13yrs of hell

[striking a chord]

I have read to 18mths of hell as an outsider its getting a bit long- so lighten up. .I've survived 13yrs in aviation as a pilot and it hasn't been easy . .. .How would you like to go for an interview with a major airline and be asked who will look after your husband or on another occassion what about your sex life?. .or we prefer military pilots we really mean men. .. .What about when you get your dream job and your male collegue get all the attention on the sim ,but after work when everyone wants to get in your knickers unless of course you look like the back of a bus ; but chances are if you do you wouldn't have been hired in the first place.. .. .Yes I've had comments my bum, breasts, visible panty, makup etc some times funny others not.. .. .Some guys are gentlemen others friends some are not.. .. .At least this ladys guys on her clip board were partially clothed not like I've seen on some notice boards in some crew rooms. .. .You have to be very very brave to complain. You want to fit in, survive, be accepted . . .Other women can be worst with smug comments such as "I have never had any problems!" some kind of martyrism I beleive. .. .This is a message to both sexes If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen

[Percy De Havilland]

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say.. .. .Any chance of your phone number?

[Kaptin M]

Or if you can't take the heat, stay in the kitchen! <img border="0" title="" alt="" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .Would I be incorrect in saying that aeroplane cockpits have been traditionally viewed as male domains, and although there are a couple of female F/O's in the company where I work, there is a "culture" change that has to necessarily be made whenever we (males) fly with these ladies.. .Not operational procedures, but changes to our personal behaviour (eg. I need to use more discretion when "adjusting" myself than I would with a male co-pilot) and vocabulary, (a) out of respect for the woman, and ([i]b) to avoid any possibility of a sexual overtures or a sexual harassment charge.. .. .Sure it's a purely professional relationship - the multi-crew environment - however there will ALWAYS be certain personal behaviour aspects that spill across the line delineating each member's role.. .Unless of course no-one talks, except for SOP's!

[HugMonster]

Why would anyone want such pictures on their clipboard, partially-clad or not? What does it say about someone's attitude, professionalism or attention span? What message would it give a visitor to the flight deck?. .. .As I read the previous thread, the problem was not sexist attitudes, or "glass ceilings" or anything to do with those. I understood it to be about misuse of the rules against sexism for use as revenge for showing up poor performance and attitude.

[Captain Moth]

I think kangaroo courts are out of date. .you cannot try people on pprune

[Chuck Ellsworth]

striking a cord:. .. .If some guy wants to get in your knickers you can always say no , I already have one as*h**e in there already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[overstress]

I fly the A320. What's a clipboard? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Bus429]

It's a great shame that, in these enlightend times, sexist issues are still prevalent. IMHO there is nothing smart in making sexist comments that degrade and humiliate. Percy, you should be ashamed!. .I remember, whilst working for a maintenance company nearly 20 years ago, a female mechanic (the only one) was made redundant during lean times. One of the reasons given for her dismissal? She couldn't lift a (707) brake unit on her own! Who could?

[striking a chord]

cat driver. . I only would have to say no if asked! and the answ is p off .so why do we females have to put up with such sh** I'm sure change the roles you would not like it . .put on a captains hat and you think you are captain of the Enterprise do you watch Star Trek?. .Stop living in a fantasy world, we are not impressed!prehaps the cabin crew are but pilots are a bit wiser .

[Shadowpurser]

Striking a chord I can appreciate what you say but you ceratinly are wrong in some of your comments.. .. .1. I think you'll find that most cabin crew are not impressed by "Captain Kirk" pilots either - maybe if you took time out to talk to them about your feelings you may indeed find this out - they are part of "your team" as well, and will back you up if you want to make a grievance.. .. .2. Which airline only employs female F.O's who don't "look like the back of a bus" because I for one would love to work in those "glamourous" conditions.. .. .3. LASTLY. No one is gonna take away from you the achievement of working in a male dominated enviroment for the past 13 years. You have paved the way for other women to take up the role - such as my girlfriend (who is an F.O. who are now making the career as pilot a more acceptable one for the fairer sex. BUT you cannot condem ther female pilots for not feeling the same way as you do. You may have had it tough but things are indeed different now - maybe you company needs to be brought into the 21st century a bit - I don't know. What I do know is that she is a woman sure of her position, skill, and competence, and she will follow the rules and exercise her right to free speech or complain if need be. However she is a strong independant woman who meets challenges head on and plays "guys" at their own game - using what she's got and often shocking them!!! More power to her!!!!! Everyone's differnet that's what makes life interesting.

[Shadowpurser]

Sorry bout spelling and missed out letters - I'm real tired. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

[Tan]

striking a chord . .. .Gee I’ve flown with quite a few female F/O, some were good, and some were not so good. Fortunately they all had good attitudes that helped make for a safe operation. . .. .Generally speaking I found that the females had better attitudes then some of the male F/O’s. It was more difficult to fly with females, as others have pointed out, because you always had to be on your guard (read best behavior) because of this sex harassment issue. IMHO the issue has gotten completely out of hand. . .. .On layovers, boys will be boys, I make no excuses for them. But I’ve also seen some pretty raunchy female crewmembers, so give it a rest... . .. .I will agree that there is a double standard out there and it’s by no means just restricted to aviation. However there is a bigger problem in the overcompensating for it, thus creating injustices for the male... .. .Flying is suppose to be fun, you don't appear to be having fun anymore..

[Chuck Ellsworth]

striking a cord:. .. .Lighten up, I was trying to show you I was in your corner.. .. .I assure you I understand the cockpit enviorement and the gender issue, like most males here I am gender blind when it comes to CRM.. .. .I do not need you to suggest I think like a captain chances are very good I was one before you were born.. .. .So once again I was not denergrating you, lighten up.. .. .And in all fairness you brought up the subject of trying to get in your knickers.. .. ................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[RichT]

I had the pleasure of flying with one lady captain in my short career. It was a great experience, not because she was a woman just had a great sense of humour and was very professional.

[MaximumPete]

striking a chord. .. .I'm truly sorry that you have had to suffer this way. Your true friends will be there for you. I know!. .. .To the misoginists out there I believe there is a place for lady pilots on the flight-decks of modern aircraft.. .. .Remember it takes years to build a reputation and as many seconds to lose it!. .. .Take Care. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[PSD]

No matter what ever; Males working together with females is, and will always be, a litle tense but a lot more interesting than else.. .. .I am not a pilot yet. I'm an engineer designing medical procesequipment. Not many girls here! And I miss them :-) !. .. .So guys and girls; Of course lets work together. Both accepting the nature mutual attraction. We cant fight that, nor should we.. .As long as we go along with respect for each other there is no problem. That goes for guys moderating there behaviors AS WELL AS girls not beeing so touchy!. .. .Peter

[Belgian Beauty]

SAC yes we can see that you pilots are so much more wiser than us cabin crew is that PERHAPS why you can't spell. It seems to me that members of the opposite sex can work together fine its just a sad few who have a feminist chip on their shoulder and can't take a bit of light banter who spoil it for everyone else. Its the same in every environment where members of the opposite sex work together not just in the air. Get down off your high horse and get a life. Surely you have more important issues to worry about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 08:27: Message edited by: Belgian Beauty ]</small>

[MaximumPete]

No good at spelling!. .. .Not clever either!. .. .MP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Hot 'n' High]

SAC - while it is dreadful that you have been asked such things I think you missed the point; that there was something of a vendetta against MP by someone who appears not to be making the grade professionally. Such events undoubtedly happen elsewhere too - but that is no reason to condone her actions as MP's ex-management appear to have done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[flapsforty]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">. .Stop living in a fantasy world, we are not impressed!prehaps the cabin crew are but pilots are a bit wiser </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">SAC, please explain to this dumb flight attendant why it is not OK for males to discriminate you because they percieve your gender as being inferior to theirs, while it is at the same perfectly acceptable for you to denigrate cabin crew because you percieve their intelligence to be lower than your own?. .. .A team is made up of different people.. .In a good team these differences enhance the sum of the total.. .In a d bad team people denigrate eachother for being different. . .. .SAC, the weak kick down and lick up; the strong don't need the kind of cr*ppy attitude you are displaying here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 14:20: Message edited by: flapsforty ]</small>

[Belgian Beauty]

Flaps forty. .. .Well said. .I applaude you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[wallabie]

Female pilots in the cockpit ?????. .. .What year are we ??? I must have overslept !!!!. .I thought we had that one wraped up by now.. .. .I have flown with female pilots both as F/O and now Captain. Some were good, some not so good ( Did I read that somewhere ? ) Some were nice, some others........well, not so nice ! I've seen the same with guys exept some had dandruffs and didn't change to go into the bunk which made it even more unpleasant. Yuk !! . .Thanks to you girls for having given me the opportunity not to talk about money, cars and start talking about feelings only when drowning and sobbing in a glass of beer.. .Don't listen to proffessor Higgins and do not behave like men.. .I've learned great tips about make up and I now walks in high heel shoes without twisting my ankle !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .Sure, some of you are so cute that one might be tempted to be very very very weak and frolick. . .In my view, the sensible thing to do then is not to be rostered with the lady and take your own chances in civies !. .. .Love you girls <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 17:39: Message edited by: wallabie ]</small>

[LimaNovember]

Wallabie,. .. .No you did not sleep, and yes, the year is 2002. And I`m equally amazed that female/no female/good/or not so good is still a subject among professional pilots.. .. .If I have had "problems" with female flying staff, it would have been with cabin staff rather than with a female cockpit colleague. I had the pleasure of flying with a female first officer for the first time in the mid 80`s. At that time having red fingernails in a cockpit was not, shall we say something you saw every day. Did she do a good job? Off course she did. Did I have male first officers doing not such a good job? Off course I had. Have I worked with female first officers since then? Yes, many. And guess what. They have all been great colleagues. By the way, the first female pilot I flew with is no Director Of Operations for a major carrier. Not bad, for a female. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[striking a chord]

I am not having a go at cabin crew, and my apologies, they probably have a worse deal.. .I am just stating my side how I have seen it.. .UK is the worst offender for being politically incorrect in the western world and I have worked else where. A bit of power and a handlebar moustache we won the war etc, there is less equallity in the UK than America , NZ ,& AUS. europe I do not know prehaps fill me in. .Its about time women in the Uk in aviation can work as equals not have to be better.

[Oleo]

One thing I have noticed, is that many well intentioned male colleagues make the comment that "she's a good operator" as a compliment to female colleagues. . .. .That's fine, but I have rarely (never?) heard them pass comment on male counterparts. It seems to be that a male's competance is taken as given. We will always be held under closer scrutiny and maybe if we have had an off day we are not cut the human slack given to the boys. I don't like it if I don't get teased about an occasional, ahem, "less than perfect landing" as I seems that was just what they expected.

[Frederic]

Dear Flaps Forty,. .. .We men, don't discriminate you because we think your gender is inferior to ours, .... .We discriminate you because we know that you are easy victims to a (bad) joke. And there is NOTHING, no NOHTING as funny as having a woman misunderstand it and freak out on you ! ;-) &lt;- For you sensitive people out there,this symbol implies I was making a J-O-K-E There, told the truth, happy now? . .No seriously now. I love flying with the gals and I realy hope they stop thinking they are any less part of the team! Most of the time, the female pilots are taking my humor better than many of the male ones. We have many female pilots in our company and i sincerely hope the percentage will increase in the future! Don't let a few dumbass macho's mess it up. And don't take what guys say too seriously either. It's often a test to see how you react. That or it is a genuine compliment. People who say real insulting stuff have no place in the cockpit, me thinks!. .. .BTW: Eeeer, Belgian beauty, where are you from?. .. .Big Hugg, Icy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Shadowpurser]

At the end of the day you find that the peolpe who are guilty of being "naughty" to or with pilots or crew (male or female) are normally like that with most people in everyday life not just at work. Information on these individuals actions and attitudes DOES NOT GO UNNOTICED and DOES NOT STAY SECRET for long (Especially when the crew get hold of it). We don't let it affect our jobs when we're at work, but when we're downroute these people had better have a good book, or anyone out there ever heard "not sure, I think we're all going to bed", and then bumped into the crew in the bar round the corner? A job in the airlines can be great fun,and you'll earn some decent dosh if your on the right side of the flight deck door. We're a community who work together and look after our own. Step out of line in that community and it can be a very lonely job - think about it - you know who you are. NEVER BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU - AND NEVER TRY TO GO WHERE YOUR NOT INVITED!

[Skye Pilot]

Oleo,. .. .I think you'll find that the term 'a good operator' will be used by pilots who genuinely believe that the PILOT they are refering to is just that - a good operator. If you hear that someone has refered to you as a good operator, take it as a professional complement, Your gender has nothing to do with it.. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Whirlybird]

Striking a Chord,. .. .I don't work for the airlines, but I'm not even remotely surprised by anything you've said. Prejudice against women is alive and well and common, and not just in aviation, but in any profession which until recently was male orientated. My cousin, a very senior tax consultant, has described things similarly. So has a solicitor friend. Until I started learning to fly I'd usually worked in fields where women were common and in the majority, so the attitudes you speak of came as a complete shock to me. Not any more unfortunately.. .. .Guys, there is a difference between jokes made deliberately to wind us up, and genuine prejudice. The first are fine. When I was working for my CPL ground exams, I was warned that one of the chaps teaching the course was known for his sexist comments. As the only woman on the course I found it out soon enough, retaliated in kind, and we had a lot of fun. I told him he had a reputation for being sexist, but that I knew he wasn't; he just pretended to be. "Damn", he said. "You've found me out". He was actually totally respectful. This is very very VERY different from the men who protest that they see women as equals who quite obviously don't, and yes, I can tell the difference; I get a lot of practice.. .. .SAC, as you say, we're "supposed" to put up with it, or pretend it isn't happening. It "isn't done" to complain about it. If you do, most guys are either genuinely surprised, or protest they're not like that at all. Well, some aren't of course - but methinks some doth protest too much. I used to just accept it all, but I'm not sure now that it's the right thing to do. If you do that, things won't change. But if you complain, yes, you're unpopular. I got accused way back on PPRuNe of being "over sensitive about gender" and it upset me at the time. I don't think I care any more what anyone says though; I'm tougher than I used to be.. .. .So SAC, thanks for bringing this up. You're getting misunderstood, but that's only to be expected. Sorry you've had 13 years of hell. I guess we were both born around 100 years too early. Because things will change, but probably rather slowly.