V AUS How is it going??

[Higs]

I am supprised there have been no post as to V Aus inital operations.. Anyone in the know? :sad:

[sthaussiepilot]

There have been a few people talking about this in different threads... Also give it at least a month or more... You can hardly give an accurate future comment on vaus... Pure speculation otherwise

[ernestkgann]

I'm enjoying it! Nice to be flying after a long time in the sim. The hotel in LA is nice and the aeroplane is great. The company is working hard to deliver a good product and working environment.

[Rob D]

"working hard to deliver a good product and working environment"

that's a bit of a novelty!

[Higs]

Thanks ernestkgann, nice to hear that.:)

[Bootstrap1]

How many flights a week is it doing? I have seen it parked at Sydney 3 times this week, I thought it would be flying its butt off.

[forgetabowdit]

I can't directly answer your qn, suffice to say it is about 3 times a week with one aircraft full time. Goes daily as more aircraft arrive. The reason you have seen 'it' sitting around in various places, is that there is now more than one that has been delivered. The second one did LA yesterday so you probably saw VH-VOZ sitting around.

[Van Gough]

I'm enjoying it! Nice to be flying after a long time in the sim. The hotel in LA is nice and the aeroplane is great. The company is working hard to deliver a good product and working environment.

Its so refreshing to see a nice positive post on pprune for a change as opposed to the usual slagging matches :ok:

[inandout]

3 times aweek to LA, goes daily on 20th, Brisbane starts 8th next month. Then Melb 15th Sept then ...J...... and....H....and...K.... well can't say yet.

[walaper]

Bootstrap1 "IT" could be one of a couple or three on turn around. You should open you eyes and realize that EK SQ and others have A/C that spend several hours sitting on the ground. Suppose a conspiracy would be more enticing to you though.

[Howard Hughes]

Jerusalem, Honiara and Kalumburu?:E

Wal your observations re EK & SQ may be correct, but the difference is they don't have HALF their fleet sitting on the ground!;)

[Mr. Hat]

Julia creek, hughenden and kingaroy.

[2b2]

advertising $1799 to London via LA the other day.

Until recently you were struggling to get just to LA for that!

About time you didn't have to pay more to get to LA than Europe.

[Wingspar]

Sorry about thread drift but I wonder why Vaus isn't doing the HKG flights instead of Vatlantic?
I would of thought that would of been a nice earner for them. Certainly need the cash at the moment.

[43Inches]

My understanding is that Virgin Atlantic is 49% SQ owned so not going to be swapping profitable routes any time soon. It is also the reason the brand is V Australia, not Virgin Australia.

[greenslopes]

V Oz need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to improve VB's share price and ultimate survival...................

How exasperating!

[Shazz-zaam]

Any idea of the Passenger loads?

[HappyBandit]

Mullah....

I get it!!! I am with Hughes on this one.....the cost of parking aircraft in Aus international airports is one of the highest in the Southern Hemisphere if not the world (I have seen factual numbers on this). In fact an operator a few years back was nearing the curfew and because of the massive expense in parking it overnight in Sydney the company decided to fly it to NZ for the night (after dropping off the pax obviously).

So I agree.....it must be costing an absolute fortune in parking their fleet.

[halas]

Who says these certain operators don't get a special rate as they do it all the time? A one-off may be very expensive.

Good luck to the guys at V Aus.

halas

[6100]

Let me have a wild stab at this one..................

Maybe because they only have two aircraft which are already committed to daily LA's, along with the 3rd and 4th which are committed to Brisbane and Melbourne to LA.

[Wingspar]

6100

Yes, I'm aware of the bleeding obvious.

My question relates to the novel idea of not putting all your eggs in one basket.
VAtlantic are running down to HKG-SYD. I would of thought that Vaus running up to HKG would have provided both synergies and an established market. That would be a very good revenue source for the startup.
After all BG stated that one reason for the LA and Joburg is to connect the Virgin network.
Why not HKG (and yes, that would mean diverting aircraft!).

[A Comfy Chair]

Voz is an independant company.

To operate on SYD - HKG would mean they are directly competing with another Virgin carrier. It is not a particulally successful route for Virgin Atlantic either.

They are fully aware they would lose the battle, when V Atlantic can offer a far superior product, for what would be a similar price.

The USA is a market with few operators, where they can successfully brand themselves as the only alternative to Qantas.

To Hong Kong they have to compete with Virgin Atlantic, Cathay, Qantas, British Airways etc.

I think they'll stick with their current plan!

[markontop]

BA fly SYD - HKG ?

[drivabilongbalus]

Maybe someone can help me here - Saw VH-VOZ at standoff on wed 4/3 at 1500 ESST in melb. In the same spot at 1700 on thur 5/3 and again at 1200 on fri 6/3. Considering that the a/c cannot have been to the US and back within these timeframes is it operational yet? expensive billboard otherwise???

[kiwi engineer12]

drivabilongbalus

VH-VOZ is sitting in MEL waiting for the Avalon airshow. Meanwhile, VH-VPD has taken over the thrice weekly SYD-LAX runs.
Come mid March, VOZ will join VPD on the SYD-LAX route, to commence daily services.

[goddamit]

A comfy chair, have you seen the product from VA? Business class is much better I think(aesthetically) compared to atlantic. As to the others, economy is the same pitch to QF premium & only 9seats across compared to EK.

[A Comfy Chair]

Whether a not a product is the same as say Qantas, or looks better than Atlantic is largely irrelivant. They are established carriers with good codesharing to many destinations. They have the market continuing on to Europe, which is a large part of their operations, a market that Voz really can't tap into - they are mostly limited to the AUS - HK traffic.

Hong Kong is a market with much competition, and Voz will stay away from it until they are established.

After all, why not cherry pic the biggest routes with the lowest competition?

[somewhereat1l]

Syd-Hkg doesn't appear to be good for Virgin Atlantic but I was told this is because they aren't allowed to carry a full load of passengers. Something to do with getting the right to fly into Australia they agreed not to pick up full loads. This may not be true but I have heard this on several occasions from various sources. Cargo is apparently very good though. V Australia could easily do the SYD-HKG and link up with one of the 2 Virgin Atlantic flights to bring traffic from Europe.


The V Australia product is superb. The J service is taking forever due to inexperienced crews and the companies insistence that all PAX have their table laid up a la First Class. This might work in a first class cabin with 14 PAX and 3 crew but with 33 PAX and 4 crew it just takes too long. V Australia definately need to look at changing the service so that everything is delivered on a tray to speed things up. The flight departs late and people want to sleep, not wait 3 hours for the service to complete.

Economy is really rather nice. 3,3,3 seating and lovely wide seats. IFE is top notch too.

Premium economy is average with 2,4,2 seating. They really should have gone with 2,3,2 like Virgin Atlantic.

[greenslopes]

Me thinks bias on this thread!

[VS-LHRCSA]

I checked in plenty of full LHR-HKG-SYD when I worked for them in T3.

[horserun]

Personally I think V Aussie is a great product. They have taken advantage of QFs biggest F**k up, never getting the B777.

The B777 is an amazing aircraft, and it gives company accountants hard ons the world over.

I really hope the Virgin Blue group hang in their and stick it to QF!!

[Going Boeing]

Horserun, why the animosity towards QF? Most QF employees want V Oz to succeed as they would rather compete with an Australian carrier on the route rather than allow SQ, EK, CX, etc onto the route. Don't forget that apart from QF, V Oz will be competing with four other carriers on the route (United, Delta, Air NZ & American Airlines) - if they focus on QF only they may get broardsided by the other carriers.

[mcgrath50]

Why the animosity towards QF? The great Australian trait of Tall Poppy Syndrome.

V Australia looks like a great product and I hope they do well. I would definitely consider flying with them.

[6100]

I think it probably has a bit more to do with the fact that fares to LA have halved since V aus entered the market.

Another case of Qantas ripping off the punters, just because they can.

Having said that, it may prove to be the saving grace of V aus. Punters may give them a go, even though they're probably a bit green and rough round the edges, just so they can give their money to someone other than Qantas.

[Bootstrap1]

At the end of the day V Oz has made a bare bones investment in this airline. I know many people on this site love a good QF bashing and frankly there are many times they have deserved it, but at the end of the day V Oz is paying Tech and Cabin crew lower than average wages, they are not employing check in staff, not using VB bag chuckers, no VB engineers will be trained on the 777 and yet Branson and Godfrey will have you all believe they are gods gift to the industry.

All the maintenance and turn arounds in Aus will be done by Singapore Engineerings poor little brother AMSA, I doubt there will be much training in it for the guys there, any heavy work will be done by SIAEC in Singapore, even though JHAS tried to keep the work in country.

Even though QF management couldn't organise a raffle in a pub they have invested more into the A380 circus than Branson and Godfrey could dream of.

More Australians will benefit financially from flying the A380 than the Oz 777, sad but true, it might give the VB bosses a warm fuzzy feeling to take on QF but they should start employing more Australians before telling the world they are going to change the world.

[AnQrKa]

Going B, American dont operate to oz.

[ampclamp]

If I ran a business with a duopoly ie trans pac, I'd charge what the market would cop.Its not charity.Discount only when absolutely necessary.BHP , RIO ,CVRD have been gouging iron ore buyers while the going was good.Cover for the bad times.

[Howard Hughes]

Cover for the bad times
Sadly not many airline execs heed your call.:ooh:

Some fair points in there Boostrap!:ok:

[Jabawocky]

And just think if they added $3-6 onto every ticket, they may actually make some money :ugh:

On the long haul maybe $30-60 more.

And would anyone really care..... No.:ugh:

[Going Boeing]

Posted by AnQrKa
Going B, American dont operate to oz.

Yes they do. It's a code share on QF flights which have an AA flight number in addition to QF's flight number. It is a very significant number of seats on every flight & it is income for QF even if AA don't fill the seats. AA has a very large marketing ability which has for a number of years helped QF fill six B744 services a day to LAX (the number of flights has reduced in recent times). The fact is, as far as V Oz is concerned, in a marketing sense, they are competing with AA as much as the airlines that operate their own aircraft on the route.

[AnQrKa]

"in a marketing sense, they are competing with AA as much as the airlines that operate their own aircraft on the route."

Code sharing is employed to reduce the level of competition, not increase it.

[PyroTek]

They have taken advantage of QFs biggest F**k up, never getting the B777.
I seem to remember a QF executive talking about how they aren't ordering the 777's because it is "just old technology"?

Branson and Godfrey will have you all believe they are gods gift to the industry.
Which industry is this? Phones? Fitness clubs?:E
They seem to try and take advantage of any industry they can... soon they may even have "Virgin Family planning clinics" :ugh::ok:

Anyway, Saw VH-VOZ sitting around Melb on friday and sunday.
I think it's still a bit of a waste keeping it there when they could in fact be using it. could bring in a bit extra revenue...

Pyro:ok:

[coaldemon]

Isn't it going to an Airshow down that way? Avalon I think.

[PyroTek]

Isn't it going to an Airshow down that way? Avalon I think.

Yes, I believe it is, but it's been sitting at tullamarine for days...

[dirty deeds]

Heard that the V will start doing domestic routes (Trunk), thats why VB is parking 5 B737's and getting rid of 400 staff. Saw one of V's B777's at F12 Bay in Melbourne the other day, getting set up for domestic run's me thinks.

I think the future of Virgin in Australia lies with VAUS now, the B737 fleet will shrink and VAUS may end up with another aircraft type operating domestic in Australia, at even cheaper rates than VB.

They are forcing pilots over to V now by saying you maybe made redundant, they are making pilot's positions redundant on fleet type and not seniority and in the near future, I reckon that most of their domestic operations will be transfered to VAUS, a Jetstar/QF style of scheme.

Watch this space.:ooh::ooh::ooh::ooh:

[pylet]

Cos' the 777-300ER is the perfect aircraft for domestic routes!

Wind-up alert.........

[vee1-rotate]

ummmm....VAus 777 is parked at F12 due to there being no spare bays around Melbourne at the best of times. It is a Virgin Blue bay, hence why they park it there when it comes down. The only reason it moves off to G4 usually is due to refuelling issues on F12

[Dehavillanddriver]

Dirty Deeds, if you believe that I have some land east of the coast I would like to sell you

[mcgrath50]

New Zealand?

Don't do it deeds, it's a trap! It's full of sheep...

[Dookie on Drums]

Any truth to the rumour that on one flight to LA there were 15 extra pax not manifested and US Immigration hit V AUS with a $75k fine.....$5k per pax???? Also on said flight they ran out of coffee, loo paper and had the wrong menus placed onboard. Also heard that so called staff discount entry was "arranged" & on paper for the VAUS crew to go to places like Universal Studios etc and upon showing up were told they don't know anything about it!! Highly embarassing!! :ouch:

Also hope the $75k fine didn't also come out of VB's kitty.:ugh:

Hopefully it's just teething problems but it makes you wonder.:*

[clakajak]

Can anyone tell me if they are running 3 or 4 man crews to LAX?
Also, what work rules are they using?

[Ken Borough]

Hopefully it's just teething problems but it makes you wonder

Live in hope mate but issues like these simply smell of incompetence on a grand scale: they should not happen.

BTW handling agents' immigration cock-ups (fines) are to the account of the airline as GHAs are on an 'all care but no responsibility' basis on the patrt of the Handling Agent.

[vee1-rotate]

claka

3 man crew

[Hang Ten]

Dookie,

If this is true would not surprise me one little bit! Ground ops would be run by school kids.

Heard the same rumour that V will be doing some domestic op's in the near future.

[Capt Kremin]

Does VB have any domestic gates that can handle a B777-300? This does sound like either a wind-up to me.

[W00kiee]

Can any one tell me if they are running 3 or 4 man crews to LAX?
Also, what work rules are they using?


claka

3 man crew


It's a 4 man...... I mean person crew to LA

[Kangaroo Court]

How have the loads been?

[QF DRIVE]

Pretty good

I heard they departed with a total load of 35 passengers last week.

[littlehurcules]

I heard they departed with a total load of 35 passengers last week.

:eek::eek::eek:

Oh dear ...

Well at least it is good for their staff travel benifits .... they will be able to have a row to themselves ...

[Mr.Buzzy]

pfffft....Staff travel?..... Why give yourself a ballache when you can get a better deal online or through interline?

bbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzz...engagedyet?....bbbbaaaaaaaaa aaa

[maui]

Gentlemen and women. Use a big bullsmit filter around here. there is a lot of it going on.

As someone has already corrected, it is a 4 person crew (5 during training period).
There was some difficulty with the documentation of 3 persons.
Loads to date have been above expectations. Actual, is commercial in confidence, but I can assure you nowhere near what has been quoted. That 35 might have been referring to one of the proving flights.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good slagging tho.

Maui

[airbusa330]

A gaggle of obscurists really with nothing constructive, positive, even neutral view points. Just utter rubbish after rubbish. But arent australian's of that nature anyway? Cynical, Tall poppy syndromed, self absorbed and arrogant at best?No? Just have a trawl through the Dununda forums and one would get the idea.

Most of the slaggers should consider the fact there is another airline in the market from a pilot's point of view offering an opportunity (without the garbage that QF puts candidates through),to get on the ladder. The irony is that the same slaggers would without a shadow of a doubt jump at the opportunity despite what has been said about said Airline, as the the proof is already in ''the eating of the pudding.''Otherwise the advent of the pay for a job with no T&C's wouldn't have flourished in the first place mate.

[Ken Borough]

Actual, is commercial in confidence,

A nice try, but all will be revealed when the DOTRS website stats are updated.

nowhere near (35)what has been quoted

Wwhaaaaaat? Don't tell us they were a lot less than this number??:E

[maui]

Ken

For your first part , yes, when the DOTARS figures are out it will no longer be commercial in confidence. However the advance booking status will remain so.

For your second part, :ugh:

Maui

[Sand dune Sam]

Slaggers...nah, typical pprune know it alls I would say...

[Qantas 787]

35 passengers - I doubt it. It would be easier (and cheaper) to cancel a flight with a load that low. Even a 737/A320 wouldn't go out that light with conditions the way they are.

[inandout]

-well better than United they lost over 5 billion last year and Delta wasn't much better.

[Mstr Caution]

787 - I have no idea what the loads have been like. But cancelling flights at this stage of the game would be a "Big Red Flag" to the viability of the operation.

[Bazzamundi]

You can't just cancel a service if one way you have a small load - say 35. What if you are booked to be full on the return leg - what do you do with all the punters there? Long haul flying, and particularly the states, is quite fickle and seasonal at times, and it is not uncommon to have really bad loads in one direction for weeks at a time, while coming back the other way the aircraft is 100% full.

Also, V have done well out of the QF380 dramas with lots of pax being sent their way I believe since other QF services are full. Then again, QF also did well picking up V pax when delivery of their aircraft was delayed.

Such is aviation.

[Captain Sherm]

I have friends there and wish them well. Big time.

The 777-300ER is the finest aircraft yet built to carry 350-ish people on trans pacific sectors. It is so much more efficient than anything else the legacy carriers operate on similar and competing routes. Way more efficient. It is, like the entire B777 series an absolute game changer.

The legacy carriers are getting better equipment and will one day be competitive with VA. In the meantime there's Australian jobs being created and that can only be good news.

Given half a chance Sherm will one day get on board and see innovation and competition at first hand. I don't work for them...Sherm's tarnished and dusty wings will sadly never again see the sharp end of a 777...but like all thinking Australian pilots I look forward to seeing them flourish.

[Keg]

I hope the VAus crew contine to do well out of this and that the have long and enjoyable careers.

This quote by airbusa330 piqued my interest though:

Most of the slaggers should consider the fact there is another airline in the market from a pilot's point of view offering an opportunity (without the garbage that QF puts candidates through),to get on the ladder.

I would have hoped that flogging across the Pacific in a 777 would be considered the top of the ladder rather than a means to 'get on' it. If the 777 is how someone gets on the ladder than what is there higher up? :confused: :( The shame of it though is that airbusa330 is right. VAus probably isn't the 'top of the ladder'- unless the individual has been o/s and made their fortune with CX or EK and then considers being home and flogging around on the 777 as the pinnacle.

WRT the QF 'garbage', I've got no doubt that QF make people jump through some fiery hoops that don't seem to make much sense. It's deplorable that QF make an individual stump up the cash to pay for the employment process- although not as deplorable as making someone pay for their own aircraft type rating! However that 'garbage' that successful QF applicants go through results in them being paid about double what the VAus crew are paid. I'd take the 'garbage' (and even the longer time spent as a S/O and a F/O) every day of the week. Perhaps that's why I consider flogging the 767 around the domestic network to probably be 'higher' on the ladder than a VAus gig on lesser pay and conditions.

(Bias alert: The author has been in QF in excess of 14 years and is very thankful for his chance to get on the ladder some 19 years ago).

[Merlins Magic]

but like all thinking Australian pilots I look forward to seeing them flourish.

A thinking Australian Pilot with any credability would turn down any offer of employment based purely on the T&Cs on offer. Sure it would be nice to fly the 777 but on current conditions all your achieving is screwing up the Australian Aviation Industry even further.

PS. Before the criticism starts, I was offered a position in the first offers 12 months ago to which I refused based on T&Cs.

[Wonderworld]

It is a very significant number of seats on every flight & it is income for QF even if AA don't fill the seats.

This would only be applicable on a blockspace codeshare arrangement which AA on QF is NOT.


Also, V have done well out of the QF380 dramas with lots of pax being sent their way I believe since other QF services are full. Then again, QF also did well picking up V pax when delivery of their aircraft was delayed.

They havent actually. To the best of my knowledge no QF pax were transferred to Virgin during any A380 disruptions. There is no pax re-accommodation agreement between the 2 since Virgin have begun flying. It is true they paid for pax to tvl on QF when their delay in startup happened.

[Bootstrap1]

Captain Sherm there is only relative handful of jobs being created V Aus, I know this is better than nothing but they aren't the saviour of Australian Aviation that Dick and Brett would want us to believe.

[B043]

Last week V Aus carried just over 2650 pax........ pretty good if you ask me :ok:

[Kranky]

It's great to see some posters saying positive things about VA.
To quote author Dale Carnegie "Any fool can criticise, condemn and complain, and most fools do".
Whether you like the Virgin brand or not, at least it's the Aussie way to "have a go".

[On Guard]

Prior to launch average load factors were 40-45% up until June/July which is in line/slightly above expectations. I imagine now it is 'built' numbers will be increasing. All the best I say.

Buzzy - cheaper on interline?? VB has an excellent staff travel. A LOT better than QF/ANZ. Free for group 1 (yearly limit applies), don't think interline can beat that. Sort out your facts.

B043 - you sure about that? 3 flights per week = 6 sectors/2650 = 441/sector.

[airbusa330]

Keg,Simple fact is that jobs are being created for Pilots,and not just pilots at times of contraction. The T&C's of either company are a different topic altogether and nor did I mention/compare QF's remuneration other than the selection process. You subtly included that fact in order to somehow justify/warrant the apparent selection process at QF cause of the handsome rewards that shall follow.
Please lower your nose down a touch, as V is an opportunity of some sort for someone ok?
Had Alco got it their way with QF then you and your remark ''Perhaps that's why I consider flogging the 767 around the domestic network to probably be 'higher' on the ladder than a VAus gig on lesser pay and conditions.'' would have been of a different opinion today. At least you are thankful to have had the opportunity unlike some.
No bias from me as I do not work for either company but wish them all well.

[oicur12]

Keg,

“VAus probably isn't the 'top of the ladder'“

A totally subjective view point if ever there was one. What IS the top of the ladder Keg.

“. . . unless the individual has been o/s and made their fortune with CX or EK. . . “

And there are plenty of these guys out there, especially in SQ. They have just as much right to the labor market as the young whippersnapper trying to pay off a house.

“. . . results in them being paid about double what the VAus crew are paid.”

Do you think such a situation will last for ever?

“I'd take the 'garbage' . . . . “

Of course you would, your frame of reference is razor thin but more importantly you don’t need to work for Vaus. You would be ill advised to leave the sheltered workshop for a startup during these depressed times. But here’s the point Keg, there are folk out there who are in very different shoes to you.

Merlin,

“A thinking Australian Pilot with any credability would turn down any offer of employment based purely on the T&Cs on offer. Sure it would be nice to fly the 777 but on current conditions all your achieving is screwing up the Australian Aviation Industry even further.”

This is EXACTLY the same opinion a good friend of mine had right up until his contract in Asia was cancelled, owing to the downturn. Pragmatism has set in and he now holds a very different opinion (or maybe he just lacks credibility). Merlin, congratulations. You turned down Vaus. Were you unemployed at the time? I suspect you were not.

These are tough times that require an adjustment to ones opinion.

[inandout]

VA Economy class staff travel to LAX is cheaper than QF, but QF Buss is MUCH cheaper than VA. Can not compare PE as QF does not offer it to staff as does VA. VA also offer yearly credits towards the cost of a staff ticket which QF do not.

[genex]

Keg et al,

Think it through a little further.

Assuming the V-Australia product is say about as good as the same fare would buy a traveller on QF.......

Then you have the fact that (as you say) the QF crew are paid about twice what the VA crew get.....and the 777-300 ER's economics are known to be markedly superior to the 744....

Is that situation sustainable? I know you would agree that QF should have bought a 777 fleet but even with that is there some special reason the travelling public will continue to vote with their credit cards to pay the QF drivers such a premium?

It seems to me that the VA 777 operation has much lower hurdles to get over to achieve profitable ops than does the QF 744 fleet. And that fleet is aging daily.

But then I am only a humble pilot whose best days are far behind me.

[Keg]

oicur, it wasn't me that introduced the concept that VAus wasn't the top of the ladder, it was airbusa330. If I'd been O/S then I may see it as being the 'top' in order to be home but then that's inconsistent with airbus's comments about 'getting on' to the ladder. So let's be blunt and cut it down to the very basics. Airbusa330 reckons this VAus gig is a great way of getting on the ladder. I think it's sad that a long haul 777 gig is so bad that it's perceived by many- including airbusa330 by all accounts- as the first step. I reckon it's a sad indictment on the industry. Do you disagree? Do you think it's a great thing that many people see a LH 777 gig as a 'start' in the jet jobs?

Genex, normally I'd put some thought into the response but given your demonstrated tendency of not responding when shown to be inconsistent or simply wrong then most thinking readers of PPRUNE will understand why I haven't bothered with you this time.

[airbusa330]

Keg, Hope the 4 sectors treated you well today and that you were rewarded handsomely for it.My point was it is another door into the industry for the locals. There is one more employer for pilots. Never did I mention the ''deal''as being great, which I agree is non existent. Maybe crossed wires then. But one thing is for certain especially down that way, the Mcdonalds of airlines is surely on its way.
For me its not an option to return on that deal, and sorry was the reply.

[genex]

Keg,

I was actually trying to be reasoned and present something that could be addressed with logic rather than disdain. They are very valid points, made by many here and there and they cut straight to the core of whether VA and\or QF's operation is sustainable

[inandout]

Paying a CFO at VA less than the FM is probably the worst insult a Company can to to an employee in this game. Unfortunatly and amazingly they think we are all equal and happy. :eek:

[Al E. Vator]

Morale a make or break issue for airlines
Steve Creedy | March 13, 2009
Article from: The Australian

GREG Bamber has a simple and often ignored message for airline executives: treat your people well and it will pay dividends.

The director of research at Monash University's Department of Management argues that airlines that engage with their workers provide a better return to investors, as well as higher quality and more reliable services.

He is today releasing a book examining airline employment practices in North America, Asia, Australia and Europe.

Professor Bamber and his co-authors -- Jody Hoffer Gitell, Thomas A.Kochan and Andrew von Nordenflycht -- looked at legacy and low-cost carriers in researching Up In the Air: How Airlines Can Improve Performance by Engaging their Employees.

Teams of people based at universities around the world made case studies about airlines during the research.

"We've ... had a lot of quantitative data. We've been able to draw material from the international civil aviation authority, for example, much of which has been unpublished or not analysed in the past," Professor Bamber said.

The researchers found that where airline staff and customers reported high and rising frustration about the way they were treated this often resulted in cuts to services and staff.

Falling morale led to increased problems, such as flight delays and baggage loss, that undermined a carrier's viability.

Professor Bamber believes too many airline executives and unionists assume that adversarial industrial relations are inevitable.

He advocates instead a "virtuous circle" where more can be achieved with co-operative industrial relations.

"It's an appropriate strategy for airlines to get into and, indeed, other businesses, particularly those involved in serving customers, as many enterprises do," he said.

The Melbourne academic argues that employee relations in legacy airlines often stem from their origins.

He notes that many were founded by pilots who had been demobilised after World War I and run on military principles. He points to Lufthansa and Continental Airlines as examples of legacy carriers that have benefited from good or improving employee relations.

"Continental was very lean and mean and nasty to its employees under a previous regime and we include some detail of its transformation," he says.

"It went into bankruptcy and was relaunched with a new approach that aims to be much more engaging with its staff. It's working with its staff rather than hitting them with a battering ram and it's been much more successful in its new incarnation.

"Similarly, in Europe, Lufthansa has been more successful than, say, British Airways. Lufthansa has sought to work with its people to a greater extent. (It has) ... councils and other forms of employee participation in decision-making to a much greater extent than British Airways, which has been following a more adversarial tradition, which has been typical of the English-speaking countries."

There are also differences in the new breed of low-cost carriers typically started by flamboyant entrepreneurs.

The Monash academic points to the differences between Dublin-based Ryanair, which does not treat its employees particularly well, and US carrier Southwest. He notes that Ryanair's reputation for not treating staff or customers well has not stopped it from eating into the legacy market in Europe.

But Southwest has also prospered.

"And it treats its people very differently," he says. "It's fostered employees engagement and employee commitment and participative decision-making. It has a very partnership-oriented approach in dealing with the unions that represent its people and it's been the most consistently financially successful airline in the US since its foundation in the early 1970s.

"So they are two polar opposites -- Ryanair and Southwest."

Professor Bamber questions the extent to which the Ryanair model will be sustainable in the long run. He says customers have been annoyed and alienated, while staff are largely disgruntled. "And that might come back to bite them."
=====================
VA will need to pay more. When the aircrew shortage returns they will lose crews and have difficulty manning flights, just as VB did last year. Why put yourself in that commercial position? They may not need to pay realistic salaries now but that situation will change.

[Sir Donald]

''VA will need to pay more. When the aircrew shortage returns they will lose crews and have difficulty manning flights, just as VB did last year. Why put yourself in that commercial position? They may not need to pay realistic salaries now but that situation will change.''

When you have a one man airline show with an''we are all equal''mantra, the salary that is certain to go up is only his one. His message is clear, if you don't like it leave this''where everybody is equal but some are more than others''show. Arrogance and self awareness often go had in hand.

This research does nothing to make CEO'S realise that a viable business is a long term proposition and as such it needs to be nurtured not culled just for bonuses. Ceo's have a short contract terms and are only concerned with their bonuses. Staff on the other would stay longer should the job be ok. A staff member that knows their job and is committed because they love their job would pay returns in gold. Try telling that to a CEO an see what the response would be.

Easyjet went through a similar period until Ray W f***ed off. As he was under the same premise ''like it or leave'' and guess what people did just that. Middle of summer, cancelled flights, crews refusing to go into discretion, or anything to help the company.

The one thing that is not perhaps taught at MBA school is how to motivate and retain staff instead of a feudalist approach to numbers.

But in the meantime we can only be at each others throats on here whilst the wagon carries on.

[porch monkey]

A beer for that man..

[Tidbinbilla]

This thread is not going to degenerate into another T&C whingefest.:ugh:

Let's get back on topic please - that is "How the company is faring"

TID

[QF DRIVE]

Would be interested to see what the inbound to Australia loads are. The general population in the states would not have heard of V Australia, so it stands to reason that currently V Oz would only be bringing back the passengers they took to LAX. I would assume that the first couple of flights out of LAX would be next to empty.

[tobz92_ymen]

QF Drive,

people go to LA, people come home from LA, its simple. If people are going, they will comeback and most people travel the same carrier return as it works out cheapest.


Walked through the VA 777 today at the Avalon Airshow, quite impressive, and is a lot more comfortable than any 747-400. The VA business class doesnt compare with Qantas business, but there economy is far superior to that of Qantas. If anyone is thinking about going to LA, VA and Qantas prices are about the same $950-$1050, and i would choose VA anyday of the week.

[mcgrath50]

Tobz,

I think the point he is making is most people go to LA for a week or longer due to the flight time. So in the first week to month the loads coming back will be less because as you say most people get return flights and so won't be coming back in the same numbers.

[inandout]

VA Buss Class is lie flat so it is better than QF which is not, EXCEPT for the 380 which is and therefore is better, JUST, than VA.

[Wonderworld]

I think QF DRIVE is referring to the originating US inbound traffic. Not returning Aus traffic. :)

[QF DRIVE]

Its a mixture of both. For he first few weeks the loads will be lighter coming back as the punters have their time in the USA before returning.

What percentage of the loads are picked up with outbound US passengers on the LAX/SYD /LAX sectors ?

[inandout]

Look it's a time thing. It will take time for people both here and the US to know about VA, after all QF have been around on this route for a long time. Given that ,VAs share should increase as a % of the route over time, and this is exactly what is slowly happening now.

[KRUSTY 34]

The problem is, VA don't have the time! The recession, price war, and dwindling O/S market will be long and deep. BG said recently that now, is probably the worst time to be embarking on this sort of exercise.

How right he is! :{

[VBA Engineer]

At what time do you decide to amputate?

How ill does the main body have to become before you cut off the rot?

[coaldemon]

Everyone here is focusing on passengers but how much freight are they carrying?

[oicur12]

“I reckon it's a sad indictment on the industry. Do you disagree?”


There are many things that constitute a “sad indictment on the industry” but the perception that same needy pilots may have on their place on a non existent ladder is definitely not one of them.

[Mstr Caution]

Krusty

I believe BG said that it was like starting an International Airline on September 10th (2001).

To me that's like saying the conditions are to become alot worse rather than better.

[inandout]

Re freight, loads have been really good to the point that we have been weight res a few times, and this will happen more so with winter coming and - or MEL. Pax numbers ARE growing and for the record- both ways. Staff in general fantastic. Pay is CRAP however, esp for the 2nd Officers [RFO]

[maui]

What you all seem to forget is that it was never envisaged that V Aus would be profitable inside 2 years. They have already budgeted for the losses. In that respect they are better placed than other airlines, which had not budgeted for the downturn. 50% of SFA is a lot less of a calamity than 50% of a motza.

Timing is crap for sure, but the timing was established long before the downturn was foreseen.

Fasten your seat belts, its going to be bumpy, but the turbulence will pass.

Maui

[Under Dog]

Thats True Maui but it depends on how big of a loss in those 2 years ,that they can sustain before it brings the big plan unstuck.

Regards The Dog

[maui]

Under Dog

See post #63

M

[Under Dog]

Maui,
Its in our best interest to see V survive ( I shore hope they do)
But one must wonder in this current economic climate when no one can
predict the out come whether they will be able to weather the storm,especially during start up as these operations burn some unbelievable amounts of cash.

The Dog:ok:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Who cares what "loads" are like?

If you give away 777 rides, people will fill seats.

Asking them for enough money to prevent the continued milking of the "bread and butter company" (737) is another matter.

Anyone care to show us how many shorthaul companies have successfully started longhaul and regional flying together?

That same bloody stain on the brickwall made by the foreheads of past topheavy-airline managers is bigger and bloodier than ever but still they ignore it, continue to bash their own heads on the wall for a while and seek to save a dollar by retrenching those working hardest.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Mstr Caution]

Maui

I think the degree of budgeting VBA have done for the global economic downturn is directly linked to the current shareprice.

[airtags]

the terrain alert is getting louder................

[Dale Hardale]

It would be interesting to know what VA's true cost per seat kilometre is compared to other pacific operators. At a guess, I would think a lot higher than Qantas which has the advantage of economy of scale and an established infrastructure network.

If they are throwing away seats, then full aircraft mean nothing. They would be better off stopping the operation right now and realise that the current downturn has overtaken any planning projection that was done 2 years ago.

[hongkongfooey]

Sorry in advance Tindinbilla.............

But do QF skippers really earn $360,000 :confused: ( double VA capt. @ 180 odd )
and I thought I was doin' OK :eek:

[Richard Kranium]

Any wonder Jet* is expanding at the expence of QF, Jet* skippers probably earn less than half of a QF ones, so is for V Oz by the looks of things, way of the new world order I would say. :{

[Teal]

From The Age newspaper (online):

Delta offers flights to US for $777
March 16, 2009 - 3:09PM

The world's largest airline has thrown down the challenge to Qantas and others by offering return trans-Pacific flights from $777.
US airline Delta announced the fare, which does not include taxes, on Monday ahead of its expected July launch on the Sydney-Los Angeles route, Travel Weekly reported. Taxes would add around $300 to the total fare.

Delta will face fierce competition from Qantas and United, along with start-up V Australia (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/bransons-new-baby-how-v-australia-measures-up-20090213-86oz.html).

The airline is also offering customers the chance to fly beyond LA for an extra $200. Destinations available under the deal include Atlanta, Boise, Detroit, Indianapolis, New York, Orlando, Memphis, New Orleans, Seattle, Salt Lake City and Cincinnati.

The fresh eruption in the price war comes amidst gloomy times for aviation. New figures from the American Express Asia Pacific Business Travel Monitor show airlines are cutting prices in a bid to beat the global financial crisis. The report found Australian published fares were down three per cent in the fourth quarter of 2008.

"Airfares to the US recorded the biggest drop at five per cent compared to third quarter figures," the monitor said.
Jonas Borglin, a spokesman for American Express Business Travel, Japan, Asia Pacific and Australia said the impact of the crisis was clear.
"During the first half of 2008 the economy was strong and airlines responded with airfare increases across all classes and destinations," Mr Borglin said in a statement.
"The economic crisis forced airlines to reassess their pricing strategies in order to continue to attract passengers."
AAP

[Jabawocky]

But do QF skippers really earn $360,000Yes........ only a few senior folk on the 744 as trainers and or checkers I guess, but I do know of one or two that have made more than that in a year.

It would not represent the vast majority though I would not think.

[inandout]

Hell - What gets me is that DELTA is so broke they shouldn't even be around in their present form, and the same for United. Talk about an unfair playing field.That's Chapter 11.:*

[aulglarse]

RK, I can only assume you know what JQ Captains earn and who are you comparing that to?
Half of what are you talking about? A380/B744 skipper?

I'm not going to start a pissing contest here on this thread but get your facts right first.:=

[hongkongfooey]

Apples to apples, I seriously doubt QF line drivers get 360K, especially not after the stink on PPRUNE last year defending themselves against the news article about being overpaid, I think it was circa 260K ?
Of course, Keg could wipe out all this supposition with one stroke of his keyboard.;)

[Tidbinbilla]

Yes, well let's get back on topic. Not about T&C's at QF.

TID.

[Richard Kranium]

Well I did say "probably" not categorically, but I can stand to be corrected.

But your right TID, back to the topic, last report I got was a couple of days ago, that the load factor was about 85%.

Could be begginers luck, or just lies, but all I wish to say, may they live long and prosper. :)

[No Idea Either]

Yes, Yes....take a chill pill LR3

Its a broad generic term mate, read it in context, if you have the ability. Everyone has experienced captains and experienced FO and experienced SO and experienced engineers, etc...etc...:ok::ok::ok::ok:(except you know who:):))

[grusome]

Don't know precisely how the Pacific is going, but FWIIW, my next door neighbour went to SIN and back last week by Emirates, said that northbound they had about 130 pax, southbound less.
Imprecise reports from VA are that loads are "reasonable".

[Vorsicht]

I heard at least one flight last week went max tow ex Syd and LA. over 10tonne of cargo as well.

Can't do much better than that, assuming the punters are paying for their tickets.

V

[On Guard]

Good Loads (low yeild?) ex SYD, Average ex LAX.

All the best to them.