaps you are a pilot joining in the summer.

But I'm a little surprised at how vocal you are being, especially if you are using your real name - Clara. There can't be too many Clara's joing in the summer who were ex Virgin CC.

Just calm down. I have heard many sob stories about the plight of pilots these days. And you will feel the same after the novelty of that shiny jet has worn off. Would you still agree with management if they stopped maternity pay - ridiculous as it sounds.

Just be careful with what you say. This is a small world so hopefully Clara is a "stage" name. But also saying your bf is a training Captain is probably not a good thing to boast about during your rants.

[Cancel2LateLunches]

Clara I would suggest that you take your argument to the BALPA forum but judging by your comments I doubt you are a member, so why not prove you are now a company pilot and make your posts in the Easyjet company forum here on PPrune. As you say you are a company pilot now so gaining access wont be a problem for you.

[HighHeeled-FA]

smellster - care to copy and paste the pm. I'd love to read it. Or send it to my PM. I could do with a laugh.

[totto70]

Well Clara it looks like it might be an avaliable position at the top of Flight ops soon. You seem to to fit the profile, Big mouth and extreme ability to piss people off and no clue what is going on. If i were you i would send my c.v to Andy H. a.s.a.p:}

[landedoutagain]

I imagine 'Clara' is a stage name, possible nicked from pigeon street, maybe she aspires to flying long distance? or maybe she goes all the way?!!


good luck to the EZ lot, water (and tea) is damned near essential when stuck in a cockpit all day. If you aim for the bottom line, you might end up six foot under...

[Permafrost_ATPL]

The topic is about our company Easyjet

Our company? You don't work for easyJet (try and get the casing right for starters). You've shagged and paid your way to a RHS for this summer. Not really the same thing.

P

[puma230]

As an Ezy trainer FC I'm not aware that anyone from the CTC wings programme has completed their Line Training. Certainly not to complete it and then hang around waiting for a contract. You can smell the BS from here.

[HighHeeled-FA]

puma230,

perhaps her bf has got her through the back door.

[puma230]

What.....she's been taken via the back door! Just the thought makes ya eyes water :eek:

[HighHeeled-FA]

I couldn't resist. :p Sorry for lowering the tone fellow ppruners.

Its a habit of mine.

[HighHeeled-FA]

Clara,

give it a rest hun

However good luck and congratulations for getting a job even now.

Enough with the EasyClara. It makes me cringe.

xxxeasyHighheeled-FA :yuk:

[flipster]

Clara,

Good advice from HHFA...please give it a rest. You don't bother me, as I was only passing through this thread but, my word, you are very good at winding people up! Sadly, some of those people will soon be your colleauges and it does not do you any favours to be a marked person...been there, done that.

I am sure you do not aim to be so contraversial on purpose but it is clear that you are strong-willed and quite opinionated. This is not such a bad thing....but please ask yourself these 3 questions:

"What if I'm wrong?"
"How do other people perceive me?"
"Could I make my point in a less confrontational way?"

With your obvious lack of flying experience, might I suggest that if you want to progress in EZY, or anywhere else for that matter, you learn a little bit of humble pie, or at least the ability to bite your tongue until you are settled in?

Some of the points you make are valid (eg I agree that management will want to squeeze every budget and reducing the coffe/tea does save some money....but not a lot! Unfortunately, it will reduce morale - but that's management for you!) However, unless you learn to modify your behaviour, you will not get very far in the airlines; the choice is yours.

A word from the wise

flipster

(retired angry young man)

ps On a jovial note, did you fall asleep during the human-factors and behavioural-markers part of the CRM course? Its not uncommon, you know, I know some trainers and management pilots who did too - maybe you could become like them?

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

"Easyjet is in serious financial troubles for the months to come, we are low cost hence we have to agree that cutting superficial cost is the key of the success."

Don't think there is a cost as superficial as Flying Clara

[PPRuNeUser0178]

I was almost about to add Clara to my ignore list along with little white cloudy boy, but actually she/he/it makes me laugh all things considered.

Don't bother trying to offer her advice, if she/he/it really is joining us for the summer, let her climb into a flight deck with that attitude, the results will be spectacular!

I hope I get her/him/it as my FO one day, boy am I gonna have fun, and hey, if I was TC then I might even get more than I bargained for so that he/she/it might pass the next OPC:}

Honestly guys those of us that have been around should just let her/him/it run off that cliff kicking and screaming all the way to the bottom, don't waste your effort, but do laugh at her/his/its utter utter foolishness, you and I both know it will be her undoing!

Clara, you carry on, your providing a great service on here, please don't stop. I cant wait for your next trick ( Bet the TC says that too ! )

[JPHIL68]

Clara before talking please ensure that your brain is on ......and please use condom for the future no more peoples like you:8:8:8

and for info did you know where you can put the 2stripes :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[smellster]

smellster - care to copy and paste the pm. I'd love to read it. Or send it to my PM. I could do with a laugh

I posted it earlier but a helpful moderator must have taken it down for a being a tad rude maybe. His/her/it's PM was something along the lines of suggesting I'd like to smell her red haired furry friend down below, but I wouldn't be allowed to because she has a boyfriend.

Made me laugh anyway.

[astronaute]

"The management knows what to do. You are not managers, you just don't have a f.ckin clue about how to manage such a company. Do trust them, and give them many thanks because without A.H and the other managers, we would all be without jobs"

I friend of mine whom is working with Easy, told me , your managers have hedged the fuel at 90 $ !!!:ugh:

I think it s because those F**CK**G morons , Easy wants to do some peanuts saving !:mad:

Ps All of these dick heads ,took their bonus :hmm:

[rothin]

Clara, please do NOT give it a rest.
The humorous reactions you are raising from your posts has made this one of the best threads ever.

[The Flying Cokeman]

Astronaute,

$90 I wish :\ No the management hedged at $115 for 60% of 2008/09 year :ugh:

I am sure if the management had hedged at $90 we would have seen more payrises for AH and his leutenant this year. They have just given each other a nice little 10% and 20% payrise respectively plus many free shares too :uhoh:
I guess the annual saving of £400.000 by removing some of our crewfood, coffee and water etc. has to cover their payrise :mad:

I am absolutely disgusted :eek:

[EGCC4284]

Join BALPA and ballot for strike action, simple

[jetjockey737]

egcc

ballot for strike action over what exactly...the loss of tea and coffee. Can you imagine how they would make that look in the press!!!

Not having a go, i agree with you, but from a practical standpoint I think it may prove quite difficult....Contract captains on the other hand, that may work as a reason!!

[Cyberstreak]

Well, then you're up in arms soon. They are coming.
Whoever is not a Balpa member yet, this is your last chance to
make a difference. And no excuses not to join please, there aren't
any that are serious enough.

CS

[stakeknife]

I agree, guys and girls, no matter what your opinion on BALPA, it is the only collective medium we have so join up and and lets drive the wooden footed one outta town before it is too late.

[JPHIL68]

And just a question but do you have holidays in jluly and in august at easy this year:suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect:

[ZBMAN]

And just a question but do you have holidays in jluly and in august at easy this yearhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gifhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/cwm13.gif

:E You are well informed my friend, very well informed:E

[clanger32]

I'm not particularly into 'bashing' anyone, even if their manner is a bit *ahem* suspect, however I did just [in a moment of boredom] decide to check up on FCs history.
The following thread is the first the search facility shows her as having posted on....http://www.pprune.org/spanish-forum/265021-airmed-valencia.html
Reading through this, we can see that in early March 2007, FC was unclear where to go and start ab initio training, whereas by November 2007, she had started training "somewhere else". So, given average integrated course time of around 15 months, EVEN if she had researched (assuming she did research!) and found another flight school AND been able to start less than a month later she would only have graduated between July 2008 and January 2009. And this at a time when certainly in the UK there was about a four month wait before you could hope to start an integrated course.....I know, given I started in Aug 07.

Draw your own conclusions whether graduating in July 08 would have seen her able to get onto any ATP scheme with EZY, or whether that ratifies anything.

FC - genuinely not trying to shoot you down, hell - I'm newly qualified with no hope of a job currently [or more precisely, back in my old job, thankfully and earning a nice sum] - so I know what it's like, but might help your credibility if you explained these discrepancies...

[HighHeeled-FA]

clanger32,

the discrepancies were explained.

Her boyfriend's the training Captain! :p

[Centreline747]

I've been in this industry too long to get involved with a slagging match, albeit very amusing, so come on now all of you - enough is enough. :=
Leave the poor girl alone.

But then again maybe she should be known as 'Lying Clara' :E:E

Rgds

CL747

[CarbHeatIn]

Absolutely priceless!

Watching you lot get wound up by a phantom internet poster (FlyingClara). Do carry on though, it’s far more entertaining than the rest of the same old drivel being discussed here

Phantom being the operative word :ok:

[flipster]

Wot! Is she an F4 driver as well?

[Centreline747]

Come on then Clara, we're waiting; keep the entertainment going ;) ;)

[one post only!]

Just think Kick, if you are lucky it might be your turn soon!

Although rather than some hot little spanish girl I am convinced "she" will turn out to be some short portly manager from H89 with a slight hygiene issue out to try and con the troops into a reduction of T&C's by making it clear that if we don't accept it there are lots of people desperate to!

Maybe not what you really want!!! You can just picture the moment as "she" shouts SHOW ME THE BONUS, SHOW ME THE BONUS. Passion killer or what!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

short portly manager from H89 with a slight hygiene issue

I can think of a few training captains in scouseland who might go for that mate. In fact there are probably a few SFOs aswell!

:}:eek:

[green-dot-speed]

1 year in the holding pool now.....I am wondering why they made so many assessments last year...

Happy landings
G.D.S.

[vega130]

Being in the holding pool for almost a year as SFO and my present contract expiring in July...not a nice situation to cope with!! Maybe my expectation for Easy were a bit too high? :confused:

[The Flying Cokeman]

Green dot,

A year ago EZY was expecting to upgrade 150 captains and recruit +400 copilots for 2009, unfortunately things changed quickly afterwards :\

[Doug the Head]

Maybe my expectation for Easy were a bit too high? :confused:Too high? Nope, they were not low enough! :hmm:

[seasexsun]

I also know 2 guys that have been waiting for a long time now. They see 200 hours CTC cheap cadets taking their jobs, and that make them mad :rolleyes:

[captplaystation]

Only two things in life smell like fish. . . . . . and one of them is fish :D

Have to ask the TC boyfriend what the other one is ;)

[JPHIL68]

No com from easy for us in the holding pool so you know what to do?

tell at all you r friends to take ba or af or another airline for holidays or buisnees but not easy:mad:

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

I know it's frustrating for us hold pool types, however surely it's better if more people, not less, fly Ezy, the busier the airline, they may need more crews and who knows, even us lowly TRSS may, just MAY get a look in. One's thing for sure, if Ezy pax figures drop as you suggest, there ain't any hope whatsoever.

[Akrapovic]

tell at all you r friends to take ba or af or another airline for holidays or buisnees but not easy:mad:

Nice attitude from someone in the hold pool.

I'll expect you'll soon change your tune should you get an offer in the post anytime soon . . . .

[JPHIL68]

You still believe in santa claus men:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E:E

[TurboJ]

tell at all you r friends to take ba or af or another airline for holidays or buisnees but not easy

With comments like that I think you should loose your place in the hold pool to a more worthy candidate.

Its not a very orange comment to make. Strikes of petulant child ! :cool:

[JPHIL68]

Loose my place in the holding pool.......and not a very ange comment....men are you dreaming too...norecruitement from holding pool for this year and then after 24 months ...go to garbage....
easyjet looks like a big ig joke at this time and to behonest i really don t knw if it s a good place to work for the future.....

your friendly napoleon bonaparte:E:E:E

[Akrapovic]

easyjet looks like a big ig joke at this time and to behonest i really don t knw if it s a good place to work for the future.....

That's obviously your opinion Phil, yet looking at the number of threads regarding applications for other airlines, maybe there's a reason why you're not getting any job offers?

If you PM me your details, I'm sure recruitment will be interested in your comments, and I'll see fit get you taken off the Hold Pool list to create a space for someone that sees their future at easyJet.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Or, just to be sure, we'll remove all frenchmen born in 1968...

[JPHIL68]

My lovely english friend's for your informations i'm not more interested by easyjet regarding the poor HR department...ad to be complely honest i m completly disappointed with easy so i have a great life at this moment and i made a different choice ... so stay in your isle and if you like the orange it s your choice but try to be realistic.....so enjoy the sun in england with no holidays with easy :ok::ok::ok:


end of messages regarding easy, goodluck for non uk peoples in the pool:ok:

[Akrapovic]

i have a great life at this moment and i made a different choice

Hmmm, I suppose McDonald's aren't bad employers . . good for you.

Remember, it's a 'Royale' with Cheese on the continent and if you stay all day, you get ALL the stars.

Bon chance Phil!

[nuageblanc]

Why Mac Donalds ? Why are we stupid when we tell the truth ? Jean-Phillippe has been very badly treated with the orange low cost, what he says is hard for you guys, but he is talking about true facts.
I have always suggested to go to main airlines (BA, AF, LH, etc...), this is real aviation and we have food and coffee and water and sodas all the time, as much as we want :ok:



Bonne chance

Try to learn French properly instead of showing us your lack of knowledge, bloody rosbif :oh:



Guillaume :O

[Akrapovic]

While I sympathise with Phil's position, times are tough, and unfortunately the hold pool is rather full at this time. Be patient and everyone gets there in the end.

What I find wholly unacceptable, is Phil's attitude to a company he sits in the hold pool with. Publically encouraging people to boycott an airline who (at one stage I presume) he wanted to join - (it's no walk in the park to get in with easyJet) just serves to outline that his attitude when faced with a situation that doesn't suit him, is hardly becoming of a professional pilot.

Good luck to all those swimming right now, but Phil's approach to a rather long dip in the pool is akin to throwing his toys out of the preverbial pram.

[BTW Nuageblanc, don't pick me up on my spelling when you can't even spell 'McDonalds' correctly!)

[Doug the Head]

tell at all you r friends to take ba or af or another airline for holidays or buisnees but not easy

What I find wholly unacceptable, is Phil's attitude to a company he sits in the hold pool with. Publically encouraging people to boycott an airline who (at one stage I presume) he wanted to join - (it's no walk in the park to get in with easyJet) just serves to outline that his attitude when faced with a situation that doesn't suit him, is hardly becoming of a professional pilot.

Akrapovic, you obviously have no idea about either EZY or it's 'stafftravel.' Even a lot of employees don't even fly their own airline, because the competition is cheaper. Go figure... :rolleyes:

Hmmm, I suppose McDonald's aren't bad employers . . good for you. So then why are you so desperately trying to defend the 'McDonalds of Aviation?' They will just treat you like sh!t, squeeze as many block hours out of you as legally possible, and after 5-10 years when you're burned out, they'll have no problem to replace you with the next happy-to-flip-burgers eager beaver who happens to be in the holding pool. Just like that famous Scottish restaurant... ;)

Loyalty and respect are supposed to be a mutual thing, in EZY it's a one way street.

[nuageblanc]

Nuageblanc, don't pick me up on my spelling when you can't even spell 'McDonalds' correctly


sorry mate, I can't....however I can spell La Tour d'Argent, Le Bristol or Taillevent... but nous n'avons pas les même valeurs ;)

[Akrapovic]

Well, I've never seen such a bunch of bitter and twisted job seekers on one thread . . .

Good luck chaps - I think you'll need it :ok:

[Gary Lager]

Who says we're all job seekers?

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

In the context of this thread and more recent posts, I can't see anything wrong with Akrapovic's statements. The chap who advocates flying with anyone other than Easyjet, wasn't saying it due to the economics of it, or altruism to the poor other airlines, he was clearly being petulant cos Ezy haven't called him forward yet. Rattle and pram?? What kind of attitude is that?! :ugh::ugh:

Yes staff travel may be pants, and I know conditions are far from perfect at Ezy at the moment. However I for one would hope to get called forward tomorrow. Having done over six years on a couple of heavy TP types, now faced with at best big personal upheaval with the current mob, or a very real chance of redundancy!

So forgive me for not agreeing with our friend Phil's point of view re: sod Easyjet, but it smacks of great immaturity and I WANT IT NOW OR ILL SCWEAM AND SCWEAM AND SCWEAM attitude. Well tough tits pal, there are some of us who would quite happily go tomorrow, and no, I'm not straight out of flight school looking for a jet or nothing else, I've done a reasonable amount of time on TP's, and now faced with an uncertain future at my airline, so if you don't want anything to do with Ezy, just tell them and leave the rest to those that do.

[ZBMAN]

I've done a reasonable amount of time on TP's, and now faced with an uncertain future at my airline

Thing is, all new recruits are being recruited on temporary summer ONLY contracts, so I fear the days of eJ being a long term employer are gone never to return. Unless the expansion starts again - which I doubt.

Your future may be uncertain in your current airline, but if you are recruited by eJ, it will be certain: you'll be looking for a job this winter.

Unfortunately, and it is very sad, eJ are turning into something ugly and we (the unions) have to stop it. For the sake of you guys.

[Doug the Head]

I can't see anything wrong with Akrapovic's statements. The chap who advocates flying with anyone other than Easyjet, wasn't saying it due to the economics of it, or altruism to the poor other airlines, he was clearly being petulant cos Ezy haven't called him forward yet. Rattle and pram?? What kind of attitude is that?!It's the same attitude like trying to take away crew meals, seasonal commands and direct entry captains. It's because of this naive display of Orange loyalty people by like Akrapovic's, that T&C's are going backwards at lightning speed. BTW, where is NSF? :ouch:

[Akrapovic]

Not so fast Doug,

My point was aimed solely at Phil's comments regarding remarks he made and my shock at how someone who is in the hold pool for easyJet, can go around encouraging others to boycott easyJet flights because they aren't employing him. This guy is not an employee, yet your seem to be drifting into areas that are employee-related, which is not where I'm coming from.

I've made no remarks as to the T&C debate we (the union) and those at H89 are having at this time.

All you're seeking to do is put words in my mouth, by lobbing me in with the non-union, take whatever they throw at us minority who seek to screw things up for the rest of us, which simply is not me I'm afraid.

If you want a discussion on Terms and Conditions, I will happily continue this on the appropriate private threads. Iˇm as staunch as the next member on the issues raised (internally).

[Doug the Head]

Dude, his comments are just very typical of the 'get rich (i.e. command/jet time etc) quick' mentality that seems to have taken over this entire industry. Grab what you can and immediately retaliate if things don't go as planned.

Management plays this game very well, more bonuses for themselves yet when pilots moan about seasonal commands they retaliate by taking away crew food, so why not be consistent and 'pay them back with the same currency?' Besides, you're not exactly missing out on any frequent flier miles, as most LoCo's don't even have any frequent flier programs. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth kind of thing. :}

Loyalty, whether it's being naive and considering EZY as a career airline (hahahaha!) or flying EZY in your spare time, is a thing of the past and will not be rewarded by any present or future management. Just like the "can you please please please go into discretion because we have no more standbys?" will not be rewarded if you need a favour or an off day. Loyalty is for suckers, for idiots who keep on trying to bite the carrot that is being dangled in front of them.

BTW, it's funny that you happen to have mentioned McDonalds, because I also mentioned it a few months ago in another thread when I talked about the McDonaldization (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/300460-easyjet-holding-pool-28.html#post4737319) of aviation. Having a pilot license and working for a LoCo = having a top restaurant chef flipping burgers. Sad but true. :(

Regarding the 'private' forum. Well...I doubt if it's really 'private' with management being issued usernames and access, and what about the people that have left, but still have valid accounts? What world are we living in when a manager of a >150 aircraft airline spends time chatting (speading propaganda!) on a pilot's rumours and news website debating certain issues, but does not have time to expeditiously reply to personal emails or return phone calls? :eek:

The only thing 'private' about that forum is that new wannabees will not get the full picture of what EZY is really like, so in that way, the forum is playing right into the management's hands. Let the whole world know how EZY treats it's pilots, maybe then people will stop applying (or considering it a career airline) and things will improve.

[mikehammer]

Doug
I read your comments with great interest. It is true to say that Easy is not really a viable option as a 'career airline' for prospective new employees. However, working our way 'up' from turbo prop ranks, perhaps it serves a purpose, selfish though that undeniably is. If some one like me were to join, it would be to get some experience and move on. Management either cannot see that this affects their workforce, or do not care.

[Doug the Head]

Management either cannot see that this affects their workforce, or do not care.Why should they care? Why should it be a problem for management? Basically all TRSS F/O's are 'paying for themselves.' It'll cost the company next to nothing to train them, and if after x amount of years an F/O or Captain leaves then they just call the next person in the holding pool. Needless to say that this new/replacement person will be working for an even lower salary, or will be a seasonal commander.

If you don't believe me, or want to call me "negative," then just look at the long term trend vector and some of the current issues: seasonal commands and people like Flying_Clara desperate to pay for 200 hours on type etc. The company will keep on pushing and stretching the envelop untill they get things done their way, just like the way they introduced local contracts and just like the way they started TRSS a few years ago. Now those last two (local contracts and TRSS) are more or less standard if you want to work for EZY. In a twisted way, TRSS even looks great (pay 23k for a type, 3 months probation and then a fixed contract) when compared to what has been on the table more recently: pay for your type, pay 10k for 200 hours and then f*ck off.

That's why I've been saying for a long time and that is that LoCo's are not a career airline. It's simply not a part of their business model. Why pay someone a decent salary and pension with an increasing risk of sickness as people grow older, if you can replace them with fresh (and cheaper) cannon fodder on a more flexible contract?

The future? My best guess is that (just like McPuke's) there will be more and more seasonal workers in the LoCo airline industry, giving the company even greater flexibility and an even bigger wedge to drive between pilots from different countries and bases. A small, core, workforce (with all kinds of A-scale, B-scale etc contracts) complemented by a growing number of contractors which are a combination of either beginners/turboprop drivers and more experienced (i.e. type rated) pilots returning from overseas, sick of living in the desert/China/India. Then just add a 'store manager' (base fuehrer!) to monitor the workforce (and keepin' everyone honest :E) and the analogy is complete.

Oh, and please don't start now about how "flying an aircraft is so much more different and difficult than flipping burgers." Most of it is 'monkey see, monkey do', and with the advent of the MPL, anyone with a normal IQ, normal coordination skills will be able to become a pilot in the near future.

The great thing about a 737 and an A320 rating is that it's relatively easy to find work with such a rating. Yet it's also the Achilles heel, because there are (and will be!) so many rated people out there looking for work, and most of those 73's and A320's are flown by LoCo's. :ugh:

[Wingswinger]

Most of it is 'monkey see, monkey do', and with the advent of the MPL, anyone with a normal IQ, normal coordination skills will be able to become a pilot in the near future.


I think you should rephrase that, Doug. People with normal IQ and normal co-ordination skills already do hold down jobs on a flight deck. Whether or not they can be accurately described as pilots as opposed to button-pushers is a matter of opinion. Some can be; some can't. We only find out when matters take a turn for the worse and they are required actually to fly the aircraft themselves and to act and think quickly.

Safety in aviation has been bought with the blood of thousands. The people who control us have never been anywhere near the coal-face and do not fully appreciate the risks they are "managing". I fear the holes in the cheese slices are beginning to line up. Ryanair sails very close to the wind. It could easily have had two hull losses in recent times; it has had the luck of the Irish. It seems that's what some of our high-priced helps want us to emulate.

[Stan Woolley]

Wingswinger

Most companies have their moments.

I don't think Ryanair have had one up to 440kts yet?

[Doug the Head]

All I meant was that it's not rocket science to fly an aircraft and airlines know this.

I fear the holes in the cheese slices are beginning to line up.That's why you are there! To prevent it from happening, and God forbid if it does, to take the blame! (Never mind if it completely wears you out after 20-30 years flying 900 hours/year, doing 20 min turn-arounds without decent crew food. That's just a small price to pay in order to safeguard the bonuses of our corporate masters.) :ok:

Companies will have legally covered their @sses and the authorities... Well, the authorities (i.e. politicians) are untouchable and will do the same thing as now during this whole credit crisis: do some window dressing by blaming someone else (the bonus culture of greedy managers comes in very conveniently at times like these ;)), raise fees/taxes and promise even more rules and regulations that won't change a thing. :p

[kriskross]

Yes, Stan, but they did have passengers on.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Hi Doug et al. I have been unavoidably detained elsewhere but am always up for a bit of discussion! I must disagree with your increasingly jaded perspective of things. These are not easy time for any airline right now and easyJet is no exception. Without a doubt there are some extremely unsrupulous individuals who make up our management team who would leave us in the street with nothing. Nonetheless, there is an increasingly vibrant union fighting them head on and we are making some progress. Your characterisation of the private forum is not correct - the only manager who has access is P J Smallwood and he appears as himself when he contributes (he has not done so for months to my knowledge and may have had the hard word from above to no longer participate).

I have worked at easyJet for more than 5 years now and still thoroughly enjoy my working day. The new 75/25 contract is extremely attractive and I intend to take full advantage of it in order to spend more time with Mrs Fletcher once the offspring have departed. The contract captain battle appears to have been won although it looks like temporary commands are coming in. What happens at the end of the summer season is anyone's guess as no one yet knows the take-up of the 75/25 option. As one who has worked for 2 turboprop and 3 jet airlines (plus Her Majesty before that), easyJet is the best place I have worked. There is barely an airline in the world that offers the range of destinations that Gatwick does for pilots. We fly virtually brand new aircraft and I personally love the Airbus. There are still new aircraft arriving every month and right now this is about as safe an airline to be at as any in terms of job security.

Are there problems? Absolutely! Is everything perfect? Absolutely not! Nonetheless, despite a voracious Flt Ops Director who wishes to leave us in the street with nothing, the day-to-day life of an easyJet pilot is far from bad. There are better paid airlines, but there are many worse paid. I am up for the fight with management if the need arises, but I am not up for making problems that do not yet exist. My glass is half-full and there is much work to be done. I feel very sorry for those who have not been offered jobs with us who might have previously been dead-cert candidates. The summer contracts are likely to be with us from now on, but there will still be opportunities for permanent employment once the summer/winter establishment has been sorted out. I do not pretend it is perfect but it is far from disastrous. Anyone who has been in this industry for any time knows this is a game of Musical Chairs, and the name of the game is to be on the strongest chairs when the music stops. Right now, this is still one of the best chairs to be sat on, as the music has well and truly stopped!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Ah, Norman (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/AlexandreLouvre.jpg)! Perfect syntax, glorious spelling, twisted allegiances and stunning prose. When the penny finally drops that those BLAPA fiends (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html) are no good for you, please do come and work for us at Ryanair. We've been known to take the odd ex-crab, and two of your former Orange men are now Senior TRE's at our facility at East Nowhere. They tells dreadful stories of high dudgeon in Orange Land!

Get with the program, Norman. We're looking for captains.....just not at the NRN (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=apr&story=gen-en-220409-2) base.

[Right Touch]

Leo me old china ,god save us all if Easy becomes such a bad place to work we would want to join your outfit , tho at the moment this would appear to be the wish of our esteemed Flt ops Director :mad:

[HundredPercentPlease]

Leo (http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/bowfishing-4.jpg),

My how your observational standards are slipping. NSF is simply not qualified; even if chance were to land him on a snakes head, I can assure you he would grip onto the neck to save himself from that slide down to the bottom.

"I'm surviving, if it gets too bad I'll just leave". NSF would simply fail to meet this requirement. His care for others, attention to what is right and wrong, and use of the collective to ensure that the hare-brained short-term greedy little scheme to benefit a manager or two is resisted in order to preserve the long term success of the company would result in a quick rejection at the first Ryanair hurdle.

"Balpa ruins airlines". NSF, along with most lucid pilots, realise that a professional organisation is essential to prevent individual employee abuse and safety violations and when working well can help provide solutions to corporate problems that may be more effective than the ones presented by our aforementioned quick-buck managers. It appears that if you are found guilty of just considering a professional organisation at Ryanair, then you are penalised. Once again, NSF would fail to meet the required level of myopia.

There is hardly a pilot at eJ who does not carry copies of the reams of extra-curricular work done by NSF. How does this altruistic attitude fit in with the Ryanair model?

Leo, keep looking after yourself. I'm sure with your own tender care, you'll be fine. But, with respect, please can you desist from the invitations into your own egotistic little world.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

My goodness, how polite we are all becoming when it comes to slinging mud these days!:)

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Leo - a pleasure to hear from the man who does for pilots's rights what lockjaw does for conversation. I am nonetheless touched you would consider me as suitable for work with the blessed Michael. They say you can never say never but if you could you would! I dare to dream of a day when BALPA members are in the majority at Ryanair, and that the affront to employment practice that masquerades as 'efficiency' will be finally put to the sword. By the way, sad to see the demise of Weeze International or whatever RAF Laarbruch is called these days. Mrs Fletcher and I lived in Weeze for several years and have many happy memories of the place. I hope that common sense prevails and the blessed Michael manages to avoid the goose step out of the area completely.

HundredPercentPlease - thanks for your generous support. We at the Orange Empire are facing challenges none of us ever expected. Nonetheless, these challenges are there to be overcome. Alas, for as long as the sleeping giant of BALPA members choose to remain comotose at Ryanair, the longer the outrage of safety violations and industrial malpractice will continue. The only thing that separates easyJet from Ryanair is the presence of repsonsible union membership who represent the best interests of the pilot community. That is a thinner line of protection than many of us like to consider. I intend to do my bit to ensure that easyJet benefits all employees and not just a few.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

Norman, my dear, as usual you miss the point almost entirely. Whilst I find it a repellent curiosity that you should have pinned your colours to the mast of the BLAPA (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html) club, I don't for a moment wonder that you want it just like it was in the Officer's Mess at RAF Laarbruch and elsewhere, just like in the good old days, but life is about change and those who don't adapt, old boy, perish.

Now then. Clearly, your Mr. Harrison is testing the boundaries of your put up ability. Imagine the wickedness of nicking your paid-for tea and coffee, and delaying the god-given career paths of "senior" first officers, whatever they are. He wishes to know just how far you can be pushed without flexing those junior, unused muscles of implicit threat to strike you've decorated Orange Land with since you, rather foolishly in my view, permitted the rats of BLAPA (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html) into your Orange hen house.

The thing about unions is that they institutionalise mediocrity, and there is no greater apotheosis of mediocrity than BLAPA. Your Andy seeks to test the limits of this mediocrity so that he has boundaries within which to operate, since the BLAPA (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html) club have been forced upon him by you and those lesser mortals who look to you for guidance in such matters. Go on, Norman, you show 'em! Goad the troops into a summer of strikes, over...what was it again? Oh yes, that's right, tea and stale cheese sandwiches, and see how rapidly the SLF abandon ship to the yellow and the blue where strikes are, thanks be to God, out of the question.

It's really very funny, when you get right down to it. BLAPA are salivating at the prospect of all those extra thousand pounds a year from Ryanair pilots by offering them "dignity and respect". Last time I checked, dignity and respect came from within, the very same qualities becoming rapidly absent at Easyjet as you dance the BLAPA (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html) dance of the stale sandwich strike.

Do let me know how it turns out for you, won't you Norman?

[Binder]

Ryanair Sector Pay.

Not wishing to detract from the 'mud slinging' but could somebody clarify the Ryanair sector pay arrangements.

Is it true that it is paid from an off shore account tax free?

Is this approved by the inland revenue?

Do Ryanair/Ryanair pilots view this as a tax avoidance measure?

Just curious!

Binder

[Doug the Head]

LeoHairy@ss (a.k.a. MOL),

You could be correct and unfortunately EZY might soon be as sh!te as RyanScare regarding treatment of it's employees, so save your breath for cooling your porridge...

Tick...tock...tick...tock...

[Desk-pilot]

Seems to me that the argument in favour of union recognition is won:

The only UK airline that has CUT pilot pay continually and successively in recent years is Ryanair
The only airline that refuses to give proper employment contracts to anyone who joins is Ryanair
The only airline that has enforced unpaid leave without negotiation is Ryanair
The only airline that uses badly photocopied approach plates in the cockpit is Ryanair
The only airline that has negotiated a special arrangement on working hours to allow its pilots to fly more hours than those of any other major UK/Irish airline is Ryanair
The only airline that makes crews pay for food on board, uniforms, sim renewals etc etc is Ryanair

And the only major UK airline that doesn't have BALPA recognition is...... oh I think I might leave some of you to work that one out.

Desk-pilot (Who has absolutely no connection with BALPA other than as a member who pays his subscriptions and is bloody glad they are there)

[ed_boy]

Who are Ryanair?

[autobrake3]

How predictable it is that the pious pontification from Ryanairs finest should eminate whenever BALPA is mentioned as a positive attribute. Quite apart from maintaining the employment conditions of professional employees, BALPA also has a healthy interest in flight safety either directly or indirectly by lending support to pilots. The list of Ryanair incidents over recent history is quite long. Could it be perhaps, that unmoderated management pressure has anything to do with it ?

[flap15]

Every day that I fly for the big orange machine I am amazed at how often, when time permits, and I say good bye to our passengers there are many who say how pleasent it was and so much nicer than Ryanair. There are those that will never fly with them and those that are fed up with all the hidden charges. So time will tell.

[seasexsun]

what a pathetic thread, my d.ick is bigger than ryanair's :bored:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I can only stand and applaud Desk-pilot's extremely accurate grasp of Ryanair's truly desperate emloyment practices. It nonetheless astounds me that a man of Leo's obvious intelligence is unable to recognise the direct relationship between there being no BALPA recognition at Ryanair and the pitiful tale of abuses catalogued above. Ah yes - we should be just grateful that we have jobs rather than worry about minor details like whether we are hungry or not. Indeed, for humble employees to have any ideas at all about what may be best for themselves or the company they work for would represents a terrifying combination of anarchy and ignorance. After all, the ideas and actions of our bosses should of course be beyond question. To quote that great philanthropist Josef Stalin - “Ideas are far more powerful than guns. We don't allow our enemies to have guns, why should we allow them to have ideas?”

It is at times like this I recognise more than ever the enormous benefits of having BALPA representation. As long as the only people eligible to join BALPA are human beings then there will always be problems. Nonetheless, I can think of nothing worse than leaving my fate in the hands of a few bounty-hunting managers, whose only ambition is to stagger out the door of Hangar 89, their pockets bulging under the weight of their employees' money.

As can be seen from the enormous number of disappointed applicants to easyJet - we are one of the most sought after companies in Europe to work for. EasyJet will emerge strong from this recession, and due almost entirely to BALPA's efforts to defend its pilots' futures, will actually still be an airline of choice afterwards.

[ROSCO328]

I certainly hope so Norman as right now I am disgusted at our management. It saddens me to say that everyday that passes at the mo EJ is looking less of a career airline.:{

[320seriesTRE]

Gentlemen,

I am finishing my flying career in the next 14 months and the only thing that has been constant throughout has been change.

An airline does not offer careers, it offers employment. It facilitates an individual's ambitions. Most of you who are disappointed are at fault, because you having being looking outwards rather than inwards for success.

We do not work for easyJet, etc. We work for ourselves. We are highly trained professionals who work for our families, and our own development.

easyJet happens to be that medium at present. What ever we do not like we can and should change.

Those of you who in the year 2009 believe in the good old airline rewards, must have been absent for the last 20 years.

It is my licence, and as such I offer it to the highest bidder. I believe in BALPA as a collective Union, however it's success lies within it's members and not in the name.

If we are not willing to fight, if we are not willing to unite, we shall always be divided.

I say to Mr Corr and Mr. Harrison, I am here to make the airline safe and efficient, not make money for you. You were hired for that. If you cannot do it, do not blame me, get out and leave. The shareholders will find someone who knows and can lead the company.

We gentlemen do not sell tickets, nor do we make pricing decisions, nor do we buy and hedge fuel. We are only on the pointy side to keep the operation safe and efficient.

Fuel saving initiatives, and efficiency measures are not there to make profits for the airlines, they are there to save money and probably provide bonuses.

The management is now relying on our discretion to make money. This to me shows that they have no clue, they have lost the plot, they are not up to the task.

Enough said about the incompetent lot. Stop whining and get up to be heard, tell BALPA that you will fight all the way, not because your are militant but because you believe in your value, and in the unity of the pilot body, otherwise if you do not believe in yourselves take the shafting in silence.

Regards

[one post only!]

Well said.

[donthaveone]

Very well said 320TRE

[Desk-pilot]

Norman, glad that you agree - I don't work for Easy, I work for Flybe and yet we're facing very similar issues to yourselves in terms of pay freezes etc despite the fact that the company made its biggest profit ever last year and is on target to still make a profit in the current financial year due in no small part to its hard working and relatively lowly paid crews.

It does sadden me that terms and conditions are not what they were in this profession. It is a challenging career, it's very demanding and exacting at times and the work pattern can be relentless and fatiguing and can have a big impact on family life. I think all of that is deserving of a reasonable level of remuneration and I think collectively via BALPA is the only way pilots can represent themselves to stem the continual downward spiral.

I was astounded to learn that the 28 year old plumber who fitted our dishwasher and works for the local electricity board earns £10 000 per year more than I do as a First Officer flying a commercial airliner - that shows you how far things have gone.

Wishing you all clear skies,

Desk-pilot

[nuageblanc]

I was astounded to learn that the 28 year old plumber who fitted our dishwasher and works for the local electricity board earns £10 000 per year more than I do as a First Officer flying a commercial airliner - that shows you how far things have gone.

Why the hell do you want to earn more than your 28 years old plumber ?? After all this poor man has to put his hands on your **** every time you call him to fixe your toilets...is it easier than doing 99% of work in autopilot before disconnecting it and do a crap landing in manual ? I don't think so.
The problem is not the plumber, but the low cost companies.

[Akrapovic]

I was astounded to learn that the 28 year old plumber who fitted our dishwasher and works for the local electricity board earns £10 000 per year more than I do as a First Officer flying a commercial airliner

Working for Flybe - that wouldn't 'astound' me . . . .

[Right Way Up]

320seriesTRE,

Excellent post. :D:D

[Aldente]

"two of your former Orange men are now Senior TRE's at our facility at East Nowhere. They tells dreadful stories of high dudgeon in Orange Land!"

Leo, perhaps they might like to now tell tales of their reduced training allowance at Ryanair ?

From Ryanair Pilot 4 Year Agreement (2008) amended and extended to 2013 :-

"Training allowance payable pro-rate for designated training months only - Maximum 3 no-training months notified to individuals at least one month in advance"


Out of the frying pan into the fire maybe ? .......



;)

[Permafrost_ATPL]

The problem is not the plumber, but the low cost companies.

The problem is global free market economy :-)

Ah nuageblanc, how you must miss the good old days of nationalised monopolies where unions guaranteed fat salaries regardless of performance :ok:

P

[angelorange]

Wow! Flybe must be paying too much if you can afford to hire a plumber!

DIY is cheaper if you know what you're doing and don't mind getting hands dirty

That said i think Turbo prop pilots are under paid

[Desk-pilot]

I think you're right the problem isn't the plumber but the free market and doing a job that too many people want to do creating oversupply in the labour market.

Re: the plumber he's actually a bloke in our road and he's doing it as a favour for well below normal rates - £15 an hour in fact so even on a Flybe salary it seemed a better option than letting me loose on pipes and risking water coming in from the ceiling. I am however tiling, painting, floor laying etc in order to keep the costs down. Mind you if I was on a decent salary like many of you here I'd certainly be using my concessions to spend a week in Mauritius and come back when it's all been done!!

Desk-pilot

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

And by the way Leo, given that "two of your former Orange men are now Senior TRE's at our facility at East Nowhere", I would love to hear their view on leaving now. It is inconceivable to me that anyone who left easyJet in the past, when it was significantly worse than it is now, could hand-on-heart say they are glad they work for Ryanair. I realise that internally people have to justify their actions - as people who leave their wives for a trollop try and do for years afterwards, but inwardly knowing they have really blown it! Ryanair is certainly the trollop of the airline industry - loud, no class, and absolutely no shame!

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

I'm confused, Deskpilot. If you want to be a plumber, and paid as one, then be a plumber. If you choose to remain as a Fly Be first officer, however, and yet bitch about it though you admit to being a member of BLAPA, it rather begs the question just what is it you expect them to do for you at a regional airline flying light aircraft? Ask your masters at BLAPA Central Command (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/home/public/en_gb) what they think of your relative worth. Prepare yourself for a hurtful rebuke!

If you're serious about wanting to earn more, come fly for us at Ryanair, presuming you're sufficiently capable, and I don't doubt for a moment that you are. When you do, though, you'll be yanking in around £7000 monthly as a contract floating first officer. More than enough, I'd have thought, to afford even the most expensive plumber, or perhaps even a better house that doesn't require one in the first place?

Sounds to me that you'd be well advised to remember that the view of Ryanair from within, is at vast variance to the view from without, even before filtering out the endless morass of BLAPA bullshyte.

All the best,

Leo.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

loud, no class, and absolutely no shame!

projection |prəˈjek sh ən|
noun

• the unconscious transfer of one's own desires or emotions to another person : we protect the self by a number of defense mechanisms, including repression and projection.

Come now, Norman, you disappoint me. This sort of cheap, throw-away line is beneath you, but I'll forgive you given the hour and in respect of what you're more than capable of outside of, shall we say, Claret O'Clock?

Good night, and God bless you.

Leo.

[S44]

L H-C... £7000 a month working for FR as an FO?? I presume thats Gross?

[captplaystation]

Yep, gross. . . . exaggeration ! ! come on Leo, how many are getting that ? before or after tax, and tax (regretably I agree ) is a bit of an issue for the Brookfielders these days.

[veetwo]

Don't forget about the forced unpaid leave that's happening at Ryanair. Won't be earning £7000 a month then will they?

V2

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

This is getting out of hand, and it was supposed to be an Easyjet thread. Out of respect for that I'll discontinue here and start again elsewhere. Norman, you're cordially invited.
Leo.

[mikehammer]

Thank goodness Leo is gone:

...respect of what you're more than capable of outside of..

OF what does he speak, I wonder.

[Stan Woolley]

NSF

I would love to hear their view on leaving now. It is inconceivable to me that anyone who left easyJet in the past, when it was significantly worse than it is now, could hand-on-heart say they are glad they work for Ryanair.

You go on to imply that even if they did say they were happier at Ryanair it couldn't possibly be genuine. How patronising.

What amazes me is how superior easyjet consider themselves.

Are you listening NORM? I prefer Ryanair. Absolutely no contest.

[kick the tires]

Stan, sometime ago your posting inferred that you work as a ground handler.........

Have you changed jobs?

[Stan Woolley]

ktt

Sorry to disappoint. Suggest you read the post from a new perspective.

Professional pilot since 1983.

Interesting that anytime anyone defends Ryanair there is some sort of implication that they are not what they say or defective in some way. How could any 'normal' person prefer them over easyJet? Incredible isn't it! :ok:

BTW
What about the hundreds of other posts I have made from a pilots point of view? Clearly they don't 'fit the profile'. :ugh:

[jb5000]

First time for everything I suppose.