Uni or not to be? University Degree + ATPL vs ATPL

[rriisshhii]

Hi PPRuNe-rs

I have been vacillating between the decision of whether to go to university and obtain a degree and complete an ATPL or whether to do the ATPL without the degree and here is my predicament:

What do the members of pprune feel would make be more desirable to an airline out of these 2 options: [I feel the dates are necessary considering the cyclical state aviation is in at the moment]

Modular ATPL + BA in Air Transport Studies graduated by late 2012 [after the olympics] [£65 000] approx

OR

Integrated ATPL graduated by EARLY 2011 [£70 000] approx

I don't want to open up another mod vs. integ argument because this has little to do with it, I just want to ask for help on the addition of a degree and the differing graduation times.

Thanks very much PPRuNe

[bajadj]

either would be fine, personally i would go to uni as you'll have a much better time than at flight school, i don't think the degree will make much difference to your employability, nor would going integrated. So go to uni and chase some skirt for a bit and ride out the storm would be my advice.

[Kestral757]

True true, Student life is cool,and you only get it once so enjoy it :ok:,P.S to avoid opening a can of worms check out previous posts about degrees

[rriisshhii]

Yeah I've looked up degree posts but for the one I'm applying for [BUCKS] the threads seem to be a bit scant. Thanks for the replies so far.

And to bajadj, why would going integrated at the moment not make a difference?

[bajadj]

because most airlines don't give a tiny rats ass whether you trained modular or integrated and the one that does (british airways) aren't recruiting any low hours SSP's AT ALL at the moment.

[skyhighbird]

If you had asked this question a year ago, then the only debate would have been between Integrated Vs Mod. People would have said a Uni degree is not a neccesity.

Things are different now.

In these troubled times, University is a brilliant idea. Firstly, you have something to fall back on if the airline career doesn't work out, and secondly, if you believe the doom and gloom, it is probably best to wait a bit due to the recession - and hence do the mod route.

Due to the above, this would negate any thoughts about doing integrated right now - and btw it is not 70K. It is 70K plus 20% contingency min.

One more thing, a university degree will not make you a better pilot. It will get you to the top of the pile for an interview though if you had 10 other CV's from low hour pilots without a degree. This is unquestionable - in any industry. And if 1000 wannabees have been reading pprune for the past few months, then everyone would have the same idea about finishing flight training in 2012. And the competition would be hotter.

My advice - get the degree and go modular.

As other people have said, its only high and mighty BA that go for integrated straight out of flight training cadets.

[Jox]

Life is all about options.

Go to University, gain a degree in a subject that interests you, join the University Air Squadron to get some flying experience and then get out into the world.

This is a majorly depressed time within the industry. Everybody has some concern to a lesser or greater degree about their own jobs and there are plenty with a high degree of experience chasing those vacancies that are available.

Everybody who has been within for several years will tell you that this industry is all about the wheel, we watch as we move from times of few jobs and a major slow down to times of being unable to recruit suitably qualified pilots where demand occasionally outstrips supply.

Times do change and I will not digress into payment for TR's which many on this particular forum appear to be solely focused on. The lengths that newly qualified pilots have to go to in order to secure their first paying job in these days are depressing enough.

This period of extreme instability will pass, but not in the short term, go get yourself a back up plan, give yourself an opportunity to earn a living from something other than flying which gives you clear options and other avenues.

For my money that would at least demonstrate good decision making skills, an ability to undertake continued learning at a high level, prudence and a long term strategic vision. You have time to undertake pilot training after Uni and the market will hopefully be much different by then. There are any number of newly qualified on these forums, their posts are testament to that.

I became involved in aviation with my first job in a jet at a young age, I am still at it now with the same company now in the LHS but this was due to my being qualified at a time where the market was extremely stable and there was good demand.

I was and have generally always been lucky, try to make sure you do not need to be.

Jox :ok:

[rriisshhii]

@ Skyhighbird & Jox,

I thank you for the positive replies. To be honest, being pprune I was expecting to be a sheep thrown to the wolves but you've all given me some insight and have seriously made me think about my options, and will have undoubtedly helped others who are in my situation.

[PilotPieces]

Let me tell you, if I had £70,000 in the bank, I would not be considering bothering with uni. It's only the fact that I will be working my ass off for the next 6/7 years to save enough for an atpl that I am considering it.

[Aussie John]

What the hell use is a "degree" in Air Transport Studies!?????
Id be interested to see what the "academic" modules would be. Baggage handling studies? History of passeneger boarding steps?

You wanna be a pilot? The ATPL exams will teach you more than you need to know for the job.
You wanna work in airline management? Ur gonna need a proper degree in an academic discipline to get onto an airline's graduate scheme.
Don't go anywhere near this mickey mouse heap of crap. It is a sham.

[Jox]

rriisshhii,

Reading some of the other posts I can understand why you expected so many posts from individuals who would hardly assist with your question.

There are those who are not professional pilots who spout their poison for their own entertainment on these forums and who in my opinion, become exceedingly tiresome for those such as yourself.

You have a desire to become a professional pilot, you asked a well considered question in an attempt to secure for yourself the opinion of others which may assist. You have achieved the opinion of a couple of other of pilots who are working toward their professional ratings and have given you their honest opinion based on their experiences which have clearly given you food for thought which is the result you tried to source. I do this for a living, have done for over 22 years and have flown with many who have been in your situation in their past.

If you want it enough, you will achieve it, those who have to always find a way, I know I did, took a few chances on the way and always seemed to be in the right place at the right time. By the time I got my first and only professional offer of employment I was down to my last few pounds and had little else than a pot to p*ss in.

Anything that does not kill you only makes you stronger and if you have that desire you will succeed medical permitting.

Aussie John - Thank you for your educated encouragement, Mods please feel free to delete it, you allegedly have an Australian CPL which you are trying to convert to a frozen JAA ATPL. Short on hours, wrong issuing authority, struggling to meet the grade and costing you a fortune. You are a long way down a very long queue of already qualified people who may well pass certain parts of professional interviews much more easily than you with your opinions. I know, I sit on them. Consider the impact of what you post - it may haunt you one day, remember, under pressure the leopard never changes its spots and those accustomed to recognising the signs will see you for what you reveal.

A degree in Air Transport Studies leads to a MSc and has core modules in Airline Ops, Marketing, Human Resource Management, Air Transport Economics, Financial Accounting, Quality Assurance, Law and Negotiating, Crisis Management and Fleet Planning as well as a choice in elective modules in subjects as useful as Accident and Incident Investigation, Active Safety Management and Psychology in Aviation Management. Good core skills for a potential pilot and good employment opportunities for someone on the ground needing to earn a professional white collar wage.

What use is a degree in Geology, Music or Art to the art of flying, I do not know but I fly regularly with RHS pilots who hold those degrees and they are really good professional pilots with good management skills who I look forward to working with and are all working toward their command courses and will make first class Captains once the credit crunch is over.

PilotPieces - Your posting history reveals much about you, perhaps you should just decide to do the University thing and move on giving yourself a goal to try to achieve.

rriisshhii - you have demonstrated to me an intention to achieve, prudence and resilience. I wish you well in whatever you decide and know you will strive to achieve it. What started as a dream I am sure you will attain. I did, as did many like me. There are however others who regardless of how hard they try, will only ever achieve armchair professional status, you can read their pontifications and unqualified posts on these forums on a daily basis.

I do not post on forums for bus drivers, car salesmen or hospital workers as I am unqualified to do so, please do not be downhearted or influenced by those who post similarly unqualified views on PPRuNe. Decide on your own path and overcome and adapt to obstacles in order to succeed.

Good luck, you have my full support and know you will make the best decision for you.

Jox :D

[Aussie John]

Jox, I have no problem with people studying the kinds of things you talk about, I am sure they are very useful things to know about to work in the industry. I just have a problem with people calling it a degree. Things like this undermine the merits of studying proper academic disciplines. Call it a NVQ or a BTEC, yes. Degree no.

I suppose what I am trying to get across to the original poster is to not be fooled by this. Yes you will be learning some potentially useful stuff, but you will not be getting a degree in the correct sense of the word.

[preduk]

Aussie,

I agree with you mate. Mickey mouse degree that wouldn't get you a job in the real world.

Marketing
Human Resource Management
Air Transport Economics,
Financial Accounting
Law and Negotiating

All of these subjects above are specialist areas, there is no way you can cover them properly to employment level at the same time. If I had a position for marketing I would get someone who has a degree in Marketing, HR you can't do because its not CIPD recognised, Economics I would rather get someone with a degree specialise in the economy, accountign I would get an accoutant and law I would get a legal advisor or a lawyer (which the degree doesn't qualify you for either).

If you want to get into management do a proper management course the airline industry isn't anywhere as big as other markets and therefore doing a general management degree will give you the option to going into a number of industries not just the airlines.

[Nathan.Hunter]

Well done Jox,

Aussie , its a Bsc - its a degree! full stop!

I personally recomend uni, best choice of my life :-)

(MEng in Aerospace Systems Engineering)

[preduk]

Nathan,

With that logic, why not get a degree in David Beckham studies? I'm sure thats a Bsc as well.

[PilotPieces]

Jox, I would imagine that my posting history reveals that I havent got a clue which route to take because every time I read a thread that could apply to me, there are always convicting news. Not necessarily because some people posting are not qualified pilots, but because there is no right way to do it at the moment, hence my confusion.

Are you at LHR on the morning of the 12th? Im on standby for the BA117 so will be waiting around after they tell me to come back at minus 30 minutes.

[Nathan.Hunter]

I think you'll find that will be a BA

and i'm not a fan of the Art Degrees!

[preduk]

Whats wrong with the BA degrees? BA covers a number of areas from Business, Law and Languages.

What about Surfing studies, that was a Bsc

[SilveR5]

Hi there rriisshhii

Here is my opinion

Modular...yes
Uni Degree...yes
Aviation Uni Degree...no

As I can see, you are still 19...you have the whole world to study and get the ATPL and be a pilot...but what if the industry turns its back to you...what if you are stuck for whatever the reason was, and you need to find a work for living...aviation industry is not the safe place where you can keep all the eggs...!!

Right now it's in a total mess and no1 can really predict how soon things would come back to norm.

I agree it would be fantastic to be more specialized in aviation vs. your mates, but what are the extra milestones here??

Airlines would love to recruit pilots with versatile expereinces and rich knowledge dealing with people and real life situations. You can get this on your side if you seek another type of job with another university degree. It will just add more value to you as a candidate for aviation career!

I would suggest that you obtain B.Sc. in a totally different specialty other than aviation. You may choose to get the degree that you feel like matching your ambitions besides being a pilot. You must have been dreaming of becomeing something else in the future...search for it inside yourself...spend sometime talking to people who had similar experiences. Go to universities and talk to people at different levels...you would love to know about these things from people who are already invovled in it...So you better don't rush when it comes to shaping your future.


ATPL is all what you need to be a pilot.
Different B.Sc. is all what you must have when you can't be a pilot.
Both together could give you all what you want!



Cheers

[Nathan.Hunter]

i suppose studying surfing might involve a bit of physics and tidal forces. so could get quite technical.

Nothing wrong with Arts degrees, i'm just a science man. its annoying when at uni youve got a 30 page group design of a tanker aircraft to wirte up along with 25 hours of lectures a week, and your mates studying BA's have 2 lectures per week! lol, not that i'm saying engineers work harder or anything {rolls eyes}

[Jox]

Nathan,

Congratulations on your qualification, as you rightly point out a degree is just that, a degree and demonstrates to employers that you have sucessfully worked, studied and attained the required level in higher education to be awarded the piece of paper.

Aussie John & preduk - I refer once again to my earlier post, this is a forum for pilots or those interested enough in making their living as one, I regret I cannot provide you a link to the education forum where the content on NVQ's, BTEC or Mickey Mouse degrees could be debated as I do not frequent such sites and have little experience in such subjects. :ugh:

However I am aware of the advantages of an applicant having a degree, any degree when you read their application. It means that the individual has dedication and a capacity for learning at a higher level whilst being able to maintain the required grade over several years. Passing the ATPL's is not the hardest thing in the world, look at the number who have sucessfully done it, it does however take dedication, application and effort.

Once awarded you then have to find a job and demonstrate that you will be able to continue to learn as you move forward into the world of TR's and sim sessions on any number of aircraft through your career. I was a conventional aircraft person moving from DC9's to 737's and then onto the bus. Each one different, challenging and requiring different skills to fly.

rriisshhii,

SilveR5 makes a good point and one that you should take due consideration of.

preduk - Yes I will be at EGLL on the 12th, three times in fact, however I will not be frequenting the Western side of the airport unless we are using 09 Right for departures as BA ( not the degree of course, I hope we have put that one to bed permanantly ) choose not to have to share a terminal with us anymore.

Before you latch onto BA bashing or visions of my jealousy, Mrs Jox is a SFO for them, she chose her company, I was chosen by mine, neither of us would change volountarily, she is as happy with her lot as I am with mine even though she flies much heavier metal a lot further than me these days.

Must go, gotta get ready for work. :ok:

[Kestral757]

yeah dont listen to Preduk, he seems to thing all degress are useless unless it is a BA Hons, oh by the Pred you can actually get a BA Hons in Air Transport Management so put that in your pipe and smoke it :p :ouch:

[preduk]

Kestral757

Did you even read this post or did you just open your mouth and let your belly rumble? I haven't once on this forum said anything bad about the BSc, BA or BEng. I made a comment regarding these useless courses that are no way near in par with the older, proper management courses.

Nathan made a comment to suggest he had something against BAs which I asked about because each and every degree has so many subjects under it.

If I find all degrees useless, why am I doing a science degree at the moment?

I really don't care if these aviation degrees are BA, BSc, BEng, MSc, MA, MEd, LLM or MBA... they are useless in the real world.

[Kestral757]

No Preduk Ive just encountered your thoughts on previous debates about degrees and I just dont agree with how you can say to people that Aviation degrees are useless..:*

[Nathan.Hunter]

I think there are plenty of uses for Aviation based degrees!

I wasnt having a dig at BA's ...... well i was but meh! lol.

Anyhu, the orignal question was whens the best time to come out and look for a pilots job i belive.

I think doing a degree n graduating after 2012 is the smarter option. I myself have very little flying experience and have decided to have a career in engineering whilst i slowly training towards all the licences i need. main reasons for that is little or no debt, and gives me a good few years to decide if its what i really want to do ...... or if i prefere engineering.


Probs doesnt help anyone, but my advice would be uni degree all the way! :-)

[Aussie John]

Actually a mate of mine did a "degree" in Surfing Technology, not as mickey mouse as it might sound as it turns out. Was all about the technology of building surfboards, he now has his own business back at home making custom boards (have one myself) and is making a nice crust.

That aside, I would like to know what kind of job people think this guy will get with his "degree" in aviation management? Yes, the likes of BA, Quntas etc do employ graduate management trainees, but those with academic degrees from decent "red brick" universities. This mickey mouse qualification will not be fit for that purpose He will also be completely unqualified to work in any other industry. Far better would be a degree in general business management, or another academic discipline.

Jox, why do you think I am not a pilot? Because I have knowledge and opinion about things other than aviation? Does 3500 hours on a 747 make me a pilot? You have no idea as to the personal reasons why I am converting my licence to a JAA one, so do not make assumptions.

[EIRE-PLANER]

Ah yes arts degree bashing favourite past time of many of the ill educated, it seems. Personally i think a degree is a prerequisite but that s just my 2 cents worth. Ask any gradute you ll find the majority will tell you its a life changing experience and you ll be a well rounded individual by the time time you have completed your course of study(drinking):ok:. Funnily enough Trinity offer their physicists and mathematician s BA s :ugh:

[PilotPieces]

Captain Random, you forgot to mention that an fATPL can also get you any job in the fast food industry, and im not talking about having a sandwich on a Gulfstream 5 :}

[mizwings]

I have been in your situation ie ... the dilemma of choosing how to go about fulfilling your dream of becoming a pilot. I / nor anyone here can actually tell you which is the best route to take, but we can advise you based on our experience. People like Jox who have been in the industry for many moons have knowledge and experience in the industry. They have seen first hand how it has changed. I based my decision on the advice from people like that and have never looked back.. In those days the industry was a hell of a lot better than now, but I was also well aware of the fact that you are always a failed medical away from being out of a job. I have fulfilled my dream and it took many years, but I know that I made the right decision to work my way up from CC to the Cockpit. Whilst pushing that trolley I gained so much valuable experience and also an insight into the industry. Now, I am not suggesting that you go the CC route, but my advice is to get something else to fall back on. I was grounded due to ill health, but fortunately I was still able to work in the industry until I got my class 1 back.

I wish you all the best.