Queen's Building spotters Terrace to Reopen?

[b377]

I wish.

Has the Heathrow T3 spotters area reopenned?

Was it the top of Queen's Building that once had a big spectators area?

Vividly remember spending a day there with my dad in summer 1964. Loads of space and seats from which to watch the rich variety of LHR visitors coming and going

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I don't recall anywhere on T3?? It used to be the roofs of the QB and Terminal 2 which were open but they closed many years ago. When I was last able to view them - probably on the day the last Concorde flight took off - they were covered in all sorts of heating/ ventilating pipes so I think it's extremely unlikely that they would ever re-open for spectators. Those days are long gone...

Incidentally, I made contact with Flo Kingdon, one of the commentators, a few years back. She is in her 80s but was as bright as a button. Sadly, the other popular commentator, Stan Little, passed on many moons back..

[Teaboy24]

Hi all,

Have vague memories of a viewing area on top of T3. Watching first visit of PanAm 747 from it in early 70's or thereabouts.

Brgds

[b377]

What used to be QB is now T3 isn't it? Once also called Oceanic building prior to 1962.

More recently before the 9/11 thing, there was a horrid spotters structure/cage on roof of T2 I think, or was it T1, that had a model & souvenir shop near the access stairs from the ground floor.

[Teaboy24]

In good old days the viewing terrace used to be along the length of T2. There was a raised section reached by two narrow sets of steps. Below it used to be the commentary box. The terrace was accessed between T1 and T2 from the bus station by a raised walkway over the road. There also used to be a restaurant downstairs.

At a later date the terrace shrunk in length with access up a set of steps alongside T2.

The terrace I mentioned on T3 could well have only been open for the occasion of the arrival of the first 747. Airport PR was better in those days when spectators were welcomed.

[b377]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/3/6/0773638.jpg

[Teaboy24]

Happy days. Don't think we will see those sights again.

Not quite the same being parked up in the Heathrow Academy car park !!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

B377.. T3 is on the west side of the terminal area.

The three buildings on the east side are Terminal 1, Queen's Building (as shown in your picture) and Terminal 2.

[expedite08]

What a picture! Sadly never around in those days. Even airshows today have gone down hill! I thought things were meant to get better with time! I dread to think what sort of world my kids will live in one day!

[Skipness One Echo]

Ah yes the golden age.
When gay men knew their place was firmly in the closet.
When raping your wife wasn't a crime under English law.
When women spent their time in the kitchen and the home.
When the Police arrested AND prosecuted suspects.
When only the well to do had a passport and could afford to fly.
When the sicker parts of the Catholic clergy could fiddle with as many kids as it felt like with impunity.
When babies born out of wedlock were bastards, their mothers were cast out.
When cameras meant thinking in multiples of 36 or 24...

The world we leave our kids is way better than the one we were born into as perspective is the rarest commodity in the UK. Incidentally just back from a succesful day of shooting aircraft at Heathrow with a modern digital Nikon camera and an airband scanner. I am typing this on a laptop......
Tomorrow I am off to Aldergrove with easyJet. Let's be honest, we should keep fighting for what's right but don't kid yourself that the black and white world of the 1960s and 1950s was a better one.

*ends rant *

Nostalgia. Not what it used to be.

[Sobelena]

There still quite a few countries that provide good to excellent spectator facilities at major and regional airports. And they do so without compromising safety. I do find it odd that what could argueably be considered the number 1planespotting country in the world no longer offers facilities at any of it's major London airports. The income from visitors would more than pay for any and all security requirements and costs. The main problem stems from a lack of interest in aviation by those running airports.

[leader12uk]

Have vague memories of a viewing area on top of T3. Watching first visit of PanAm 747 from it in early 70's or thereabouts.

It would have been from on top of T2 or the QB. It landed on 28L. The viewing areas are never going to be re-opened. Did see on the new plans that there may be some sort of viewing area in the new terminal(s) when they are built but I suspect it may only be for passengers.

On a nostalgic note, how long could you make a drink last in the cafe area before being chucked out!!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<The income from visitors would more than pay for any and all security requirements and costs.>>

No way, I fear. I mentioned elsewhere that I often saw the viewing terraces on QB and T2 at Heathrow almost devoid of visitors. Back in the 50s and 60s the place was teeming, but aviation nowadays is a fact of life and does not hold people in awe. How many people stand on bridges over the M1 watching cars? Space at airports is at a premium because our airports are so small.

[b377]

Did you have to pay to get to the viewing terraces in circa 1964?

I can see three levels in the above pic (QB?) what was the diffeence apar from height? Today it would definitley cost more the higher you went.

Anoraks are scruffy undesirables to airport authorities they just get in the way of real business. They want tax paying passengers.

[Avman]

I think, HD, that's because they didn't have to pay the rip-off parking charges of today. In fact, in that era not many families had cars so most used public transport. Today the majority of people enjoy the convenience of using their own car. Visiting an airport that has no convenient and reasonably priced parking facilities will deter the average potential spectator. Proof of the pudding is that where airports do offer good facilities - be it the UK or elsewhere, the crowds are still there.

[Teaboy24]

First visit B747 at LHR - N735PA
-----------------------------------

The date was 12 Jan 70. Did not see it land but saw it in the afternoon parked directly in front of where I was stood, am pretty sure I was not on top of car park, assume it parked on Terminal 3, therefore was I on a terrace not normally available for public access.

Anybody else remember ?

[SpringHeeledJack]

Watching first visit of PanAm 747 from it in early 70's or thereabouts.

I too can remember seeing the PanAm 747, but from the Queen's Building. It was either the day it landed or the day after the first service, but it sure caused a stir, dwarfing all the other aircraft.

Does anyone remember when the 'bridge' part of the viewing terrace collapsed under the weight of hundreds of teenies who were freaking out at the sight of The Osmonds arriving from the US ? I seem to recall that there were many injured amongst the thousands who made the trip to the airport. They built the terrace back up again, though I can't remember how long that took.

I can't imagine the airport ever building any real facilities for spotters, it's one of those hobbies/interests that is sadly dying out. The yoofs have too many other diversions to want to hang around draughty airports and unless you're flying or working the airport doesn't want you there (and that's fair enough). I was last there before taking a flight perhaps 6 years ago and it was empty save for a few die hards, so lack of customers and security concerns put paid to it. I still remember the sausage rolls they served there in the 70's :p


regards


SHJ

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Did you have to pay to get to the viewing terraces in circa 1964? >>

Yes, and before and after too.

Car parking at Heathrow is another problem. All available parking space in the central area should be for passengers.

I'm a life-long aircraft spotter - 60 years plus now - but I also recognise the futility of trying to argue for spotting areas at some major airports. I honestly do not see that airport operators have any duty to provide viewing facilities for us.

[Skipness One Echo]

We only have to compare Heathrow with say Narita or Dusseldorf or even Schipol. It's a civilised way to say farewell to friends and relatives, wait on your flight in the sun ( it DOES happen ) and generally escape the purgatory that is the Terminal. These customers are *NOT* spotters and deserve a civilised facility along these lines. It's not a right we demand, it's just a sensible thing to do....

It's a culture thing and we're a little poorer for it. As to the hobby dying out, I used to agree with that however I think it's really very popular but something a lot of people come to later in life. I love the whole outdoors thing, and people get to a certain age where sitting at computer game is just tragic, particularly if one works at a desk in ones job!

[Avman]

it's one of those hobbies/interests that is sadly dying out.

I think it's quite the opposite. I see more than ever before. A large majority are more photographers than pure reggie spotters. I'd say aviation photography has been one of the most expanding hobbies in recent times - even more so with the advent of digital photography. I also see plenty of evidence (AMS for example) where families make it a picnic day out.

I honestly do not see that airport operators have any duty to provide viewing facilities for us.

Can't argue with that, but I think that both Heathrow and Gatwick still have areas which could be made available - and which would satisfy photographers too. I don't see it as a duty, but more of a PR exercise. With a little ingenuity it can definitely be a revenue earner. Say what you want but in my travels I still see plenty of evidence that members of the public (excluding the spotters/photographers) still enjoy watching aeroplanes. What has turned them away is when good facilities have been exchanged for inferior ones or (obviously) none at all.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I can remember going on the QB during the early 70s, usually at the weekends, and sometimes on weekdays when not at school. In those days the runways were 28R/10L and 28L/10R, but whoever was in the commentary box insisted on calling them 'runway 1' and 'runway 5' ... and I never understood why!

When I saved-up my pocket-money I got an airband radio (a Sharp FX-184Au - remember them?!) and used to listen to that. I can remember somebody asking me about the arrival of a particular flight, and they specifically mentioned how she was talking about 'runway 1/5' and the aircraft mentioned 28L/28R.

Another memory was an old guy doing an oil-painting of the view across the ages ... at one end were very old aircraft and colour-schemes from the 50s, across the middle were aircraft and schemes from the 60s and at the other end were the 70s. I wonder what became of the painting?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

In various publications on sale on the QB (some of which I still have), the runways were numbered as you mentioned. I guess Joe Public was more likely to understand that rather than "28L", "05R" or "33L".

[Ian Brooks]

Come to Manchester,s viewing park on a sunny day ( yes we do get them ) and it is packed, you have a reasonably priced car park, food and drinks available, a good shop and one or two preserved airliners too boot
I can remember many happy days on the QB, now what they should have done is convert the old tower into an observation area, that would be nice

Ian

[leader12uk]

In various publications on sale on the QB (some of which I still have), the runways were numbered as you mentioned. I guess Joe Public was more likely to understand that rather than "28L", "05R" or "33L".


It goes back to when all the runways were in use. It was also used by the authorities at the time. I remember my father using the designations when he was the out and about in the BAA police car (before they were taken over by the MET) -I used to go around with him if I wanted to see some of the exoctic visitors:) instead of sitting up in the QB all day - Try doing that today!!!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK.. tonight's test question for Heathrow buffs. What was "Waits Alley"?

[folkyphil]

I have many happy memories of Queen's Building viewing area, from 1964 until 1970.
Perhaps the "worst day for spotters" was on the occasion when The Beatles flew back from their first tour of USA. The PanAm B707 (I think) was offloaded in front of QB, to the delight of "millions" of screaming girls who completely swamped the viewing area!

For some obscure reason, there was a small recording booth on the southern part where, for the princely sum of 5 shillings, one could sing into a microphone, press a button, and eventually a floppy 45rpm disc would emerge.
I have, somewhere, a DREADFUL recording of me trying to sing "House of the rising sun", with a departing Vanguard as accompaniment.

From 1967 I worked as an ATCA in AIS (Flight Briefing Section), which was located, in those days, on the ground floor of the QB.

I watched the arrival of the first PanAm B747, having stayed-on after a night duty. However, I watched it from what I vaguely recall as being the top of T3 carpark (...or was it T3 itself?...beginning to have doubts about this now!...).
I think we went there because there was a chance that QB viewing area would not be open to the public (too early in the morning) when the aircraft landed.

Whilst in nostalgic mode, I will mention briefly the halcion days when coach operators could hire an Official Guide (picked-up from the Queen's Building) and enjoy a guided tour of Airside. My first recollection of these tours was in a Bedford OB, driving past rows of Stratocruisers and Constellations.
I organised a similar trip in the mid-60s for my school's aviation group; sadly no Connies or Strats by then...

No chance of QB being resurrected for spotters...security and economics have put paid to that, I fear.

Folkyphil.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<My first recollection of these tours was in a Bedford OB, driving past rows of Stratocruisers and Constellations.>>

Take a look at this snap of mine - you can even see the dirt on the coach window!!

G-ANUA and other Strats! London Airport 20 Aug 1958 (3rd one along is West African Airways) :: GANUA.jpg :: Fotopic.Net (http://www.brendan-mccartney.fotopic.net/p23196300.html)

I don't ever recall T3 roof being open, but my family joined me after a morning shift on T3 car park to watch the Space Shuttle atop it's 747 go by on it's way to Stansted. I made sure I spoke to it, then ran like hell to T3 to meet Ruth and the kids!

[rebellion]

HD says "I honestly do not see that airport operators have any duty to provide viewing facilities for us."

I disagree. Quite often I wave to a coach loads of kids being driven around the airport in Geneva, they are all pressed against the windows with excitment being driven around the airport. Great PR by the airport, it brings their airport into a positive role for them. Some thing local children around BAA airports don't experience.

Airports need an area for spotters, photographers, children and who ever!

Perhaps those children will aspire to work at the airport one day?

:8

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Airports need an area for spotters, photographers, children and who ever!
>>

The airports don't need any such thing - it's the spotters who want the airports to provide space for them!

I know there are many airports with such facilities but the subject of this thread is Heathrow and there is painfully insufficient space in the central area for people other than staff and passengers. Returning the roof gardens to full spotting facilities would cost a small fortune and in the current financial climate I for one would be very distressed to see such a waste of money.

[b377]

HD

that is one hell of a nice pic of a BOAC Strat lineup (I can count 7). I flew on BOAC Stratorcrusiers same year March/58 from NY to LHR then later in May to Caribbean, Kingston to connect with an Avianca L-1049. All at 4.3 years old.

Wonder if they were white or blue tails or one of each?

Have I got a good reason for being fond of these planes?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

b377 The ones which look "black" were blue but the third one along was white as it was used by West African Airways. The pic was taken with a Kodak Brownie!

I loved Strats and after the civil ones vanished I still enjoyed the various military ones which could be seen around the UK, like this one for example:
22626 Boeing C97 New York ANG Prestwick Airport 5 July 1965 :: 22626.jpg :: Fotopic.Net (http://www.brendan-mccartney.fotopic.net/p28288347.html)

A very interesting one I saw heading for London Airport in June 1959 was N404Q of Transocean Airlines.

[philbky]

The Oceanic Terminal (now T3) opened in 1961 replacing the "temporary" facilities used by long haul aircraft at Heathrow North Terminal (previously London Airport North).

At the time Queens Building was the European terminal and included a small domestic arrivals/departure area and many of the airport's offices. Above all of this was the Spectators' area which included the terraces, cafeteria and restaurant, an enthusiasts' shop and an exhibit area. Summer weekends and many summer weekdays offered a running commentary on the movements.

Entry was, if I remember 6d (2.5p) for under 16s, 1/- (5p) for adults.

The area gave excellent views over the Queens Building ramp, the approaches from the east to the parallel runways and of runway 23, not to mention views of the BEA, BOAC and Eagle hangars.

Before the Oceanic Terminal was opened the North Terminal movements could also be monitored but once the new terminal opened, a number of aircraft arrived before the Queens Building spectator area opened each day and departed after closure.

Those "in the know" would, when Queens Building closed, make their way to the Oceanic Terminal and onto the small spectator gallery on the roof which was free entry.

I was first told of this on a visit in 1962 (I lived in the Manchester area) and when I was regularly working in London in 1965/1966 I would drive out to the Oceanic Terminal on summer evenings and make my way onto the roof.

Whilst the spot was useless for observing anything on the Queens Building ramp or aircraft landing short in a westerly direction, westerly take offs could be observed plus, of course, the exotica on the ramp below.

The terminal was first modified in 1966/67 and the gallery remained for a short while but was closed sometime in 1967 as the roofspace was taken over with extra heating and ventilation equipment.

[Sobelena]

The airports don't need any such thing - it's the spotters who want the airports to provide space for them!

Sorry HD, I don't agree. Plenty of non-spotting members of the public enjoy a few hours at a busy airport.


there is painfully insufficient space in the central area for people other than staff and passengers.

Granted, but who said it has to be in the central area?

[Rampvan]

Granted, but who said it has to be in the central area?

Southside would make more sense as the sun is behind you most of the dayand any spectator traffic will not interfere with the central area. If built it would need to be incorporated into another structure and not a stand alone spectator facility, the building would need to be self sufficient with the spectators deck being of secondary importance to the host buildings main role, the entrance fee and any other profits would then become an added bonus to the profits made by this building and not an essential part as to whether or not the facility stay open. In this way even a small amount of spectators/spotters would still be seen as profit by the host building.

will it ever happen......no I don't think so :\ but hey miracles do happen :)

[b377]

I disagree, these facilities should reopen free for all including coffee.

These days of profiteering on everything, given half a chance, must be put to an end - the SOB fat cats at BAA know what this is all about!

Come on guys should them what you can do - get your pancartes out.

[Planemike]

It is surely not unreasonable to expect viewing facilities for an activity which only takes place at airports i.e. landing and taking of aircraft.......

There seems to be no difficulty in finding space for "duty free shops" which in truth are vast shopping malls purveying very little that cannot be bought on the average high street or retail park but you cannot go and watch aviation activity any where else but at an airport....

Planemike

[b377]

HD

re strat & hangar picture in post #27 where are those hangars located wrt
the terminal buildings and indeed how far were they from North terminal which was still operating when the photo was taken?

Hangars still exist?

[arem]

Brendan

I use to have a very similar picture taken on a junior school trip in June 57 - taken also with a box brownie as well!! I was an eleven year old at the time

b377

The building is Tech block A - almost unrecognisable today having had many extensions on the front - yes they did operate from North side in those days certainly up to the early sixties

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The Strats were over at the BOAC hangars on the east side of the field, just south of 28R threshold.

arem... I would have been 12 at the time you took your pics so we're pretty close in age. Heathrow was a huge part of my life for 50++ years but I'm still learning things about the place..

[Jumbo Driver]

OK.. tonight's test question for Heathrow buffs. What was "Waits Alley"?

I see no reply yet, HD, so I'll have a stab ...

This seems to ring a faint bell - and I may be completely wrong - but is (was) it an area where a Captain Wait took a "shortcut", perhaps where technically he shouldn't have been? Just a guess ...

Such ponderings prompt me to recall an incident from my early days on the "10" when we frequented the Hotel cul-de-sac, just S of the BOAC Load Control Offices, close to where Alcock & Brown were at the time and in good view from QB roof, of course. After landing, we either mis-heard, or were cleared incorrectly to, H5 instead of H9 (perhaps it was the other way round?). Anyway, by the time we had just passed the only empty gate in the Hotels, it became apparent that "our" gate was occupied and there was no way out. We then had no escape and endured a rather embarrassing delay as we had then to shut down and await a tug to manoeuvre us back to our correct gate!

So, my guess is that "Waits Alley" is/was a route or shortcut taken by an erstwhile Captain Wait ... but exactly where it would be at LHR I wouldn't know ...

JD
:)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Jumbo Driver... You narrowly missed the £10 million prize which was being donated by a foreign gent from Africa who emailed me earlier!!

Waits' Alley was the unfinished runway #3, which would have been 15C. In the Viscount G-AMOK they taxied out in not-so-good vis and lined up on what they thought was 15R. It must have come as a surpise when they hit the iron barriers across some WIP!

It was probably me that gave you the wrong gate number as I became quite adept at that.. One day we mixed up the gates for an Iberia and an Alitalia flight but the catering trucks went to the correct gates. The phone went white hot half an hour later when the Alitalia manager found his plane loaded up with Paella!

[Jumbo Driver]

Ah well, I was quite close ...

Hence the expression "running AMOK", I suppose ...

JD
;)

[akerosid]

I always feel that the BAA is being very dishonest when it comes to aircraft enthusiasts; on the one hand, it has the public pretence of "welcoming" spotters and valuing their input as "second pairs of eyes", but in reality, it has pushed them further and further away. The reality is, no matter how much we may dislike it, is that airport management perceives enthusiasts as scruffy types best kept away.

I wonder if the expected change in ownership of LGW (I'd hoped MAN Airport might be involved) might encourage a change in attitude there; clearing out the BAA bods and having people with a bit of common sense; LGW could equal LHR as an attractive airport (it really should have, long ago, but was held back by the BAA); a new, forthright, more aggressively "go getting" image, which would include making the airport more attractive to all visitors, might form part of this; even if they don't provide facilities within the airport, why not do so (as MAN did) around the perimeter. Doesn't take much imagination ... just more than the BAA has.

[Skipness One Echo]

Because Plod has a major hard on every time something can be done to combat the "terrorist" threat and keeping non travellers out of the airports is the DFT's preferred way.
Look at the way Andy Burnham, former Head of Anti Terrorism at Scotland Yard reacted when that silly moo got Lord Medelhson with the green custard. He lectured him on giving up his Police escort saying that a member of the public could have been hurt "if the custard had been acid".

You can't actually argue with these "professionals". Be vigilant Britain.....

[paulc]

Aeroskid, agree 100% - facilities for the public (including enthusiasts) could be provided if the BAA had the corporate will to do so. All the lack of facilities does is force enthusiasts to look for other vantage points which may lead to other problems. I wish they would take a leaf out of Amsterdam / Frankfurt / Munich /Zurich / Dusseldorf and Manchester book all of which provide excellent facilites for the public to watch aircaft. People would not mind paying a nominal fee or going through a security check but the open 'grandstand' at LHR is a joke.

What does LHR, the busiest international airport in the World offer spectators - sod all! - with LGW offering slightly less.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<What does LHR, the busiest international airport >>

Depends how you arrive at that claim. In terms of aircraft movements it can't hold a candle to some US airports and even Charles de Gaulle is ahead now, I believe. Go to O'Hare sometime - twice the daily movement rate of Heathrow and many of them international flights.

[Skipness One Echo]

Heathrow Director you are getting cynical with age. Heathrow carries more international passengers by far. At the US airports the vast bulk of flying is domestic.
CDG is ahead in movements as it has four runways and more capacity for smaller aircraft whereas Heathrow has only two and is focused on larger capacity aircraft. In fact I was astonished to book a LHR-AMS and discover KLM are using the Fokker 50 again.

I thought props at Heathrow were dead and buried.