Some unity on paying for Type Ratings and line training?

[Pilot Chris]

Just to throw an idea out there...

It would seem that for the average newly qual wannabe, it is very difficult to pay attention to those who say 'don't pay for type rating/ line training' when you are under the impression that there are many many others who are willing to pay. In other words, you feel isolated and think that if you don't pay, someone else will, so you have to pay or you will lose out and never get a job.

Perhaps the sum total of this is hundreds of newbies all thinking that the rest are paying so they are missing out = people paying for TR's and line training.

Has there ever been any sort of unofficial 'union' for newly quals e.g. some sort of organisation that could send out a unified message to newly quals and remove that feeling of isolation/ desperation?! Some sort of co-ordination against applying for such schemes?

This is working on the basis that no-one actually wants to pay for a TR and work for free but those that are able feel forced to by the lack of other ways in.

Is it naive to believe that if an airline launches a pay to fly scheme and no one applies then these schemes might die out?

Or would there always be a supply of those willing to pay, whether from abroad, wealthy family etc, that will always scupper such an idea?

Just an attempt at a constructive approach as opposed to the usual barrage of abuse thrown at newbies, try not to bite.

[adverse-bump]

Id sign up for a DONT PAY TO FLY group! I already have a job and a couple of thousand hours and thinks its a disgrace that these idiots pay to work!!!

[Philpaz]

Problem is that the only ones who care either already have a job
I already have a job and a couple of thousand hours
Or cant afford it. I disagree with it but cant blame people that have a few grand tied to the silver spoon hanging out there rear paying to live the dream.

[Flintstone]

You can add me to the list of those who care but already has a job although I'm beginning to wonder why I bother.

I've been banging on for years about this becoming the norm and now it is. I'd love to think there'll come a time when the wannabees cry "Enough!" and keep their hands in their pockets but I think you'll wait a long time to see that. It seems to me that the least sympathy comes from those who paid their way in and don't seem to care about those who now follow.

[Philpaz]

That Virgin advert wont have helped your cause either. He's got everyones dream bloody job! Even the most hard line anti-pay protestor would stump up for that RHS.

[Mach086]

Adverse-bump,

I think you are stepping on the poster's point aren't you?

Yes, YOU have a job. Well done-have a medal. But the point is there are poor low hour cadets out there who don't and as the poster alluded to- they feel isolated and feel the need to get a TR themselves. And you call them idiots? What if after 2 years they still haven't realised their dream through no fault of their own - i.e not even one interview. Are they idiots for trying to get a foot on the ladder? Or should they wave a white flag and walk back to the stuffy office they left in order to accomplish a dream.

People percieve that the way to get jobs are via a TR, so everyone pays for a TR. How did it start? it's like the chicken and the egg.

The poster is right. I'd sign up for a level playing field so no cadet feels that to get ahead, they have to get a TR.

I have budgeted for a FI rating. But I can get nowhere near to a TR.

[dartagnan]

dont worry too much, banks dont give any money for type rating!!!

paying for a t-r is OVER, FINITO!!!!:E

[The Deec]

Just like sex really. As long as guys are hard up and desperate enough they will hand over the cash without question .
I for one would sign up for the deal... the boycotting of paying for TR'S that is....:ugh:

[wheresmyelephant]

To continue with the anology above, instead of paying for it when hard up, or late, why not just cop off with the fat bird and get on with it instead of going round to the docks and getting rogered for money.

[felixflyer]

What it needs is BALPA to get involved. Are wannabes eligible to join BALPA? If they dont pay the fees then they may not fight their cause.

If FO's getting laid off to make room for the pay to fly crowd however then that is a diffferent matter. := I dont know if this is happening yet.

By the way could someone please explain the difference between a pay to fly scheme and something like CTC which gives you a 6 month placement on £1000 a month. (That you have paid for) If the £1000 comes out of your original £60,000 then what is the difference? This is not a dig at CTC. Im just struggling to find the difference.

[potkettleblack]

The pilots unions have always welcomed wannabes within their ranks and over the years there have been posts here on pprune reminding people of the ability to join as an associate member. This would give you access to the members areas of sites and give you some good gen on the industry as a whole. Unfortunately very few people join up as they see it as yet another cost even though it is such a pitifully small amount.

Read all about it here:-

BALPA - Membership (http://www.balpa.org/About-BALPA/Membership.aspx)

[portsharbourflyer]

The unions have little interest in opposing self sponsored type rating schemes and while I would recommend union membership for certain reasons, it certainly will not help with regard to ending self sponsored type ratings. Infact both IPA and BALPA websites offer advice on undertaking self sponsored type ratings.

While I don't necesarily agree with self funded line training schemes, I will accept that everyones situation is different and you need to use whatever resources you have to get that first job. The fact remains paying for a rating for many can be economically more viable option than spending a year or two on instructors pay followed by a three or four year bond in a turbo prop job on a fairly meagre salary.

Adverse Bump, you say don't pay to fly, when I was a full time instructor I had to use savings and a credit card to support living expenses, the job did not pay enough to live on, as such it was costing me money to do the job (hence I was paying to fly) not to mention the enourmous pay cut I took to become a full time instructor. If I was still in my turbo prop job I would still be borrowing money to support my living expenses (especially as I have a family to support now)
If I wanted to get air taxi work I would need to go and pay to fly hours on a piston twin to meet the single pilot ops requirement, so ineffect is there any difference between someone hiring a twin to build hours to get air taxi work and someone paying for hours on a 737.

Philpaz, not eveyone was born with a silver spoon, some people actually have had sucessful careers and earned the money to fund training. The free market system that has allowed you to undertake self funded training for a CPL/IR has also spawned the SSTR.

[Pilot Chris]

With regards to the difference between CTC and pay to fly, if you go back a year then it would seem there was a big difference; with CTC you were pretty much guaranteed a full time job after the 6 months so it can perhaps be described as a sponsorship scheme as such, or maybe 'pay to train, be paid to fly' .

Now however, if the line training only lasts 6 months, then yes it appears it is effectively pay to fly; however, it has been argued that there aren't many places where you can get a fully accomodated fATPL, MCC, Advanced handling, TR and 6 months line training for £47500 (bond minus funds returned)?? Or maybe you can, I haven't done enough research to have a valid opinion on that, am working on the basis that Ryanair for example demand £20,000 for TR alone (not accomodated). And note the IF, there haven't been enough 6 month only placements to demonstrate this is now the norm.

I don't think BALPA would be of much help in this instance? Needs to be some sort of independent attempt?

[Philpaz]

Philpaz, not eveyone was born with a silver spoon, some people actually have had sucessful careers and earned the money to fund training

Your quite right, I have a career that pays more than most captains, I work hard and pay as I go, which is why i'm much more prudent with what i'm spending my hard earned on. If it was someone elses money it would be a different story. I dont agree with paying for line training, but an SSTR is just another take on the bond system really. Your paying either way. Other than the costs involved i dont see any relevant comparison between paying for 737 hours and slogging it out instructing and taxying. I cant say from first hand experience, but i imagine, the first few hours in the 737 RHS are far less stressfull to the man in the LHS if your a 3000 hour TP FO compared to you as a 200 Hour Piper FO.

The problem is that the whole buying your way in to the industry can be looked at from so many angles. Most Integrated students, if they were honest, would say its the chance of a job rather than the quality of training that drew them to that route. The fore mentioned difference between Bond and SSTR, the list goes on.....Its all about money, how much you've got and your willingness to spend it on the dream!

[The Mixmaster]

It amazes me that experienced pilots consistently make posts on pprune claiming that it's the wannabes' fault for letting the self sponsored TR become the norm. You people need to take a long hard look at yourselves and the responsibility YOU in conjunction with BALPA have in protecting the industry for future generations.

[Duck Rogers]

Ignore me.

Too many windows open at once.

[Flintstone]

....an SSTR is just another take on the bond system really. Your (sic) paying either way.

How so?

SSTR. Pilot/cadet pays up front.

Bond. Pilot/cadet agrees to reimburse company on a pro-rata basis if they leave. Don't leave, don't pay. I've had three type ratings this way and it's not cost me a penny. My salary was the same as those of people who joined with a type rating so actually I've not paid.




It amazes me that experienced pilots consistently make posts on PPRuNe claiming that it's the wannabes' fault for letting the self sponsored TR become the norm. You people need to take a long hard look at yourselves and the responsibility YOU in conjunction with BALPA have in protecting the industry for future generations.

That's the problem with generalisations, they are often easy to prove wrong. I've never paid for a TR, quite the opposite, so how have I contributed to the problem? On the other hand you now have pilots in the sytem who bought their TR/jobs. Now, if you said they owed the current crop of wannabees a helping hand I'd agree with you. They contributed to the SSTR timebomb, they should help sort it out.

I think though that you'll find that by their very nature many of those who ignored the consequences of their actions when they paid for their TR probably don't give a toss about those struggling now. Try pinning one of them down and asking what help they'll give. I did. Nearly two weeks ago I asked a RYR FO on here what he'd do to help new cadets avoid paying for a TR. Still waiting for the spineless bugger to answer.

[portsharbourflyer]

Philpaz, no one is disputing that the instructing/ air taxi route produces a better more rounded pilot (also note I am an ex-instructor and was very briefly a turboprop FO until laid off last year, not a 200hour jobseeker).

The other thing that has contributed to the SSTR culture is actually the switch from the CAA to the JAA training system, on the old self improver route the 700 hour requirement for a full CPL meant it was necessary to instruct to build hours, with the introduction of JAA and the fact a full CPL could be held a 200 hours has given low hour pilots the option of going straight to a type rating, and airlines have exploited this fact.

[Philpaz]

My salary was the same as those of people who joined with a type rating so actually I've not paid.



Lucky you, I think you'll find that most operators will pay their cadets a cadet salary, and in most cases you will avoid this by holding the TR. Even in todays market their are few operators trying to get you to pay for your second TR, so your argument holds less water.
My point is that as a CADET, and we are in the wannabes forum here, you will pay either way. SSTR = pay up front but get a higher salary. Bond = pay nothing, or monthly depending on how you look at it and get a lower salary.
It all falls down when people get the TR without the job offer.

Oh and ports,

so ineffect is there any difference between someone hiring a twin to build hours to get air taxi work and someone paying for hours on a 737.

Just pointing out that there was.

[The Mixmaster]

That's the problem with generalisations, they are often easy to prove wrong. I've never paid for a TR, quite the opposite, so how have I contributed to the problem? On the other hand you now have pilots in the sytem who bought their TR/jobs. Now, if you said they owed the current crop of wannabees a helping hand I'd agree with you. They contributed to the SSTR timebomb, they should help sort it out.

I think though that you'll find that by their very nature many of those who ignored the consequences of their actions when they paid for their TR probably don't give a toss about those struggling now. Try pinning one of them down and asking what help they'll give. I did. Nearly two weeks ago I asked a RYR FO on here what he'd do to help new cadets avoid paying for a TR. Still waiting for the spineless bugger to answer.

Once again the attitude of lets blame the wannabe's is astounding!! How can you lay the blame at the door of those with X thousands of debt, some with families and others to feed, for trying to get their foot in the door of the industry.

People who previously have paid for their type ratings are victims of market conditions. There is no way in to FR as a low hour cadet without buying a Type Rating so, please explain, how can a RYR FO change that for new cadets?

Seems like you're fortunate enough Flinstone to have been hired by a company thatdoes not enter into SSTR's. Others, especially in this climate, are not so fortunate.

[Flintstone]

Mixmaster.

Not counting the school where I instructed I have worked at three companies. Neither my current company nor the last one would dream of asking a pilot to pay for their type rating. The other asked me to pay, I declined, they dropped the idea. I've turned down jobs that required me to buy a TR and undoubtedly that slowed my career progress so please don't insinuate that I've done nothing to help. Search my previous posts. For pretty much ten years I've been droning on about this and I'm now being proved right. God, I wish I weren't.


...how can a RYR FO change that for new cadets?

Being inside the company they've more chance than most. If they can't be bothered.........

The call here is for help and solidarity with which I agree. Where better place to start with the very people who contributed to this mess? As we've seen though it's 'I'm alright Jack'. They've poisoned the waterhole and moved on. No point getting annoyed with us who have gone out of our way to discourage the practice, those of us who have stayed away from these companies. Take it up with 'them'. You'll have noticed though the deafening silence. How many 'thems' have joined this conversation? How many have proposed any action to help out? Don't get angry with me, ask them. If you can't see that I don't know how to explain it in simpler terms.


.....X thousands of debt....families and others to feed....trying to get their foot in the door of the industry.

Been there, done that. <Sob story> Sold everything we owned. Moved across the world (twice). Lived with family and friends, lived apart from my family for months at a time, saw my children sleep on other peoples floors and sofas.......... Am I the only one? No. Do I want sympathy? No. What did I do about it? Took any job I could to pay the bills until a flying job came along. Those who insist that they have to borrow more money so their first job can be on a Boeingbus are detached from reality.

Nobody in their right mind starts flying training without a plan 'B'. It's like taking off without a viable alternate. Some might not like it but their plan 'B' could turn out to be a white van, 7.5 tonne lorry or the night shift in a Tesco warehouse. Not ideal but it pays the bills.

[ei-flyer]

is letting your kids grow up living in other peoples houses really any more moral than cadets paying for a type rating? i know its a sensitive issue and i dont mean to offend but just something i picked up on. we all make sacrifices in our own individual ways.

---

happy landings.

[Flintstone]

They were more than happy to stay with their uncles and aunts for a few weeks but thanks for asking :rolleyes:


I'm sure Mixmaster and others would welcome any constructive suggestions.

[Nearly There]

Well said Flinstone, I know at one point I considered buying a job or a T/R at least, but slapped myself in the face and snapped out of it, the reason I considered it was for progression, after the ME/IR then MCC on a 737, and enjoying the multi crew environment I wanted more and who doesnt, the low houred jobs where drying up quick and the only guys I know getting in where ones who paid, but at what cost?
Finacialy yes I could afford it, but the effect on the industry of these schemes is diabolical and it will continue to spiral unless people stop.

Unity, I am all for it and count me in, but things will not change, there will always be the one, you only need to look at recent threads on here, where is the best place to do a A320/737/CJ etc T/R with L/T, within the last 12 months or so on here we have even had someone looking for hour building on a 757, I kid you not!

For me its the instructing route, ride out the storm and see what happens the otherside, the easy credit has dried up, equity in property has fallen, no more 95-120% LTV mortgages, so heres hoping the pay to fly dries up with it. If these schemes cant be supported then things will change, but I doubt it , there will always be the ones who pay.

[EpsilonVaz]

I paid for my type rating, and line training. Why? It was either that, or get an instructors rating, and fight it out in the current climate. I had the funds available, so I paid, worked hard, and now have a contract at the end of it. I've flown with Captains who've experienced past recessions, some of them paid for their ratings at the time also.

It's worked out well for me, if I had to make the choice again, knowing the outcome, I'd definately make the same one. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but if done correctly, and with a bit of luck, it can be a good way to progress your career.

[The Mixmaster]

Not counting the school where I instructed I have worked at three companies. Neither my current company nor the last one would dream of asking a pilot to pay for their type rating.

May I refer you to this point:

Seems like you're fortunate enough Flinstone to have been hired by a company thatdoes not enter into SSTR's. Others, especially in this climate, are not so fortunate.

It seems like we both agree that paying for TR's is not right, yet our view is polarised by who has the power to stop it. Personally I'd argue Captain's/LTC's have the power to stop SSTR'sand indeed the decline of T's and C's through union action via BALPA (FR excluded due to their lack of union represenation). You seem to think if every wannabe stopped paying for TR's then the schemes would stop. My conclusion is I guess we're both too idealistic! The SSTR schemes have been allowed infiltrate their way in. Shame on everyone for not making more of a stand.

[Another Old Fogey]

Its completely ignorant of current circumstances, for you guys, many of whom seem to already have jobs, to rant on about not paying for Type Rating and Line Training.

Are you guys really aware of what is happening in this current market? There's very few jobs available (translate as Ryanair and a very few others) and those jobs that are there require payment for a Type Rating.

If you were a 20 year old who had just completed fATPL, and thus was massively in the hole financially, don't you realise if you DON'T for for a TR, you simply won't get hired. So your 60K stg. is wasted - you simply can't go forward with 200 hours in this current market. Really the only option is, when you are so far into the hole, to go the extra step and get the TR and maybe that will lead to a job, because standing still with your 200 hours without a TR won't get you anywhere.

And don't give any homilies about "be a FI", or "there are jobs out there - you just have to look" - these are unrealistic as FI's aren't needed in the worst recession for 100 years and there simply are no jobs for low hours guys.

[Bambe]

It's up to you mate, you're free to waste your money.... Have you ever heard that one of the main thing before starting a training is to have a back up plan (except of course if daddy can help you) in case of anything like our massive downturn happens??????

2 good friends of mine just finished their training and are both in your situation... One went back to his dispatcher job and the other to his law firm (he used to negotiate contracts for airlines)... They find it hard but they keep an eye on any opportunity anywhere ...

But in the other hand, as you'll probably never pay back the amount you borrowed... Go ahead, enjoy!

[ewsd02]

Like many things the theory of all newbies refusing to pay for type ratings is sound and admirable, but in practice it probably wouldn't work.

There will always be those who will break ranks when tempted by the possibility of a straight to jets job, and as long as that is the case, there will be companies looking to profit. Its human nature.

Demand for pilots is low, supply is high so you have to bend over and take it in the rear for a job at the moment. However, it won't be like this forever and the time will come when demand for pilots is high, but there are few people in the training system due to the previous lack of jobs. When that happens there won't be any mention of paying for type ratings, so the whole thing is market driven.

[Duck Rogers]

Test test test.

[Flintstone]

Mixmaster.

Clearly we're doomed to agree 'it' is bad but disagree on the fix. I still say the strongest incentive is with the applicants who are best placed to harness that and try to forge some unity. If so many of them are sitting around doing nothing (unlike Bambe's friends) what's to stop them anonymously starting the ball rolling? At the very least they might publicise this sorry state of affairs and prevent someone else getting mired in a year or so. Or is that too idealistic?

Another Old Fogey. Sorry but 'we' are aware of the situation. Read this and other threads and you'll see that some of us have been warning about the folly of buying jobs for years. Your refusal to go a slower career route merely adds to the problem. Even now those of you who are complaining about this state of affairs (and those who got you into it) seem quite happy to do it to those who follow. Think on that.

Nearly There. Nice to see someone with integrity.


PS In marked contrast to this conversation in the Bizjet forum there's a thread where people are beginning to swop ideas on staying afloat and you'd be amazed at how many PM's are exchanged offering help and giving tips on job openings. Another thread where those seeking work can post their CV's. Maybe bizjet pilots are just more pro-active and better at team work? ;)

[techboy]

mistake me If I am wrong but apparently the Ryanair assessment days are full for the next 2-3 months.

WHO HAS THIS MONEY..........

25 guys/girls a time.... all prepared to spend 30k for the NG rating, bonded for 2 years IF you get a job offer....(base and line training)
No Accom or living expenses whilst on the course. No salary whilst on line training, and then work on a reduced salary in the region of 20k for 2 years.
If you take into account that most people have had day jobs in other professions prior to flying.... Loss of earnings!!!!!
Take all this into account and your well past 40k???? Holy Sh*t


As this thread states... This is ridiculous yet these people will still pander to the airlines.....

Airline Pilot, great job..... not if you and your family are living in a shoe box caravan because you had to sell your house to pay for your training and rating....

[EZYramper]

At what point does buying a type rating become unethical?

How about buying a Twin Otter rating, or a Saab 340, PA46, J31, Dash 8?

It was my understanding that people wanting to get into the smaller prop companies usually paid for their own rating to make them more attractive to the operator?

[Flintstone]

EZY.

It used to be only the airlines that people bought their jobs with, now it's filtering down to all sized companies. At least in years to come when you meet a new pilot you can say "Welcome to aviation. Sorry it's f***ed but it was like that when I got here".

Sorry, but some of us tried.

[EZYramper]

I don't think I worded the last post correctly.

I'm not enquiring as to which type rating I can go out and buy guilt-free.

All I'm saying is that it seems like people have been paying for smaller AC type ratings for years, outrage only kicks in now that folk are paying for Airbus and Boeing ratings.

[Flintstone]

No, you worded it correctly and I understood.

This odious practice started with Boeings and Airbuses (ii?). Now because of it those prepared to work their way up are also being threatened.

[clanger32]

You see, I actually think that Flintstone AND Mixmaster have good points. Flintstone and I have locked horns on this previously and I well know his view....correctly in some ways, that it's in the thrall of all of us to stop it.

However, for my money, the way to stop this is for ALL - Wannabes AND current LTCs, TRIs etc - to pull together....if a good percentage of us just refused to pay, AND the LTCs etc just stepped away from the whole training piece, then it would die very quickly....but therein lies the rub of this.

Current LTCs worked hard to get where they are, so why should they give up the extra bunce reward of their hard work? After all they didn't pay to get there, they worked hard. Indeed it is "I'm alright Jack", but it's disengenuous to suggest that this only exists from one side of the argument...

It's also kind of like the chicken/egg thing....did SSTRs crop up because Newbies were prepared to pay for it, or because they LTCs etc allowed it to happen and agreed to train those newbies...

One look through this thread shows how deeply divided the whole piloting community is - and speaking from my 10+ years in senior management, -rather than my shiny new fATPL, it's this that makes it a piece of piss to divide and conquer if you have little morals....

Sad but true.

[MVE]

This idea has only got one chance and that is if the people who lend the money for tr's come to their senses, whether it's to daddy for his re-mortgage or to the individual for the same. Why pay to work? The problem that the Ryanair cadets fail to see is that Ryanair need more cadets to keep the whole thing profitable. If Ryanair didn't get the money from the assessments and training and didn't keep the low paid cadets churning through the mill, they wouldn't make a profit.
I'll give you two predictions,
1. Ryanair in the future will lay off cadets on this contract and keep training new cadets to replace them in order to generate income.
2. The UK IR will declare the Brookfield contract null and void as a self-employed scheme, then Ryanair will be well and truly stuffed.

[Flintstone]

Clanger. You're wrong again.

Nah, just kidding ;) Divide and rule is spot on though and harder times make that easier. I've seen it first hand in other ways and (for the company) it works. It will continue to work for the likes of RYR because the various groups won't come together. Sure the wannabees would love the support of those within RYR but the latter can barely organise themselves for their own benefit let alone for people who don't even work with them. This is why I think the wannabees need to do something for themselves. They got into this mess, it's time to take responsibility and at the very least raise awareness of the situation. They're the smart ones, right? The internet generation? It could all be done anonymously with the somewhat sneaky potential for putting others off. Less competition for those elusive jobs.

I agree with MVE in that RYR may lay off FO's to accomodate the next tranche and I suspect some of the crew within the company fear this too. It's the elephant in the room but whenever it came up before any RYR insiders suddenly lost interest in the conversation. A company that is happy to charge a couple of pounds for a credit card booking and £10 to carry your own duty free on board will have no qualms whatsoever with such a scheme at which point it becomes what many said would never be seen on these shores, 'pay to fly'.

I just hope that anyone considering a career via this route finds PPRuNe, searches and reads these threads. These companies and the training organisations would all have them believe that if they throw enough cash at it they'll go straight to the RH seat. They need to see how it can go wrong before we find ourselves in the same position as Australia in the 90's when upward of 50% of new CPLs never got a job flying and drifted off into the workforce having to do something else.

[IT2Pilot]

Although many people do not agree with the paying for a TR, I paid for a rating a couple of years ago after spending 4-5 months searching for a job, with no response from any airline.

I went to do a TR after a recommendation from my flying school (BFC) following a request for students to be put forward for the course. With no sniff of a job in months, I got something in writing from the airline and went ahead with the training. The five of us, recommended by the training school, that paid for our training ended up in the RHS, working for the airline.

Whilst many people disagree with this, there are far too many people with 250 hr CPL/IRs and no way of distinguishing between them. When the chance of a job comes along after you have already invested £60k, why not pay for a rating? I didn't have a silver spoon...far from it! I worked hard for 8 years to pay for this, and still have massive debits around the £80k mark. I know a couple of people instructing, one of which did his CPL/IR at the same school as me, and the other who went through ATPLs with me. Both had to pay for the instructor course, but do not get criticised for this...at least they are building hours, gaining experience and keeping current.

I think that paying for a rating is here to stay and it does NOT guarantee a job at the end of it - There are a few CTC guys with A320/1 ratings and time on type that were not kept on at the end of last summer in the airline I am now working for. Also, from my TR, of the 6 of us on the course (not including the guys from my training school), 4 are currently out of work and have a jet rating.

A TR does not buy you the job, it just gets your CV read and shows you can bridge the huge void between flying a twin prop and flying a jet.

Any newbees reading this, add the cost of a TR into your training budget! The schools sell flight training to you, but they do not tell you that once you are finished, you are on your own to find a job. Also, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people with the same 250'ish hour CPL & IR qualification going for the same job. You have to make your won luck, which might mean paying for a rating. Harsh, but true.

To answer the other question of "where are all the jobs"...there aren't many out there, and certainly weren't ever enough for the hundreds of people qualifying each year. With XL, Silverjet, and Zoom going bust, and other airlines reducing capacity, the market is flooded with experienced pilots. This means that there is a reduced traditional flow of people from Turboprops to Jet jobs, meaning there are no Turboprop job vacancies being created for the newly qualified guys. Also if you read about a pilot shortage, they actually mean a shortage of suitably qualified people with time on type and experience...the most difficult thing to obtain!

People hate it, but if you can afford it and are guaranteed a job at the end of the course, pay for a rating!

[Bambe]

Poor guy.................................. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: